I notice that both http://www.ninjutsu.com and http://www.ninjitsu.com offer home study courses in ninjitsu. The latter seems to be a newly created art but the former, offered by Richard J. Van Donk (10th degree in something and 12th degree equivalent in Bujinkan, apparently), appears to be a course leading to up to 4th degree black belt that the web site gives every appearance of being authorized by Grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi.

Is it the case that Mr. Hatsumi (I seem to recall that perhaps it's Dr. Hatsumi?) has authorized a home study course in ninjutsu, or is Mr. Van Donk acting on his own? I'm also a bit confused by his ranking--I gather he interprets his menkyo license as being the equivalent of a 12th degree, but then I am unsure what he is 10th degree in and am a bit surprised that such a high-ranking individual isn't e.g. a Hanshi (above the Shihan he claims).

Howdy arnisador,


Ninjitsu.com is run by Rick Tew, a former student of Frank Dux (of the Bloodsport fairytale).

Ninjutsu.com is run by Richard Van Donk, who I believe is a 12th Dan now in the Bujinkan. He is definately doing his own thing with the 'grade-by-video' bit. And as far as I'm aware, it is NOT supported by Hatsumi sensei, yet the personal discussions that they have had between them I couldn't really comment about.

Mr. Van Donk seems to love titles. Many of which I have strong disagreements as to the way he uses them (or having the right to do so).

He is not above "Shihan".

*ahem* (From the Rules of the Bujinkan)

Ranks from 11th dan through 15th dan of the "Man" level will be divided into 5 levels: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Void, and will be the highest ranks in Bujinkan Dojo Happo Biken. The 5th dan examination is of a spiritual nature and is something which is done by Soke. A 15th dan will be considered to be a true shihan.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Ninjitsu.com is run by Rick Tew, a former student of Frank Dux (of the Bloodsport fairytale).


Ah. I was not aware of this but I was certainly suspicious.


Ninjutsu.com is run by Richard Van Donk, who I believe is a 12th Dan now in the Bujinkan. He is definately doing his own thing with the 'grade-by-video' bit. And as far as I'm aware, it is NOT supported by Hatsumi sensei, yet the personal discussions that they have had between them I couldn't really comment about.


I understand. It surprised me because I understood that Mr. Hatsumi was as conservative as those associated with most koryu arts in this regard.


Ranks from 11th dan through 15th dan of the "Man" level will be divided into 5 levels: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Void, and will be the highest ranks in Bujinkan Dojo Happo Biken. The 5th dan examination is of a spiritual nature and is something which is done by Soke. A 15th dan will be considered to be a true shihan. [/B]

Interesting. I had not realized the ranking system went so high. Since you've once again piqued my curiosity: Is 15th dan the highest then and is Mr. Hatsumi the sole 15th dan? Did Mr. Hatsumi initiate the dan/kyu system for this art or did his predecessor (since it must be a post-Kano addition)?

Heya arnisador,


I understand. It surprised me because I understood that Mr. Hatsumi was as conservative as those associated with most koryu arts in this regard.

OOOOH boy...Hatsumi sensei is FAR from conservative. :D He is definately one of the most eccentric people I've ever experianced.

Interesting. I had not realized the ranking system went so high. Since you've once again piqued my curiosity: Is 15th dan the highest then and is Mr. Hatsumi the sole 15th dan? Did Mr. Hatsumi initiate the dan/kyu system for this art or did his predecessor (since it must be a post-Kano addition)?

Sensei is Soke. There are currently no 15th Dan in the Bujinkan (unless Hatsumi sensei is sneaking one around :D) As far as I understand, Hatsumi sensei created the kyu/dan setup for Budo Taijutsu.

Sorry I can't be more clear...I just honestly am un-sure

Have a good one,

Jay

http://www.tenchiryuninjutsu.com/

:mp5:

shoot me.

Originally posted by Jay Bell

shoot me.

I think if you take the course you'll learn how to be impervious to bullets.

Home study martial arts courses are popping up everywhere. The reasoning seems to be "If colleges can do it why not martial arts?" Of course colleges are built around an ancient form of distance education--READING BOOKS--whereas martial arts are not. I think it's a crock, but it sure seems to be here to stay. Wait until we have lots of schools opened up by the products of these nouveau black belts.

i have seen this home study course in many magazines. i personally would not buy into it. unless you have a qualified teacher there with you how can you be sure you are doing it correctly.

the whole video grading thing sounds a bit shady also. i have always wanted to learn this art, but i would not buy the videos to do so.

