Mod. Note--"I quit!" thread.

[kenposcum]

Everyone-
So I started Kenpo at Downers Grove Karate when I was fifteen. What I was really interested in was something that would keep me safe when I finally got to prison. Don't all gasp at once, but I was hanging around some pretty shifty cats and I figured sooner or later, I'd get sent to the pokey. It was time to learn how to fight.
So I started. My first group class I was so out of shape I threw up during the first fifteen minutes. But I wouldn't stop...this stuff was so cool!
So by the time I graduated high school, I was a big bad purple belt. And all I wanted to do was study martial arts, commit crimes (notably theft and drug dealing), and "hang out" with a series of young ladies possessed of a loose moral character.
I kept training. I'd be at the dojo waiting for my instructor to get there, and I'd stay until he left. Unlike him, I never spent any time just sitting around...I was busy practicing. Learning.
I'd get jobs, and then they'd start to encroach on my training, and I'd quit. Ah, fraud was easier anyway, wasn't it? My instructor didn't pay any attention to me beyond bumming me the occaisional cigarette. No asking me what I was up to, no trying to encourage me to get into school, NOTHING. I'd relate tales of street violence, including how I brought the violence upon myself, and did he ever admonish me? Tell me I was going to end up dead? No; he'd gruffly laugh as I told him about how I sent some gangbanger to the hospital and mutter something about his school being able to kick the rice out of all the other schools.
I was getting pretty damn good. In a year or so I became a green belt and began teaching. What a gratifying feeling! I was also getting into a lot of trouble at this point. I got a DUI charge, and a couple months later I got a battery charge when I beat up my girlfriend's brother. My instructor didn't care. After a couple of months, he gave me a key to the school. I treated it like my child.
I kept passing people in rank, getting better and more knowledgeable (sp?) until the two highest ranking brown belts at the school were myself and a guy who got his brown belt the WEEK I STARTED! Between myself, this brown belt, and my instructor, we were teaching pretty much everyone in the school.
In terms of total hours, I was there the most though. And I grew as a person, too. A girlfriend of mine, along with my fellow brown belt, convinced me to get into school. And I did, and I did pretty well for someone who had no aspirations to higher learning. I took an anthropology class that taught me about the theory of violence: violence not as a physical act, but violence as a violation of another being. I came into a greater understanding of humankind.
And I gave up my criminal inclinations, and not a moment too soon. My old "road dog" is now serving six years for armed robbery and aggravated battery. We write sometimes and I try to help him.
So time went on. I kept working hard in the dojo, still spending five-six hours a night. Most days I'd get there before my instructor. The other brown belt and I kept working and working. It became clear to us that our instructor had no intention of promoting anyone to black belt. After he taught you Long 4, you got Long 5 to deal with. Then Long 6. Then Long 7. Finally I expressed that I didn't think a black belt was attainable at our school. This drove my instructor INSANE and he finally gave these requirements for black belt: all 124 techniques off both sides, Short 1, 2, 3, Long 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, Setting Sun, Mass Attack, Book-Set, Tiger, Crane, 2-Man Set, Finger Set, Moving Finger Set, Staff 1, 2, 3, 4. Since 1981, when our (well, the school, now) opened, over 10,000 people had joined. Three got their black belts. My fellow (ah, let's call him Jim) and I were rip-snortin' to be the next two. We set a date for October.
Jim had to leave for his federal cop training in Fletsie (sp?) Georgia. The test date got pushed back.
My instructor had hernia surgery. The test date got pushed back again.
Finally, my instructor was ready to push the test date back some more, and I pleaded with him to let us test Nov 3, because Jim's (the other brown belt's) wife was due to give birth to their first child in later.
I was told that this wouldn't be a black belt test, that we were testing for 1st degree brown.
The test was a joke. Jim was breathing like a steam engine after the the first or second kata we did, his form slipped mightily(he's a typical fat cop). Mine didn't; I'm in good shape and I was better able to regulate my breathing and "connect" my breath to my movements. Jim goofed on a technique he was faux-teaching as well. I didn't goof on mine.
After a couple hours, it was over. It was so anti-climatic I was certain there'd be no black belts coming out of that.
I was wrong. Jim, he of the fat ass and the flubbed techniques, recieved his black belt. I was promoted from 3rd degree to 1st degree brown.
Which is why I quit. I have a life to get started on. I have to do well in school so I can transfer into a good university, so I can have a shot at feeding myself. I could use those hours ordinarily spent at the dojo WORKING and maybe actually making some money.
I started because I didn't want to lose fights. Now I'm quitting because I am sick and tired of my instructor's ego and bulls**t, I could make decent money waiting tables, I'm perfectly secure in my ability to take people out, and well...I didn't think I'd cry, but I am. All I really needed was someone to show me how to be a good person, help me because my dad left and my mom was always too stoned to help me with anything, and I got NOTHING! No help...that's all I wanted, really. It's sad that I realize this now, I feel like I'm wasted so much of my life. Six more months of training the way I have, teaching as much as I have? No. I was being walked on and I didn't even realize. Oh, this hurts so bad.
Anybody who wants clarification can go ahead and ask. It's funny, but I don't think I'll actually stop training...I am addicted now. But I also don't think I'll ever go back to an Asian martial arts school...maybe I'll just box. But I'll keep on reading MartialTalk (sobbing and laughing)!

