Why would you

[terryl965]

Here is the scenerio,

You are looking for a school for you and the family, you walk in and see this overwieght instructor not out of shape but overwieght, you talk to him and get all the info. and stay and watch a class and you are absolutely amazed about the way the class is ran, all the kids are doing what is ask of them and are being polite. Then you stay to see the advance belts and are even more amazed at the quality of there workout, so you stay another hour to watch the adult class it is a bit slower but still the workout is great.

You also find out that all but two instructor are in the mid to late 40 or older and this is a major concern for you.

You go back and talk again with the head instructor and enjoy the converstation and he gives you pricing like this, 6 days a week $75.00 a month, 3 days only $50.00 a month you reply well that is cheaper than everybody how come and you are given that you try and keep your pricing down so everyone will be able to offord classes.


Then out of the blue you say to the instructor one of these phases.

A) I would train with you but I just can't get by that you are overwieght, therefor I will be training at studio B even though they are a lesser school

B) I like what you have to offer but since you are less expenses I would probaly get better instruction from the higher price school

C) All of your instructor are kinda old so I would be better off with the younger instructor.


Please explain which one would be your answer and if not any of them what other choices do you have

[Ceicei]

Here is the scenerio,

You are looking for a school for you and the family, you walk in and see this overwieght instructor not out of shape but overwieght, you talk to him and get all the info. and stay and watch a class and you are absolutely amazed about the way the class is ran, all the kids are doing what is ask of them and are being polite. Then you stay to see the advance belts and are even more amazed at the quality of there workout, so you stay another hour to watch the adult class it is a bit slower but still the workout is great.

Since the quality of their workout is "very good and I'm amazed", then my impression of this school is good.


You also find out that all but two instructor are in the mid to late 40 or older and this is a major concern for you.
Why would this be a major concern for me? Considering I am 40 and studying martial arts, age is the least of my concerns as long as the quality of the class is "amazing to me" and classes are well run.


You go back and talk again with the head instructor and enjoy the converstation and he gives you pricing like this, 6 days a week $75.00 a month, 3 days only $50.00 a month you reply well that is cheaper than everybody how come and you are given that you try and keep your pricing down so everyone will be able to offord classes.

Pricing sounds reasonable. If they're able to conduct amazing and well-run classes, then I have no objection.


Then out of the blue you say to the instructor one of these phases.

A) I would train with you but I just can't get by that you are overwieght, therefor I will be training at studio B even though they are a lesser school

B) I like what you have to offer but since you are less expenses I would probaly get better instruction from the higher price school

C) All of your instructor are kinda old so I would be better off with the younger instructor.


Please explain which one would be your answer and if not any of them what other choices do you have

Most of my questions are not "out of the blue". If I always say things that are on my mind without carefully considering the ramifications, then I'd be in trouble long ago with the "foot-in-mouth" disease! :) Besides, these questions are kinda rude when phrased that way....

I have no way of knowing if the overweight instructors may have some physical issues that I am unaware. Age is a factor that cannot be controlled. Sometimes an older instructor may be a better instructor than a younger, more flashy instructor because of experience. Younger instructors do have a place--they need the opportunity to teach, and may have the endurance to continue with children's and youth classes (especially if they teach several classes in a row). If my overall impression was good to start with and the only so-called objection is weight and age, then my concerns aren't really serious enough to be a barrier. If these concerns were enough to make me take second thought (as stated in the original post with the supposed scenario), then perhaps I'm being too shallow to realize the reality of life that each person has to face.

- Ceicei

[FearlessFreep]

Not to answer the question but here is something my instructor mentioned a few weeks ago.

He said when he was looking for places to train he finally stopped looking at the instructors and instead started to look at the students. If the instructor is great, then that means he trains well. If the students look good, then that means that the instructor teaches well. If the instructor is too good, it could be that they are training a lot, taking time away from teaching.

I mean, are you hiring a martial arts hitman, or a teacher? There are a lot of great people who can't teach.

[Shaderon]

Terry I'm with them *points upwards* I wouldn't say no based on the reasons you said, I'd look at the students and the prices and the quality of training. If I liked the school I'd say yes.

I'd be interested in your reasons for asking this?

[Drac]

Then out of the blue you say to the instructor one of these phases. I would train with you but I just can't get by that you are overwieght,

Would you say that to Sammo Hung?????

[Andrew Green]

A) I would train with you but I just can't get by that you are overwieght, therefor I will be training at studio B even though they are a lesser school


This sort of depends on what role the instructor puts himself in. If he is just there to teach, it might not be a terrible concern. Many coaches in other sports are not in great shape, but then again Martial arts instructors tend to feel the need to project a image of being better then there students, which coaches in other sports don't.

I would consider it a downside though, this is a fitness field. I wouldn't want a personal trainer that was out of shape, or a Doctor that smoked, drank and had a double Big Mac for lunch everyday.



B) I like what you have to offer but since you are less expenses I would probaly get better instruction from the higher price school


Yes, the old perfume buying principle. If it is cheap, it's not worth buying. Slap a different label on it and triple the price, exact same perfume will sell better.

People are weird some times.



C) All of your instructor are kinda old so I would be better off with the younger instructor.


Some people are old, even if not chronologically, but they are old. Some people have had a lot of birthdays, but are still young. While Physical age shouldn't matter much, a persons personality does. If someone wants a "younger", in spirit, instructor with a more energetic approach, I wouldn't hold that against them.

On the other hand, in martial arts, its generally the young instructors that get age held against them. Too much "Mr. Miyagi" image as the ideal instructor.

Schools with 16-17 year old instructorsa are often called McDojo's and what not. Yet, how old is the average swimming instructor? most are 16-18, and yet kids still learn to swim.

Back in school, I remember always learning more from the younger teachers. There where exceptions on both sides of course, Older ones that still where passionate about what they where doing, and younger ones that had made a poor career choice. Again, this kind of turned into a younger personality though.

But if a person was impressed by a class, then the class most be doing something they like. But it depends on why they where impressed, was it because the class looked fun and enjoyable, yet informative? Or where they impressed in the same way you might be impressed by a military drill squad's discipline, but have no desire to go through the training to get there yourself?

[terryl965]

Terry I'm with them *points upwards* I wouldn't say no based on the reasons you said, I'd look at the students and the prices and the quality of training. If I liked the school I'd say yes.

