What is the limit on flirting?

[Jesus_Sandals]

I will admit that I LOVE female martial artists. I would prolly end up flirting with a female in my class, saying things like "This isn't gonna ruin our chances is it?" when I get a girl in a headlock. I want to know from female martial artists what the limit on flirting would be? What would make you feel uncomfortable? Should I even be flirting with the girl students? >.<

Btw you don't have to tell me I'm a bad person... :(

[bushidomartialarts]

that's the challenge, isn't it?

women martial artists are the very best kind of women. they have their heads on straight. they're tough. they're powerful and tend to be educated. they have something important in common with us. plus the extra cardiovascular endurance and flexibility can be rather nice.

but there's something about the dojo that makes flirting and dating kind of...is awkward the right word? i try to discourage dating on the deck. but in the dojo off the deck feels more appropriate.

just my two cents. i ain't even a woman, so i probably shouldn't even have thrown those in.

but i do feel your pain, brother.

[Hand Sword]

From my experiences, women are there to train, just like the men. Flirting doesn't have a place in that setting, so I say don't do it at all. Ultimately it's the safest way to go. Keep the flirting in the clubs and bars.

[Carol]

It's completely out of place on the mat. What is happening isn't really flirting, its a distraction away from class, disrespect to the instructor as well as the people that dedicate their time, money, and energy to training.

People sometimes meet, flirt, date or even get married after getting to know one another in class...the ones that do, should do it on their own time.

[exile]

From my experiences, women are there to train, just like the men. Flirting doesn't have a place in that setting, so I say don't do it at all. Ultimately it's the safest way to go. Keep the flirting in the clubs and bars.


It's completely out of place on the mat. What is happening isn't really flirting, its a distraction away from class, disrespect to the instructor as well as the people that dedicate their time, money, and energy to training.

People sometimes meet, flirt, date or even get married after getting to know one another in class...the ones that do, should do it on their own time.

These posts say it all, IMO. I think it's a very bad mix.

[wade]

Years ago I had a young female come into my office. When I told her she was going to be tested for her first belt rank her response was "oh great, does this mean I have to date you too". To say I was shocked was an understatement. I have been approached a number of times by female students because of my rank and my status but never, ever, do I even think of acting on this. It is a gross misuse of power and authority. I called in her instructor and lets just say he has never worked for me since then. She, on the other hand did stay around till she got her black belt. Oh yeah, also her husband and 2 daughters did also. So, don't do.....don't even think about it. You will always be reading about people who acted and didn't think, don't be one of those.

[Jonathan Randall]

Years ago I had a young female come into my office. When I told her she was going to be tested for her first belt rank her response was "oh great, does this mean I have to date you too". To say I was shocked was an understatement. I have been approached a number of times by female students because of my rank and my status but never, ever, do I even think of acting on this. It is a gross misuse of power and authority. I called in her instructor and lets just say he has never worked for me since then. She, on the other hand did stay around till she got her black belt. Oh yeah, also her husband and 2 daughters did also. So, don't do.....don't even think about it. You will always be reading about people who acted and didn't think, don't be one of those.

Hard to add to that and the other great posts.

So many women (young and old) have been driven out of the Martial Arts over the years due to being hit up on constantly on the mat (and off) that we, as a group, are so much poorer. OTOH, I ran into a dojang classmate at the mall where we both worked (at different stores) when I was a teen and we ended up spending that afternoon (and many others) together. Big difference, though.

[wade]

Thank you Jonathon, it is a very big difference.

[Adept]

Flirting is supposed to be fun. If it isn't fun, and either you or the other person feels awkward, then don't do it.

[LawDog]

I have zero tolerance for flirting inside the dojo or while at our organiztions events. During the early 90's I started to lose female students. While at a local mall I ran into a female who left the school. During our conversation I asked why she left, she stated that a senior instructor was flirting with all of the females during class and that he was a little touchy feely while making corrections. The next day he was gone. Since then almost half of my class are female students, many are long term.
An affiliate school had a similary situation, he had a female instructor who was very aggressive. She liked other females, she drove out many females. My friend had to remove her from the school.
I have a three to five foot rule, unless demonstrating a technique all instructors, male / female, should stay three to five foot away from students.
Outside of the dojo sphere, who am I to say.

[Drac]

You will always be reading about people who acted and didn't think, don't be one of those.

Well said Wade..

[Shaderon]

I feel that "messing about" if the situation dictates it's ok is fine... but flirting in the Dojo/Dojang is definately a no no.

By messing about, I mean like a situation that I had with another student a while back, we were supposed to partner up and the instructor changed his mind and swapped us about, this student then said to me, "Awh we've not partnered for ages I miss you" and laughed, to me this wasn't flirting, it was a genuine wish to partner me because of other reasons, but someone else did construe it as such and questioned it with me later (in a friendly "is there something going on?" way which I squashed immediately).

Sometimes a few of us mess about flirting in play outside the Dojang, (extreemly subtley and carefully when it comes to the higher ranks) but inside I view it as a no-gender situation, we are all martial artists, everything must be all above board and open. We are there to learn, not for our own personal interests and flirting in class, especially between different ranks, is an abuse of responsibilty.

If a male in my class flirted with me, I'd give him a brick wall "I've not noticed that and never will" response in class, if it persisted I'd try and get him outside class and have a chat about it.