:asian:

[MartialArtist]

i'm sorry.

boxing and asian martial arts... Practically no difference if you claim you were working hard. There are always better teachers or individual groups where you can train. you get what you put in

[arnisador]

I wish I could say this is the first time I've heard a story of an instructor taking advantage of a student like this but I've heard the exact same story many times before. As to the role model issue, one always hopes that an instructor will provide this.

You may find that your training transfers to another martial arts school. Boxing is great but you might be able to pick up more-or-less where you left off at another Kenpo school.

I believe that focusing on your acadmeic studies is important--financial security is a way of protecting your health and safety (health insurance, safe neighborhood, etc.).

[GouRonin]

Once I wanted to quit boxing. I told my coach. He said, "So quit. But remember no one cares if you do. Only you are losing out. If you really want it, find a way."

Smooth Seas Never Made Skillful Sailors...

[MountainSage]

I sign my posts with a quote "It's not the destination, but the journey that builds character". You are an example of this quote. The journey has changed you from a person that would be called a loser to a winner. Your experiance with that particular instructor was unfortunate, but the character that was created can not be measured or taken from you. Continue moving forward and the future will be bright.

" It is better the aim for the stars and miss, then to aim for a cowpie and hit."

[chufeng]

So what?

You want sympathy???

Bite me...

You are copping out and blaming someone else...

In the end YOU know who's responsible...

Good luck in Prison...

:asian:
chufeng

REALITY BITES, DOESN'T IT?

[Matt Stone]

I started studying when I was 16 or 17 (back in 1986). I got my black belt in 1998, 12 years after I started.

Personally, I don't think I deserved it, but that's neither here nor there.

So how long have you been studying? No offense intended (mostly), but if you haven't taken at least a decade to get your black belt, I don't think you really earned it... Not just because it took me that long to get mine (though that does help ;) ), but because after taking that long I feel like I earned what little I do know. It is mine - I worked hard for the knowledge, and it can't be taken away.

Get over it. Find someplace else to train. Good luck with it.

Gambarimasu.

[Angus]

Chufeng, that isn't the most positive way to respond is it? I don't know that I would respond the same way, regardless of whether you felt that way or not, but come on..."bite me" is a little juvenile, isn't it?