I'd be interested in your reasons for asking this?

i have been a school owner for years teaching for over thirty and have heard it all and was wondering if this is the norm, or is it just in my area that this happens.
Yes I'm overwieght and yes I have been told this by alot of people but really had no bearing on the scenrio just out of curiousty. That is all, converstation and trying to understand perseption from students.

[CoryKS]

My answer would be D) Where do I sign?

Seriously. Good instruction at good prices, with instructors who have been doing it for a long time. Am I missing something?

And the weight issue for me is not really a factor. My take on the martial arts as a newbie was that the knowledge base is supposed to offset physical characteristics - knowing where to strike or bend what and in what direction means you don't need to brute force the opponent. We have some larger folk in my school, and the only mystery to me is how they keep it on doing the stuff we do.

People are funny.

[CuongNhuka]

Those people are what is called a "knuckle head". I'd say something else, but I fear the mods (lol) http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Kacey]

Too many people see "overweight" and assume "incapable" despite any and all of the evidence to the contrary. As people age, then tend to gain weight more easily; they are also more likely to have injuries that affect their ability to maintain their fitness. The senior master instructor in our association is overweight - but that's due largely to knee injuries sustained in the armed forces that caught up with him and reduced his ability to sustain long-term activity of the sort needed to keep weight off as he aged. In no way does it detract from his ability to instruct - and he teaches an incredibly intense class.

If the person who is checking the class asks any of the questions above, discuss with them the reason(s) the instructor may be overweight that may be public knowledge (ignore any that are not) and if that doesn't convince them - then let 'em go; they're not going to make a good student for that particular student at this point in their own lives, because they are allowing a single factor - and one that is pretty minor in the overall scheme of things - to override all of the other factors that can show quality of instruction.

[Drac]

Too many people see "overweight" and assume "incapable" despite any and all of the evidence to the contrary. As people age, then tend to gain weight more easily

Amen Sister amen...

[Blindside]

Alot of schools promote martial arts to "get in shape" or "fitness," and if that was the case, then seeing an overweight instructor appears pretty contradictory to me.

Lamont

[Shotochem]

Aw Terry, A few pounds overweight is nothing. I've trained with many people who were big and heavy who could run circles around the 20yr olds. As long as you are no Obese and sucking wind every 2 min. I would say sign me up where you are.

I'm getting close to that big 40 and have a bit of a gut myself. Don't be so self conscious, anyone who knows anything about MA would not underestimate someone like you.

It's not the age its the mileage,

-Marc-

[Andrew Green]

Too many people see "overweight" and assume "incapable" despite any and all of the evidence to the contrary.

Depends on motivation I suppose.

As I said, I wouldn't be able to fault a family for using this as criteria, if part of what they are looking for is a fit, healthy role model for there children, then fitness and appearance of fitness might be important.

If they where looking for a "good Christian school", then I imagine having a atheist head instructor might be a deciding factor, despite having nothing at all to do with martial arts.

Some might even go gender based, if a parent was looking for a strong female leader to teach there daughter, thats there choice as well.

When you join a club, you are not just selecting a style and training methods, you are selecting a instructor, not just on there technical merits all the time, but on the things that matter to you beyond that.

Would you take classes from someone that was a ex-con? Perhaps for something major? They've done there time, and are free and clear according to the legal system, would that be a issue? It's got nothing to do with there ability to teach martial arts?

Or how about this case: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6404229.stm
4-year old pictures, that where done in her spare time, and people are making a big stink about it. Does it in any way effect her skills as a teacher? No, but apparently it is a big issue for some.

[tshadowchaser]

You also find out that all but two instructor are in the mid to late 40 or older and this is a major concern for you
All of your instructor are kinda old so I would be better off with the younger instructor.

they would still be children to me and I an learn from children if they are have knowledge

I like what you have to offer but since you are less expenses I would probaly get better instruction from the higher price school
my ansewere then would be "OH you wanted the better (higher) grade of class. We have that but the price is 150 a month and we only offer it to those that want the best"

[kidswarrior]

My answer would be D) Where do I sign?

Seriously. Good instruction at good prices, with instructors who have been doing it for a long time. Am I missing something?

People are funny.

Right on, Cory. And I hear you Terryl. As a professional (day job) teacher, have likewise heard it all.

[Touch Of Death]

Here is the scenerio,

You are looking for a school for you and the family, you walk in and see this overwieght instructor not out of shape but overwieght, you talk to him and get all the info. and stay and watch a class and you are absolutely amazed about the way the class is ran, all the kids are doing what is ask of them and are being polite. Then you stay to see the advance belts and are even more amazed at the quality of there workout, so you stay another hour to watch the adult class it is a bit slower but still the workout is great.

You also find out that all but two instructor are in the mid to late 40 or older and this is a major concern for you.

You go back and talk again with the head instructor and enjoy the converstation and he gives you pricing like this, 6 days a week $75.00 a month, 3 days only $50.00 a month you reply well that is cheaper than everybody how come and you are given that you try and keep your pricing down so everyone will be able to offord classes.


Then out of the blue you say to the instructor one of these phases.

A) I would train with you but I just can't get by that you are overwieght, therefor I will be training at studio B even though they are a lesser school

B) I like what you have to offer but since you are less expenses I would probaly get better instruction from the higher price school

C) All of your instructor are kinda old so I would be better off with the younger instructor.


Please explain which one would be your answer and if not any of them what other choices do you haveInformation has no health issues. Its either what you want or what you don't want. I wouldn't worry about the instructors eating habbits, glandular problems, or what have you. You are there to learn the art. Do you like what you see or do you not like what you see.
Sean

[morph4me]

When I visit schools, I pay very little attention to the instructors,as I assume they know what they are doing, until they prove me wrong. I focus on the students, and when I give advice on people who are interested in the arts and are visiting schools I tell them to do the same thing. I want to see how the students act towards each other and the instructor, how they perform, and how many are sitting out with injuries, and base my opinion of the instructor on that.

I guess it all depends one what you're looking for. You can always let one of your young black belts teach them privately for triple the cost of a regular class if that would make them happy. tell them it's an elite class for the most discerning students. :uhyeah:

[jdinca]

None of the above. Sounds like a great school, where do I sign?

As for the age of the instructors, our average instructors age is probably now in the late 30's, early 40's. The school has never run so smooth...

[Brian R. VanCise]

Terry keep on doing what you do and take no notice if someone wants to go somewhere else. Always seek to improve your teaching, training and your individual goals. In doing so those that train with you will continually benefit. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

One of my instructors is a mountain of a man and would be considered large by even NFL linemen. However, anyone who knew how he moved would want nothing to do with him or would want him at your back if things went south. Size can be perceived in many ways and should not be perceived so narrowly. If someone chooses to do this then that is their choice to live that way. For myself I want to meet and know someone's spirit. Only then do I have a chance to know what they are like! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[bluemtn]

i have been a school owner for years teaching for over thirty and have heard it all and was wondering if this is the norm, or is it just in my area that this happens.
Yes I'm overwieght and yes I have been told this by alot of people but really had no bearing on the scenrio just out of curiousty. That is all, converstation and trying to understand perseption from students.


I don't believe in making excuses, Terry. My instructors are 40+, and some in the association are overweight. Also, most of them charge at most $60/ mo., no contracts. Would I have a problem with going to train with them? Just as long as the instruction is quality.

[Cirdan]

The club sounds simply excellent. Slightly steep prices tough.

[lostinseattle]

you are absolutely amazed about the way the class is ran, all the kids are doing what is ask of them and are being polite. Then you stay to see the advance belts and are even more amazed at the quality of there workout, so you stay another hour to watch the adult class it is a bit slower but still the workout is great.

You also find out that all but two instructor are in the mid to late 40 or older and this is a major concern for you.

You go back and talk again with the head instructor and enjoy the converstation and he gives you pricing like this, 6 days a week $75.00 a month, 3 days only $50.00 a month you reply well that is cheaper than everybody how come and you are given that you try and keep your pricing down so everyone will be able to offord classes.

Ummm ... I'd say, what do you have against fat people?

[tellner]

"I can certainly charge you double to work out with less-skilled twenty-somethings if it would make you feel better."

[lostinseattle]

"I can certainly charge you double to work out with less-skilled twenty-somethings if it would make you feel better."

A lot of people are probably taking MA to lose weight these days, judging by all the overweight people in MA classes that I've run into. (More than the general population in some classes).

Perhaps they don't want to study with an instructor who is overweight considering one of their goals is to lose weight.

If people's interest is health rather than self defense, an overweight instructor could be a major turnoff.

[MJS]

Here is the scenerio,

You are looking for a school for you and the family, you walk in and see this overwieght instructor not out of shape but overwieght, you talk to him and get all the info. and stay and watch a class and you are absolutely amazed about the way the class is ran, all the kids are doing what is ask of them and are being polite. Then you stay to see the advance belts and are even more amazed at the quality of there workout, so you stay another hour to watch the adult class it is a bit slower but still the workout is great.

You also find out that all but two instructor are in the mid to late 40 or older and this is a major concern for you.

You go back and talk again with the head instructor and enjoy the converstation and he gives you pricing like this, 6 days a week $75.00 a month, 3 days only $50.00 a month you reply well that is cheaper than everybody how come and you are given that you try and keep your pricing down so everyone will be able to offord classes.


Then out of the blue you say to the instructor one of these phases.

A) I would train with you but I just can't get by that you are overwieght, therefor I will be training at studio B even though they are a lesser school

B) I like what you have to offer but since you are less expenses I would probaly get better instruction from the higher price school

C) All of your instructor are kinda old so I would be better off with the younger instructor.


Please explain which one would be your answer and if not any of them what other choices do you have

The weight issue, while it is important to be in good shape, isn't too much of an issue for me. What can this person teach me? Does he know the material, can he apply it, and make it all work? Thats what matters to me. The same thing with the age. The pricing doesnt seem bad. Of course, that also depends on how long the classes are. Are they an hour? Are they 1 1/2hrs?

All that said, I would have to choose option D...yes, I'd train here. :)

Mike

[flashlock]

Slightly over weight with muscle underneath? No problem. Soft beer gut--I walk out.

[Sukerkin]

I'm with Coryks, kidswarrior, Tellner and all the others with positive things to say on this.

My sensei is approaching his 70's and I hope he has many more years tuition in him yet as I am far short of his abilities (and may never be his equal (which wont stop me trying to be as good)).

The whole point of martial arts is that experience is the key. Okay, if you're entranced by the flashy mixed-martial-arts 'ultimate fighter' nonsense then athletic prowess is important. Otherwise, if you're seeking the kernels of meaningful truth in an art then I want a tutor with some seniority.

I think a simplistic truism might be expressed something like "Ability to jump is not ability to teach".

[IcemanSK]

I'm sorry that I can't easily answer your questions at this late hour, Terry. However, I do have a thought. The majority of the audience for these questions are MA-ists: & seasoned ones at that! Most of us have seen great things from MA-ists that appeared out of shape. Most of us are a bit past a layman's opinion on such things.

I do think however, that a lot of folks think that MA instructors should look like Ernie Reyes Jr (or an old master) & feel that if folks don't charge much it's of less value. The sad part is, those folks go to the expensive school & get turned off to MA after spending too much.

It's usually an up hill battle. Many folks think "the grass is greener" when it comes to comparing MA schools. It does sound like these folks had something going on that had little to do with you, Terry.

Stay the course, my friend.

[Carol]

Personally? I joined MA because I wasn't happy with a lot of things going on in my life. Would an overweight instructor have turned me off? Maybe a bit. Then again, my attitude wasn't all that great either and I know I was not thinking of other people as well as I could have or should have.

When I was looking at martial arts schools for the second time, I had one person in mind that I really wanted to check out. The person in question is among the highest ranking and best known martial artists in the Boston area. I mentioned this to an acquaintance while talking on IM. My acquaintence's reaction was "Um, how big is that person anyway?" I told the person that I wasn't paying any attention to the gi size of my instructor, I was more concerned about teaching style and class schedule.

So...going forward? Now, I would definitely say "where do I sign". But going in as a moody, narrow-minded wanna-be white belt...I may have joined up anyway because I would have had the confidence that the instructor knows what he was doing and wasn't looking to wail on me. But I can't say for sure that I would have been as open-minded as I would like to admit.

