Sparring against Punchers [Archive] - MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

karatekid1975

11-19-2002, 09:12 PM

Hiya all.

I'm going to a tourny on 12/15. There is a lot of "punchers" in my dojang. They will get in on you and just pound away at your vest. I'm a kicker, so I'm useless when this happens.

My question is, what is the best strategies against these type of fighters? Mind you, I do WTF TKD style sparring. No hand contact to the head, and punches are only allowed to the vest. Which is something I'm still getting used to coming from TSD. No take-downs or hits below the belt.

I do have a few good skills in sparring, so I was hoping to use a few of those. 1) I'm flexible. I can kick to the head. 2) I have a lot of power for a chic. And 3) I'm a fairly good front leg kicker.

Thanks in advance.

artful dodger

11-19-2002, 09:53 PM

Throw out a back kick as soon as they begin to charge. By the way, do your sparring rules allow attacks to the back region?
If you are sparring for points, make sure you kick while trying to get away friom their punches as well, so that you can hopefully counteract the points they just scored on you.

T.K
Desiree

TkdWarrior

11-19-2002, 10:01 PM

dont' worry most TKDist can't punch that well :D lol..j/k
the way TkDist r taught makes them use their leg like a hand...
laurie u meant u r looking for drills n combinations??
these tech's r basically quick fix for a time being might not help agianst good punchers(boxers??)...
1. first change ur stance a bit...from typical TKD stance to JKD looking stance(i mean lead hand in front n back hand around ur chin or chest) in L stance of Tkd,
2. don't back down...but go direct linear into ur oppnt(while checking their kicks with ur lead legs)
(PS :normally i prefer circuling my oppnt but it'll take lot of time n effort)
3. never box with boxers ;)
4. fight on ur strength not on ur weankness, but don't forget ur weakness.
any question i'll be glad to answer..
-TkdWarrior-

Marginal

11-19-2002, 10:10 PM

Not really the same sparring situation, but against punchers in general I tend to shift or circle to the side and/or duck a lot. Against a kenpoist, that actually helped since he'd come charging in, I'd duck out of the way of the punches and hit him while he was turing back around. (He tended to overshoot me.) That, or else I'd just side kick him when he was trying to close. That pretty much shut his offense down when he was forced out of punchign range.

Usually if they don't overshoot, I interrupt their combonations with punches of my own ASAP. (Major point at the dojang I trained at over the summer. Don't take "turns" attacking and defending.) After two or three counterhits, they tend to back off into kicking range.

That, and head kicks are at ideal range (for me at least) inside punching range. People don't seem to expect them as much. (Especially after a few punches etc.)

Bagatha

11-19-2002, 11:03 PM

The side kick is your friend.

Hollywood1340

11-19-2002, 11:26 PM

Punching to the Hogul requires one thing, close range. Keep them away, and they can't puch. Rember your combo's. And nothing says you can't punch right back. Also, punches are a straight forward movement
normaly in TKD, try and circle around them.

TKDman

11-20-2002, 12:06 AM

Yea in TKD you are pretty much a mass of jelly once they get inside... lmao. Unless your like me (punch like a maniac and end up getting kicked somehow). Try pushing off with your fists and kicking on the way out.

cali_tkdbruin

11-20-2002, 01:28 AM

Here's my take, maintain distance between yourself and your punching opponent. Don't let yourself get caught up in close quarters and start to mix it up if that's not your strong point. Remember, your legs and kicks are your best friend in sport WTF Taekwondo. Also, don't forget when you are attacked to make good use of your back kick as a defensive technique.

One other piece of advice, judges in WTF Taekwondo look more favorably to awarding points when you make contact with your kicks/feet rather than with your fists. In my experience, if you're throwing and connecting with your kicks you'll be ahead of your puncher opponent. Finally, if you can connect with some head shots using your feet, well, that's the ultimate score. Think AXE kicks...

Good Luck :wink2:

Oh yeah, to answer artful dodger's question about backside shots, in WTF Taekwondo shots to the back region are prohibited.

karatekid1975

11-20-2002, 01:39 AM

Thanks for all your advice :)

TkdWarrior wrote:

<laurie u meant u r looking for drills n combinations??>

Yes, in a way. Maybe good "fakes" or combos some of you might use while sparring punchers.