Kenposcum, you learned some valuable life lessons that probably saved your future from that school. Take the knowledge and continue to progress through your life with it. Find a new kenpo school and keep working at it. So you don't like your instructor, that's fine. Find a new one, and keep training. You must enjoy the art, so why not further your understanding and learning by continuing to study it. One bad apple...;)

Seriously, good luck with whatever training you decide to continue with. Whatever you do, you know where your skills are and what you should be training, so follow your heart. Don't let one bad instructor or multiple years of LEARNING get in the way of that.

[kenposcum]

Ah, I was just whining.
Too bad but then again c'est la vie.
I'm thinking it will be kind of nice to work around and try to innovate things for myself a little bit.
And it will be nice to finally have some dough.
When one door closes, another opens, or something to that effect.
And up yours Chiduce, the whole point was that I learned and evolved. So I'm not even close to offended by you...
:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by kenposcum

And up yours Chiduce,

Might want to get your names right... Chufeng is who replied; Chiduce hasn't even posted on this topic yet...

Chufeng is my senior in Yiliquan, and I have known him for 14 years. While he doesn't need me to defend his actions, I think you take/took his comments in a way other than the way they were meant...

His harsh attitude is like a stick being applied to the back of a sleeping monk... It serves several purposes, and may wake him up in more than one way.

Again, good luck with whatever you do. Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience.

Gambarimasu.

[cdhall]

Originally posted by chufeng

...Bite me....

:asian:
chufeng

REALITY BITES, DOESN'T IT?

Hey Nurse Hachey, why don't you show a little respect for another human being or don't nurses in the Great Northwest USA practice compassion?

I don't know about anyone else but I am not a member of MartialTalk so I can read disrespectful posts from "keyboard warriors" who hurl barbs across space and time that they probably would not say to someone's face.

In my opinion being rude over the Internet marks you as a coward. Are you like this in person? I know you would not say this to someone in my school on my mat. Your are a rude SOB and I hope they suspend your account. I just chastised a student at my studio this week for being disrespectful but at least he had the opportunity to mouth off in person to someone's face and suffer the consequences.

I think kenposcum has related a valuable story. I think he is not alone. I doubt if there are not others on this website who have seen and heard the same thing. I think he needs to remember that he may well have some good skills and he can probably transport them to a good school, under a good teacher. If kenposcum has learned the material properly it sounds like he should have no trouble finding an instructor to take him on and train him through the Black Belt ranks.

He needs to remember that no one can take away his skill and this is why he was there to begin with. If your instructor employs a belt ranking system in a commercial school then he has a responsibility to train you through the ranks "as advertised" in my opinion. If he does not, then why does he use a graduated system? If he is taking your money and not promoting you then he may well be misrepresenting what he is selling.

I wish kenposcum well. I appreciated his post and his positive attitude toward his future and his current situation in life.

I wish you would apologize and act like an educator and a health professional and be more constructive. He is not asking for your sympathy, he is not coping out (he can't promote himself), he is not responsible for his teacher training 3 in 10,000 people to Black Belt. If this guy ran a public school there is no way he would not be penalized for only "graduating" 3 people in 10 years.

You also don't seem to realize that he is no longer likely to go to prison. You are on the other hand are likely to get your butt kicked if you mouth off like that to someone in person.

You are a disgrace to common courtesy, civility, the martial arts and the health profession. Reality bites doesn't it? Go away. Get out. Leave. Don't come back. Apologize. You are an irritating distraction to anyone trying to use this website for a constructive purpose. I hope I have made myself clear.

[Matt Stone]

Hey there, Dougie, why the wild hair up your backside? :angry:

How do you know Chufeng, and how do you presume to know him well enough to bark out such libelous comments?

If anyone here has been insulting it is you...

Kenposcum has admitted in a public forum that he has committed crimes - theft, drug possession with the intent to distribute, introducing controlled substances, and who knows how many more. Somehow I see the "Good luck in prison" comment as not too far off the mark...

Sure, Kenposcum is relating a common story. But his remaining a student with his former teacher is nobody's fault but his own.


If he is taking your money and not promoting you then he may well be misrepresenting what he is selling.

