Won-Hyo technical question

[thesensei]

My TKD instructor and I were working Won-Hyo last night, and I noticed a very odd thing in the pattern.

Moves 19-24:

19. S(90CCW) Left Walking Right Inner Forearm Circular Block
20. S Left Walking Front Snap Kick w. Right Foot
21. S Right Walking Left Rev. Middle Punch
22. S Right Walking Left Inner Forearm Circular Block
23. S Right Walking Front Snap Kick w. Left Foot
24. S Left Walking Right Rev. Middle Punch

After the front kick, you land forward and do a reverse punch with the opposite hand. Why would you use a reverse punch instead of a lunge punch? It seems like the range of a lunge punch (front hand) would be much more effective. Any ideas?

thanks,
jb

[Kong]

The first circular block could be used to control and throw aside a foot attack, after wich you follow up with the front kick and reverse punch,,,now, in this scenario you would end up pretty close to your opponent, and reverse punches generaly generate more power in close ranges since you throw it from further back, and it`s easier to get your hips into it.
Just a thought, this is a very common application scenario for that series of techniques.
Any one else got an idea?


:asian:

[arnisador]

We have an application similar to the one you mention in our Modern Arnis forms (derived from Shotokan). The "punch" might be reaching out to grab someone also. You might ask in the Karate forum as they have similar forms.

[TkdWarrior]

i think kong is rite... i m working on it... wat i think is when u kcik with ur rite foot the punch from rite hand will not generate much power(even if u r close to ur oppnt as kong suggested) even after kick u land in walking stance, may be that's also a bit odd...
dunno...
-TkdWarrior-

[thesensei]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior

i think kong is rite... i m working on it... wat i think is when u kcik with ur rite foot the punch from rite hand will not generate much power(even if u r close to ur oppnt as kong suggested) even after kick u land in walking stance, may be that's also a bit odd...
dunno...
-TkdWarrior-

well if you use (to borrow from my kenpo experience) 'gravitational marriage,' striking as you land, you will generate much more power, along with less movement to get into that position. i suppose i understand what the form is trying to do, i guess i just wouldn't use it that way in a SD situation.

jb

[Bagatha]

Sometimes forms are just a sequence of movements put together to teach coordination of technique. Sometimes they do mean something greater whether in application or spiritually. In this case I really dont think it means anything. It could be a right punch, could be a left punch. But this way it sets it up so the 2nd cirrcular block is wasy to do, and looks nice. But just to argue about power.....how do you break boards? with a jab or with a cross?? It is more powerful in a reverse stance and doesnt take any longer to do at all. Although I highly doubt that was the motive.

[Damian Mavis]

Why punch from the back hand that is further away?

"reverse punches generaly generate more power"

These are also called crosses in boxing and they do tons more power than a lead hand jab. Yes they are further away than the jab.

"'gravitational marriage,' striking as you land, you will generate much more power"

This is also correct. After the front snap you do the cross (reverse punch) as you land which puts alot more power behind that punch.

"Sometimes forms are just a sequence of movements put together to teach coordination of technique"

This is also kind of true... I personally don't put too much thought or stress into what each movements application is in each pattern. There's so much else to focus on in TKD.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[thesensei]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis



I personally don't put too much thought or stress into what each movements application is in each pattern. There's so much else to focus on in TKD.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Gotcha...I guess i'm just used to the kenpo forms, where every movement generally has a specific purpose. It's just a difference I have to get used to.

BTW, what is honour TKD?

[Damian Mavis]

No no don't get me wrong, every move in our patterns is supposed to have a specific purpose. I just don't have the utmost faith in their usefulness. Alot of the patterns techniques are great, and alot would never be used by me in a fight. My point is.... I just don't worry about the patterns applicability in real life fighting too much so was suggesting the same to you. Most instructors won't talk to you like this but the focus of my school is street defence so if it's not extremely useful for street we don't focus on it as much as the next thing that is. But I think you really like patterns so don't mind my advice heh.

Honour TKD is the name of my school.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

No no don't get me wrong, every move in our patterns is supposed to have a specific purpose. I just don't have the utmost faith in their usefulness. Alot of the patterns techniques are great, and alot would never be used by me in a fight. My point is.... I just don't worry about the patterns applicability in real life fighting too much so was suggesting the same to you. Most instructors won't talk to you like this but the focus of my school is street defence so if it's not extremely useful for street we don't focus on it as much as the next thing that is. But I think you really like patterns so don't mind my advice heh.

Honour TKD is the name of my school.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I like the honesty about the patterns Damian, that's about how I feel about them. I like to do them for the workout and to work on basics but don't see any other use for them like the kenpo forms.

:asian:

[white belt]

Respectfully consider this concerning the punching with the rear hand in hyung. Pal Gae Sa Jang (form 4) has two such punches near and at the end of the form. At this point in development of the student, proper hip rotation for power is being trained. In Pal Gae E Jang (form 2) a front kick followed by a front hand punch is used throughout the form. This is teaching the basic shifting of forward momentum into a hand strike as the kick is being completed. At the higher level in forms practice the marriage of forward lunging and opposite hand / hip rotation are combined after proper time and practice are given to both seperately. I sense that this was intentionally done so that the aspiring student may have a better chance of capturing the body mechanics / physics essence. If I may suggest an experiment? In any of the forms you practice, look for a front kick followed by a same side punch (meaning right front snap kick followed by a right hand punch, etc.). Instead of keeping the spine straight and rigid during the kick, push the hips strongly forward and imagine the spine bending back like a flexible piece of bamboo. When your kicks zenith is reached, and your upper body is pulled forward by the hips projection, release that punch. When done correctly the catapulting of the spine, with a proper hand chamber at the hip, will accelerate your punch in an almost amazing way. The time lag between the kick and punch will also be virtually nonexistant as compared to before. Now after that is digested by your nervous system, try the front kick REAR hand punch and use the spine whip WITH the hip rotation. If executed right your arm may be in danger of flying out of the socket from the velocity. BE CAREFUL is all I can say to anyone trying this. If you practice your forms in a half assed non-serious way, YOUR SPINE AND SHOULDER MAY NOT BE READY FOR THE SHOCK.

On the yoga side of the coin, by keeping the torso upright and turning the hip into the punch, you are lengthening your hip flexors and developing your range of motion for proper lumbar health. If you hold the stance deeply and as correct as possible, breath deep into the abdomen with muscles relaxed and you will feel a pleasant opening of the much used front of the pelvis. If this is old news, I apologize in advance for my verbosity.

Respectfully,
white belt

[white belt]

An additional note. That block before the kick punch combo may be something other than it seems. Humor me and look at the block as a possible trapping / submisson hold. The punch and kick can then be delivered to very specific targets if the culprit can't free himself. It's a shame there are not more people like you and your instructor who see that there is something more to the forms than many of the jaded newcomers. Our art would then be seen in it's proper light.