Cali is right. No back shots either. It happens, but doesn't count or costs you a warning. You are right, cali. My feet are my best friend when I spar. I do punch, but just to "thump" (or push) my opponent away :D

Thanks again, all. Keep'em coming :)

TkdWarrior

11-20-2002, 02:21 AM

"Yes, in a way. Maybe good "fakes" or combos some of you might use while sparring punchers. "
umm well i hav done it much in Full contact sparring so i ended up hitting boxer in thigh while circling aorund him hitting him on back, close to ear :eek:

punch come normally in 1-2 format(like jab n back punch), in WTF No Roundhouse or Hook so u can go bit easy...hav an opp lead to ur oppnt then when he comes move out in V deflecting any punch coming punching then in face or if u wanna use kick then go same but with a skip/slide n hit with ur lead leg(if ur lead leg is rite then hit with rite) this is simple routine which will take u in, give a shot n take u out(just with momentum of ur body)...
it's bad WTF doesn't use much punches otherwise u can connect some good body shot
as most of ppl said side kick will be ur freind... check ur oppnt before kicking... just push ur kick close to ur oppnt knee(not hitting), n then continue hitting him above belt
wat i prefer with side kick is check, side kick then hook all from the lead leg without putting leg down...it's easy to do n u can get some good speed in this combo...
-TkdWarrior-

karatekid1975

11-20-2002, 11:05 AM

TkdWarrior wrote:

<it's bad WTF doesn't use much punches otherwise u can connect some good body shot>

I know. I was so used to using the backfist, because I did Tang Soo Do (where head shots are allowed). I almost always scored with a back fist. I'd fake a kick or something and land a backfist to the head. Now I have to get "un-used" to it LOL.

Thanks again for your help Tkdwarrior :)

white dragon

11-20-2002, 11:37 AM

Under the new WTF rules shots to the back are allowed, as long as they're a certain distance from the spine, the size of the ring has been increased as well. You might be able to use this to your advantage?

I always try to "jam" the guy whenever they get too close to kick then either try to do a push kick or a jump spin side or back kick of them. Also try a cresent kick to their blind side.

artful dodger

11-20-2002, 01:44 PM

Well. if shots to the back aren't allowed then roll on back kicks - at the very least it stops them charging you out of the ring. Just make sure you don't turn your head too far around, use your peripheral, then their target area will be majorly reduced.

TK
Desiree

P.S
Have to agree about the sidekicks, especially if your legs are longer than your opponents.

karatekid1975

11-20-2002, 01:52 PM

Hehehehe, yes I have long legs. I'm only 5'8, but I'm all "leg" LOL. I will definitely try the side kick.

I have another question. What if I "thump" them with a front kick or side kick as soon as "shi-jak" is called? That should keep them at kicking distance long enough for more kicks (points). Or it might suprise them to the point that they don't want to get near me. What do you think, all?

white dragon

11-20-2002, 02:31 PM

I always used to wait for the other guy to do something at the start of a fight, trying to suss them out, it creates a kind of stand off aswell. Now I try and smack the guy right from the start with with either a slip-sidekick or a jump front kick. If you can shaked them from the start it's often enough to swing the match as they'll get cagy about coming into you. Works for me as like you I'm mostly leg ;)

celtic bhoy

11-20-2002, 02:52 PM

If you know you are up against a puncher, be prepared to punch your way out of trouble. Plenty of feints and lateral movement until you can get yourself back in kicking range.

People watch you as much as you watch them. You know they they punch and they know you kick. Do not risk being one dimensional.

Good Luck

KennethKu

11-20-2002, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by karatekid1975

Hehehehe, yes I have long legs. I'm only 5'8, but I'm all "leg" LOL. I will definitely try the side kick.

I have another question. What if I "thump" them with a front kick or side kick as soon as "shi-jak" is called? That should keep them at kicking distance long enough for more kicks (points). Or it might suprise them to the point that they don't want to get near me. What do you think, all?