Check out Rick Tews Total Warrior.com and you be the judge! Be sure to click on the RTMS Videos and the Home Study Program Videos. http://totalwarrior.com Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Van Donk is an impressive practitioner in person, nice guy too. The tape thing I think is fine as a reference or brush up work but not primary learning.
I have heard some talk of how dramatic VD is, not to forget Hatsumi Sensei is an actor himself.
Now I happen to think Tew Ryu is pretty cool, I would love to do what they do. maybe loosley based on Ninpo. I don't see too much of it there. But if they are having fun the who cares. I'm impressed. Mind you I think the same can be said for Bussey. Hard core's will tell you he is BS, I am very intrigued by what I saw. I imagine the training he received was decent enough, considering to Yondan it was Hatsumi, unless I am wrong.
I don't tend to run down the indepedents, I train with anyone I can. I 'll learn something from everyone.
Just my opinion.

Hatsumi does have Some 15th dans in the bujinkan.one of them has been with them hatsumi since his early days when he was with takamatsu.

Originally posted by Blacktiger2186

Hatsumi does have Some 15th dans in the bujinkan.one of them has been with them hatsumi since his early days when he was with takamatsu.

What is your source for this information? As much as is public, 14th dan is the highest grade achieved so far.

My source is a very close friend of mine who was an old instuctor of mine also. he is a 6th dan in bujinkan. i have other resourses to find out infomation.
Paul

:rolleyes:

Mod Note:
Please confine all "for sale" postings to the advertizing forums.

Ad post that was here has been spun off to its own thread in the "Pro Shop" forum.

Thank you.
:asian:

There are no 15th Dans in the Bujinkan, your info is just plain false. For one point the Bujinkan did not exist when Hatsumi was training with Takamatsu secondly who in the Kan was training with Takamatsu with Hatsumi? Some would say Tanemuera (sp) However he is Genbukan other than that your information is incorrect, who is the 6th Dan? I know there may be some 14th Dans. Jack Hoban being one of them unless he is 13th I could be mistaken. Jay what is he?

Jack Hoban is a 14th dan from what I understand now

Yes, Jack Hoban is ranked at 14th Dan currently.

I am not sure however how many 14th dans exist. I had read another post somewhere else, it seemed there were many Europeans with the rank. How many are there worldwide?

I honestly have no idea. There's a thread on Kutaki about how many 14th Dans made it to the Tai Kai over there this year. Some people that acheive high rank view it as a very personal thing, so there's honestly no real way of knowing.

Is it expected that everyone would reach such a high rank given sufficient time and seriousness?

I checked out that Tew Ryu stuff. I am very weary of anything related to Frank Dux but he looks quite good. Maybe it isn't Ninjutsu but man he is athletic and most of his students on the videos looked quite good too. I really like the outdoor training. This might be a case where a non traditonal version is still fairly viable.

Tony

There is a school near you Tmanifold. go to http://pub56.ezboard.com/bunitedninjutsuvoice
and ask for Jackson Wagner.
Tew Ryu is very athletic and very expensive. I guess I'd call it executive martial arts. I know very little about Dux, his history is clouded with BS, not always his.

As for the 14th Dan, no I wouldn't say that many would be expected to reach that level. Hoban is a very active member and a pioneer in the Booj. Legacies must be left around the world. I would imagine there would be a few 14th dans on each continent after some time.
Having met Jack and seeing how he moves, I think his grade is well deserved. But you must remember what Hatsumi believes of grade. That is, I don't know. He is so abstract that everyone is graded on a different principle. Law of Chaos I guess LOL.

I believe I have read and seen the story of a man who trained, he parachuted in the army, broke his back and yet continued to train. Hatsumi S gave the man a Judan I believe, but based on the fact that that is the true spirit of a warrior. I for one could not agree more.
I may be off on the story and grade, but the gist was right LOL
Jay, can you make it more accurate than that?