[Sukerkin]

I have to agree that flirting during training is an unwarranted distraction, as the excellent posts above have described so well.

Of course, to put a counter point in, it all depends on the individuals involved, some people are just naturally flirtaceous and are very good at it, being able to compliment and make someone feel good about themselves without it crossing any social boundaries whatsoever.

I do concur tho' that it is better to just not run the risk of offending anyone; after all, reigi is a central part of many arts, so it's good practice at keeping your feet out of your mouth and your hands to yourself :D.

But there's no need to be too paranoid about it either. If a fellow (female) student is looking pretty today, I have no qualms about telling her so during a break ... then again, that's not really the type of 'flirting' we're talking about here is it? That's just passing a compliment rather than being a precursor to something else.

That'll teach me to hurriedly run off at the keyboard when I should be working ... note to self, think things through a little deeper rather than just typing faster :lol:.

Bye ... runs off back to the safety of UNIX and power control systems databases ...

[Sukerkin]

Sometimes a few of us mess about flirting in play outside the Dojang, (extreemly subtley and carefully when it comes to the higher ranks) but inside I view it as a no-gender situation, we are all martial artists, everything must be all above board and open. We are there to learn, not for our own personal interests and flirting in class, especially between different ranks, is an abuse of responsibilty.

:applause:

Great post, Shaderon, I've snipped out the bit I felt made the point very well indeed (I bolded the sentence I may well steal if I ever have to discuss this in a real life situation :D).

[Shaderon]

:applause:

Great post, Shaderon, I've snipped out the bit I felt made the point very well indeed (I bolded the sentence I may well steal if I ever have to discuss this in a real life situation :D).

Welcome Sukerkin, steal away, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery... or is that flirting? heehee :ladysman:

[Brian R. VanCise]

Enjoy your training but keep the flirting off the mats. People both men and women come to a Training Hall to train and learn skills in personal protection not to date.

[Tarot]

I will admit that I LOVE female martial artists. I would prolly end up flirting with a female in my class, saying things like "This isn't gonna ruin our chances is it?" when I get a girl in a headlock.

Wow. Completely out of line. I probably wouldn't work with you again after such a comment. My husband trains with me, and if he would have heard it, chances are your next headlock might not be so pleasent. ;)

Seriously though, in a world where females are the minority, saying stuff like that is just not appropriate behavior. Women are supposed to feel comfortable and welcomed at the dojo. Not like they are on display and the dudes can't get past the boobage.

I would start checking that stuff at the door. You don't want to wind up in a situation where the instructor has to speak with you about why the women don't want to work with you anymore.

[shesulsa]

Leave the flirting off the mat and out of the dojang. I've seen more students at our school lost because of this than any other reason.

There's an ooooooooold saying which I'll paraphrase because of the profanity:

"Do not excrete feces where you consume food."

Got it?

[Lisa]

Wow. Completely out of line. I probably wouldn't work with you again after such a comment. My husband trains with me, and if he would have heard it, chances are your next headlock might not be so pleasent. ;)

Seriously though, in a world where females are the minority, saying stuff like that is just not appropriate behavior. Women are supposed to feel comfortable and welcomed at the dojo. Not like they are on display and the dudes can't get past the boobage.

I would start checking that stuff at the door. You don't want to wind up in a situation where the instructor has to speak with you about why the women don't want to work with you anymore.

Well said Tarot!

Jesus, you say you LOVE female martial artists, well the best way, IMNSHO, to show truth to that statement is to show them respect. Respect their abilities, respect what they can teach you and respect the simple boundaries of training together and keep the training to training, not to flirting or as Tarot pointed out, it could end up bad for you in the end.

[RachelK]

Yeah, I totally agree with what's been said. Leave the flirting for outside class. If you want to flirt, then ask your fellow student out for coffee or something.

That said, I'm sure if one of my classmates told me I looked pretty, I'd just say thank you and probably would be flattered. So maybe I'm a hypercrite. However, I wouldn't have tolerance for much more flirting than that, even if I liked the guy a lot.

Fortunately, this has never been an issue for me. There seems to be an inverse ratio of martial skill to perceived attractiveness of women. The more skilled the female, the less attractive she is to the men. The female beginners are always more popular than the advanced women. I know there are guys out there who don't mind that a woman can kick their ass, but in my experience, they're pretty rare. I think my being more experienced than most of the guys puts me in a no-flirt category. Although there was one new guy who was pretty aggressive with me, trying to take me by surprise and so forth, and I gave him a pretty good beating. I thought he'd be annoyed by that, but after class, to my surprise, he asked me out on a date.

I have no problem with flirting before or after class (my style is not a formal one), just not during the actual training period - it's too important to waste time with that sort of thing.

[stickarts]

Treating everyone respectfully is top priority in our school. Nope, no flirting between students, and especially not between instructor and student.
It needs to be a professional and comfortable atmosphere.
Thats our approach.

[Shuto]

Yeah,
There seems to be an inverse ratio of martial skill to perceived attractiveness of women. The more skilled the female, the less attractive she is to the men.

I find that interesting. Some men have issues with women who make more $ than them as well. I wonder if it's connected.