If you haven't read it yet, I would recommend following Bagatha's advice in her post quoted here. She is an experienced winning competitor whose advice is always a reflection of in depth and extensive technical knowledge as well as real life sparring experience earned in numerous tournys.

Originally posted by Bagatha

Well....Im kinda small, so when at all possible, I try to make the first move very aggressively, to just make the opponent respect my space a little before we really proceed. It changes with everyone. If I am unsure of their reaction, I will do a side kick for safety, but if I feel secure that they will just back up, I will try an axe kick. Sometimes though you know for sure that your going to get spanked no matter what, so you try not to risk opening yourself up as much, and just take advantage of what they give you. But if you think you have a chance, I recommed trying to establish yourself as the dominant person right from go. I think if you get 2 guys both the same age, height, weight, flexibility, and coordination together, sparring is just a big mind game. The one who loses is the one who got intimidated.

TkdWarrior

11-20-2002, 09:07 PM

nother question. What if I "thump" them with a front kick or side kick as soon as "shi-jak" is called? That should keep them at kicking distance long enough for more kicks (points). Or it might suprise them to the point that they don't want to get near me. What do you think, all?
technically speaking that would reward u as "Shock points" ..;)
i asked the same question "why after sheejock we start to weave n bob n bounce why not just kick their ass outta here" he responded "yup u can do"... but later u'll be called as "Non sporting person" ;)
babe u hav 5,8 with u...wow...
Moral of story : Just Do It
-TkdWarrior-

Angus

11-20-2002, 10:38 PM

One thing that always worked for me when the side kick and axe kick (one of my faves) failed was the retreating spinning back kick. I don't know if you've learned it yet at your belt level, but ask your instructor. Not only will it insert distance between you and your aggressor so they can't connect with the punch, but if done correctly you'll still kick them in the vest because of the extra reach. If you miss and they continue, then the non-spinning retreating back kick work well. :D

Best advice has already been said, though: get to them before they have a chance to attack you.

Bagatha

11-21-2002, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by KennethKu

If you haven't read it yet, I would recommend following Bagatha's advice in her post quoted here. She is an experienced winning competitor whose advice is always a reflection of in depth and extensive technical knowledge as well as real life sparring experience earned in numerous tournys.

:rolleyes: Gimmie a break.

Angus

11-21-2002, 02:11 AM

Did I miss something?

Damian Mavis

11-21-2002, 03:06 AM

Like many people said, keep hand strikers away with stopping kicks.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

KennethKu

11-21-2002, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by Bagatha

:rolleyes: Gimmie a break.

lol You are always too modest, Bagatha.

karatekid1975

11-21-2002, 03:38 PM

Thanks Kenneth or should I thank Bagatha LOL. Anyhow, it was really good advice.

Angus, I do know the back kick. I will put it to use :)

Langdow

11-21-2002, 05:39 PM

Like the common advice is, keep them away with stopping kicks (back, side, cut kicks) But if they do get in and they wanna punch swing a crescent kick up to the side of their head on whichever side they're punching, hard to see and not a good chance to block it with a busy punching hand, unless it's with the head.

Have fun, I'm doing the same this weekend, should share war stories later :D

fissure

11-21-2002, 07:34 PM

white dragon is correct, under the new WTF/USTU rules package you can land to the back, just not on the spine.
WTF rules are designed to encourage (award points) to kicking tech. A puncher is at a severe disadvantage in a standard WTF tourny.Use cut side kicks (probably the only type of side kick you will see used)! fade round kicks and back kicks (jumping or otherwise) to control the misguided fool who thinks he can score a point with his hands at a WTF competition. When in punching range, use your own hands (you practiced TSD if I remember rightly, so your should have a decent reverse punch) by striking high on the hogu where there is little protection. I used to like short uppercuts into the armpit area as well - I'm just nice like that.
Bottom line is, if you can land 1/4 as many kicks as your opponent does punches -- your golden! ( just don't follow ANY of this advise out in the real world)!

karatekid1975

11-22-2002, 12:29 AM

Yes, Fissure (thinking back to the endless hand strike drills in TSD), I can land a decent punch :D