Nonetheless Hatsumi is the real budoka, his methods should be watched and revered.:asian:

Hi Dave,

The only thing I've ever seen of the man is on the Kobudo no Kihon video. Hatsumi sensei asked him to perform Hicho no Kata. Hatsumi sensei explained that he was injured during skydiving and wanted him to demonstrate because he was sure that he would come up with some interesting movements. I'm not sure of the gentleman's name though.

Right, yes I have that set. I had to get it after the Atlanta Tai Kai. Excellent aren't they. I assume that he is the very same guy. And a very true account of what makes up a warrior.

Hi to all of you!!!

If i´m not wrong (and may be i am), Daniel Hernandez is a 13th dan and is the head of the bujinkan here in latin america

best regards,
Gabriel

Dont part with your money!

Look out for an instructor nearby (Soke Hatsumi travelled over 200 miles every weekend for almost 15 years for training). If you do not have someone nearby - then save your money for seminars.

There are NO 15th Dans within Bujinkan. There are approx 15 (my estimate) 14th Dans including Japanese.

In regards to Mr Van Donk, weather he is a 12th Dan or 10th Dan - the issue is does he act or move like a 10th or 12th Dan and my answer has to be NO. Soke awards grades for many different reasons - sometimes for the persons ego and sometimes that they deserve the grade and need to be challenged.

Pervaz

The opinions on RVD are varied. I think he charges too much for what you get. If anyone has seen the quality of the training in Japan tapes you'll agree. He is very egomanical and enigmatic. Definatly knows how to stand for a photo.
Now its hard to say how should a dan of that level move. Everyone moves differently. I don't think Papasan moves like Pedro and RVD doesn't move like Severance.
In my experience after meeting RVD at the Atlanta Tai Kai, he is very fluent and fast. IMO he is very demonstrative, he has gotten used to being in front of camera. As for his command of henke and subleties I don't know. His taijutsu seems very good though. Then again I am comparing to myself there :rofl:
He is a businessman, that is what he is good at. But in IMO again I find his ads a little embarrassing.

Originally posted by Bujingodai

As for his command of henke

What's that?

'henka' is like saying variations. It's when things are changed within a technique to broaden and explore the core understanding.

Ah yes, we call them "innovations" in Modern Arnis.

How can anyone talk trash about video black belt courses when the most training most Bujinkan members get with Hatsumi is watching him on a stage with 800 people? Does Hatsumi come around and tell you personally what you are doing wrong? At least with a video course you can hit the rewind button.

But almost all the people who claim to be "personal students of Masaaki Hatsumi" see him once a year at a seminar from a distance of about 20 meters.

Give me a break.:rolleyes: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The guys trying to learn from video courses won't learn much, if anything, usefull. But the typical Bujinkan member won't get much more.

How can anyone talk trash about video black belt courses when the most training most Bujinkan members get with Hatsumi is watching him on a stage with 800 people? Does Hatsumi come around and tell you personally what you are doing wrong? At least with a video course you can hit the rewind button.

But almost all the people who claim to be "personal students of Masaaki Hatsumi" see him once a year at a seminar from a distance of about 20 meters.

Give me a break. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The guys trying to learn from video courses won't learn much, if anything, usefull. But the typical Bujinkan member won't get much more.

So, the Hombu dojo is filled with...what, ghosts?

Note the use of the word "most" before the words "Bujinkan members."

And two weeks in a class where you can barely move because there are so many people does not really classify as a personal student/teacher relationship.

Again, my main point, how many people claiming to be Hatsumi students can get all of their mistakes pointed out by Hatsumi?

Don't hate me because I point out that the emporer has no clothes.

As far as I know Jack Hoban is 14th Dan - as is Steffen Frolich of germany.

Steffen is *incredible*. Jack is wonderful as well - but my personal preference is toward the style of Steffen.... only because he moves in a way that is comfortable to me.

I went to the Buyu camp this year, and took classes with Hoban, RVD, Steffen and Bill Atkins.

All were wonderful - but Steffen's classes were perfect - even though he spoke no english. His body language was fantastic.

Jack was very dynamic in the Juppo Sessho that he was showing this year, Steffen was very subtle. RVD was good. Bill Atkins was very technical and smooth.

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
But the typical Bujinkan member won't get much more.