Respectfully,
white belt

[arnisador]

It goes to show ho wimportant it is to interpret the forms!

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by white belt

An additional note. That block before the kick punch combo may be something other than it seems. Humor me and look at the block as a possible trapping / submisson hold. The punch and kick can then be delivered to very specific targets if the culprit can't free himself. It's a shame there are not more people like you and your instructor who see that there is something more to the forms than many of the jaded newcomers. Our art would then be seen in it's proper light.

Respectfully,
white belt

Its not a sumbission hold. It's a "catch and release". All one needs to do is put a person in front of them when they perform the patterns to see that some movements just arent realistic. Some may be, but some arent.

[Damian Mavis]

No kidding bagatha.

"It's a shame there are not more people like you and your instructor who see that there is something more to the forms than many of the jaded newcomers."

Mr. White belt, I'm assuming your much older than I am and probably a Master in ITF TKD to talk this way so I will give you the respect I would afford any such person and just say that I firmly don't have faith in the forms. My colleagues swear by them and we often debate how and why they are useless to me for street applications while they argue up and down how important and realistic they are. Just differences of opinion and something I doubt we will ever agree on.

It's just the way I feel about patterns sir.

Damian Mavis

[white belt]

That "much older" comment reminds me of the three categories of our great western societies.

1) The hip people.
2) The not so hip people.
3) And the broken hip people.

I will admit to being a member of group 2.

Referencing the subject of rank. Apparently I am VERY rank at communicating, in type, three dimensional thoughts to others. My apologies. Understanding technique and application are not necessarily an indication of rank. Rank is not necessarily an indication of understanding technique and application. I sense much frustration in the tone of the replies given me. I don't wish to incite further frustration. I interact only to serve goodhearted people and their sincere interest in proven experiences shared with and by me. Again my humble apologies. I also extend these thoughts to the young lady in category 1 and hope she does well at her tournament endeavor. I will read instead of type for awhile that I may learn.

white belt

[Damian Mavis]

I hope I didn't sound frustrated, I have the pattern debate with other instructors all the time and it's always lighthearted. I was agreeing with Bagatha that some of the movements in our patterns just seem rather useless for a full contact, full speed street type encounter. The only thing I wasn't too fond of was thinking you were refering to me as a jaded newcomer. I've only been training for 13 years in TKD and to some that might seem like a newcomer. I wasn't being sarcastic, was really just trying to cover my butt in case I was about to debate with a Master in ITF TKD.

"Understanding technique and application are not necessarily an indication of rank."

It should be, but you are right... it isn't.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Bagatha]

*Ahem* call me "newbie".... just a baby of arts around here...

Myself, patterns are my "forte" (sp?) I simply dont have the desire or natural ability in sparring that my patterns have. One particular ITF Master once told me "if you have good patterns, that means you can spar good". Well....not so far, :rolleyes:I have my moments but it is inconsistent. They say that it is all about technique, understanding body mechanics. If you can do it in the patterns, then you can apply it elsewhere. I suppose.....but the instict is not there, the interaction, the timing. Patterns cannot replace sparring, and sparring cannot replace patterns. They are both usefull....but I still dont think patterns are "realistic".

[white belt]

Bagatha,

Share with me your description of how a basic low block works. I am serious. I might be in a position to share something possibly not considered. Explain the manipulation of the kicking leg by your block. If you are reluctant, I understand. A newcomer to me can be someone who bought what they were taught for many years and they still haven't cracked the physiology code of the movements. It is something that I thought was nonexistant and then something happened. I was a streetfighter when I started M.A.s and I thought forms were for nerds. I did forms using the intent of what I was told the basic moves are doing. How we are first taught is not very useful, but, how we are first taught is not the truth. I like TKD people and want them to feel better about their time invested without causing further pain. I liken the TKD discussions I see to the A.A. meetings format. Something like "Hello, I am so and so....and I practice useless martial art!!!". It's not necessary to have this mindset. Apparently, this is not an easy quest. Share your lowblock, please. I will then explain the truth if needed.

Respectfully,
white belt

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by white belt

...'... Explain the manipulation of the kicking leg by your block. If you are reluctant, I understand. A newcomer to me can be someone who bought what they were taught for many years and they still haven't cracked the physiology code of the movements....... I like TKD people and want them to feel better about their time invested without causing further pain. I liken the TKD discussions I see to the A.A. meetings format. Something like "Hello, I am so and so....and I practice useless martial art!!!". It's not necessary to have this mindset. Apparently, this is not an easy quest. Share your lowblock, please. I will then explain the truth if needed.......

Sorry. But this sounds like what? God's gift to TKD? Savior of TKD practitioners? And your credential? A former streetfighter. I see. So was I and a bizillion other JoeBlows from the street!! To use streetfighting credential is like the aging Voodoo witch doctor "enlightening" heart surgeons on "real life" medicine. There is NOTHING mystical about street fighting. I would probably (stated in humility) prevail at a street encounter BUT get squarely KO in most sparring comp. (OK. Bad example. May be I just simply suck then. ) The fact is there is nothing magical about streetfighting.

When I read your post above this one, Sir, you came across rather respectable. This post however, is a disappointment.


P.S. Unlike Ms Bagatha and Mr Mavis, I am nobody in TKD and just simply calling it as I see it. JMHO, as they say.

[white belt]

Thank you for your response. Your statement of there "being nothing mystical about streetfighting" is precisely my point in the last post. Thank you for being more succint than I. I expressed my experience of weak diplomacy (streetfighting) only to make the point that there is a closer link between forms / basics and real self defense than most TKD people and others may think. I am not a macho kind of person, but, I unfortunately crossed paths with a few toughs that I could not escape. Now if I had not been in any real altercations, the ability to appreciate what is in the forms and it's usefulness would have been more obscured.

In reference to Bagatha, she seems like a strong person and I admire her for her spirit. I will question the more curious views / statements of intelligent people first, for they are the ones who most like to acquire more knowledge and they in turn have much knowledge to share. I am a student of all and a follower of none. I am no more a "gift" than you, but, we are all "gifts" to each other.

Unfortunately the gift of our patterns (TKD or other arts) sometimes gets lost in the packing material and one then thinks it is an empty box. We TKD people all need to sometimes go back and reexamine the discarded material before too many more generations are taught the box is empty. I really enjoy sparring Olympic style and otherwise, but, the trends of focusing on only sport competition threatens the long term existance of true growth oriented martial art. Judo is a good example of what can happen. The Judo of 50 years ago is not the Judo of today. There were more street useable techniques then. A lot of younger Judo people are surprised to find out there are Judo kata! Something is wrong there. That is where the majority of the self defense is stored. And yes, it is useable. For lack of a better example reference the triangle chokes, arm bars and leg sweeps from tie up position in MMA. How many Judo Dojo's are around now as compared to only 30 years ago? With the population increasing one would suspect an increase in growth, not a decrease.