Anyways, I'm guessing that "punching" gets less points than kicks, right? I know that head kicks get 3 points, low kicks 2, so I'm assuming punches get 1. I could be wrong, though. I never sparred in a tourny (just do breaking and forms usually) :shrug:

I did make use of the head high hook kick tonight. I faked or did a mid level side kick, and without dropping my foot, landed a hook kick to the head. I tried to use the side kick more in class tonight. You guys are right. It did work :) Sweet :D I'm also into the hook kick lately, so I'll prolly put those two together as a combo more often. I have to try the other ideas above also. Like making the first move with a hard kick, and follow up quickly :)

Fissure, I think I would make use of my hand strikes in the real world ;)

P.S. Thanks to everyone for their advice. If ya got anymore ideas, let me know ;)

TkdWarrior

11-22-2002, 01:01 AM

PS. Thanks to everyone for their advice. If ya got anymore ideas, let me know ;)

ur always welcome laurie...i just thought u might need this...
http://members.tripod.com/martial_arts_tips/
btw put it in map u'll get oveloaded with tips to handle ;)
dont' just work out on couple of kicks combo increase the number

-TkdWarrior-

TKDman

11-22-2002, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by celtic bhoy

If you know you are up against a puncher, be prepared to punch your way out of trouble. Plenty of feints and lateral movement until you can get yourself back in kicking range.

Just want your opponent wants, a punching game. If a person is a 'puncher' they are going to be good at punching. Most likely, you will not be able to beat that person at their own game. Focus on what you are best at instead!

karatekid1975

11-22-2002, 10:04 PM

That would be kicks ;) I'm definitely a kicker. I'm not saying I don't punch, but 8 outta 10 times that I land a technique, it's kicks.

I think I will try to make the first move (push kick or side kick), keep them in kicking range, and load them up with kicks ;)

H@pkid0ist

11-23-2002, 01:39 AM

try stepping to the side and delivering a good shin kick or knee to the midsection. Also it helps to step out push away at their elbow and do a few elbow strikes of your own to their sides. Hope this helps some.

karatekid1975

11-24-2002, 12:08 AM

Hapkidoist,

Great advice and I love Hapkido ;) But I need advice for WTF TKD tourny, not a street fight LOL.

To all,

I have another problem. I got a cold! GGRRRRRR!!! Two weeks before the tourny. It's hard to breath during sparring with a cold. I can't last more than 30 seconds, let alone a minute and a half (the time I need for one round at the tourny) without sucking wind! What should I do ?????? Help!

Damian Mavis

11-24-2002, 01:48 AM

"try stepping to the side and delivering a good shin kick or knee to the midsection. Also it helps to step out push away at their elbow and do a few elbow strikes of your own to their sides. Hope this helps some."

Helps with what? Getting her disqualified?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Marginal

11-24-2002, 05:05 AM

Originally posted by karatekid1975

I have another problem. I got a cold! GGRRRRRR!!! Two weeks before the tourny. It's hard to breath during sparring with a cold. I can't last more than 30 seconds, let alone a minute and a half (the time I need for one round at the tourny) without sucking wind! What should I do ?????? Help!

Resting up couldn't hurt. Better to knock the cold out first (two weeks should be more than enough time to clear that up) rather than trying to train through it...

H@pkid0ist

11-24-2002, 12:01 PM

Sorry K Kid, but im not much on tourneys. I ve never even competed before.

TkdWarrior

11-24-2002, 12:04 PM

cold will take at most 3 days...so take rest...
-TkdWarrior-

Hollywood1340

11-24-2002, 02:35 PM

We have very few if any HKD tourneys, it is understandable sir :)

fissure

11-29-2002, 09:16 AM

Sorry K Kid, but im not much on tourneys. I ve never even competed before.
Nothing wrong with that - but your "advice" still doesn't help much in regaurd to Karate Kid's questions, does it?