My wife and I were both pleased to hear our 13 yr old son say that if he ever gets a girlfriend, it would most likely be one who takes Martial Arts. He claims that the females at his school are too absorbed with fashion and make-up for his taste. I will be interested in how this eventually plays out since I often see him associating with females when I pick him up from school. Maybe these are the exceptions. :ladysman:

[Shaderon]

I find that interesting. Some men have issues with women who make more $ than them as well. I wonder if it's connected.

My wife and I were both pleased to hear our 13 yr old son say that if he ever gets a girlfriend, it would most likely be one who takes Martial Arts. He claims that the females at his school are too absorbed with fashion and make-up for his taste. I will be interested in how this eventually plays out since I often see him associating with females when I pick him up from school. Maybe these are the exceptions. :ladysman:

Yep I'm sure it's a macho "I must take care of my woman" type thing.
As for the second paragraph, I've sometimes found that a guy who watches a tough woman on the screen and says she's attractive, prefers a soft dependant type woman as a partner. I can understand it in a way, I guess it's an instinctive thing, but it's certainly a little confusing to those of us who are tough chicks to get admired then rejected.

[Shuto]

As for the second paragraph, I've sometimes found that a guy who watches a tough woman on the screen and says she's attractive, prefers a soft dependant type woman as a partner.

I didn't take his statement to be an endorsement of martial women as much as a rejection of the other. He has just begun his journey into manhood, however, and a lot can change in a very short time. As I said, I'm interested in seeing how all this plays out.

edit

Of course, his mother is taking MA as well and men always marry their mothers... right?

[FearlessFreep]

Fortunately, this has never been an issue for me. There seems to be an inverse ratio of martial skill to perceived attractiveness of women. The more skilled the female, the less attractive she is to the men

Actually, I think what it is is that a skilled woman is seen as an 'equal' if you will. An unskilled woman is 'a woman who must be protected' as sorta a built in response that men have to women. However, as woman gets more skilled she goes from being 'defensless woman' to 'equal', 'partner' etc...

I would guess that some men do feel their egos threatened by a woman who is better than tham, but I would hope that most women share my view that a skilled woman is a fellow in the art, to be respected for what they have accomplished, listened to for experience, and befriended for sharing a comman journey.

[Kacey]

I have to agree with the previous posters who say keep it off the mat. There are plenty of social occasions related to MA (after testing or tournament celebrations, holiday parties if you have those, etc.), or chances to talk before or after class - but as has been said, women, like men, go to their MA class to train (or mostly; there are exceptions to everything - for both genders), and while being complimented or otherwise flirted with is rarely offensive, it is distracting from the purpose of the class.

As Wade has pointed out, it is never appropriate for an instructor to flirt with students - that way lies way too many potential problems, for either gender, and the repercussions often spread far wider than the people who are personally involved. However, what students do together outside of class is no one's business but their own - as long as it stays outside of class.

[KenpoGunz]

"What is the limit on flirting?"

THERE ARE NO LIMITS! :rofl:

Oh wait, in the dojo you say. Well that is a little different. You see the almighty boot to the jewels will keep order.

Seriously though, It's not the best idea.

[Tarot]

Of course, his mother is taking MA as well and men always marry their mothers... right?

Ew.

[RachelK]

As for the second paragraph, I've sometimes found that a guy who watches a tough woman on the screen and says she's attractive, prefers a soft dependant type woman as a partner. I can understand it in a way, I guess it's an instinctive thing, but it's certainly a little confusing to those of us who are tough chicks to get admired then rejected.Yeah, it's one of life's great ironies that most of the men who admire those kickass action-adventure chicks like Lucy Liu, Lucy Lawless, and Angelina Jolie would not find the same qualities appealing in a real-life date. (I mean, the kickass qualities, not the beauty). There are a few exceptions but in my region, it just seems like there are all too few. In martial arts class, the new girls are usually more prettied-up and with more of a "help me, kind sir" attitude, and I guess most guys like to feel as if they are helping the woman. I suppose it's a threat to their masculinity or something to have a woman wiping the floor with them. All I can say is I'm glad I'm not a man so I don't have these complicated issues. Anyone who kicks my ass gets my respect, and I don't feel my womanhood threatened in the slightest bit by their gender.
Again, I'm not stereotyping about all guys, just about 80% of those I happen to meet.
-Rachel

[Shuto]

In martial arts class, the new girls are usually more prettied-up and with more of a "help me, kind sir" attitude, and I guess most guys like to feel as if they are helping the woman. -Rachel

Interesting. My limited experience is quite different. There are a few women like you describe in our dojo but I don't know of anyone, male or female, who wants to work with them. They kinda stick with themselves whenever possible.

[BrandiJo]

Flirting really has no place in a dojo, personaly i go there to train, and with some of the more compermising things sometimes done i would be very uncomfortable working with a guy who i felt was flirting with me. After class or outside of class might be more acceptable but i really would avoid it unless you where feeling some serious chemistry

[jks9199]

Just to echo & reinforce...

I don't see any room for flirting in the dojo/training hall. I don't care if you're boyfriend/girlfriend, married or whatever -- in class, you're students. Leave everything else outside.

And I know of more than one case where inappropiate relationships between students caused all sorts of disruption...

[exile]

Believe me, it's not just a problem for the teacher/learner situation in a MA school. My university has just spent a year or two drafting a set of policies, with the intent of very strictly enforcing them, to block sexual/romantic relations between instructors and students, on the extremely realistic grounds that in such situations everyone's integrity winds up being compromised, and the power differential between the two parties is such that the situation constitutes a massive abuse of authority and responsibility.