Back to my original question. How do the mechanics of the basic low / down block work for self defense? A clue, it can be used as a destruction or submission without changing the attributes. I understand the subject is touchy with some and no I don't think I know all and see all. I will put my groin cup on before I look at any more responses. Maybe I should get some ice too.


Good surfing,
white belt

P.S.
Surgical science is studying a powder used by Voodoo priests to put people in suspended animation resembling death. It is thought to be a possible aid in controling respiration during delicate procedures. Cup on.

[KennethKu]

First of all, Ms Bagatha does not need me nor any one else to defend her.

Secondly, it is not necessary to assume that people would automatically get defensive or irritable or upset over your views that may or may not counter to theirs. They are professionals, and although while ego is everywhere in MA, they are the exceptional ones. It sure wouldn't be the first time they have heard different views and opinions.

I will now shut up and get off my soap box. :asian:

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by white belt

Bagatha,

Share with me your description of how a basic low block works. I am serious. I might be in a position to share something possibly not considered. Explain the manipulation of the kicking leg by your block. If you are reluctant, I understand. A newcomer to me can be someone who bought what they were taught for many years and they still haven't cracked the physiology code of the movements. It is something that I thought was nonexistant and then something happened. I was a streetfighter when I started M.A.s and I thought forms were for nerds. I did forms using the intent of what I was told the basic moves are doing. How we are first taught is not very useful, but, how we are first taught is not the truth. I like TKD people and want them to feel better about their time invested without causing further pain. I liken the TKD discussions I see to the A.A. meetings format. Something like "Hello, I am so and so....and I practice useless martial art!!!". It's not necessary to have this mindset. Apparently, this is not an easy quest. Share your lowblock, please. I will then explain the truth if needed.

Respectfully,
white belt

There is nothing basic about a low block. I could really type for hours on mechanics and application, but if your more interested in the result, a kick specifically, a properly executed low block should disable the opponents attacking weapon. Which I beleive would....if everyone fought in stances and follwed rules.

On a side note....I was all for it until you went into the "reluctant" speech, it made me a little defensive and sounded very arrogant. One thing that is overwhelming the martial arts is arrogance, and is one of the things I find absolutley disgusting. Im not accusing you because having read it a few times I know where your heart is, and if you have ideas to contribute I would love to hear them, but I thought its important that you understand where Im coming from before we proceed.

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by KennethKu

First of all, Ms Bagatha does not need me nor any one else to defend her.



Then .... :mad:

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Bagatha

Then .... :mad:

Would you hold on a second there? Sheeze! :)
It was a general rebuttal. In light of the TKD spirit of humility, I was takan aback by the tune of the post.

[white belt]

Bagatha,

The "reluctant" statement is in reference to how some serious practicioners look at sharing hard earned and potentially dangerous knowledge. It was actually a compliment of sorts.

Next question, which side of the forearm, in your application, is used to make initial contact with the kicking leg?

white belt

[Bagatha]

Funny....it almost sounded like you were starting another fight...

(@ Ken)

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Bagatha

Funny....it almost sounded like you were starting another fight...

(@ Ken)

Oh noooo. Not at all. Bagatha, I keep my words.

LOL, this sounded like one of Bruce Lee's movies.

No, what I mean was, my lack of diplomatic skill notwithstanding, there isn't any need to pick fight.

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by white belt

Bagatha,

The "reluctant" statement is in reference to how some serious practicioners look at sharing hard earned and potentially dangerous knowledge. It was actually a compliment of sorts.

Next question, which side of the forearm, in your application, is used to make initial contact with the kicking leg?

white belt

outer..

[white belt]

Can you describe your chambering of the arm in question? Where does it start, where does it stop? Does it go up toward the opposite shoulder and then sweep down to make contact? Also, where is the opposite arm and hand in all this? I have something really cool to share once I see where your points of reference are. Sacrifice a few minutes. It may at first look silly these questions I ask, but, I may have a nice surprise for you. This is leading to something I found and verified with an ex-miitary Korean G.M. This led me to other things hidden in plain view also.

Respectfully,
white belt

[Bagatha]

I am assuming at this point you are asking me these questions because you are unfamiliar with this block in particular, or want to make sure we do the same block. oookaaaay... lol... here we go.. -Low outer forearm block-

HAND PORTION ONLY..

both hands come up shoulder height, almost fully extended, On the opposite chest line to the blocking direction. Hands cross (overlap) breifly as they both remain in motion, palms facing the opposite direction to the finished position to alow for torque. Blocking hand crosses on top, the 2 backs of the hands facing each other as they cross(although never touch). The breif backward motion is then followed by the 2nd portion of the movement, where the blocking arm is on a 45 degree tragectory toward the target and the reaction hand goes to whatever its destination would be with equal force. The final few inches of the block, both hands torque. The final resting position is with the arm parallel with the thigh, at a distance of about 20 cm. The elbow is bent outward 25 degrees, and the forearm itself is still rotated (pointed) on the 45 degree mark.

[Marginal]

Originally posted by white belt

An additional note. That block before the kick punch combo may be something other than it seems. Humor me and look at the block as a possible trapping / submisson hold. The punch and kick can then be delivered to very specific targets if the culprit can't free himself. I'm having trouble visiualizing that. Am I correct in assuming that for a submission you have the leg gripped with two hands? (Ending posistion would be too unstable for a reliable sub otherwise.) Seems like that's not a great base for delivering kicks or punches from, especially if you're still holding the opponent after they fail to free themselves. What happens to make it into a good punching/kicking platform? I can understand the trapping application since that's pretty much the general purpose of the block as I understand it, but I'd appreciate more detail.

For that matter, the pattern as described says to deliver a low front kick and a middle reverse punch afterwards. With the opponent's kicking leg trapped, most obvious application would be a kick to the knee (potential hyperextension) followed by a punch to the solar plexus or the xyphloid process, but neither target's so secret or potentially deadly that you'd have to actively suppress mentioning them explicitly. Are there other, better targets within the ranges described by the pattern? I'd be interested in hearing some clarification on that as well.

[white belt]

Bagatha,

You obviously do better than I when getting to the point. I will try my best to explain this all clearly.