white belt

11-30-2002, 04:39 PM

If I may suggest, try the following. When sparring next with a trusted partner, focus on your feet or stance in conjunction to your sparring partner and his position. Specifically concentrate on the closed stance arrangement. In case you are unfamiliar with that term, a closed stance is when you and your opponent are the same foot forward, meaning both with left leads or vice versa. When he closes the distance to punch, step at a 45 degree angle toward the outside of his lead foot. His rear hand will then be 180 degrees or so from his original targets. This is also going to put his rear leg in a very poor position to attack you, his front hand and front leg also will be very limited. In order to regroup he will have to make major adjustments to his position. While that is happening ALL FOUR of your attacking limbs can make him very miserable. This works very well against a taller man who uses his front leg to kick alot. His reach advantage is snuffed out immediately and if he is not used to this approach being used against him, you may note a bit of panic in his movements or facial expressions. When stepping into this position correctly, if he is taller concentrate on keeping him in close and deliver body shot combos. If he is shorter, you can stay in close and rain axe / crescent kicks with or w/o punches or you can step away and get your long range back to keep him coming up short on his reach. When you step away, stay on the outside of his front foot where you are in a position to glimpse his kidney area. This keeps his limbs crossed up and keeps him from strongly attacking you as you back out of his range.

The really nice thing to see for all those who question TKD's street ability, is that this move applies to dealing with kickers, punchers and grapplers. It is a great way to close in for back attacks (rear naked chokes, etc.), knee stomps to their lead knee, kidney busters, etc. The foremost danger to you on the street, once in position, is the lead arms elbow coming back at you. Check that elbow with a palm or grab the arm to be safe. Shoes take a sporting kick and turn it into a potential killer. Like having brass knuckles for the feet. Please be careful.

Back to the fun in the DoJang. Keep your cards close to your chest, at least until you have this concept down. Once comfortable, this might help you enjoy your training more. If this is old stuff for you, I apologize in advance.

Best of luck in December,
white belt

karatekid1975

12-01-2002, 12:11 AM

Thanks for the advice, white belt. But I'm no beginner when it comes to sparring (or MA). My problem is I had half of my weapons taken away from me when I went from TSD to TKD.

In TSD, hand attacks are allowed to the head. That includes backfists, ridge hands, knife hands, ect. I almost always scored with a backfist and/or ridge hand when I sparred in TSD. If someone came at me with a punch, I would get them with one of the two. Sometimes I used them in a combo with kicks, and they'd back away. It worked 99% of the time (for me anyways).

In TKD, there is no hand contact to the head at all. I can't use my old defenses against punches. I feel hopeless. When they come at me, I can't counter attack with a "pop" to the head with a hand technique. I have to figure out how to subsitute hand techniques with kicks, fakes, tricks ..... whatever works.

I hope this made sense. I sleepy LOL

Damian Mavis

12-01-2002, 12:16 AM

"In TKD, there is no hand contact to the head at all."

EEP you silly person, you meant "In WTF TKD, there is no hand contact to the head."

We in ITF box the heck out of eachothers heads, and ridgehand, backfist and all that good stuff too!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

karatekid1975

12-01-2002, 10:39 PM

LOL. Yes I mean WTF TKD. Sorry Damian ;)

Chronuss

12-06-2002, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by karatekid1975

Hiya all.

I'm going to a tourny on 12/15. There is a lot of "punchers" in my dojang. They will get in on you and just pound away at your vest. I'm a kicker, so I'm useless when this happens.

My question is, what is the best strategies against these type of fighters? Mind you, I do WTF TKD style sparring. No hand contact to the head, and punches are only allowed to the vest. Which is something I'm still getting used to coming from TSD. No take-downs or hits below the belt.

I do have a few good skills in sparring, so I was hoping to use a few of those. 1) I'm flexible. I can kick to the head. 2) I have a lot of power for a chic. And 3) I'm a fairly good front leg kicker.

Thanks in advance.

well, hell...number 3's all you need. when they start swinging on you plant a front kick in their stomach.

man...no hand contact to the head...I'd be done. my favorite thing is a backfist to the side of the head with a reverse punch to the ribs. if they like punching, start moving around. they throw a punch, parry, sidestep, round kick to stomach. the front kick fake then go into a round kick is an excellent way to score. you can do the same thing with a side kick then change it into a hook kick.

I still can't get over the no head contact thing...that's...unrealistic..