[Shaderon]

If people's interest is health rather than self defense, an overweight instructor could be a major turnoff.

I'm sorry but my view is that if someone is in it for weight loss or health, then wouldn't it be better for them to join a gym and go to the included classes or hire a personal trainer every couple of months?

As a white belt, I wasn't put off my my instructors weight at all (My Aikido instructor was very portly), rather I thought "well if he can get a black belt looking like that, what could he have done if he was fitter?". It impressed me more that someone who is overweight can have a black belt, surely their muscles have to work harder than someone who isn't overweight? That's not my thoughts now BTW, it was when I first started.

[CoryKS]

I'm sorry but my view is that if someone is in it for weight loss or health, then wouldn't it be better for them to join a gym and go to the included classes or hire a personal trainer every couple of months?

I agree with this sentiment. Just because you can lose weight doing karate doesn't mean that it's the right choice as a weight loss program. Of course, that's at the discretion of the school owner - some do advertise the fitness aspect.

You know what else is good for losing weight? Marine Corps boot camp. You would not believe the number of obese kids that try to join the Marines in the hope that they're going to a fat farm. Few of them make it through basic. The drill instructors get really mad at the recruiters for signing these kids up.

[Andrew Green]

Anybody that thinks joining the marines and going through boot camp is a good way too loose weight needs to watch "Full Metal Jacket" until they smarten up. You don't go there to get into shape, you get into shape before you go there, or you come home early after one miserable experience.

[kidswarrior]

Personally? I joined MA because I wasn't happy with a lot of things going on in my life. Would an overweight instructor have turned me off? Maybe a bit. Then again, my attitude wasn't all that great either and I know I was not thinking of other people as well as I could have or should have.

So...going forward? Now, I would definitely say "where do I sign". But going in as a moody, narrow-minded wanna-be white belt...I may have joined up anyway because I would have had the confidence that the instructor knows what he was doing and wasn't looking to wail on me. But I can't say for sure that I would have been as open-minded as I would like to admit.

Thanks for the refreshing openess, Carol. Shows the MA transformation in process, which is not something that most of us have the ability to share about ourselves. We often want to believe and convince others to believe the best about us, that we know it all, that we always take the high road. In fact, we're all human, flawed, have shortcomings, and sometimes make selfish decisions.

As you implied, the best MA changes some of this over time and through training. And I was pretty much a narrow-minded wanna-be white belt, too. Ya spot it, ya got it, huh? :)

[xTNVx NirVana]

Too many people see "overweight" and assume "incapable" despite any and all of the evidence to the contrary. As people age, then tend to gain weight more easily; they are also more likely to have injuries that affect their ability to maintain their fitness. The senior master instructor in our association is overweight - but that's due largely to knee injuries sustained in the armed forces that caught up with him and reduced his ability to sustain long-term activity of the sort needed to keep weight off as he aged. In no way does it detract from his ability to instruct - and he teaches an incredibly intense class.

If the person who is checking the class asks any of the questions above, discuss with them the reason(s) the instructor may be overweight that may be public knowledge (ignore any that are not) and if that doesn't convince them - then let 'em go; they're not going to make a good student for that particular student at this point in their own lives, because they are allowing a single factor - and one that is pretty minor in the overall scheme of things - to override all of the other factors that can show quality of instruction.
You are very right. My Sensei is overwight, but he is very talented in Shaolin Kempo. He has a big belly, but that means nothing. He is a 5th degree black belt who has been invited to his 6th degree test. Size is not a factor if you have talent in the martial arts (Except for some things like flying kicks)

[lostinseattle]

You are very right. My Sensei is overwight, but he is very talented in Shaolin Kempo. He has a big belly, but that means nothing. He is a 5th degree black belt who has been invited to his 6th degree test. Size is not a factor if you have talent in the martial arts (Except for some things like flying kicks)

If you're a school owner in this day and age, though, you probably better lose the pounds otherwise you could find yourself losing your school to the local USSD. Not a lot of people seem to want to really learn self defense anymore. A LOT of people seem to want to learn MA to lose some weight and get into shape.

[xTNVx NirVana]

I'm not an instructor. I'm a young student if you will. Abd I learn MA for the experience and just to learn the art, not to lose weight. I'n not self concious as much as most people are. I'm actually a bit under average weight, so I'm in fine physically.

[lostinseattle]

I'm not an instructor. I'm a young student if you will. Abd I learn MA for the experience and just to learn the art, not to lose weight. I'n not self concious as much as most people are. I'm actually a bit under average weight, so I'm in fine physically.

Well, that's good for you. But for those teachers out there who are wondering why they're losing students, they might want to pay attention to this.

For example one local kempo teacher who has like 30 years teaching experience who coincidentally has a huge belly could no longer make enough $ to support his school, and is wondering why while the USSDs that have sifus with like 3 years experience learning, not even teaching, are popping up all around and doing great.

Well I hate to tell people but if people are taking MA to get into shape and lose weight (a lot of people are heavy), they probably aren't going to want a big old instructor teaching no matter how good he is.

[Xue Sheng]

Then out of the blue you say to the instructor one of these phases.

A) I would train with you but I just can't get by that you are overwieght, therefor I will be training at studio B even though they are a lesser school

B) I like what you have to offer but since you are less expenses I would probaly get better instruction from the higher price school

C) All of your instructor are kinda old so I would be better off with the younger instructor.


Please explain which one would be your answer and if not any of them what other choices do you have

Let them leave.

They already have a bias and preformed opinions of what they want. And those opinions are basically it is better to look good than feel good and young is better than old (in their opinion). They are more interested in the superficial than actually depth. Likely they will not stay long at any school.

If they are truly interested and truly serious about learning a martial art they will go to school B see that it is not as good as school A and return to School A.

Coming from CMA and knowing a bit about training in internal CMA styles finding an older teacher is generally a good thing. Sorry if this upsets anyone, but I would never go to a school that was run by a 20 year old Taiji, Xingyi, Yiquan, Bagua alleged master and I would have to watch a 40 year old closely and know a lot about his/her training before I committed as well.

[kidswarrior]

Let them leave.

They already have a bias and preformed opinions of what they want. And those opinions are basically it is better to look good than feel good and young is better than old (in their opinion). They are more interested in the superficial than actually depth. Likely they will not stay long at any school.

If they are truly interested and truly serious about learning a martial art they will go to school B see that it is not as good as school A and return to School A.

Exactly. Who needs a student who knows it all from Day 1? It's hard enough teaching new students who are receptive.


Coming from CMA and knowing a bit about training in internal CMA styles finding an older teacher is generally a good thing. Sorry if this upsets anyone, but I would never go to a school that was run by a 20 year old Taiji, Xingyi, Yiquan, Bagua alleged master and I would have to watch a 40 year old closely and know a lot about his/her training before I committed as well.

I've been waiting for someone to say this. Thanks, Xue Sheng. Are we so youth oriented as a society, and so far removed from the Asian roots of the MA, that we can no longer appreciate experience and wisdom, as I've always been taught is the custom in Asian culture? Don't mean to step on toes, but this is an especially important point to me.

[Xue Sheng]

I've been waiting for someone to say this. Thanks, Xue Sheng. Are we so youth oriented as a society, and so far removed from the Asian roots of the MA, that we can no longer appreciate experience and wisdom, as I've always been taught is the custom in Asian culture? Don't mean to step on toes, but this is an especially important point to me.

You are correct, it is very important because is people walk into a Martial arts school and say nope, the teacher is too old I am not going here then that would also meant that in todays society that a Morihei Ueshiba or a Sun Lutang would have few or no students while the Mc Dojos down the street that has 20 something teachers who teach Taiji or generic Kung fu would have more students that were learning much less and thereby undermining the martial arts or religating it to a dance class.

As an additional note, my first Sifu was from north China and said the following;

"There are no masters under 50"

He was referring to CMA since he knew littel of any other martial art outside of China.

As to the weight, same thing, if this logic is correct for today’s society says you have 2 schools right next door

School A is a Generic CMA school with teachers that look like Gymnasts that are all 20 something teaching Taiji, Yang 24 for example.

School B has Yang Chengfu as a teacher.

Then by the logic of the questions asked in the original post

School A has more students and School B has fewer.

Chengfu is old and overweight.

Weight and age of the teacher are just not criteria for choosing a good MA school in my opinion. And if someone walks in with that attitude, let them go it is not worth the argument.

[rmclain]

Well, that's good for you. But for those teachers out there who are wondering why they're losing students, they might want to pay attention to this.

For example one local kempo teacher who has like 30 years teaching experience who coincidentally has a huge belly could no longer make enough $ to support his school, and is wondering why while the USSDs that have sifus with like 3 years experience learning, not even teaching, are popping up all around and doing great.

Well I hate to tell people but if people are taking MA to get into shape and lose weight (a lot of people are heavy), they probably aren't going to want a big old instructor teaching no matter how good he is.

This is the trend I've seen over the years as well.

Most places I've personally seen with overweight instructors enroll children and teenagers as students, not adults.

R. McLain

[kidswarrior]

This is the trend I've seen over the years as well.

Most places I've personally seen with overweight instructors enroll children and teenagers as students, not adults.

R. McLain

Well, not to promote 'overweight' as an M.O. for instructors, but are we saying we implicitly value the teaching of children and teens less than adults?

I think in general, the answer is yes. I know when I tell people I teach HS, most seem only too willing to slot me into that 'unimportant' pigeonhole. But if I have a little fun with them, and instead choose to talk about my night job, teaching grad school for teacher credential/MA candidates, their eyes light up. Ooohhh, a professor! Personally I'd rather spend my time with the teens. Why do we value work with children less?

The answer may say a lot about our society and how it really feels about kids. :wink1:

[rmclain]

Well, not to promote 'overweight' as an M.O. for instructors, but are we saying we implicitly value the teaching of children and teens less than adults?

:wink1:

I can't speak for anyone else, but this is not what I am saying. I am implying that children and teenagers (or their parents) choose instructors based on different criteria than most adults looking for themselves.

Children are the most important because they represent the future. This should be more of a motivator for instructors to care for their own personal health. A student that looks up to their instructor and thinks, "Wow! Mr. X is a great karate man and teacher and I want to be like him," is a problem when this greatness is associated with adult obesity. While obesity doesn't take away from someone as a person, it does pose a significant health risk. Instructing students to physically protect themselves against attackers, stress, self-doubt (among other things), they should also be taught to defend themselves against future health problems, such as coronary heart disease, Type-II Diabeties, etc. These are all associated with being overweight.

R. McLain

[Shaderon]

This is the trend I've seen over the years as well.

Most places I've personally seen with overweight instructors enroll children and teenagers as students, not adults.

R. McLain


Doesn't this also emphasise the fact that children and teens are more open minded? Maybe this is why they learn better then us adults. Kids learn off whoever has the ability to teach them something, they learn off each other as well as adults, they don't measure a person's ability to teach by what they look like, well not usually, they measure it by what they learn and the rank of the teacher. To a child a black belt is the same as being a qualified teacher in a school, and a grandmaster is a headmaster I guess. Some adults could do with taking a page out of that book and remember once more to be open minded about learning.

[Shaderon]

I can't speak for anyone else, but this is not what I am saying. I am implying that children and teenagers (or their parents) choose instructors based on different criteria than most adults looking for themselves.

Children are the most important because they represent the future. This should be more of a motivator for instructors to care for their own personal health. A student that looks up to their instructor and thinks, "Wow! Mr. X is a great karate man and teacher and I want to be like him," is a problem when this greatness is associated with adult obesity. While obesity doesn't take away from someone as a person, it does pose a significant health risk. Instructing students to physically protect themselves against attackers, stress, self-doubt (among other things), they should also be taught to defend themselves against future health problems, such as coronary heart disease, Type-II Diabeties, etc. These are all associated with being overweight.

R. McLain


Sorry for the double post but R.McLain posted while I was doing so.

The shape of a person doesn't neccesarily mean they are unfit, it is actually a proven scientific fact that a fat person who does regular excercise is MUCH better off with less chance of having a heart attack than a thin person who does very little. I can't post links to fact checks as a) I read this in a mens fitness magazine and b) I checked this fact with my doctor.

Just the fact that the overweight person is doing something active gives a positive impression, it shows that anyone can do an MA regardless of bodyshape, some people are just built like that! I know a few people who couldn't loose weight for the life of them even through starving themselves nearly!!! Know how I know? It's my mum and her family, it's genetic! Yet my mum was one of the healthiest people around through constant physical excercise, she only stopped because she got a tumor and was bedridden.

Like I said in my last post, children are open minded, they will see what the instructor is doing and what they are learning. I think it would actually encourage obese and otherwise unfit children and teens to have a go. When I was unfit I was scared of starting an MA because I didn't think I would keep up with the class, I'm glad I did, my portly Aikido instructor put me at ease.

[kidswarrior]

The shape of a person doesn't neccesarily mean they are unfit, it is actually a proven scientific fact that a fat person who does regular excercise is MUCH better off with less chance of having a heart attack than a thin person who does very little. I can't post links to fact checks as a) I read this in a mens fitness magazine and b) I checked this fact with my doctor.

Yeah, read this one this week: 'He was built like a bowling ball, only not as soft.' My wife's grandmother was a little overweight her whole life--all 101 years of it.


Just the fact that the overweight person is doing something active gives a positive impression, it shows that anyone can do an MA regardless of bodyshape, some people are just built like that!

Yes, I've seen this, too. A similar example is I see kids all the time who need to wear glasses, but won't because it's uncool. Though my wife and I have discussed it, I have deliberately opted not to have laser eye surgery, wear contacts, or whatever to avoid wearing my glasses. I wear them deliberately to show kids they can have four eyes and still be martial artists (and when the attack comes, we won't have time to take them off, so better learn to defend ourselves while wearing them).


Like I said in my last post, children are open minded, they will see what the instructor is doing and what they are learning. I think it would actually encourage obese and otherwise unfit children and teens to have a go. When I was unfit I was scared of starting an MA because I didn't think I would keep up with the class, I'm glad I did, my portly Aikido instructor put me at ease.

I emphasized your quote, because it's a great point.

Do I want to encourage kids to be overweight? Obviously not. Do I hope all kids need corrective lenses? Of course not. But as Shaderon said, Kids are open minded. I think I would add, kids see through the external to the center of a person. They recognize and genuinely accept people who are doing their best for them.

[Blindside]

Just the fact that the overweight person is doing something active gives a positive impression, it shows that anyone can do an MA regardless of bodyshape, some people are just built like that! I know a few people who couldn't loose weight for the life of them even through starving themselves nearly!!! Know how I know? It's my mum and her family, it's genetic! Yet my mum was one of the healthiest people around through constant physical excercise, she only stopped because she got a tumor and was bedridden.

Like I said in my last post, children are open minded, they will see what the instructor is doing and what they are learning. I think it would actually encourage obese and otherwise unfit children and teens to have a go. When I was unfit I was scared of starting an MA because I didn't think I would keep up with the class, I'm glad I did, my portly Aikido instructor put me at ease.

Aikido may be the exception, but with most martial arts you will do better if you are fitter. Period. Mostly this shows up in competitive martial arts, where I challenge you to find a champion who is overweight, much less obese; capoeira, wushu, wrestling, kickboxing, muay thai, judo, boxing (old George Foreman was fat, young Foreman was NOT), fencing, kendo, jui-jitsu, olympic tae-kwondo, MMA, tournament point-fighting, whatever. SOME sumo players can be considered overweight, but only the heavyweights where there is no upper limit, take a look at any of the lighter weight classes.

I do have a negative impression of many martial artists if they are fat, alot of times they were great when they were younger, but have since lost the battle against the bulge. I have a much lower impression of younger martial artists that are fat. Heck, I do kenpo, all you have to do is look at about 3/4 of our "seniors" to see piss-poor examples of fitness. Alot of martial artists like to market their classes because it teaches "discipline." OK, good, please use that discipline and put the fork down and work out more. If you market yourself for "self-defense," well, guess what, fitness is a huge factor in self-defense. How many people tell you to "run away" or "nike-fu" is the first option? Cool, what is your one mile run speed there lard butt? How about your 40 yard dash? So now being overweight limits your self-defense options. "But a street fight only lasts 30 seconds," uh huh, except when they don't.

You don't need to be fit to be a good coach, but generally you will be a better martial artist if you are fit, and you are setting a poor example for your students, because they too will be better if they are fit. Yes, some people have a genetic predisposition or medical condition, but the fact is the biggest problem is forkinmouth disease.

Lamont

[kidswarrior]

Aikido may be the exception, but with most martial arts you will do better if you are fitter. Period.

Fitter than what? You use a relative term to make an absolute statement: 'period'. Doesn't work.


Mostly this shows up in competitive martial arts

Exactly. So what about the student who doesn't care about competition?


I do have a negative impression of many martial artists if they are fat, alot of times they were great when they were younger, but have since lost the battle against the bulge. I have a much lower impression of younger martial artists that are fat. Heck, I do kenpo, all you have to do is look at about 3/4 of our "seniors" to see piss-poor examples of fitness.

Have you shared that with them?


You don't need to be fit to be a good coach, but generally you will be a better martial artist if you are fit

I agree with this, but again, what is fit for one person may be out of shape for another. It's relative, not absolute. People may need time to grow, develop, become better--or get back to the shape they were in previously. None of us is perfect, not even instructors, and not even senior instructors. If someone is doing the best they can, I for one will not judge them.

[Blindside]

Fitter than what? You use a relative term to make an absolute statement: 'period'. Doesn't work.
Strength, cardio, anaerobic fitness, are attributes. Technique is a portion of martial arts, but what you are capable of pulling off is often dependent upon those attributes. If you have equal technique, the guy with the better attributes wins. In many cases the guy with the better attributes can make up for alot of bad technique. So "fitter" is entirely appropriate, and you are correct, it isn't an absolute statement, it is about whoever the heck you wind up against.



Exactly. So what about the student who doesn't care about competition?
Competition or not, being in better shape will give you the attributes to be a better martial artist, and that is the goal right?


Have you shared that with them?
They have a mirror, black isn't THAT slimming.


I agree with this, but again, what is fit for one person may be out of shape for another. It's relative, not absolute. People may need time to grow, develop, become better--or get back to the shape they were in previously. None of us is perfect, not even instructors, and not even senior instructors. If someone is doing the best they can, I for one will not judge them.

I don't claim to be perfect, I'm trying to get back to what I consider fighting shape myself. But a beer gut isn't an accident, you have to work at that, so that instructor can't complain when someone doesn't sign up with their class because they are overweight. It generally points to a certain lack of discipline in the instructor.

Lamont

[kidswarrior]

Strength, cardio, anaerobic fitness, are attributes. Technique is a portion of martial arts, but what you are capable of pulling off is often dependent upon those attributes. If you have equal technique, the guy with the better attributes wins. In many cases the guy with the better attributes can make up for alot of bad technique. So "fitter" is entirely appropriate, and you are correct, it isn't an absolute statement, it is about whoever the heck you wind up against.

Yeah, that I can agree with. I'd like to bring it back to the topic, though, which is studios/instruction. Couldn't we also say, the guy with the better technique can make up for a lot of bad 'attributes' (like being out of shape)?




Competition or not, being in better shape will give you the attributes to be a better martial artist, and that is the goal right? Yeah, I can agree with that, too. I like thinking in terms of progression/process ('better' shape) more than finality/summary assessment (as in absolutes: 'he's fat' or some such :)).



They have a mirror, black isn't THAT slimming. :lol:




I don't claim to be perfect, I'm trying to get back to what I consider fighting shape myself. But a beer gut isn't an accident, you have to work at that, so that instructor can't complain when someone doesn't sign up with their class because they are overweight. It generally points to a certain lack of discipline in the instructor.

Lamont

I know. But again, as I've gotten older, have tried to apply the one finger pointed at him, three pointed back at me, principle. We want to be the best Kenpoist examples possible, right? (and not just in body shape). :)

[Tez3]

Or how about this case: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6404229.stm
4-year old pictures, that where done in her spare time, and people are making a big stink about it. Does it in any way effect her skills as a teacher? No, but apparently it is a big issue for some.

This is blatently hypocritical, decent people don't read the News of the World so what were these 'upstanding' parents doing reading it in the first place?

All instructors are younger than me.

[Carol]

Doesn't this also emphasise the fact that children and teens are more open minded? Maybe this is why they learn better then us adults. Kids learn off whoever has the ability to teach them something, they learn off each other as well as adults, they don't measure a person's ability to teach by what they look like, well not usually, they measure it by what they learn and the rank of the teacher. To a child a black belt is the same as being a qualified teacher in a school, and a grandmaster is a headmaster I guess. Some adults could do with taking a page out of that book and remember once more to be open minded about learning.

Either that or it just means that to young folks we are all the same. We're just "old"! :D

[lostinseattle]

Either that or it just means that to young folks we are all the same. We're just "old"! :D

Young people don't seem to tend to think that much about stuff. There's this movie called 'Jesus Camp' where the pastor was saying that a lot of people are so fat and that it's lazy, and un-Christian, etc.

This was hugely hipocritical because she is obese herself. The kids are listening to her, and the hipocrisy didn't really seem to register. They kindof blinked and that was about it.

[kidswarrior]

All instructors are younger than me.

Tez, I've never contradicted you but you may have pushed me too far. I may decide to get my ID out to prove you wrong. :ultracool And if that somehow doesn't work, there's the matter of my Grand Master, who is 14 years older than I. He'll be 70 this year, and my goal is to get a little younger every year as he must have done, so by the time I'm his age I'll finally be able to move and fight like he does! :tantrum:

[kidswarrior]

Either that or it just means that to young folks we are all the same. We're just "old"! :D

Carol, to the teens I teach you're undoubtedly ancient, but for myself, I'd just like to be able to remember being your age. :lol2: Just kidding. Gimme a high-five :high5:

Seriously here's a funny story ( :confused: ). Today after my teen MA class, one of the senior students was telling me some of the younger guys were claiming that our art wouldn't really work on the street. The storyteller asked them, But haven't you seen (referring to me) move? Their reply: Yeah, but he's like Jackie Chan! :lfao: When I came home and told my wife, I think she injured herself falling hysterically to the floor. Had she been able to talk, I believe she would have said: Sure, if you mean a fat, worn out 56 year old version! :ubercool: Seriously, it's funny...isn't it?

[lostinseattle]

Sure, if you mean a fat, worn out 56 year version! :ubercool: Seriously, it's funny...isn't it?

Actually, Jackie's like 53, so it's not really funny.

[matt.m]

Here is the scenerio,

You are looking for a school for you and the family, you walk in and see this overwieght instructor not out of shape but overwieght, you talk to him and get all the info. and stay and watch a class and you are absolutely amazed about the way the class is ran, all the kids are doing what is ask of them and are being polite. Then you stay to see the advance belts and are even more amazed at the quality of there workout, so you stay another hour to watch the adult class it is a bit slower but still the workout is great.

You also find out that all but two instructor are in the mid to late 40 or older and this is a major concern for you.

You go back and talk again with the head instructor and enjoy the converstation and he gives you pricing like this, 6 days a week $75.00 a month, 3 days only $50.00 a month you reply well that is cheaper than everybody how come and you are given that you try and keep your pricing down so everyone will be able to offord classes.


Then out of the blue you say to the instructor one of these phases.

A) I would train with you but I just can't get by that you are overwieght, therefor I will be training at studio B even though they are a lesser school

B) I like what you have to offer but since you are less expenses I would probaly get better instruction from the higher price school

C) All of your instructor are kinda old so I would be better off with the younger instructor.


Please explain which one would be your answer and if not any of them what other choices do you have

Terry, I would speculate that these objections come from "Non serious" students. Geez, I couldn't find and instructor in MSK under 40.

People are taught to believe that "You get what you pay for." I have friends that go to different TKD schools. They come to my house for help, yet there belt is higher in grade than I. They pay 120 a month for their school and get essientially 35/50 minutes of training 2x a week.

People as a whole will believe younger = more athletic = better instruction. I am here to tell you, even if I wasn't crippled up now....that there is no way I could have taught judo better than I can now.

Age=experience
Weight=just a fact of life
Price increase=yes you may chase a few away, but what would that do to your current student base?

Just my thought.

[kidswarrior]

Terry, I would speculate that these objections come from "Non serious" students. Geez, I couldn't find and instructor in MSK under 40.