You bet. And Caveat Emptor to anyone, anywhere. If he didn't feel he was getting what he was paying for, Kenposcum should have hit the road instead of trying to tough it out in order to get a black belt from someone who apparently didn't approve of the illegal activities Kenposcum was indulging in... Funny how the overweight cop got promoted while the in shape miscreant didn't...

I would love for the self same hater of insulting keyboard warriors to practice what he preaches... You flatly called Chufeng a discompassionate coward. Chufeng simply denied Kenposcum's request for sympathy. You made insulting comments, called insulting names (unless you appreciate being called an SOB; do you?) and then acted like you were someone who mattered when you uttered "I hope I have made myself clear."

Whatever. While Chufeng's comments were abrasive, yours were abusive. If anyone should be making apologies, it should be you Mr. Hall... As for accounts being suspended... I thought that only people who were openly insulting, derogatory, and called names got that treatment... Mods? Care to comment on this?

And by the way Dougie, nice use of Chufeng's profile information in launching your personal attack on him... Pulling his info for just such a purpose seems to really mark you as one of those you detest so much... Are you this insulting in person? Perhaps we will never know...

:angry:

[RyuShiKan]

Yiliquan1,

Who the "f" is he?

Well let's see who Mr. Hall REALLY is:

Seems to be a Boy Scouts of America, Capitol Area Council, Cub Scout Pack 140, Trained and Registered Adult Leader Oct 1999-Present.
He also claims to be a devote Christian, although from his post it's difficult to realize it.

http://www.cdouglashall.com/christ.html



Kemposcum,

I would like to give you some words of advice.
If what you are saying is true about you criminal activities...............make no mistake you will get caught. Maybe not today or tomorrow but you will get caught and if you don't you might just wind up dead. Needless to say both would suck.
Sooner or later you will come to realize life can be a real ***** and you can do two things..........cry about how unfair it is or deal with in a proper (lawful) way to make yourself a better person in the community. Everyday is a test to make you better than yesterday.

[arnisador]

We've locked this thread while we consider the complaints we've received about some of the posts in it. We expect to unlock it once we've resolved those complaints. Thanks as always to those who use the "Report to Mod." feature to help us keep MartialTalk a friendly place.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[arnisador]

This is a general warning. Direct warnings are being sent to specific individuals where deemed appropriate. Keep the discussion polite and professional. Personal attacks will not be tolerated here. Please re-read the forum rules (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=314) if necessary.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-
-On behalf of the MartialTalk Moderation Team

[theneuhauser]

hey there, kenposcum



i interpreted you as saying that you are no longer involved in illegal action. that's good, between putting long hours in training and school, i cant see how you could have time to screw around.

i was alot like you im sure. ill pm ya. its unfortunate that your teacher is a loser, he doesnt seem to give much of a crap about you or what happens to you. there are plenty of people in the world like that. here's a little advice that might help; find another kenpo teacher, but dont just join the club. ask that person to spend some time with you and exchange stories. find someone you like alot. dont even limit yourself to kenpo, that's not what's important. bottom line is: you need a role model, a real one. it's that simple.

[GouRonin]

Send me 49.95$ USD and I will send you your black belt certificate custom done in crayola by myself. A value by any stretch.
:D

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by theneuhauser

hey there, kenposcum



i interpreted you as saying that you are no longer involved in illegal action. that's good, between putting long hours in training and school, i cant see how you could have time to screw around.

i was alot like you im sure. ill pm ya. its unfortunate that your teacher is a loser, he doesnt seem to give much of a crap about you or what happens to you. there are plenty of people in the world like that. here's a little advice that might help; find another kenpo teacher, but dont just join the club. ask that person to spend some time with you and exchange stories. find someone you like alot. dont even limit yourself to kenpo, that's not what's important. bottom line is: you need a role model, a real one. it's that simple.