Let's go back to the original poster's conception of `flirting' :

I will admit that I LOVE female martial artists. I would prolly end up flirting with a female in my class, saying things like "This isn't gonna ruin our chances is it?" when I get a girl in a headlock.

Lemme change it accordingly:

I will admit that I LOVE female undergraduates I would prolly end up flirting with a female in my class, saying things like "This isn't gonna ruin our chances is it?" when I give a girl a C- on an exam.

Pretty creepy, no?

[RachelK]

Well, the original poster didn't say he is an instructor so no, it's not quite as creepy. Just inappropriate. There isn't the same power differentials, though.
I have no problem with professors and students dating so long as that student never, ever takes the professor's class. Since it's impossible to enforce that, it's probably easier just to ban all professor-student relationships. Still, some might perceive that as draconian measure.
We all agree that you shouldn't date coworkers, teachers, and classmates, but I'm sure most of us spend a huge chunk of our time at work, martial arts class, or school. I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I don't think it's necessary to restrict yourself from ever dating anyone you meet at work, school, or martial arts class - that leaves very few available people. I just think it's necessary to exercise some morality, don't date someone who is in a position of authority over you or someone whose work you oversee, and don't let romantic interaction take place when you're supposed to be training, teaching, working, or studying.
Just my $0.02.
-Rachel

[exile]

Well, the original poster didn't say he is an instructor so no, it's not quite as creepy. Just inappropriate. There isn't the same power differentials, though.
I have no problem with professors and students dating so long as that student never, ever takes the professor's class.

This is the way our policy is framed. Obviously, no one can (or wants to) ban relationships between students (again, the exception being when one student is in an instructor role wrt another student). Same with faculty/faculty relations, though here it's a little trickier, because of the tenure/tenuring power issue. The bottom line is, you don't want relationships between people between whom there's a major power divide.


Since it's impossible to enforce that, it's probably easier just to ban all professor-student relationships. Still, some might perceive that as draconian measure.

We don't outright sanction, but we do discourage, relationships between faculty members and students who aren't in their classes or in an advisee or other sensitive relationship to in the same department—not on the basis of abstract considerations, but from long-term experience. The messes that have occurred as a result of such relationships gone sour is unbelievable.


We all agree that you shouldn't date coworkers, teachers, and classmates, but I'm sure most of us spend a huge chunk of our time at work, martial arts class, or school. I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I don't think it's necessary to restrict yourself from ever dating anyone you meet at work, school, or martial arts class - that leaves very few available people. I just think it's necessary to exercise some morality, don't date someone who is in a position of authority over you or someone whose work you oversee, and don't let romantic interaction take place when you're supposed to be training, teaching, working, or studying.
Just my $0.02.
-Rachel

That's worth a lot more than $.02 in my book! And it really is the core idea of not just our code, but of the policies of an increasing number of academic institutions, for just those reasons. But even if the original poster isn't an instructor—and yes, you're right, I may have jumped incorrectly to that conclusion—the relationship between a senior student and a more junior student in an MA class is different in a certain way from that between a fourth-year graduate student and a first or second-year graduate student in a math department, say—in MA schools, from what I've seen, senior students have much more of an aura of authority wrt to junior student than in a university math department. If the instructor can't make it, for whatever reason, the senior students may well lead the class, and you bow and snap to attention to them just as you would the instructor were s/he present. This never happens in a normal university department situation. So a more advanced MA student, in my view, shares in Wade's wise prohibition on romantic overtures (or thinly disguised versions!) from instructors to students, so far as more junior students are concerned... that's just my $.02 :)

[Laurentkd]

Yeah, I totally agree with what's been said. Leave the flirting for outside class. If you want to flirt, then ask your fellow student out for coffee or something.

That said, I'm sure if one of my classmates told me I looked pretty, I'd just say thank you and probably would be flattered. So maybe I'm a hypercrite. However, I wouldn't have tolerance for much more flirting than that, even if I liked the guy a lot.

Fortunately, this has never been an issue for me. There seems to be an inverse ratio of martial skill to perceived attractiveness of women. The more skilled the female, the less attractive she is to the men. The female beginners are always more popular than the advanced women.

I completely agree- no flirting in the school, and no flirting between instructors and students ever (I have just seen it fail to many times and it always ends up with someone quitting- which is never good).

However, I feel a little different about the skills to attractiveness. I have found that BEGINNING men are often the ones that are flirting with (or at least eyeing) the advanced women. For some reason, I think seeing a girl that can do what they want to do is attractive (and if I had a quarter for every "flexibility" comment I have heard I would have a whole lot of quarters!). But as these guys are around awhile longer I think they begin to respect women of higher rank as examples and instructors and figure out that flirting isn't going to get them anywhere.

[kicksindabank]

an interesting question? things that make you go mmmmmm.

[Empty Hands]

and if I had a quarter for every "flexibility" comment I have heard I would have a whole lot of quarters!

Hey, I make flexibility comments to the flexible GUYS too! :D

[Adept]

Treating everyone respectfully is top priority in our school.

It needs to be a professional and comfortable atmosphere.
Thats our approach.