When the blocking hand comes up. This is the first key. Before that hand starts moving upward, it is down in front of the groin area. The "nonblocking hand", let's say right hand for example, comes up to the right shoulder at the neck and jaw line. Both elbows are drawn together for coverage. At this point one fist is up (r) and one down (l). Freezing this picture here, the groin solar plexus and jaw area are covered against impact and the body is slightly turned away from the kick letting the force be slightly deflected or absorbed. Now as you pointed out, the left hand is drawn up and crosses at the wrist in FRONT of the right one at the right shoulder. This is done AFTER the kick has struck either the upper OR lower arm. The INSIDE of the left arm, at the thicker Radius, or Radius of the right arm were in position to take impact. Your UPSWING with the left is now CATCHING the leg as your attacker tries to lower it. It becomes shelved on the forearm and it becomes trapped BETWEEN your forearms / wrists as the upswing completes. The kicker then is on one leg and trying to get free or not fall down as you have the chamber in front of your right shoulder. It's a trap. The actual block takes place BEFORE the downstroke of the left arm. Now this is where it gets REALLY violent. For reasons of safety have someone, who doesn't mind, sit in a chair. Have them extend their leg while you mimic the two hands chambered at your right shoulder with their ankle in the valley of your wrist junction. Now with left hand / wrist on top, open your left hand and extend the fingers, reaching over their instep, and hook them around the edge of their foot. NOW the downstroke is applied and the leg is broken at the knee and / or ankle with a simple twisting motion. The hips are the force / torque generator. If the user would like, there is a nicer way. This one is good if only one attacker. They can simply kneel while in front stance, and apply pressure for a submission / takedown. The quarry is held in place now by pulling the RIGHT hand back toward the hip, holding the back of their calf muscle, with fingers DUG into the muscle belly. This is where the right hand, which gets chambered at the hip, sees it's function. Stick your thumb into the inward side of your calf muscle, at the belly between your legs, to catch my drift. This is why some of the older styles had kneeling versions of some blocks. They were used as restraining holds until the adversary was under control. This same toe hold can be set up from a single leg takedown for the groundfighters out there.

The basic movements and forms have survived centuries for more than excercise and the banging of arms and legs. But, I am just one man it appears. I hope forms become a little more interesting for some who didn't see this on their own yet. I would appreciate any discoveries from fellow likeminded forms practitioners. I will never find as much without other's input. If I seem verbose, I apologize. I am in awe about how much is out there to learn. I like to learn and be critiqued at the same time.

Well, who did I pee off this time?

Cup on,
white belt

[white belt]

Marginal,

This is Sub-Marginal aka white belt. The explanation you are looking for will require some further input about the form in question. It is not a pattern I have, but, I have many others that may help us with clues. Do you practice this pattern? If so, please detail the sensai's description of move 19 hands, feet, trajectories, etc. I want to make sure I don't waste your time and effort with one fatal oversight. Also, will your teacher be able to help? Does he or would he mind me sharing? I must respect the circumstances here. Check out the latest post by me concerning the low block and you will see why I won't be tossing around info. much more. It would be irresponsible on my part. I don't want a meany hurting someone because of me. My main reason for hopping on board with this forum, is to generate some fresh interest in forms and basics. I love martial arts and all, but, TKD is suffering from the bashing by the MMA surge. MMA is great, but, a lot of the submissions are in the TKD, Karate and old Ju Jitsu forms. Our forms / basics are so watered down now, that this is near impossible to see. I again refer you to my last post. You will understand. Things have sort of come full circle. All arts are good, but, some are being more diluted for various reasons. I want the forms practicioners to find the truth in the forms themselves, get as much verification as possible, and then teach the next generation correctly. That is our real future. Sparring is great, but, forms techniques are more versatile for self defense. Thank you for replying. Maybe I can help, with your input, on Won-Hyo.

white belt

P.S.
I may be a little delayed responding due to the workload I have during the week. I will do my best and I mean no disrespect.

[Bagatha]

:shrug: Im not buying it. :)There is are specific trapping movements which are different than what the low block is, like the one in won hyo, a cirrcular block. It is very specific. Each move is clearly defined and layed out in the encyclopedia, blocks are to be used as strikes, or deflections, submissions are a different catagory. Low blocks dont start at the groin and go back up, both hands move together at all times etc. I suppose if there was no encyclopedia then there would be alot of guess work but since it expains pretty much everything what you describe just doesnt sit. If your talking about whatever the original movement was that began hundreds of years ago (if not more) before it was "modified" over and over, I really dunno, it would be interesting to see something written on that. But again the movements have been altered in the creation of TKD to formulate a strike with the forearm or knifehand low block, with the intention of breaking the tibia, or at the very least making it painful enough that the attacker wont use it again. Also, from what limited experiece I have in submission fighting, the most basic universal concept (at my level :D) is that to have effective control over your partner you must keep the limb your working on close to your body, the low block doesnt do this either. Arms are almost fully extended at shoulder height, which would be a really awkward position. But all this is interesting to think about.

[Marginal]

Originally posted by white belt

The explanation you are looking for will require some further input about the form in question. It is not a pattern I have, but, I have many others that may help us with clues. Do you practice this pattern?I feel like I just emailed a tech support department...

The pattern is listed here (http://www.itf-information.com/sub0404.htm)

My questions were very specific, in the context of the thread, and could be answered with minimal effort on your part. Furthermore, I see no reason why I need to waste my time describing the moves you've been discussing for several posts already. So really, you are wasting my time already.


Also, will your teacher be able to help? Does he or would he mind me sharing? I must respect the circumstances here.[/b]

No conflicts there.


Check out the latest post by me concerning the low block and you will see why I won't be tossing around info.

I read that. (I don't buy it however.)


It would be irresponsible on my part. I don't want a meany hurting someone because of me.

There's no danger of that.


My main reason for hopping on board with this forum, is to generate some fresh interest in forms and basics.

Great. Answering simple questions may be a good method of doing so.


I love martial arts and all, but, TKD is suffering from the bashing by the MMA surge.

There are other factors at work here. However, stopgap grappling reinterpretations of basic movements in forms probably won't do much to shut up MMA types.


Our forms / basics are so watered down now, that this is near impossible to see.

Kinda like constellations.


I again refer you to my last post. You will understand.

All too clearly. You have nothing substantive to say. You're merely content to hide behine the "secret/deadly technique" veil at the expense of such a discussion. Given that I've seen 3-6th dans freely discussing this stuff online with no fears of countless deaths being the result, I have to wonder.

[Damian Mavis]

Yikes, hmmm, uhm.... gee I really don't know what to say.....

White belt, what are your sources for such an interesting interpretation of those movements. Or is that a personal interpretation on your part?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

P.S. was that a joke about people reading your pattern theory and using it to hurt people? That seemed....odd.

[Marginal]

A middle guarding block is potentially deadly as a technique because you can catch a kick in the "v" created with your lead arm. (I've caught a few kicks with it accidently at least, so the example works about as well as the downblock one) Once they're trapped, you can lever them off so they fall down, sweep them, apply a joint attack to the trapped leg, the supporting leg, or even strike key points on the chest and head since you still have one arm free in perfect reverse punch position. (TKD's suddenly way more dangerous than it was before you read this post. If you kill anyone with this, do not sue me.)

[Damian Mavis]

Just to avoid any confusion, the whole of my last post was directed at Whitebelt.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Marginal]

Just to avoid any confusion, the whole of my last post was directed at Whitebelt.

No confusion here.