Hollywood1340

12-06-2002, 06:26 PM

As is basketball, or football. It's a sport, it has rules. *shakes head*
"Taekwondo is a sport. I train in it. Deal with it"
James Maxwell on TKD

karatekid1975

12-06-2002, 10:17 PM

Chronuss wrote:

<man...no hand contact to the head...I'd be done. my favorite thing is a backfist to the side of the head with a reverse punch to the ribs .......

<I still can't get over the no head contact thing...that's...unrealistic.. >

Dude, that's how I feel! :) You hit it on the money.

Hapkidoist wrote:

<Sorry K Kid, but im not much on tourneys.....>

It's ok. I wasn't into sparring (WTF) either (except in class), so I know how you feel.

I was going to do this tourny, but I decided against it. I feel like I'm "forced" to do it. I'm also scared (well .... wrong word) that I would get disqualified for using hand techs to the head. I still do it in class (and get told about it) because my TSD instructor drilled these type of techniques, cause they work. WTF TKD doesn't allow it.

white belt

12-06-2002, 11:09 PM

Laurie,

How long has it been since you switched styles?

white belt

Chronuss

12-06-2002, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by karatekid1975

I still do it in class (and get told about it) because my TSD instructor drilled these type of techniques, cause they work. WTF TKD doesn't allow it.

you're damn skippy they work. nothing works better than a backfist to the temple or a vertical punch to the mastoid, palm heel to the chin/nose then a claw down, or even a spearhand to the adam's apple. even though some of the aforementioned are not allowed in standard sparring, OF COURSE THEY WORK.

but like I said against the punchers, try and keep some distance and work angles. if they like to come in from the front, SIDESTEP and PARRY. redirect their movement to your advantage then blast them with a round kick to the stomach or an axe kick to the top of the head. ...I'd sidestep, parry and with the same hand just follow through with a backfist...sigh...

SMAC

12-16-2002, 10:33 AM

2 pieces of advice. You should be able to kick much harder than they can punch. Their punches are absorbed on wtf pads but a back kick isn't. Also you can kick to the head but they can't punch yours. Make them scared of that by unleashing some full power kicks, not just tappy tappy point scorers. Use kicks that you can use at close range but get you out of range ie. jumping back kick.
Secondly you have identified a weakness in yourself. Over the next few months rectify it by working on your own punches to make yourself more rounded (and formidable)
SMAC

ThuNder_FoOt

12-18-2002, 06:21 PM

Hi there Laurie,

My advice would be to maintain a good kicking distance by making good use of feints and stop hits. If they charge in, hit them with a side kick or a push kick, and then follow-up with a combination. Against a puncher you should make sure you attack in combinations. A few good feints will keep your attacker confused and at bay where you can kick him/her. If you can mix it up with continous kicks, that would help as well.

Good Luck!

karatekid1975

12-19-2002, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by SMAC
2 pieces of advice. You should be able to kick much harder than they can punch. Their punches are absorbed on wtf pads but a back kick isn't. Also you can kick to the head but they can't punch yours. Make them scared of that by unleashing some full power kicks, not just tappy tappy point scorers. Use kicks that you can use at close range but get you out of range ie. jumping back kick.
Secondly you have identified a weakness in yourself. Over the next few months rectify it by working on your own punches to make yourself more rounded (and formidable)
SMAC

I did this during my test last week. It was cool. But I know how to punch and do other hand techs. The problem is the rules in WTF. I can't use what I learned in TSD. So I have to subsitute ridge hand, knife hand, backfist, ect techniques with mid section punches and kicks. I did use a good reverse punch that connected with my partner's mid section that sent him backwards. So I just have to work with that, I guess.

Cain

12-19-2002, 04:29 AM

Hmm.......Karatekid1975.......hmm.....Tkdwarrior.. ......hmmm.......Is god playing a trick on me or something......

Ok I am not that good but let me add a few some :D

Linear kicks are ur best bet against a boxer, for me a front kick is a better alternative than a side kick, since a side kick can leave u in a bad position if u miss, at a closer range use axe kicks, but vary them ie randomly inner, outer axe kicks. Hope that helps

Also don't ignore punching........

|Cain|