kempo and kenpo

[rachel]

What is the difference between the two? Any? None? I've heard bad things about Kempo, that it's not really karate. It's a joke.I go to a school for chinese Kempo. I really like it alot. I look forward to going but why do people knock it?

[Blindside]

Well, kenpo and kempo are technically the same things. It should be spelled "kenpo" but pronounced "kempo." Regardless of who is right about how to spell it, there has been an artificial division in how it is used in the US. The schools using "kempo" tend to be identified with traditional Japanese systems, an example would be Shorinji Kempo. On the other hand, kenpo tends to be identified with schools that are less traditional and have a more modern approach, Ed Parkers American Kenpo being a prime example.

The funny thing is within both camps (kenpo and kempo) are groups that say their stuff isn't "karate," so everybody is right. I wouldn't worry about it, if you are having fun and feel you are learning good material then do it.

Lamont

[Elfan]

More info than you probably wanted:

http://www.tracyskarate.com/FAQ'S/KENKEM.htm

Edit: One of the mods know why the link doesn't seem to work right?

[Zoran]

You mean this.
http://www.tracyskarate.com/FAQ'S/KENKEM.htm

[Elfan]

Ya thats it :-D

[Kempojujutsu]

It's been awhile since I have been on here. I feel a little lost. But any way, most people who spell it Kempo are closer to Okinawan Karate than Japanese karate. Japanese karate comes from Okinawan karate.
Bob :asian:

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Japanese karate comes from Okinawan karate.
Bob :asian:

Well, if you really want to get technical, Funakoshi was the first to use the term Kara-Te. Before him, it was called Okinawa-Te and China-Te (really a rough translation). Karate, these days, is nothing more than a term used because of it's popularity (economics).

My general and very symplified understanding.

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Zoran

Well, if you really want to get technical, Funakoshi was the first to use the term Kara-Te. Before him, it was called Okinawa-Te and China-Te (really a rough translation). Karate, these days, is nothing more than a term used because of it's popularity (economics).

My general and very symplified understanding.

He started to ue the term Karate when he developed Shotokan which was a watered down version of Ryukyu Kempo to teach to school children. Kempo and Kenpo are the same and as mentioned before the more eclectic arts tend to use Kenpo and the more traditional ones use Kempo.

Cheers
Sammy

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by rachel

What is the difference between the two? Any? None? I've heard bad things about Kempo, that it's not really karate. It's a joke.I go to a school for chinese Kempo. I really like it alot. I look forward to going but why do people knock it?


The only people who would bag Kempo are Kenpo people. I have found though my training (did Kenpo, now do Kempo) that American Kenpo has developed a lot of (not all) arrogant instructors who believe that their art is the be all and end all and that nothing comes close. Ignore what others say and just enjoy your training, if it gives you what you want it is good.

Cheers
Sammy

[Kempojujutsu]

Actually the word is Ch'uan Fa which is Chinese for Kempo, this comes from Mandarin Chinese pronunciation which means "The law of the fist or fist law". The Cantonese pronunciation is kune fat. Okinawan's don't speak Japanese.
Bob:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Elfan

More info than you probably wanted:

http://www.tracyskarate.com/FAQ'S/KENKEM.htm

Edit: One of the mods know why the link doesn't seem to work right?

The apostrophe confuses it, unfortunately. There's a workaround. In this case you could use:
http://www.tracyskarate.com/FAQ'S/KENKEM.htm

(just add a [url ] tag before it and a [/url ] tag after it, not [url= ]). There's another workaround involving replacing the apostrophe in the URL with a special set of characters.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Nightingale]

The word itself has the same meaning no matter how its spelled.

Different styles use different spellings.

Every style has good points and bad points. Including EPAK. I wish EPAK had a little more groundfighting, because if I ended up going to the ground, I wouldn't know what to do, because its not a situation I've ever trained for.

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Zoran

Well, if you really want to get technical, Funakoshi was the first to use the term Kara-Te. Before him, it was called Okinawa-Te and China-Te (really a rough translation). Karate, these days, is nothing more than a term used because of it's popularity (economics).

My general and very symplified understanding.

Could you elaborate on the old names? Karate means "hands of china" or "china hands" so woudn't that be the same as "China-te"? ie china-te = kara-te But you are saying that that is different from karate.


that American Kenpo has developed a lot of (not all) arrogant instructors who believe that their art is the be all and end all and that nothing comes close.

I have met some *very* arrogant people in American Kenpo but I would be cautiaous about implying that any art has more arrogant people in it. I'm sure there are plenty of arrogant BBJ/TKD/Judo/Kempo etc. people.