Just had a stroke of inspiration along the line of thinking that created the interpretation of the down block as an offensive tool. (I don't really think that a middle guarding block is an effective grappling tool, but the logic fits about as well.)

[white belt]

Well, I can't say I am surprised. It was a frustrating experience for me too when the truth showed up. Bagatha, you are right about the limb needing to be near for proper manipulation. The chambering I am taught DOES bring the hands close to the body. The left elbow is straight when low then BENDS as it is chambered up by the shoulder with the other hand. In Pancrase it is called the Universal Block at it's inception position due to the versatility of the, in this case, left hands ability to go into the outward or high block from the shoulder point. Those are whole different apps. at that point. Think about it guys, the description of the hands defelecting a kick is used in TKD sparring ,Karate and various forms of kickboxing. It is a natural response. The lead foot can be lifted up as well to use the shin for blocking a kick lower than groin level before putting it back down such as in MT, etc.

As far as bashing any MMA. No way. I am a supporter of the UFC, etc. I partially credit the pioneers in those forums for causing traditionalists to wake up. Read up on Gichin Funakoshi and Jigoro Kano. The Do concept of their art's premise was to bring the brutal battlefield moves to the masses for health cultivation. They were very open about how they took the details out of the moves for safety reasons. They and others then taught a generic version of much more potentially dangerous techniques, such as the low block, to make the growth appealing to the average joe. Even today you see this mentality now run amok with the McDojo buy a belt craze. It has gotten out of hand and far from what the Do advocates intended. Those moves are there if you look. The key is looking at the FIRST part (chambering motion) of any basic or move to find it's true essence.

As far as my sharing deadly techs., would you teach a beginner in Judo a choke or sleeper hold the first day? Of course not. A responsible teacher teaches you to fall and some less dangerous beginner stuff. I know that Dim Mak stuff is available out the wazoo, but, it doesn't mean I should hand out harmful info. like Halloween candy.

I requested the Won Hyo info. in sincerity and now it appears that is somehow an indicator that I can't help think you guys through a possible obscured app.? I don't have all the patterns ever developed. I am based in the Pal Gaes. I then SHOULD ask questions to give the circumstance the respect it deserves. Bagatha at least was kind enough and we both HAVE low blocks.

Sorry if I upset your applecarts, but, you were commenting on having no apples. I believe you do if you look harder and put your emotions aside. That's all. I know men who have studied the same patterns I have for 20-25 yrs. It was a bitter pill to swallow, but, they are now seeing past the beginning apps. taught them.

Have a good day all,
white belt

[Bagatha]

Originally posted by white belt


As far as my sharing deadly techs., would you teach a beginner in Judo a choke or sleeper hold the first day? Of course not. A responsible teacher teaches you to fall and some less dangerous beginner stuff. I know that Dim Mak stuff is available out the wazoo, but, it doesn't mean I should hand out harmful info. like Halloween candy.


Now that statement was pure arrogance, and since you already know where I stand on that particular issue you realize that by insulting our experiences without defining your own, you lose substantial credibility with me. Let me cut it to you clearly, WTF is a completely different style then ITF, we share a name but few common grounds. We do both have a low block but they do not look the same. They are not performed the same, and obviously the goal is not the same. Therefore how can your interpretation apply to every martial art out there? It cant. The founder of our style wrote everything down for us, plus participated in the creation of videos so not only can we read the proper mechanics of a technique, we can also watch a proper technique. There is no guessing, we dont have to make up stories about "what if" it is cut and dry, it is universal(within ITF) and it is all logical.

If that was an example of one of your deadly techniques then Im not worried about missing much.

[Damian Mavis]

"It was a frustrating experience for me too when the truth showed up."

Heh, ok I'll just repost my last question.

White belt, what are your sources for such an interesting interpretation of those movements. Or is that a personal interpretation on your part?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Marginal]

Originally posted by white belt


As far as my sharing deadly techs., would you teach a beginner in Judo a choke or sleeper hold the first day?

To be fair, anyone on the street knows that choking someone will kill them if done lng enough.


I know that Dim Mak stuff is available out the wazoo, but, it doesn't mean I should hand out harmful info. like Halloween candy.

Personally I find it more interesting that experienced instructors are willing to publicly discuss this subject, but you cannot.


I requested the Won Hyo info. in sincerity and now it appears that is somehow an indicator that I can't help think you guys through a possible obscured app.?

Um, you were launching into lengthy lectures on the subject well before I asked my questions. One would assume you had some idea what you were talking about before you'd resuest info on the pattern you'd been discussing at such length. Regardless, it's not relevant to my question. (Look at my first post. I even quoted the part of your post I was wondering about.)


I then SHOULD ask questions to give the circumstance the respect it deserves.

So you were just being disrespectful before? That doesn't make much sense.


Sorry if I upset your applecarts, but, you were commenting on having no apples.

No, I was asking how a two handed submission hold can be a good position to be punching and kicking your opponent from. (But then, I'd also like to know why the opponent's supposed to be rendered immobile in that case.) I was giving you a chance to actually provide some info that'd allow this discussion to progress. The fact that you elected to say nothing is rather telling.


I know men who have studied the same patterns I have for 20-25 yrs. It was a bitter pill to swallow, but, they are now seeing past the beginning apps. taught them.


There's nothing bitter or otherwise to swallow. You've provided no information whatsoever.

[white belt]

Late lunch break and more fun with e-mail I see.

First off there is nothing arrogant about being honest and following basic guidelines. There are people who see these chat rooms who may not have your respect for others safety. Now why not make them work for the info. we could so readily dish out? If they do work hard, maybe the process of such will help them develop your level of empathy. Not so snooty really. The higher ups in our art forms don't want their students to be malicious is all. If I try to be a good student by following that premise, and am found arrogant, well, ok then.

My source, Damian, is many years of practice and verification by a Korean Master who is a bit older. He used many of the older versions of our "modified" moves / basics to teach soldiers how to rapidly destroy another and keep moving on to their objectives.

The encyclopedia by the late Grandmaster Choi is wonderful. I have similar collections of basics and patterns by different stylists, Richard Chun, Mas Oyama, etc. These are meant to perpetuate the "Do" applications of the older "Jutsu" moves so that us common folk might reap the mental and physical health benefits of the moves. This is why the modern forms don't translate well into real world, spontaneous self defense. It's not that the founders did not know what they were doing. Not by a long shot. The genious of what they did was to bring a form of self cultivation to the masses without the sharp edges. I see many people helped by this. I am just simply saying that the moves are deeper in context to hand to hand apps. than most realize and this is why some practitioners don't give much weight to their patterns usefullness if physically attacked. The "Jutsu" methods were trimmed by Gichin Funakoshi to teach as a part of the Japanese phys. ed. program. It is documented that Mr. Funakoshi taught General Choi his system up to at least 1st Dan. General Choi added some elements of his other martial art background, but, kept the "Do" aspect prevalent so he to could help his countrymen see the benefits much like the Japanese version. Pretty admirable stuff to say the least. Now how many people would show interest in excercise that injures so easily as the older "Jutsu". Not near as many that can have some extra cushion against permanent physical damage. Judo did away with leg submissions long ago because of injuries being so common. How many people from all walks of life do Tae Bo as compared to full contact kickboxing? The old masters knew that the forms and their apps. followed the same psychology. Not everyone can handle it and some should not be given it.