Damn. As a typical Bujinkan member I am not going to get anything from my training with my Instructor. I should just buy a video or switch to some sport martial art where I will get more. Joe McDojo will give me a more complete training.

Originally posted by Technopunk
Damn. As a typical Bujinkan member I am not going to get anything from my training with my Instructor. I should just buy a video or switch to some sport martial art where I will get more. Joe McDojo will give me a more complete training.

It depends, doesn't it? Just how qualified is your instructor. The big problem with the Bujinkan is that there is so many poor instructors and for students it is hard to tell if they have a good one or a poor one.

You may be showing up for personalized instruction, but did your instructor learn in such a manner? How many holes does he have in his technique? How are you to judge good ninjutsu from bad? Are you going to judge him by his rank? Well, in the Bujinkan that means nothing. Are you going to judge him by how he is talked about? Well, the back stabbing and bad mouthing of people in the Bujinkan is well known. You got good instructors being bashed by the schmucks and the schmucks explaining away the things said about them as being part of politics. Which is your instructor? And remember that if he falls into the schmuck catagory, he will not be telling stories that make him sound like one. He will show pictures of him with Hatsumi, talk about how he drank over at his house, etc.

So, you may be training under a person and get individual attention, but if the guy who is teaching you doesn't get that from higher ups in the Bujinkan, how is that supposed to help you? It is a case of the blind leading the blind!!!!

True, but Just like anything else, you can observe things, attend class, see hwo things are done, and make judgements.

The same thing can be said about any school for any art, or really for training anything in life... there are good schools and bad schools... You have to observe and decide. My original Bujinkan instructor moved away four years ago, and I just started training again 5 months ago, because I finally found an instructor that "worked" for me...

Did I make a wrong choice? I don't believe so, but Perhaps its true... if so, time will reveal that...

Originally posted by Technopunk
True, but Just like anything else, you can observe things, attend class, see hwo things are done, and make judgements.

True, but what is the typical student supposed to base his judgements on? I think anyone who is a student is by definition not very experienced in the subject. Many people only really know one instructor and base their entire outlook on the art based on that one person. It is hard to judge based on just that.

If you go down to one of those studios that practice back flipping- spinning side kicks you will probably shake your head at how unrealistic that stuff is for combat. But the guys doing them have no experience in trying to use that kick in a real fight so as far as they know the stuff is combat effective.

By the same token, without a lot of experience, you are basically trusting your instructor to teach a strong form of Bujinkan without any holes or variations. If you study under a scmuck, your whole outlook will be shaped by him.

Scary, huh? :eek:

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
True, but what is the typical student supposed to base his judgements on? I think anyone who is a student is by definition not very experienced in the subject. Many people only really know one instructor and base their entire outlook on the art based on that one person. It is hard to judge based on just that.

True... although I feel that I have been lucky in that I have had the opportunity to visit several bujinkan schools, and see how different instructors teach and move... Am I in a position to say who is the best, most accurate? Nope. But at least having a basis of comparison helps, I think.

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter

By the same token, without a lot of experience, you are basically trusting your instructor to teach a strong form of Bujinkan without any holes or variations. If you study under a scmuck, your whole outlook will be shaped by him.

Scary, huh? :eek:

Yep. Totaly.

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter

By the same token, without a lot of experience, you are basically trusting your instructor to teach a strong form of Bujinkan without any holes or variations. If you study under a scmuck, your whole outlook will be shaped by him.

Scary, huh?

Ummm...what is soo scary about it? Getting a schmuck for an instructor? or just trusting your instructor to teach you correctly?

I tend to think that even to the inexperienced student, you have to give them credit that they are not going to be THAT STOOOPID! and not recognize a schmuck when they see one!

Student/Instructor relationship is extremely important if you ask me. It is a bond that is totally different than anything else and that is with all arts!

Originally posted by Technopunk
True... although I feel that I have been lucky in that I have had the opportunity to visit several bujinkan schools, and see how different instructors teach and move... Am I in a position to say who is the best, most accurate? Nope. But at least having a basis of comparison helps, I think.

I think that is great! Getting to see a variety of different instructors etc. Every instructor is different. Just look at Hatsumi Sensei, Nagato Sensei, Shirashi Sensei etc. Each one has their own unique "flavor" which I think makes things soo interesting! You just have to try the "flavors" out and pick the one you like the best and enjoy it! It doesn't matter who is best or most accurate. What matters is that YOU enjoy what you are doing!