Thanks arnisador.

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Elfan

Could you elaborate on the old names? Karate means "hands of china" or "china hands" so woudn't that be the same as "China-te"? ie china-te = kara-te But you are saying that that is different from karate.


As I can't find the reference to this, I will try to do it from my falible memory.

Kara-Te actually means "empty hands". The kanji that was used in Okinawa before Funakoshi, was different. Funakoshi changed this when he started teaching to the Japanese. As no Japanese person would learn a system called China-Hands, he changed to Kara-Te (empty hands). What the actual term was in the Okinawan language, I'm not too sure of. I do recall something about "To-De?", but don't quote me on it.

This question would be best answered in the Karate section of the forum. My knowledge of Japanese/Okinawan systems and history is limited.

[Elfan]

Ahh I see what you mean now. "Karate" means *both* "china hands" and "empty hands" depending on what character you use. Funakoshi popularized the "empty hands" version for the reason you stated. As I recall the kenpo crest uses the "china hands" version but thats my own fuzzy memory at work.

[Michael Billings]

I also remember something about To-De ... not to be confused with Toady, one who does someone elses bidding.

As one of those American Kenpo instructors, I feel offended. I know it was not a personal attack, or was it? I have been in the martial arts over 30 years, and know whereof you speak ... but it is definitly not just American Kenpo people, and I don't like the generalization. I loved my Chinese Kenpo, Taekwondo, and Shotokan.

There have always been a few bad apples in every Art, a few upper belts who were aloof and condesending toward other systems. There does tend to be an opinion that "what I do is the best", otherwise they would not continue training. It has only been the last decade that "cross training" and the JKD model has really come into general acceptance.

We respected everyone else and did not demean anyone in other Arts, in my more traditional art of Shotokan. In Taekwondo we just did not know any better (that anything existed outside of Taekwondo.) The Chinese Kenpo school I attended for 14 years was very respectful towards others and what they had to offer. The "young Black Belt superior attidude" was quickly squelched by my Seniors.

Sorry, guess you hit a nerve. I have enourmous respect for my teachers, and their teacher. I would not think of demeaning anyone's art, OK, I take that back, I have said negative stuff about Take-One's-Dough, but in jest, and have said an equal amount of good things about it.

Oos,
-Michael

[rmcrobertson]

What Michael said.

Other than that, I ain't touchin' this can of snakes.

[Michael Billings]

Zoran, I hope you know that the 1st sentence was the only one directed at you. Not my inexcusable rant. Sorry everyone.

It was my understanding from research done years earlier that Funicochi lobbyed to have the Kanji character changed, and it was an actual act of the Diet (legislature) to change the meaning of the character from "Okinawa Hand" to "Empty Hand". Seems like the conflict was not with "China Hand", but with the subjugated Okinawans. They did not want this to be "Okinawa Hand".

I am no expert in Japanese history of Karate, but remember references to this over the years. Hope this does not muddy the waters more.

Oos,
-Michael

[arnisador]

There are indeed threads on these issues in the Karate forum and in the Japanese Martial Arts--General forum, e.g.:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1832

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

Zoran, I hope you know that the 1st sentence was the only one directed at you. Not my inexcusable rant. Sorry everyone.



Yup, I figured. We all need a good rant every so often.:D

Arnisador,
Thanks for that link. Now I know I wasn't going crazy. ;)

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by sammy3170

The only people who would bag Kempo are Kenpo people. I have found though my training (did Kenpo, now do Kempo) that American Kenpo has developed a lot of (not all) arrogant instructors who believe that their art is the be all and end all and that nothing comes close. Ignore what others say and just enjoy your training, if it gives you what you want it is good.

Cheers
Sammy

I can't quote for all arts just from my experience so don't take offence. It's just that I have met numerous American Kenpo people who are arrogant including a 7th degree black belt who told me it was his right(because of his rank) to be arrogant. Just an observation and no offence was meant.

Cheers
Sammy

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Blindside

Well, kenpo and kempo are technically the same things. It should be spelled "kenpo" but pronounced "kempo."

Uuuuh No.
There are 2 ways to pronounce the same word. Kempo and Kenpo are both correct, just as the word for Japan in Japanese is either Nippon or Nihon or the word for newspaper can be Shinbun or Shimbun.



Originally posted by Blindside

Regardless of who is right about how to spell it, there has been an artificial division in how it is used in the US. The schools using "kempo" tend to be identified with traditional Japanese systems, an example would be Shorinji Kempo. On the other hand, kenpo tends to be identified with schools that are less traditional and have a more modern approach, Ed Parkers American Kenpo being a prime example.

Uuuuh No again.

Nakamura Shigeru of Okinawa Kenpo used the Kenpo pronunciation and he was not part of any modern group or Ed Parkers American Kenpo .




Originally posted by Zoran

Well, if you really want to get technical, Funakoshi was the first to use the term Kara-Te.

Actually Itosu Anko was the first followed by Hanashiro Chomo then most likely 3rd runner up was Funakoshi.



Originally posted by sammy3170

He started to ue the term Karate when he developed Shotokan.............

Funakoshi didn't "develop" Shotokan per say. His students started calling his art Shotokan........


Originally posted by sammy3170

Kempo and Kenpo are the same and as mentioned before the more eclectic arts tend to use Kenpo and the more traditional ones use Kempo.



Refer to the statement about Nakamura Shigeru.

True there are different factions of Kempo/Kenpo some are legit others are not.
Is Kempo/Kenpo the same as Karate? Yes.
Mr. Nakamura of Okinawa Kenpo taught the same kata that were taught in a Shorin Ryu Karate dojo.
So why the confusion in the US?
The old name for Karate was Ryukyu Kempo/Kenpo Tode (karate=China hand kanji ) Jutsu.
So you have both Karate and Kempo/Kenpo in the same name...........people have started to claim the 2 are different in the US for political reasons and because their knowledge of basic Japanese is seriously lacking.

[Michael Billings]

I appreciate the clarification. There has been a split here in the Americas between Kenpo and Kempo. It was created on purpose as Edmund Kealoha Parker Sr. continued to develop his interpretation of Kenpo. All lineages, to my knowledge, that go directly back to him, post 1960, are spelled with the "N", not the "M". This has caused a definition change, BY PRACTICAL USAGE only. Not a change in what the word "means".

Thanks though for the clarification from someone who understands the literal meaning. I had no idea that any Japanese practitioners actually used Kenpo. I was familiar with both Ryukyu Kempo and Shorinji Kempo, but your insight and sharing are appreciated.

Oos,
-Michael

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

All lineages, to my knowledge, that go directly back to him, post 1960, are spelled with the "N", not the "M".

Nope :)

My Style is Kempo Ryu, and it can be traced back to Ed. Parker.

It's small admittedly compared to the might of some of the organisations, but you did say 'all'!

Ian.

[Michael Billings]

I stand corrected.
-MB

[CraneWings]

Kempo and Kenpo are pretty much the exact same same style. The only difference is that one is the spelling in Chinese (kempo) and one is the spelling in Japanese (kenpo). I also attend a Kempo school and don't let anyone ever put your style down. Because Kempo is a real style and I find it to be one of the Best. SO do what youlike, and don't listen to others and what they say!

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by CraneWings
Kempo and Kenpo are pretty much the exact same same style. The only difference is that one is the spelling in Chinese (kempo) and one is the spelling in Japanese (kenpo).

Actually that's not correct. Japanese use both the "N" & the "M" sound when pronouncing Kenpo/Kempo. It depends on several things, not the least of which is the region in Japan you happen to be in.

[Zoran]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Actually that's not correct. Japanese use both the "N" & the "M" sound when pronouncing Kenpo/Kempo. It depends on several things, not the least of which is the region in Japan you happen to be in.

Agreed :)

I believe the approximate Chinese version of the word Kenpo would be Chuan Fa. Just don't quote me on it. I am not an expert on either Japanese or Chinese languages.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by sammy3170
The only people who would bag Kempo are Kenpo people. I have found though my training (did Kenpo, now do Kempo) that American Kenpo has developed a lot of (not all) arrogant instructors who believe that their art is the be all and end all and that nothing comes close. Cheers Sammy

Unfortunately Sammy, I agree with you. Many AK Black Belts are missing in the "respect for other's and their arts" categories. Still, there are many, many great Kenpoists that are much more open minded, and considerate of others regardless of their preferences. I did see you post "not all" were arrogant, thank you for allowing each person to make or break their own posture, and then judge them on what they say or do.

We all love our respective Arts and instructors, that is a given, but it appears we still need some schooling on our people skills in dealing with others respectfully when debating issues intelligently.

:asian:

[bahenlaura]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Unfortunately Sammy, I agree with you. Many AK Black Belts are missing in the "respect for other's and their arts" categories. Still, there are many, many great Kenpoists that are much more open minded, and considerate of others regardless of their preferences. I did see you post "not all" were arrogant, thank you for allowing each person to make or break their own posture, and then judge them on what they say or do.

We all love our respective Arts and instructors, that is a given, but it appears we still need some schooling on our people skills in dealing with others respectfully when debating issues intelligently.

:asian:

Amen!

:soapbox:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Zoran
Agreed :)

I believe the approximate Chinese version of the word Kenpo would be Chuan Fa. Just don't quote me on it. I am not an expert on either Japanese or Chinese languages.


Your right it is Chuan Fa in Chinese.

[Katie Simmons]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
The word itself has the same meaning no matter how its spelled.

Different styles use different spellings.

Every style has good points and bad points. Including EPAK. I wish EPAK had a little more groundfighting, because if I ended up going to the ground, I wouldn't know what to do, because its not a situation I've ever trained for.

If you go to the ground, strike Strike STRIKE. Never play the grappling game and get back on your feet as soon as possible. Train from the ground up occasionally; just lie on the ground and have one of your classmates attack you from a standing position, as if she had taken you down and was proceeding to kick the crap out of you. See if you can get her off you (using whatever means necessary) long enough for you to get back on your feet, to more equal ground. Also, if you can find a skilled grappler or wrestler to work out with, not to actually learn to grapple or wrestle, but to see how you can use your striking skills against them. It helps, believe me. Most grapplers don't know how to deal with a striker.

[Matt Stone]

It seems to me, not that I am a chuan fa/kempo/kenpo practitioner at all, that the bigger issue is one of linguistic fluency.

The argument, at least what there is of one, regarding the legitimate use of the phonetic representation of "kem(n)po" stems from the fact that we are all using the romanization of the sounds uttered in reference to the characters used, and trying to cite said romanization as the definitive transliteration for universal use...

Personally, regardless of what others say (and I have been on the receiving end of many peoples' rebuttals to what I am about to say), that a martial artist practicing an Asian martial art is failing in his or her education by not at least exploring some of the language of the country of origin of their art. If you study a Japanese art, learn some Japanese. If your art is Chinese, Indonesian, Filipino, then learn some of the appropriate language. If, for no other reason, than to sound authentic, a student almost has a responsibility to do so. Especially those who have their eye(s) on becoming an instructor one day. There is nothing worse in my book (as if my book were so large or important) than an instructor who is ignorant of some part of their art. An instructor should strive to master the physical technique, to become an authority on the historical relevance of his/her art, to be fully versed in the strategies and philosophies (if either exist) of his/her art, and to at least speak the relevant words and phrases in his/her art's mother tongue with some degree of fluency (i.e. correct pronunciation, correct grammar, correct understanding).

Just my 2 yen. Take it for what it is worth, or not.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by CraneWings
Kempo and Kenpo are pretty much the exact same same style. The only difference is that one is the spelling

hmm...no. American Kenpo is not a style, it is a system. I cannot speak for Chinese Kempo or anything else thereafter, because I honestly do not know.

[bahenlaura]

Originally posted by Chronuss
hmm...no. American Kenpo is not a style, it is a system. I cannot speak for Chinese Kempo or anything else thereafter, because I honestly do not know.

:)

"The Kenpo SYSTEM is based on the outer limits of simplicity and the starting point of complexity."

"Kenpo's true value is not in what you KNOW, but what you DO."

Senior Grand Master Ed Parket.

:asian:

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Katie Simmons
Most grapplers don't know how to deal with a striker.

That is true to a point. These days, there are more MMA practitioners that are comfortable on the ground and in stand-up fighting. Ground fighting needs to be addressed, as it seems your school does. :)

My point is; I try to assume the worst when dealing with a confrontation. The few times I made an assumption of weakness in my opponent, was when I learned the hard way not to. What you do and believe in, while training, will follow you in the real world.

[Katie Simmons]

Originally posted by Zoran
That is true to a point. These days, there are more MMA practitioners that are comfortable on the ground and in stand-up fighting. Ground fighting needs to be addressed, as it seems your school does. :)

My point is; I try to assume the worst when dealing with a confrontation. The few times I made an assumption of weakness in my opponent, was when I learned the hard way not to. What you do and believe in, while training, will follow you in the real world.


I wholeheartedly agree with you; it is always necessary to prepare for the worst. I didn't mean to imply that a ground fighter would just curl up into fetal position and weep for forgiveness if you used strikes on him. The point I was trying to make is that you should use your own strengths rather than playing your opponent's game. Striking is effective against any opponent; in my experience, it just tends to frustrate groundfighters more because they can't get close enough to take you down. In an actual altercation, I would not assume that my opponent was only a grappler and didn't know how to strike. But I sure as hell wouldn't stay on the ground to find out.

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Katie Simmons
I would not assume that my opponent was only a grappler and didn't know how to strike. But I sure as hell wouldn't stay on the ground to find out.

Agreed :asian:

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
It seems to me, not that I am a chuan fa/kempo/kenpo practitioner at all, that the bigger issue is one of linguistic fluency.

The argument, at least what there is of one, regarding the legitimate use of the phonetic representation of "kem(n)po" stems from the fact that we are all using the romanization of the sounds uttered in reference to the characters used, and trying to cite said romanization as the definitive transliteration for universal use...

Personally, regardless of what others say (and I have been on the receiving end of many peoples' rebuttals to what I am about to say), that a martial artist practicing an Asian martial art is failing in his or her education by not at least exploring some of the language of the country of origin of their art. If you study a Japanese art, learn some Japanese. If your art is Chinese, Indonesian, Filipino, then learn some of the appropriate language. If, for no other reason, than to sound authentic, a student almost has a responsibility to do so. Especially those who have their eye(s) on becoming an instructor one day. There is nothing worse in my book (as if my book were so large or important) than an instructor who is ignorant of some part of their art. An instructor should strive to master the physical technique, to become an authority on the historical relevance of his/her art, to be fully versed in the strategies and philosophies (if either exist) of his/her art, and to at least speak the relevant words and phrases in his/her art's mother tongue with some degree of fluency (i.e. correct pronunciation, correct grammar, correct understanding).

Just my 2 yen. Take it for what it is worth, or not.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Yiliquan1,

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately since english is a universal language, many don't feel inclined to learn other languages and that is why there is such a gap in understanding other cultures. If one studies a foreign art, at least they should be famliar with basic vocabulary and terminology of their art.

Respectfully,

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Yiliquan1,

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately since english is a universal language, many don't feel inclined to learn other languages and that is why there is such a gap in understanding other cultures. If one studies a foreign art, at least they should be famliar with basic vocabulary and terminology of their art.

Respectfully,

Well, Peter, English is only universal to English speakers and those who have no choice but to deal with monolingual Americans...

It is my understanding that many Japanese (as an example) study English not so much because they want to, but because it is much more common for a Japanese to make the effort to speak English than it is for an American to speak Japanese...

Personally, I think foreign language study in public schools should start far earlier than the 8th grade, and should include more languages than French, German and Spanish. Given that the bulk of the world's population speaks Chinese (or some dialect of it), that would be a good start. I understand that there may be little practical use for it within the borders of the US, nor so much use in business relations. The point is simply that we are focusing on other languages that we do not necessarily (with the exception of Spanish) encounter on the corner of Main Street USA already, so why not go after others that are more widely spoken?

Whatever. I detest rabid monolingualism. While I am far from fluent in other languages, I can at least get around and feed myself in 2 - 3 besides English.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Katie Simmons
I wholeheartedly agree with you; it is always necessary to prepare for the worst. I didn't mean to imply that a ground fighter would just curl up into fetal position and weep for forgiveness if you used strikes on him. The point I was trying to make is that you should use your own strengths rather than playing your opponent's game. Striking is effective against any opponent; in my experience, it just tends to frustrate groundfighters more because they can't get close enough to take you down. In an actual altercation, I would not assume that my opponent was only a grappler and didn't know how to strike. But I sure as hell wouldn't stay on the ground to find out.

THe attacker may not be standing.

Check out.

MMA vs KungFu
BJJ vs Karate

On the Download section, at the left side column,
http://www.bullshido.us/

[Hollywood1340]

Yes, those videos are hilarious. You know I'm glad to see we have people who take thise videos seriously. Somebody has to. It's been said a thousand times :It's the PERSON not the Art/style/whathaveyou

[Johnathan Napalm]

Aren't we the genius?

The point is not about which art vs another art. It is about how grapplers fight.

She posted about using kicks to defend a standing attacker. But that is not the only scenario in ground fighting. The video is for that reference. That site is biased in favour of MMA, but that is not my point.

[Seig]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Aren't we the genius?
Was that really necessary?



The point is not about which art vs another art. It is about how grapplers fight.
I am truly pleased that people are beginning to understand that. Do not think for a second, I am not saying that you are, that all grapplers are ground fighters.


She posted about using kicks to defend a standing attacker. But that is not the only scenario in ground fighting. The video is for that reference. That site is biased in favour of MMA, but that is not my point. You are correct, that is not the only scenario. What is your point? Politely, please.