Look at the low block I shared and work it with a partner or don't. No biggy. But, at least now I have made a sincere effort to connect forms info. with some obviously hard working and proud TKD people. No harm done, right?

If any of you like good studies on such subjects, take a look at "Japan's Ultimate Martial Art" by the accomplished Darrell Max Craig. He also has a book out titled "Shihan-Te. The Bunkai of Karate Kata.". If you look real close you will see some disturbingly familiar techniques.

Good day,
white belt

[white belt]

Marginal,

Submarginal here. Thank you for throwing your apple cart at me. As you can tell, I need the exercise. Cup didn't help much. Need ice. Ow.

If you can show a little patience, I will get around to looking at the forms app. you questioned. If not interested, I understand. Try plugging in the mechanics of the kick / punch part I posted after I get some more ice.

Thanks for your reply,
white belt

[Damian Mavis]

Your source was a Master of WTF TKD?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Marginal]

Originally posted by white belt


If you can show a little patience, I will get around to looking at the forms app. you questioned. Thing is, you don't need to. All you have to do is answer the question I posed. Does a circular block ending up as a submission take two hands to apply?

If so, how are you punching someone while applying it? Why aren't they punching you in the face etc while you're dinking around with their leg?

None of that's even treading into "dangerous" territory, so I'm not sure why a response needs to take long at all. First part can be answered with a yes or no after all. Doesn't require rambles about applecarts at all.

[Bagatha]

He cant answer you, he is in a completely different style, it would be like one of us going to the kung-fu section and trying to give them advice on how to do their patterns. I would be irritated if he tried.

[Marginal]

Yeah, so I've heard. On the other hand, since he already spent quite a bit of time expounding on the three moves in question, and their hidden power upon his entry into the thread... He might as well finish the thought.

[white belt]

Damien,

That is correct. From Moo Duk Kwan. The part of the kwan that went with the other kwans and left Tang Soo Do. I'm sure you know the history. This man is in his 60's and he has three other brothers who are masters. They are phenomonal. I consider it a privilege to be able to ask him about the matters I have tried to share, and held suspicions about, for years. Don't you at least find it strange that the forms, as taught, don't fit real combat very well? That is no coincidence. The old masters were highly intelligent.

I think this WTF, ITF, USTU, etc. stuff has gone so far as to blind some good people. Organization is fine, but, it obviously has factionalized to a point where knowledge takes a back seat to banners at times.

Too bad about the turn this thread has taken. I will admit first hand that I am not intelligent enough to have made up the tech. info. I have shared. The techniques are already there for the discovering. If I discover gold, it helps me little to try and convince others that I myself made it. It also doesn't matter which side of the mountain I found it on, or does it?

Respectfully,
white belt

[Damian Mavis]

Well, I like ITF and all but I am part of several different martial arts organisations and am not defending ITF style for the sake of loyalty. What I still disagree with (assuming you are correct in your and your Masters interpretation) is that forms are a bad way to learn those manouvers. If you are correct about that move being a submission type move I don't think practicing it as a pattern will train you to use it effectively.

I take submission grappling and BJJ, the only way I learn to submit my opponents with a particular technique is by actually trying them at full power and speed on another person that is resisting me at full power and speed. The thing I like about submission grappling is that you can safely (most of the time) use full strength while "sparring"... unlike TKD where if I don't want to hurt my training partner I pull my kicks and use partial force.

See my point of view? Whether your move is a simple block or an intricate submission I just don't think practicing them as patterns is going to help you fight for your life effectively.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Bagatha]

Well said.

[white belt]

Damian,

I agree! A partner who works with you on the move is much better prep. It is like the difference between shadowboxing and a good sparring partner. Shadowboxing only gives you part of the skill possible that can develop, but, it can still do some damage. Not as much, but, some.

My GM. has told me that each military interpretation of the moves, in the forms, were practiced THOUSANDS of times WITH a partner at his lessons. Sometimes a whole session was spent on one move for hours on end. Considering the potential apps, that had to be tough on the body even with control. Imagine being forced to do a 1000 cross body armbars back and forth with a partner. Even with control, my arm / elbow would be cooked! Back in the day, before he came to the states, he was required to do this by his teacher. Even with their seriousness, there were still some unfortunate injuries in practice. Taking turns trapping the kick, like I described, and doing a lock on the leg, while the kicker is still standing on one leg, would start to suck well before a 1000 for me! I like training, but, I'm just not that tough. Now mind you this type of training was happening back in the 1950's while the factions / kwans / organizations were still pretty much getting along. This knowledge couldn't have been isolated to one kwan! It defies logic.

BJJ, Submissions, all good grappling helped spark a new interest in stronger self defense. It also made SOME people more aware that something was / is wrong with the "Do" version of the forms. I have seen way more people drop out of the grappling classes around here just because it makes them sore, is too hard, etc. They then show up at McDojangs and pretend to be fierce because it is all they can handle. Funakoshi, Kano, Choi they were pretty much on the mark about Joe Public. Have you noticed this big trend of 45 minute classes that is happening all over? Used to be all places had 1.5-2 hr classes. The forms apps. scare off some TKD guys if I am not careful when showing them. It's a shame, but, I have my limits too of course. 1000 leg locks? Not yet!

Have you checked out Matt Furey's Combat Wrestling stuff? I have been testing it out periodically over the last couple of years and it has helped my gas tank on the ground and doing TKD. Karl Gotch and Farmer Burns are / were some pretty interesting men.

Time to turn in,
white belt

[fissure]

This type of application theory has been going on in Japanese Karate circles for years. I see it is now making its way into TKD.
Both individual tech. and whole poomse are sifted through to find "deeper" meaning. i.e. the block is as it appears on its face, or the chamber of the block IS the block and the rest of the motion represents any number of things, depending on who you are talking to.
In the second instance forms become whatever the proponent wants them to be - blocks are joint locks, turns are throws, single motions turn into multiple counters and attacks.
The series of knife hand blocks in Balsek (Bassai/Passai) are transformed into a complex series of traps and counters.
The argument is that these are the "true" meanings and applications of forms and tech. Since no one is still around who was present for the creation of these movements-it is impossible to know. As such any application that is thrown out could be the right one, or it could be useless crap! I've seen some that looked like they would hold water, and others that where a definite forced fit.
Bottom line is these discussions have been going on forever in other striking arts, TKD, at least WTF TKD, has been too focused on competition to bother with much of anything else.
None of this stuff is new or revolutionary. Don't let any one try to dazzle you with this much debated "knowledge".