Deaf

Originally posted by Deaf
I tend to think that even to the inexperienced student, you have to give them credit that they are not going to be THAT STOOOPID! and not recognize a schmuck when they see one!

If that is the case, then why do so many obvious frauds and morons have so many students?

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
If that is the case, then why do so many obvious frauds and morons have so many students?

My guess is becuase they "prey" on the lowest common denominator...

This is my first time on this site, and I am a rookie in Martial Arts, so bear with me. I have been studying RVD home black belt course, and so far it has definetly helped me alot to begin to learn this art. Now the only reason I even bought this series is because this is the art I really want to learn, and living in Dubuque, Iowa, there is nothing or no one near me that I can find that practices or teaches this. The closest place is at least 2 hours away, and I really cannot find the time right now to drive that far, although I would if I could. I am a police officer and this stuff is really practical for my job, and I really love all aspects of the art. If I could find someone near me that I can study under then I would definelty do that before resorting to video's, but right now I have to work with the best I have!

There is only one way to judge whether or not your current instructor is any good, which, incidentally, is my suggested solution to the problem of not having an instructor nearby.

Attend seminars and training camps and train with everyone you can. EVERYONE.

BTW, I've seen Steffen in action with my own eyes...:confused::tantrum:

It depends, doesn't it? Just how qualified is your instructor. The big problem with the Bujinkan is that there is so many poor instructors and for students it is hard to tell if they have a good one or a poor one.
It all comes down to common sense...

He will show pictures of him with Hatsumi, talk about how he drank over at his house, etc.
Well, I didn't drink at Sensei's house, but he did try to give me what I can only describe as squid candy (*shudder*). But that has no bearing on my skill level. I tell anyone I train with to train with as many people as possible, and if they find something that works better for them, then they should go there...

Jeff

It all comes down to common sense...
I honestly wish I could believe that...there is a dojo in my city whose students and instructors stopped going to Japan and training with other people as far back as perhaps 5-6 years ago.
I visited them once, and what we did for most of the time was plain old boxing training, complete with gloves and all...after a while it was time for, what they told me, some boxing sparring. I thought okay, that's done at my dojo from time to time as a warmup anyhow. And so the first thing that happened was that I received a kick to the head. Sparring with people you already know from before is one thing, but this time I had no idea about what was accepted and not. Without warning people threw elbows, knees, roundhouses, shoots, headbutts and shin kicks at one another at full speed. Afterwards they said something about "training against realistic street attacks". Right, everyone you meet on the str33t is a trained shootfighter.

A few weeks ago I had a conversation with one of their students at another online forum...he mentioned something about Ishizuka and Muramatsu being the best fighters the Bujinkan has to offer. When I told him "uncle H" doesn't want us to train with them anymore, his response was "all the more reason to do so".
Earlier we'd been discussing the attending of seminars, upon which he said that he wasn't going to be spending hundreds of dollars worth of money practicing techniques he only gets to see once or twice before the training starts, which also MIGHT work if your attacker is drunk and gives you his hand voluntarily.

Now this guy has, according to himself, trained only ONCE at a place other than his dojo, and apparently sees no need to venture out again. It's obvious that these people don't want to have anything to do with the rest of the Bujinkan, but I don't think you ever see their beginners ask questions about why they're not attending seminars or going to Japan and such... not after they're told the same things I was anyhow.

Sensei is Soke. There are currently no 15th Dan in the Bujinkan (unless Hatsumi sensei is sneaking one around :D) As far as I understand, Hatsumi sensei created the kyu/dan setup for Budo Taijutsu.

Sorry I can't be more clear...I just honestly am un-sure

Have a good one,

Jay
Actually there are several 15th dans around the world I know of several from the US. And for my source it is me. I live just down the road from the hombu and train with Sensei once a week, and have for the past 13 years.

Actually there are several 15th dans around the world I know of several from the US. . .

Quite correct, Michael -- but please note that Jay's post you're quoting was written a bit over three years ago.

Doh! I guess I should look at the dates sometime. Of course you also realize that Noda is about three years behind the rest of the world anyway. We live in this weird time bubble over here :idunno: