Pressure Points in Karate

[Mark Kline]

""The movements in karate katas contain the angle and direction to attack pressure points"

Thoughts? Disagree? Agree? I am interested in your opinion

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Mark you should talk to Gou Ronin in the Kenpo section. He know Ron Chapel and plays with Sub Level 4, pressure pionts in Kenpo.

The Renegade "Hartman"

[GouRonin]

I can relate to the pressure points in American Kenpo techniques. While I have been playing with the stuff that Ron Chap'el has offered to me, my instructor has been working on them himself. Both my instructor and myself also have been doing some training in Systema and looking at the these points. Unfortunatly for me I am his test dummy. However it does give me a first hand experience. While I have never been knocked out, even in boxing, I have been given a standing knock out with the simplist of American Kenpo techniques. So, if you look at it, the first techs that are taught to yellow belts contain these points for use.

However, many of the American Kenpo Kata (We call them forms and sets) are comprised of motion to teach motion. They are not like other Kata of other styles which have an imaginary opponent to fight. Not till the later forms are they "Live" or against imagined opponents. I have been shown though that these points exist in Kata/Form and many people are taught them but they are only "seen" when you look for them.

The Renegade himself has shown me things such as "Trapping Hands" which contain pressure point strikes. It seems to be all in the application of the techniques and the points stuck.

Hope this helps.

[DWright]

Greetings,

One of my Arnis students is an advanced student in pressure points. I was impressed at how easily he was able to incorporate pressure points into the drills and forms.

I have also started using pressure points in my Karate applications. It works well for us.

[GouRonin]

As I stated earlier. I think pressure points have value. Especially in contact manipulation. Added to other arts I think they increase the value of the art's defense. However, alone, I don't count on them to be the "end all be all."

As far as these no-touch knock outs, well, I have seen some weird stuff go down and I am not one to discount anything but until I feel I will remain skeptical.:confused:

[DWright]

Our group hosted a private seminar with a local Arnis instructor, and he demonstrated a "parlor trick" ,his words not mine, that amazed all of us.

It was off a wrist grab. cross grab, same side, it didn't matter.
With a gentle tap on the inside of the attackers wrist, with two fingers and everyone who grabbed him let go.

He said that there are two points that make the hand release.
I was suprised at how lightly he had to touch to make me let go.
No pain, but I could not hang on.

Neat stuff!

[GouRonin]

If you find it works for you and it works consistantly than I would not have a problem with no longer calling it a parlour trick and throw that baby in your repetoire! ;)

[DWright]

Good point. However I intend to put it to a better test.

I want to try it on someone who isn't familiar with it.
If it works on an unsuspecting person I might have more faith in using it.

[Cthulhu]

Definitely a good plan. A lot of the so-called qi/ki/chi abilities are really performed by unconcious participation of the person being demonstrated upon. I could invoke 'Sifu' Mooney's name again, but that's a whole 'nother can o' worms.

Cthulhu

[VampyrSoul2000]

I know that in some of our forms (katas) many of the blocks we do are targeted at the major nerves to paralys the limbs of the would be attacker. Many of our strikes are also the same.

[arnisador]

There is an online program for Ryukyu-te:
http://okarate.com/index.htm
It is not clear to me if Okarate is an art of which the grappling techniques are merely a subset though it appears from http://okarate.com/about_us.htm that this is the case.

[RyuShiKan]

Well I have to say that the Okarate page is "interesting" to say the least.

"Interesting" in the fact that the techniques on the sample section I saw were a little "too similar" to techniques my teacher introduced to the US about 30 years ago.
In 14 years of living in Japan and meeting many of the noted Karate masters of Okinawa I have yet to see techniques similar to the ones my teacher does.
I know which pirated tape of my teachers that those techniques came off of as well.
Some of the techniques on that site are actually done incorrectly by the way. # 3 to be specific.
In the second picture of #3 the defender has his elbow too high and with the wrong grip. If the Uke (attacker) were too clentch his fist it wouldn't be good for the defender and that is just for starters, although I can't see his feet I would bet they are not correct as well.

I am almost surprised he didn't swipe our name too.
Ours is called RyuTe Renmei (Reg. Trademark) and his is called Ryukyu-Te............pretty close.
Could thing our Assc. has a licensed trade mark on that name or I bet he would have gone for that as well.

[Battousai]

Doing number 2 on a woman like that is rude!
None of these techniques used pressure points. Wrist locks against the bone maybe, but generally ineffective ones at that. All of the locks require an extreme amount of strength to break, strength that most males and almost all females don't have, which makes them lack value. The people doing the techniques in the pictures were inept, and the attackers didn't even look like they were in pain. Bad website.

[RyuShiKan]

Actually if the techniques in the pictures are done "correctly" they are highly effective and extremely painful and don't require a great amount of strength.

[meltdown51]

I have been to some George Dillman seminars and he has knocked me out using pressure points so I know they work. I dropped like a rock. Check out his website at
www.dillman.com

Joe

[GouRonin]

I don't think anyone debates the use of pressure points but rather the ability to use them in a confrontation.

[meltdown51]

Gouronin
I have incorporated pressure points in what I do. I see you are from London, do you train with anyone locally in this, as I know there is a club in London that teaches this that is quite knowledgable on the subject.

Joe

[GouRonin]

I am in London. I am assuming you are going to say "Steve Stewart's Modern Martial Arts."

Am I correct?

[migo]

Getting back to pressure points in Karate, the Karate-Do Kyohan shows some pressure points. I haven't read it but I trust the person telling me that it shows them, especially as they are listed in the index. You might want to look into getting a copy of it.

[GojuBujin]

There are attacks to many vital / pressure points in Goju Kata (where else would you hit)

Read the Bubishi, pressure points forever.

Michael
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

[Chiduce]

I agree that the Bubishi Text is a great source of information on pressure point striking, history of the martial wayand it's tradition in accordance the white crane system, monk fist boxing and the like! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[meltdown51]

Yes

Steve is the man in London

Joe

[GouRonin]

I spent 6 months at SSMMA. I left just because it wasn't the environment I was looking for. I completed my contract and moved on. However Steve was very nice to me while I was there and treated me fairly considering the conditions that I came to him with. He works hard on the material Dillman has presented him with and has a very successful commercial school. I wish him nothing but success in whatever he chooses to do.

I am still very leary of the effectivness of pressure point use in actual confrontation. I do not debate that they will work, just the circumstances under which they will work.

[sweeper]

I can understand the argument against pressure points in stand up outside of striking range but why wouldn't you be able to use them in ground fighting? In a ground fight the problem isn't always not being able to make contact but rather leverage and speed for a strong hit (and pressure points don't nessisaraly nead either)

[Deathtrap101]

I dont know many presure points but on that i do know i have used in a confrontation, it wasnt really life or death i was just helping some kid in my phys ed class. The teacher was gone and we were in the room with the matts on the floor, one of my classmates came up behind another kid, wrapped his arms around his neck and feet around his legs, they both fell and started to roll around. Watching it go on for long enough and the guy in the hold apparently wasn't having much fun. I simply knelt down and a pressure point i was taught in some of the takedowns we were learning, i grabbed his elbow and pressed on the back of it whith my thumb, he kinda yelled and instantly let go. Its the only one i know but ive got kids to there knee's using it, others its alot harder to use on. My sensei couldnt seem to use it on me but he could find MANY other ones to use.

[Matt Stone]

In Yiliquan, we make use of pressure points extensively (even though this is the karate forum, I figured since Kenpo/Kempo was in this thread, too, it would be okay if I chimed in...).

We have three levels of points - Stunning and Painful, Temorarily Disabling, Killing and Crippling.

In our forms, we acknowledge four levels of breakdowns - Obvious (punch is a punch), Hidden (punch is a block), Secret (throws, breaks, joint locks) and Mysterious (striking points).

Every strike is meant to go to some striking point. My teacher has always quoted his teacher as having said:


If you do not strike a vital point every time you strike, you may as well slap your opponent across the face.

The forms (and I do not want to debate forms again :D ) contain the strikes and the angles that allow for the proper application of the strikes. Without a teacher that knows the applications, they will be lost to the first group they are not taught to. Subsequent "generations" will then also be without that information, and so on.

Once you have been taught the principles of form breakdown, it is easier to understand other forms, even from other styles, though it is unlikely you will be able to unlock all the information contained in them...

Just my devalued 2 yen...

:samurai: :samurai:

[Mark Kline]

Matt,

I agree wholeheartedly with you. How do others feel about this?

Mark

[RyuShiKan]

I remember in America in the late 70's and early 80's when everyone was interested in Sport Light/No Contact Point Tournaments and Ninja stuff and nobody in the western karate world was interested or could actually do TuiteAtemi/Kyusho. (They, Atemi/Kyusho, are two different things by the way, most people confuse atemi points & kyusho points.....but that's another topic)

My teacher was the first person in America to introduce and actually give detailed instruction in the theory and application of karate kata in regards to tuite/atemi/and kyusho. When he first came over to the US it was a rather difficult time for him since most people were still in the point tournament and ninja craze and most hadn't even heard of tuite/atemi/and kyusho let alone have any interest in it.
It is really amazing to me how far this idea and concept has spread.

[Mark Kline]

Robert,

Who is/was your teacher. I am interested to know. Please elaborate on the Atemi/Kyusho part of your note as well.

take care!

Mark

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Mark Kline

Robert,

Who is/was your teacher. I am interested to know. Please elaborate on the Atemi/Kyusho part of your note as well.

take care!

Mark

I am a student of Taika Oyata. (see my webpage/profile for more info)

The atemi/kyusho explanation is rather long and I am pretty lazy when it comes to typing and explaining stuff.
Suffice it to say they are different from each other and many "kyusho people" use the term kyusho when they are, more often than not, referring to an atemi area.

[Matt Stone]

I would imagine (not being much of a karate guy, and only having the briefest of exposure to it) that the atemi would be striking areas that are anatomically vulnerable (i.e. solar plexus, eyes, temple, etc.), but not specifically related to nerve, blood or acupuncture meridian striking...

But I'm probably wrong.

:D

:samurai: :samurai:

[RyuShiKan]

Matt,

we can go over that stuff next time we meet up.

[Jim Greenwood]

So what is everyones views about Kyusho and it's effectiveness and use? If you study it how do you train with it and does it work well for you? If you don't study it why not add it to what you currently do?

Looking forward to eeveryone's feed back.

[DavidCC]

My teacher is a ceritfied instructor in KI.

We do Shaolin kempo.

The combination of the 2 bodies of knowledge is great. Many of our techniques already used targets very close to points. Minor alterations in sequence and targets are producing excellent results.

http://www.youtube.com/v/UjdY_Csq-B8

[Jim Greenwood]

Your instructor wouldn't happen to be Shawn Steiner would it? I'm also a CI in Kyusho International. Shawn is a good good guy and a good instructor, I've known him for years.

Let's talk about how and what techniques using the points help what you are doing to make it more effective... or if you are studying points from a certified kyusho instructor from one of the well known groups that teach kyusho and you are having trouble getting them to be effective at all. If you have learned from a good teacher and still are having trouble getting them to work. I'm not just talking KOs either, that has very little to do with how kyusho can help you in a real fight. ;)

[DavidCC]

Yes, it is :)

I can;t see youtube from work so I linked that video without making sure, it's his isn't it? LOL

Are you going to Ohio next wekk?

[DavidCC]

Let's talk about how and what techniques using the points help what you are doing to make it more effective... or if you are studying points from a certified kyusho instructor from one of the well known groups that teach kyusho and you are having trouble getting them to be effective at all. If you have learned from a good teacher and still are having trouble getting them to work. I'm not just talking KOs either, that has very little to do with how kyusho can help you in a real fight. ;)

I'm headed out the door right now, but in general I'd say using point knowledge has made the techniques more consistently effective ie a punch to the ribs vs a punch to liver 13. "ribs" is vague, and you can hit the "ribs" and get 3 different effects.

Also the finishes of the techniques: "knife hand to the neck" gets a lot more specific and effective.

[Jim Greenwood]

Yes I'm going to Ohio next week. Can't wait to train wiht everyone and seeing everyone again.

[suicide]

does anyone have a link to the pressure point chart ?

[Kyoshi]

Any acupuncture charts will work - but you need to know/discover which point is working and how it is working - touch/hit/brush ;)

Mark - what is you own oppinion on this ? :)

[Joab]

To be perfectly honest, I believe trying to hit "pressure points" is a waste of time. And time is really why it is that. You don't have the time to try to hit pressure points, you need to move in and hit or kick wherever the opening is and forget about trying to make contact with any pressure points. At least that is what I was taught by two teachers I respect greatly, and makes sense to me.

[Kyoshi]

To be perfectly honest, I believe trying to hit "pressure points" is a waste of time. And time is really why it is that. You don't have the time to try to hit pressure points, you need to move in and hit or kick wherever the opening is and forget about trying to make contact with any pressure points. At least that is what I was taught by two teachers I respect greatly, and makes sense to me.

You do have time - often people confuses; confrontations, assaults, combat, fight - they all move in different areas of comfort. In confrontations and assualt, you have time - whereas in a combat / fight the difficult of such application increases!

[K-man]

To be perfectly honest, I believe trying to hit "pressure points" is a waste of time. And time is really why it is that. You don't have the time to try to hit pressure points, you need to move in and hit or kick wherever the opening is and forget about trying to make contact with any pressure points. At least that is what I was taught by two teachers I respect greatly, and makes sense to me.
Takes no longer to hit an area rich in PPs such as the temple, neck, floating ribs or lower abdomen. If you connect, bonus, if you miss you still have the same force of strike had you just attacked an opening. No PP exponent is going to wait for a particular point to be exposed. They will either create an opening or use an available one. :asian:

[marlon]

I'm headed out the door right now, but in general I'd say using point knowledge has made the techniques more consistently effective ie a punch to the ribs vs a punch to liver 13. "ribs" is vague, and you can hit the "ribs" and get 3 different effects.

Also the finishes of the techniques: "knife hand to the neck" gets a lot more specific and effective.

David this was a very interesting direction that stopped. Could you continue it.

Respectfully,
Marlon

[Decker]

Pardon my butting in, but from this book I read, "The Secret Art of Pressure Point Fighting" by Vince Morris, pressure points are basically physiologically critical points of human anatomy.

To what I know, in this case, for a "knife hand to the neck", one could aim at the general neck area and hit muscle and cause some damage, or one could aim at the "pressure points" beside the windpipe, and hit a carotid artery (there should be one at each side) and cause an instant knockout or a major stun at best, death at worst.

Hope that was helpful. Thanks for reading.

[SahBumNimRush]

There are differing view points in my Dojang about the use of pressure points. In my personal experience, there are those that work on everyone, nearly everyone, and only on some people. What works to disorient one person, may not do ANYTHING on another.

That being said, I use them as an addition to my techniques. As the example stated previously about striking ribs vs. LV 13. If I were striking the ribs already, why not have a more precise target to strike that MAY work more effectively on SOME people.

There are different types of "pressure points," IMHO. Nerves, arteries, and other vital points (temple, trachia, solar plexus, etc.) and then there are acupuncture points. Vital points work on everybody, but the Nerves, arteries and acupuncture points have varying degrees of success for multiple reasons. Not everyone has a nerve or artery in the same place, so finding it in the heat of combat is difficult. Some people are more sensitive to these areas as well, even if you can find them. Acupuncture points are found by using cun measurements, which are different in size depending on the opponent. There are landmarks on the body to help find them, but this also makes targeting them in the combat difficult.

So for these reasons, I don't reccomend relying on them, BUT I would encourage people to add these points as TARGETS of your own techniques.

Oh, and btw, this is my humble opinion. I have no FORMAL training in specific pressure point striking. I am formally trainined in acupuncture, medicine, and anatomy/physiology however, so I think I know a little bit about the points themselves.

[K-man]

In Yiliquan, we make use of pressure points extensively (even though this is the karate forum, I figured since Kenpo/Kempo was in this thread, too, it would be okay if I chimed in...).

We have three levels of points - Stunning and Painful, Temorarily Disabling, Killing and Crippling.

In our forms, we acknowledge four levels of breakdowns - Obvious (punch is a punch), Hidden (punch is a block), Secret (throws, breaks, joint locks) and Mysterious (striking points).

Every strike is meant to go to some striking point. My teacher has always quoted his teacher as having said: "If you do not strike a vital point every time you strike, you may as well slap your opponent across the face."

The forms (and I do not want to debate forms again :D ) contain the strikes and the angles that allow for the proper application of the strikes. Without a teacher that knows the applications, they will be lost to the first group they are not taught to. Subsequent "generations" will then also be without that information, and so on.

Once you have been taught the principles of form breakdown, it is easier to understand other forms, even from other styles, though it is unlikely you will be able to unlock all the information contained in them...

I have included the above quote because it is so true. The highlighted para is the crux of the matter. Most instructors haven't got the first idea of the vital points and the styles that are focussed on the sport aspect of MA have no need for vital points. IMHO, in kata all strikes, kicks and all "blocks" are directed at specific points. :asian:

[seasoned]

I have included the above quote because it is so true. The highlighted para is the crux of the matter. Most instructors haven't got the first idea of the vital points and the styles that are focussed on the sport aspect of MA have no need for vital points. IMHO, in kata all strikes, kicks and all "blocks" are directed at specific points. :asian:
And logically, the end proof, is the fact that old traditional martial arts were form for the sole purpose of defeating an aggressor quickly, with no wasted movements. :asian:

[SahBumNimRush]

I have included the above quote because it is so true. The highlighted para is the crux of the matter. Most instructors haven't got the first idea of the vital points and the styles that are focussed on the sport aspect of MA have no need for vital points. IMHO, in kata all strikes, kicks and all "blocks" are directed at specific points. :asian:


How very true! MA, in general, has become so watered down over the years because of its focus (i.e. adapted to be taught to school children, sport, etc.. .) However, the foundations of the forms are still there, and even without a knowledgable instructor, with a little bit of knowledge, investigation and work you can find many of these meanings "hidden" within the forms. Too bad ever new student didn't get a decoder ring with their uniforms when they started!