[white belt]

Thanks fissure,

I have seen both sides of the coin too. When applied, some don't hold up. The ones I catch and ask my GM. about, I don't have to get out two words or 1/4 of the way thru the demo. and he either shuts me down or gives me the affirmative. This may seem sneaky (and risky) on my part, but, I have taken ones that have passed the "live" test before approaching him and mixed these in with a couple of "forced fits". Again, before I finish the move, he knows where I am going and he always gives me the "good" or "bad" answer to the appropriate technique application. He hasn't thrown me a bone yet in over two dozen moves. Very strange.

Some TKD people are real hard on anyone who brings up Mr. Funakoshi, etc. The countries had to have traded martial knowledge. I am pleased with learning period. If an ITF or WTF or a Karate stylist has some useful info., I am not going to let knowledge take a backseat to politics. If my GM. doesn't approve of something from an outside source, I keep it out his Do Jang out of respect.

The comment about WTF TKD focusing too much on sparring is right as far as I am concerned too. My teacher bucks the trend and keeps healthy forms focus with the sparring training for which I am grateful. I have seen the trophy chasing focus really ruin some potentially good programs at other schools. Too much of any one thing throws development out of balance for me. I feel the Olympics are fine and all, but, I think TKD will suffer if proper focus isn't regained.

I agree that there is a mixed bag out there and I won't practice anything unless there is sufficient reason.

Thanks again,
white belt

[TkdWarrior]

wow heavy words exchanged in with good description from both sides who won actualllly ? me :D lol
u know for all this time i actually thought that forms r for balance, stability n learning movements of actual techniques.
with little head work u can make those forms as a technique in fight, with little devising of form tech u can use it as more advanced set of techinques too.
as far as blocking thing i figured out one thing that Leg is more powerful than hand in an average circumstances(shall i claim "Eureka"??:D) so blocking a kick with a hand with normaly end up having broken hand(arm) when u block kick in any of case u never meet force with force u actually shut the force from where it starts(the base).
the kind of explaination Mr White Belt gave i hav learnt that in my starting days of learning using it as a violent(as u put it) but i learnt that this can be done by my teacher only n doin that against him will hav me handicapped forever :) so comes the headache part of shutting reaaaaaaal force with damn good speed....
anyways i come from ITF background, forms r not just for showy woyy stuff, but it didn't contain "those deadly hidden messages" as u say it...
from wat i learnt in taiji form is that at least there's 5 diffeent techniques revised or taken wholely... its not big deals about secrets(and it's very very bad way of letting ur secrets out in Internet world, who knows damian, bagatha or me or kenneth might be thinking of taking over the world :D ;))
-TkdWarrior-

[TkdWarrior]

well tho watever i said in last post was umm err...may be.. lol
but i respect Mr White belts efforts for saving TKD it's more than kick or olympic :) :asian:
sshhh don't tell anyone my plans to learn secrets n taking over the world :p :rofl: :D :p :rofl: :D j/k
-TkdWarrior-

[white belt]

Well, there goes the free world! Finally a REAL sense of humor! Leg locks are known to be hard to gauge is one of my main points. Knees can be slow to warn the nervous system. Any TKDists have any knee experiences out there with grappling?

white belt

[TkdWarrior]

<! Leg locks are known to be hard to gauge is one of my main points>
this is one point i didn't get it...mind explaing

<Any TKDists have any knee experiences out there with grappling?>
My bad...that opens up my old wounds
don't knee any wrestler i remember once i was against my freind wrestler who was lots of manuvering things just shoot in my legs, i just went low n opened up my stance(very bad move) took care of his hands n tried to sprawl n i dunno wat comes over me i just kneed him(thought i had good shot at his face(bad move again))
before i knew i was down ...n had to tap out :(
-TkdWarrior-

[white belt]

TKD Warrior,

I was referencing knee injuries from an overzealous training partner. Attacks to the knee. Not attacks with the knee. As far as the wrestler goes, did you get a rematch? Sounds tenacious.

white belt

[TkdWarrior]

lol oh i got it now...well i hav very good training partners so never had any sort(serious) of injury, the match was with my freind so i can any numbers of rematches as i wished(till he wins :D)
but wat i learnt while sprawling don't knee the wrestler :D n as somebody already had thread about "Distance is ur freind" i started believing in this from that moment :) it's a nice experience...
-TkdWarrior-

[fissure]

The comment about WTF TKD focusing too much on sparring is right as far as I am concerned too. My teacher bucks the trend and keeps healthy forms focus with the sparring training for which I am grateful. I have seen the trophy chasing focus really ruin some potentially good programs at other schools. Too much of any one thing throws development out of balance for me. I feel the Olympics are fine and all, but, I think TKD will suffer if proper focus isn't regained.
Sparring, self defense, tech, application and the art in and of itself should always compliment each other in a well taught system. I agree most WTF dojang forsake Martial Arts for Martial Sport.
This at first glance helped TKD. None can argue TKD's rapid rise. It has out paced all other MAs in outright growth. As such the WTF's goal was accomplished. On further inspection however the lure of Olympic greatness has for most become the sole purpose and benefit of TKD. In the long run this will kill the Martial Art of TKD.
I realize that for many (myself included) this situation is troubling. However my personal training is as it was 20+ yrs ago, if others are only interested in sport how does that really matter to me?
It can be hard not to come down on commercial sport TKD schools, but you have to remember that 99% of trainees don't really want to train in combat based MA. Just because this is your goal or mine, the fact that it is not their interest can't be your concern.

[fissure]

Myself and other have had this type of disscusion in the Karate forum in the past. It seems to be a problem that affects all MAs, not only TKD.
Botom line is you have to get kids in class to pay the bills. The lure of trophies does this quit well.
This fact may be sad, but it is totally true.

[white belt]

This is for The Sensei, Bagatha, Damian, TKD Warrior, Marginal, Fissure and anyone else interested.

I inquired about the description of some basic moves in Won-Hyo to make sure semantics / names weren't obscuring the verbal description for me. The ITF name for Inner Forearm Circular Block is called an Inward Forearm Block in my system / school (WTF). This difference in names, for the same block, could have caused me to assume you were speaking of something else. I don't like to assume and I apologize for not being familiar with your set of terminology. If my inquiries were out of line somehow, again my apologies.

It is my understanding that preceding the step leading to move 19 draws the feet in close proximity of each other sometimes called natural or walking stance in some systems. Initiating any techniques from this stance in hyung, tul, etc. is really good training for mimicing being relaxed in everyday life and not in a ready battle position. Training to respond to an attack when not prepared stance wise. This makes sense in the form when thinking of it as punctuation between attackers. I don't see this much at all in my forms and it strikes me as very good practice for real life. What I am saying is most problems arise when not in a fighting stance outside the Do Jang. I kind of like this concept myself.