People are taught to believe that "You get what you pay for." I have friends that go to different TKD schools. They come to my house for help, yet there belt is higher in grade than I. They pay 120 a month for their school and get essientially 35/50 minutes of training 2x a week.

People as a whole will believe younger = more athletic = better instruction. I am here to tell you, even if I wasn't crippled up now....that there is no way I could have taught judo better than I can now.

Age=experience
Weight=just a fact of life
Price increase=yes you may chase a few away, but what would that do to your current student base?

Just my thought.

Excellent post, Matt. Hapkido done right is like that, in my experience--great art that's uncompromising. Unfortunately, 'tho it was my first love, my joints just couldn't do it at the age I began.

Keep up the good work--and mentoring.

[exile]

Tez, I've never contradicted you but you may have pushed me too far. I may decide to get my ID out to prove you wrong. :ultracool And if that somehow doesn't work, there's the matter of my Grand Master, who is 14 years older than I. He'll be 70 this year, and my goal is to get a little younger every year as he must have done, so by the time I'm his age I'll finally be able to move and fight like he does! :tantrum:

Tez, sorry, but I gotta go w/Kidswarrior on this. I instruct TKD and I'm going to be 60 in exactly two weeks, and I know from other posts of yours that I'm much the better part of a decade older than you. So this is one you don't get to win, LOL!

[Carol]

Carol, to the teens I teach you're undoubtedly ancient, but for myself, I'd just like to be able to remember being your age. :lol2: Just kidding. Gimme a high-five :high5:



:highfive: w00t!!!

Hey man, if you remembered your 30s you weren't really there, right? Sounds like ya done good. :D :D



Seriously here's a funny story ( :confused: ). Today after my teen MA class, one of the senior students was telling me some of the younger guys were claiming that our art wouldn't really work on the street. The storyteller asked them, But haven't you seen (referring to me) move? Their reply: Yeah, but he's like Jackie Chan! :lfao: When I came home and told my wife, I think she injured herself falling hysterically to the floor. Had she been able to talk, I believe she would have said: Sure, if you mean a fat, worn out 56 year old version! :ubercool: Seriously, it's funny...isn't it?

ROFLMAO! That's classic!

[terryl965]

Tez, sorry, but I gotta go w/Kidswarrior on this. I instruct TKD and I'm going to be 60 in exactly two weeks, and I know from other posts of yours that I'm much the better part of a decade older than you. So this is one you don't get to win, LOL!


I too must agree with these two sorry Tez

[Jonathan Randall]

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[Tez3]

I too must agree with these two sorry Tez

Will gladly accept defeat on this one! Am feeling a bit disillusioned at the moment lol! Actually I'm wavering on giving up martial arts but no doubt a few more days back on MT will talk me out of it! The reasons are pretty much as the original poster was saying about the club and instructor he was looking at. So many people go on appearances, oh they're old, over weight, they're female etc that it does get to you in the end!
I do know an instructor who states that a 'pot belly' isn't what it seems, it's where the 'chi' resides. That's why Buddha is always shown as being round bellied!

[Cirdan]

I do know an instructor who states that a 'pot belly' isn't what it seems, it's where the 'chi' resides. That's why Buddha is always shown as being round bellied!

Yep. A Samurai would take pride in having a big strong Ki belly too http://mmf.jeeran.com/smiley/samurai1.gif

[Brian R. VanCise]

I will tell you all pretty simply that one of the greatest martial artists I have ever met had a belly for most of his adult life. Yet he had people traveling all over the place to get a chance to train with him. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif There have been more than one individual like this. Truthfully it does not matter one iota what is really important is that people should be looking to see if you can teach and if those that you are teaching are benefiting from it. The eye after all is not how well you can perform but how well you can teach. That is after all what qualifies a great teacher! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[exile]

Will gladly accept defeat on this one! Am feeling a bit disillusioned at the moment lol! Actually I'm wavering on giving up martial arts but no doubt a few more days back on MT will talk me out of it!

Tez, what are you saying??? Why would you give up MAs just because....



The reasons are pretty much as the original poster was saying about the club and instructor he was looking at. So many people go on appearances, oh they're old, over weight, they're female etc that it does get to you in the end!

... so many people have dumb ideas?? I mean, look, you know that most people have no clue about many things beyond the most shallow level, the one corresponding to the `obviousness' of the earth being flat and the sun going around it. Things almost never really work that way, but for much of the world, maybe most, that level of thinking is all you need to get by, so... but you're not going allow the ignorance of the yobs in the MA world to defeat you, are you??? Of course not!!!

[kidswarrior]

Tez, sorry, but I gotta go w/Kidswarrior on this. I instruct TKD and I'm going to be 60 in exactly two weeks, and I know from other posts of yours that I'm much the better part of a decade older than you. So this is one you don't get to win, LOL!

Thanks for the supprt, Brother Exile. We gotta stay on top of this stuff. :ultracool

[exile]

Thanks for the supprt, Brother Exile. We gotta stay on top of this stuff. :ultracool

We do! All these brash kids trying to hustle us into rocking chairs on porches... have to keep reminding them that—how does it go?—age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill... so then, consider what age and treachery and also skill will do!! :EG:

[kidswarrior]

We do! All these brash kids trying to hustle us into rocking chairs on porches... have to keep reminding them that—how does it go?—age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill... so then, consider what age and treachery and also skill will do!! :EG:

LOLOLOL!

[kidswarrior]

Will gladly accept defeat on this one! Am feeling a bit disillusioned at the moment lol! Actually I'm wavering on giving up martial arts but no doubt a few more days back on MT will talk me out of it! The reasons are pretty much as the original poster was saying about the club and instructor he was looking at. So many people go on appearances, oh they're old, over weight, they're female etc that it does get to you in the end!
I do know an instructor who states that a 'pot belly' isn't what it seems, it's where the 'chi' resides. That's why Buddha is always shown as being round bellied!

Hey Tez,
Life happens, we change and grow--and watch others who just don't get it. But like the old saying goes, What other people think of me is none of my concern. Do MA for you; five years from now, think how much progress you'll have made--and where will those naysayers be? Long gone.

And by the way, five years from now we'll be five years older, whether we do MA or not. So may as well continue MA! It'll be a lot better five years. :boing2:

Best, ~kidswarrior