That doesn't necessarily preclude flirting though. As I said earlier, flirting is simply having fun, and enjoying being in another persons presence. It doesn't have to be overtly creepy, and if it is making anyone uncomfortable or awkward, then by definition it isn't flirting any more.


Saying something "mildly mean" because you "pick on girls that are kickass" is a rotten way of letting a girl know you like her, and a horrible way to start a relationship.

It all depends on the context. Gentle teasing is often a good way to break the ice and begin a conversation with someone.

One time I saw a girl drop off some friends out the front of the club that I work at. When she went to drive off to park the car, she 'bunny-hopped' halfway down the road. When she got back, I asked her "Been driving long?" which is technically something mean, but my demeanour made it obvious I wasn't trying to be hurtful and she took it as the joke it was intended.

Context is everything!

[Sukerkin]

Nice points, Adept :tup:.

The first one I attemted to make myself but came at it so tangentially that I missed :D. You said it much better.

The second one is something I thought to myself but never committed to the page (mostly because I was heading out the door to iaido :)).

What the much castigated young chap described could be contexturally at any level from good-natured, mutual, banter to something rather horridly over-aggressive.

Without more information we can't really judge.

However, I still feel that Kempoka's advice was the most sound you could squeeze out of one sentence (and would apply whatever the context) :D.

[stickarts]

That doesn't necessarily preclude flirting though. As I said earlier, flirting is simply having fun, and enjoying being in another persons presence. It doesn't have to be overtly creepy, and if it is making anyone uncomfortable or awkward, then by definition it isn't flirting any more.



It all depends on the context. Gentle teasing is often a good way to break the ice and begin a conversation with someone.

One time I saw a girl drop off some friends out the front of the club that I work at. When she went to drive off to park the car, she 'bunny-hopped' halfway down the road. When she got back, I asked her "Been driving long?" which is technically something mean, but my demeanour made it obvious I wasn't trying to be hurtful and she took it as the joke it was intended.

Context is everything!

I understand what you are saying.
Since we have opened our school in 1993 I have had the opportunity to train and have conversation with many hundreds of our students. The vast majority of women expect to be taken seriously and are offended by flirting in the classroom. You may be defining flirting differently than I am. By flirting or disrespectful, I am talking about the perception that they are being hit on, conversation with sexual undertones, or a condescending, teasing, or patronizing tone because of their gender.
We definately have fun in our classes. but the expectation is that it will be done in a respectful manner to all.
As the school owner, I need to be certain that all conduct is appropriate. It's my job to take everyone's best interest into account and my students know that I take this responsibility very seriously.

[Adept]

By flirting or disrespectful, I am talking about the perception that they are being hit on, conversation with sexual undertones, or a condescending, teasing, or patronizing tone because of their gender.

Hitting on someone is very different to flirting with them. Condescension and patronisation likewise are not. Teasing can be, but only if it is gentle and no one takes offence.

[Last Fearner]

Definition time: "flirt v. 1. To make playfully romantic or sexual overtures." (American Heritage Dictionary, 2000)


Every person (male or female) is going to have their own personal boundaries as to flirting depending on who is flirting, when and where, to what level of flirtation (how graphic), and if they even like flirtation at all.

With all respects to the female's response to this question, the bigger issue is what are the rules of the dojang. There have been varying opinions offered here by instructors, school owners, and female students. Mostly negative about flirting in the school, but varying to degrees when not in class. If your instructor allows a more lax behavior, you still should have the mutual consent of the female, and you never know unless you ask if they mind, or if you flirt and get a response.

The problem is, they might feel too embarrassed, or intimidated (especially if you are a Black Belt or senior rank), and this is unfair to them. They might quit without confrontation, and this is not fair to the school owner. Other students might see the flirtation, and feel it is inappropriate, and be uncomfortable, even if the intended female is not offended. This spreads a bad reputation about Taekwondo Black Belts which is unfair to the entire Taekwondo community.

"What is the limit on flirting?"

My policy is that flirting (romantic or sexual overtures of any kind) are not permitted. My Dojang is a Martial Art training hall - - not a dating service nor pick-up bar. Regardless if you think the female likes it, if I don't like it - you better not do it in my school! This means not on the mat, not anywhere in the Dojang, nor at any sanctioned events. You come to class to train or don't come at all. Get your priorities straight, focus on your training, and be mature.

My wife was a student of mine, and became a 3rd Dan instructor. From white belt to Black Belt, there was no flirtation in the classroom. I would not agree to date her until she became a Black Belt. Now we are married with three children.

When the subject of gaining a girls interests cross your mind, remember this. Be nice to the girls, and you will attract nice girls. Work on improving your manners, and being a better person, and the girls will like you for who you are, not because you flirt. Become a friend first, and don't bother trying to break the ice with a "one-liner" or teasing. This shows a lack of self confidence and shows disrespect for the girl. Be honest, be kind, and be a good friend.

When you stop chasing women, you might find that more of them are willing to chase you. Just keep that out of the Dojang, and other inappropriate places, then you will do fine. If you are a Taekwondo Black Belt, then act like one. What you have described here is not Black Belt behavior.

No bad reps from me. Just, hopefully, some advice that you will take to heart.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

[exile]

If I may suggest:

first return to the original post and thoughts there and bring this thread back on topic.

Good idea, tshadowchaser. So let's try this...

I have seen that virtually every one of the `good faith' posts comes down hard (mostly very hard) on the idea of serious romantic overtures between students in MA school, and flatly bans any such overtures between instructors and students. And excellent reasons and illustrations are provided in abundance. There's some equivocation about the `shadowland' area—what's been called `attention without intention'—but the gist seems to be, best to err on the side of caution and if there's any question at all about it, leave it out.

I haven't noticed a single post that says that serious flirting is a good thing, that there's any reason to encourage it, etc. I figure if there were such a reason, someone would have argued on its behalf. So it seems to me as if a kind of consensus has been reached, or better, maybe, that this was the consensus all along, and that the only reason it came up in the first place was because the ex-member troll who started the thread in the first place figured it would be something good to annoy us with.

So maybe there really isn't much more to say about the thread topic and it can be safely retired?

[Brian R. VanCise]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MT Senior Moderator-

[kenposikh]

Hi sorry to jump in so late,

My take is and always will be very simple you don't do it, here in the UK there are too few female martial artisits as it is and flirting whilst training is totally out of order.

As an instructor doubly so you just don't do it it affects your fellow students the reputation of your school and your instructor.

So simply put if you all meet up for a drink afterwards casual chat and be friends that's the best way to start any relationship.

Amrik

[Just4Kicks]

I feel very uncomfortable with any overtures of any sort in the class, with MA we come into close contact and some of the positions are compromising and I find it creepy. Especially if it was an instructor as they are in a position of trust.

Senior belts really should just be nice, and wait for the target to reach a senior level too before pursuing.

And the comment about puting a girl in a headlock and saying that is completely inappropriate. Its condescending and just stupid. I'm there to learn, not suffer corny pick up lines. A good kick might be in order at next opportunity.

[IcemanSK]

I feel very uncomfortable with any overtures of any sort in the class, with MA we come into close contact and some of the positions are compromising and I find it creepy. Especially if it was an instructor as they are in a position of trust.

Senior belts really should just be nice, and wait for the target to reach a senior level too before pursuing.

And the comment about puting a girl in a headlock and saying that is completely inappropriate. Its condescending and just stupid. I'm there to learn, not suffer corny pick up lines. A good kick might be in order at next opportunity.

Wow, that doesn't sound good: but I know what you mean. Perhaps, "person of interest" is a better term. Personally, I don't think dating folks at the training hall is a good idea.

[CoryKS]

Okay, so the consensus seems to be that flirting/dating in the doj[o|ang] is a bad thing. How do we square this with popular dating theory, which says that one should join groups or participate in activities in which they have an interest in order to find someone who shares that interest?

I'm not suggesting that the training deck should be for anything other than training. But given the scenario that one is a single martial artist looking for someone who also trains (or at least understands the need to train), what alternative methods can be employed in order to keep unwanted attention off the mats?

[jks9199]

Okay, so the consensus seems to be that flirting/dating in the doj[o|ang] is a bad thing. How do we square this with popular dating theory, which says that one should join groups or participate in activities in which they have an interest in order to find someone who shares that interest?

I'm not suggesting that the training deck should be for anything other than training. But given the scenario that one is a single martial artist looking for someone who also trains (or at least understands the need to train), what alternative methods can be employed in order to keep unwanted attention off the mats?
It's simple...

Keep it OUTSIDE the school.

And there should be parity in the relationship. I think that it's a potentially very problematic situation if an instructor starts dating a student; I've seen things get very messy that way. Two students... Go for it, outside the school. Two instructors... have fun, but keep it out of the school.

Have a cup of tea or coffee (or even adult beverages, if appropriate and both are of age) AFTER class. But during class? There shouldn't be time or room!

One more thing...

NO means NO. And both the "pursuer" an "pursuee" have to understand that. Skip the coy "I don't know..." games. Be honest with each other, and if the answer is "not interested", accept that.

[Sukerkin]

Be honest with each other, and if the answer is "not interested", accept that.

All round good post there jks. That last point deserved highlighting tho' as being especially applicable.

[Laurentkd]

It's simple...

Keep it OUTSIDE the school.

And there should be parity in the relationship. I think that it's a potentially very problematic situation if an instructor starts dating a student; I've seen things get very messy that way. Two students... Go for it, outside the school. Two instructors... have fun, but keep it out of the school.

Have a cup of tea or coffee (or even adult beverages, if appropriate and both are of age) AFTER class. But during class? There shouldn't be time or room!

One more thing...

NO means NO. And both the "pursuer" an "pursuee" have to understand that. Skip the coy "I don't know..." games. Be honest with each other, and if the answer is "not interested", accept that.

I think this is the biggest part. Guys (sorry, that's been my only experience) that try to hit on girls INSIDE the school leads to no one liking the guy, and several new students not continuing because of him.
However, I have one success story. Two students, both young 20's began dating (both were black belts, she a 2nd dan, he a 1st). I knew they were dating because I am roommates with the gal, but anyone who only saw them inside the school would have NO CLUE they were dating! I don't know how they managed it, but they kept it completly outside the school. There were no goo-goo eyes, no running to be partners, no banter, no flirting, NOTHING! I thought it was very impressive and left everyone (including themselves) focused on martial arts.
They are now engaged to be married in November!

Now, if they had had a nasty break-up I don't know what would have happened... I am guessing it would be hard to continue training together. We have had one couple who trained together get divorced, and (while slowly) they both ended up quitting.
I don't think it can work most of the time, but I thought I would share this success story. And I truely believe it worked because it was kept outside the school (students are still suprised to hear they were engaged. "we didn't even know they were dating!"). I just think it is really cool they were so considerate and respectful of both eachother and everyone else.

[Carol]

Okay, so the consensus seems to be that flirting/dating in the doj[o|ang] is a bad thing. How do we square this with popular dating theory, which says that one should join groups or participate in activities in which they have an interest in order to find someone who shares that interest?

I'm not suggesting that the training deck should be for anything other than training. But given the scenario that one is a single martial artist looking for someone who also trains (or at least understands the need to train), what alternative methods can be employed in order to keep unwanted attention off the mats?

I'd have no problem at all with a fellow approaching me after class and asking me out for a cup of coffee. It's something simple and conducive to good conversation...and it keeps the socializing out of school.

[Cryozombie]

I'm not suggesting that the training deck should be for anything other than training. But given the scenario that one is a single martial artist looking for someone who also trains (or at least understands the need to train), what alternative methods can be employed in order to keep unwanted attention off the mats?

Bob used to have links here to a martial arts dating service.

:D

[bluemtn]

I think (like Carol said) that after class is fine- cup of coffee, or something just as simple, non committal. If things go further later- that's something else. Not bad or good, but does depend on each individual involved.

[foggymorning162]

I will admit that I LOVE female martial artists. I would prolly end up flirting with a female in my class, saying things like "This isn't gonna ruin our chances is it?" when I get a girl in a headlock. I want to know from female martial artists what the limit on flirting would be? What would make you feel uncomfortable? Should I even be flirting with the girl students? >.<

Btw you don't have to tell me I'm a bad person... :(

There is a differance between flirting and "hitting on someone" I think if you have a comfortable relationship with a fellow student flirting isn't a big deal if it's just friendly joking around but if your talking about hitting on a fellow student. I wouldn't go there if I were you, it just causes awkward situations that make everybody uncomfortable. But like I said a little harmless joking around is OK just make sure she's comfortable with it

[Product of Pearl]

It is ill-advised in our dojo, but I have seen it happen and seen the negative effects it has. It leaves your business open for gossip, bad reputations, decreased client base, and students that wont take you seriously or look at you as a professional. It disturbs the client/teacher relationship and the student views you as being just another jock or slimeball or whatever he or she thinks at that time. It takes away from the training atmosphere and causes people to become too distracted. The dojo should be a santuary not a pick-up joint. Women get hit on everywhere they go. You get more respect when you offer them a break from it.

[Odin]

I'd have no problem at all with a fellow approaching me after class and asking me out for a cup of coffee. It's something simple and conducive to good conversation...and it keeps the socializing out of school.

See i disagree, in my thai boxing class i think its good to have a laugh and a joke while in class, it helps break the tension when two people are sparing, its very easy for things to turn sour when to guys are going toe to toe, a bit of socializing there and then can help diffuse a situation that someone could brew up for the rest of the class, there are times when i have caught people quite hard while sparrign and by making a joke out of it they know there was no malice behind it.

As for flirting in class, I'll be honest i can be a flirt but then again its on the person that im training with, I know girls in my class that will get offended if i dont show the up most concentration while sparring with them.,,,and on the otherside i know girls in my class that flirt with me while sparring.

I would just take it all on the charater of the person you are training with.

[jks9199]

See i disagree, in my thai boxing class i think its good to have a laugh and a joke while in class, it helps break the tension when two people are sparing, its very easy for things to turn sour when to guys are going toe to toe, a bit of socializing there and then can help diffuse a situation that someone could brew up for the rest of the class, there are times when i have caught people quite hard while sparrign and by making a joke out of it they know there was no malice behind it.

As for flirting in class, I'll be honest i can be a flirt but then again its on the person that im training with, I know girls in my class that will get offended if i dont show the up most concentration while sparring with them.,,,and on the otherside i know girls in my class that flirt with me while sparring.

I would just take it all on the charater of the person you are training with.
There's a difference between communicating between training partners, which can include some joking or socializing, and flirting. I expect my students to focus on their training in class; it's OK to chat a (very) little or to talk with a training partner about the exercise, but that's where it should stop during class.

Flirting has no place in class, whatever the mix (teacher/student, teacher/teacher, student/student). Save it for after class, and keep it off the training floor. It's not conducive to focused, good training; in fact, it's actively disruptive.

[Odin]

There's a difference between communicating between training partners, which can include some joking or socializing, and flirting. I expect my students to focus on their training in class; it's OK to chat a (very) little or to talk with a training partner about the exercise, but that's where it should stop during class.

Flirting has no place in class, whatever the mix (teacher/student, teacher/teacher, student/student). Save it for after class, and keep it off the training floor. It's not conducive to focused, good training; in fact, it's actively disruptive.

Exactly which is why the first paragraph of my post addressed the socializing and the second the flirting. ( :

There is however a difference between a suttle bit of flirting now and again and being a total sex pest....each which warrants too very different kinds of repsonse.

[Jdokan]

Zero tolerance!!!!!!!!!!!!
In any business keep it business......simple......
How many times has it played out to be benificial to the school or persons involved...Typically you lose the person as a friend and student.....

[Odin]

I just wanted to say aswell that as much as we are students we are not children, and things like flirting will always happen in a mixed group of people regardless of whats happening around us, its just up to us as adults how we handle the situation.

[Lynne]

I was a little worried about this issue when I began training. I am married but I don't wear my wedding rings to class. However, my husband and I both had been watching my daughter in the Dojang, so most everyone knows I am married. In addition, most men in the Dojang around my age are married, too. I haven't had any problems at all. I am friendly towards people, male and female, and sometimes worry that a male might think I am flirting when I'm just saying, "Hi. How are you? Congratulations on your orange belt."

If I were single, I would definitely be upset if men were actually "hitting" on me in class. If it were an instructor, I'd be hurt and angry. If I were younger, I'd probably just leave the Dojang. As a mature woman, I would talk to the owner. Light teasing or flirting would be fine. (Oh, I'd be steamed if someone were hitting on me knowing I'm married in case I didn't make that clear :D )

And teasing isn't always flirting. My classmates and I are more like family.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

What is the limit on flirting? There is none!

Life is nothing more than an ongoing stream of sexual conquests, and the studio is just another target rich field of opportunities.












*whew* Got that little bit of insincere, anti-social creative writing out of my system.

[Lynne]

What is the limit on flirting? There is none!

Life is nothing more than an ongoing stream of sexual conquests, and the studio is just another target rich field of opportunities.












*whew* Got that little bit of insincere, anti-social creative writing out of my system.

That's ok, we understand. You're from California :D

[Monadnock]

No fishing in the dojo pool.

[Balrog]

It is natural for folks to flirt. Unfortunately, it's a dying art because nowadays, people are being taught that flirting is sexual harassment.

As instructors, it's natural to have students flirt with us. We can flirt back as long as we keep it on a professional basis. Once it goes beyond that, there are issues. As instructors, we sometimes have to touch a student to make an adjustment. I teach my trainees to always approach from the front and make the correction at arm's length. If you are correcting a foot position, use your foot - don't put your hands on the student's legs. Don't put your arms around a student unless you are teaching an escape from a bearhug and if you are, ask permission from them before grabbing them.

SWMBO and I met through Taekwondo. She was my student and when we started seeing each other, we discussed the problems that entailed. In the school, we are always Mr. X and Mrs. Y and we didn't show any physical affection. When it came time for her to test, I always made sure that there was another instructor from a different school on the panel, and I always took their scores. I made notes on her, but I personally didn't score her. The other instructors noticed this and there has never been an issue of favoritism with her. In fact, we dated for nearly a year before anyone in the school was really aware of it. Now she's a 4th Degree and runs the school with me; everyone thinks we're married. :)

Plain old common sense goes a long, long way.

[RachelK]

It is natural for folks to flirt. Unfortunately, it's a dying art because nowadays, people are being taught that flirting is sexual harassment.
It is not natural for me to flirt. Honestly, it's never been an issue for me, nor have I ever worried about excessive flirting in class. I am not a sociable person. No-one flirts with me during training. I practice a martial art that is extremely close contact but I would not describe that contact as flirtatious. It's necessary for self-defense and I never feel uncomfortable about it. I always assure the new guys not to feel uncomfortable about getting so close to a strange woman.

I suppose, when I am not training but working behind the school counter in the evening, and have come directly from my regular job so my hair is loose, I'm wearing makeup and business casual attire because my office is kinda strict about looking professional, then I guess I encounter the occassional flirtatiousness as I'm assisting the male students with their class tuition or ringing up their beverage purchases, but most people are simply friendly and polite.

I guess I'm making myself sound like an old maid - well, I am 35, perhaps flirting is for the young. But it's more likely that my classmates are not attracted to me - no reason to believe that 20 guys are going to find me so irressistible as to flirt instead of just practicing the drills. I prefer "friendly and courteous" to "flirtatious" anyway, perhaps because I myself am not flirtatious.

[Sukerkin]

Some people are flirtaceous and some people are not, just as with any other human attribute.

Some people even change as they grow older.

In my case, I would never have dreamed of flirting when I was in my 'teens or twenties (and was uncomfortable with being the 'flertee' too) but now I enjoy the affirming social interaction it engenders.

In the dojo tho'? Maybe in an after-training-drink-at-the-pub session but I'm largely in agreement with those that favour excluding it during training. Still, I stand by the thought that there is no harm in complimenting a fellow student on how they are looking - just not in the middle of a clinch :lol:.

The most definite dividing line has to be between 'flirting with' and what our American friends call 'hitting on'. I think perhaps that trying to define that line is what has populated quite a bit of this thread :).

[KEritano]

What's the limit on flirting?

Marriage.

[karate-dragon]

The dojo should be a safe haven for anyone wanting to train. Many women learn martial arts to feel safe and to know they can protect themselves. To have someone pushing that boundary in the dojo is never correct. Flirt out in the parking lot all you want if they don't walk away. But never in the dojo.Disrespectful.

[yumeiko]

me and my guy friends flirt a lot, outside of class, like after it is over. But, I don't think it would turn into anything more than that, at least not for me, because the class is where I escape from outside life, and emotional dramas, i don't want them in the dojo too. In fact, recently a guy that liked me tried to join the class just to impress me, but, it just turned me off, and he is no longer there. we are friends now, but nothing more.