The sequence The Sensei asked about is a defense against a right arm pull / grab to your left arm mainly at the wrist area. Rather than meeting force w/force the left foot steps with / towards the attackers energy. The defenders left hand pulls back at their own wrist while the rotating knife hand edge goes around the thumb side of their wrist and the hand then grabs their wrist / forearm while breaking the attackers initial grasp. The thumb can be pressed into Pericardium 6 to secure a firm hold. Doing all this rotates the attackers arm so that their elbow points down and palm up if continuing a chambering motion to your hip. The blocking arm is then brought up with the thumb knuckle inner wrist bone area as a striking / pressing /raking tool to the attackers elbow area. If you go above your own elbow about one thumbs width, you will find triple heater 10 at the triceps attachment to the elbow. The lateral sideways raking of this point will cause the arm to straighten somewhat and should be held momentarily to control the attacker for the front snap kick to their Liver 13 point at the 11th rib area. A strike to this area, in general, hits the liver or spleen directly. The temporary securing of the arm while kicking to this area increases the likelihood for internal organ damage much like impact increases with two objects traveling towards each other. Once the kicking foot is returning, the grip on the attackers wrist is released and the right arm continues it's blocking trajectory while pressed against the attackers arm effectively sweeping it across his centerline, across the front of his body and aside. This serves two main purposes. First it turns his torso CCW and causes not just his right arm to be cleared from immediately reattacking, but, it also turns his left hand and left hip / leg away preventing an immediate kick from that leg. The right leg is where he will be placing most of his weight momentarily due to his hips reflexing backward so good chance of no immediate kick threat there either. Second the target/s for the punch are now wide open momentarily. That chambered left hand, which released his right arm so it could be swept away, is now slammed in reverse punch fashion as your body falls forward from the right front snap kick. The point spleen 21, which is also just around the back of Liver 13 still on rib 11, can be fully exploited. It is about halfway between the armpit and hip bone. A good old fashioned blow to the kidney will work just as well if he is really turned by the block. If all this makes solid contact and he is still standing I myself would run!

I posted earlier on this thread on the kick punch mehanics and they gel nicely with this apps. explanation. I have very similar moves in my Pal Gae hyung. We have more in common with ITF hyung than maybe first thought.

The position of forms being impractical is both true and untrue depending on their usage and understanding. I understand more in a general sense where some of you were coming from. If I stopped at just thinking there was only a punch or kick coming at me on this series of moves, I would definately be on the near useless side of the fence too. When Damian mentioned the necessity of having a live partner to practice with or the deeper apps. aren't much better, that too I agree with. But, I feel that once having done so, the solo practice is more enhanced and then more constructive.

If you are tempted to ignore or discard my explanation, due to my prior poor attempts at humor, I understand. For those of you that try this, please don't think me rude or condescending for suggesting caution for your training partner. That is a very powerful form you guys have. I'm impressed.

Bagatha, if you look at the sparring against punchers thread, and read my explanation, you will notice how much this Won-Hyo forms app. has in common with my sparring tactics. If you make it hard for your opponent to use all of his weapons by crossing up his stance, he has a harder time dealing with your assault and delvering his. When your Instructor mentioned how forms help sparring, maybe he is meaning on a positional level? Just a thought.

respectfully,
white belt

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by white belt

.. ..a defense against a right arm pull / grab to your left arm mainly at the wrist area....... Training to respond to an attack when not prepared stance wise. This makes sense in the form when thinking of it as punctuation between attackers. ....

I shall respectfully defer any comment on forms/ patterns to the respected pros here. :asian:

As for defence against a right arm pull/ grap to your left, how often does such attack occurs where the attacker stands at a distance, leans forward to grap your arm and leaving himself wide open for you to kick his spleen out? If that ever occurs then have a ball and kick a hole in him as you have described. :)

What if he is already close to you or has moved close to you where kicking is extremely hard? I suppose you can step back to chamber a side kick to trash his knee. If he is in front (or side then turn to face), then straight punch to the face, jab to the eyes, long fist to the throat, upper cut (to the jaw or straight to the solar plexus), swimming elbow, horizontal elbow, rising elbow, stomp on the insteps, knee to the groin, palm/closed fist to the groin.

If he swings to the back while holding onto your left arm, then back elbow, reverse headbutt ( be prepared to be cut by his teeth), palm/fist back strike to the groin, stomping the insteps, backfist to the temper , backkick to the knee or higher

Attacks seldom come in single, the moment you are grapped you have not 1/2 sec to lose. Neutralize instantly or suffer the immediate follow-up. NO TIME TO LOSE!

Sorry for taking the discussion away from 'realistic applicatioon of TKD forms', sooo I am shutting up and sitting down now.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by fissure

Myself and other have had this type of disscusion in the Karate forum in the past. It seems to be a problem that affects all MAs, not only TKD.
Botom line is you have to get kids in class to pay the bills. The lure of trophies does this quit well.
This fact may be sad, but it is totally true.

It is simply not realistic to emphasize the combat side of TKD when you are teaching kids. You wouldn't want your kids to learn to maim and destruct before they are mature enough. :)

Besides, you can pursue that in the self defence part of TKD. But seriously, being able to kill and maim, is not what it all cracks up to be. It is like the psycho greasing his guns all the time, hoping to defend his house againts an invasion. :D Not that I am some psycho, lol. But that really gets boring real fast. Seriously, how many ways can you seriously injure an attacker? And do you really look forward to that?

So, honestly, there is nothing wrong with the sport and performance side of TKD or any MA for that matter. Afterall, as you said, 99% of the students are not into combat fighting. There is nothing stopping those who want to pursue the deadlier side of TKD.

[fissure]

I'm having trouble finding the relevance of quoting my post in your last statement.
Perhaps you meant to quote the one I made prior? Either way you seem to be confused.

It can be hard not to come down on commercial sport TKD schools, but you have to remember that 99% of trainees don't really want to train in combat based MA. Just because this is your goal or mine, the fact that it is not their interest can't be your concern.
This is what I said concerning intense training, it's seems to have the same tone as your last posting.

[KennethKu]

Clicked the Quote button of the wrong post of yours. Sorry . :asian:

[white belt]

Kenneth,

Thanks for the reply. I agree wholeheartedly about not teaching kids maiming techniques. This discussion is in line with why the original Oriental pioneers altered their forms for generic phys. ed. for school children.

The application concerning Won-Hyo moves / reacts pretty fast when tried. I stacked it against other common responses in the Do Jang. As to what to do if this or that happens, that's why there are plenty of forms with different apps. I would wager. The kick works, with a fairly good chamber, and it applies pressure to the shoulder joint during the split second of arm retention. I have seen come alongs done to people as an initial response. Some were pretty effective when the user had a little element of surprise. I understand all moves have their inapropriate applications at times, even when really well planned.

Thanks for the feedback,
white belt