Of all the posts in just this one particular firery thread, this is the best piece of advice that could ever be given to Ken-scum or anybody in his predicament for that matter! :asian: Thank you for that, and why didn't I think of such kind words of wisdom? :idunno:

I just hope that Kenpo follows through, and lives a proper, honorable life, and becomes the utmost positive role model that's demanded of us martial artists. :angel:

[chufeng]

Compassion comes in many forms.

Sometimes, lending an ear and a shoulder to lean on is appropriate.

Sometimes, however, compassion comes in the shape of a boot planted firmly on one's backside.

When one is feeling sorry for oneself...a good jolt sometimes helps...

To FEED the behavior with things like "Oh, it's alright...yes so and so is being mean...it's not your fault..." ENABLES the individual to continue in a funk and reinforces the "victim" mentality...

Most people in martial arts don't want to be viewed as victims...
Many start martial arts to PREVENT being a victim in the future...

For those who thought my comment was out of line; clearly, you do not understand the motivation behind it...Yiliquan1 figured it out and I think RyuShiKan could see where I was coming from...

I won't apologize...
The individual who started this thread admitted that he was just whining.
That self-assessment was what I hoped would happen.

I may have been wrong...maybe the individual needed to vent and was simply using us as a sounding board...

...then again, maybe he needed a boot in the butt...

Only HE can answer that.

Just to clarify my point…………….

...and to CD Hall...you might want to read up a little on different approaches to certain behaviors before your next attack on someone's character...have a nice day.

:asian:
chufeng

[theneuhauser]

chufeng, its fairly obvious what the intention of your first post was. i agree that sometimes tough love is necessary. i think people may have been offended by your choice of words.
but more importantly, i know where the kid is coming from. i spent most of my teenage years in the company of the horrible dirtbags that most folks only get to see on television. i had noone that i could depend on except myself, not my family, not faculty and defenitely not the murderers that called me their friend. this is important, so i hope you are reading this: that hard knocks crap is all i got growing up and ive got a feeling that our thread starter has gotten plenty of it too. it never did a damn thing for me except to tell me that yes, there is one more person out there that doesnt give a **** about anyone but themselves. now i dont think thats you, but thats how it comes off to someone who sees and hears negativity all the time. i think that he just needs a role model. someone that provides a good example and cares enough to want him to change. his teacher was obviously an ass hole that didnt give a damn about him. if he wasnt, then we probably wouldnt be discussing this matter at all. kenposcum finally realized it and hes venting to this community as if to ask, "please tell me i havent been wasting all this time and commitment".
and no dude, you havent.

[chufeng]

Theneuhauser,

I'll buy all of that...
as I said, I may have been wrong...but my intentions were to help NOT criticize or alienate...

I read your message and many others regarding this particular thread...and perhaps you are more on line with what this kid needs...(and YES I am an a$$hole...something I've worked hard at)...

I just get tired of all of the "victims" in this country...
No one wants to be accountable for their own actions...
No one wants to be accountable for their own life situation...
Someone else is ALWAYS at fault...

To that I say BS..."get up off your dead a$$ and do something about it." God gave each of us the capacity to be great...WE choose to exercise that capacity, or not.

Thanks for your insight...

:asian:
chufeng

[Michael Billings]

As Mr. Parker would say "Keep de faith brudda". Sigung LaBounty told me "You can always leave the Art, but the Art will never leave you."

Step away if you need to, you find jerks in every profession. Martial Arts is not excluded from this unfortunatly. The antipathy of your instructor is deplorable. It is unfortunate his school has flourished. The number of students through the doors is astounding, and look at the changes you made in your life, because of him? or despite him? Either way, he held a mirror up to you by his own responses and actions, and you did not like what you saw. Just make sure you pass what you learned on to others in your teaching.

I am sure you will be back to Kenpo, you have made it so much a part of your life that over the years, no matter what else you study, it will be in the context of your 'Mother Art' - Kenpo. Hopefully you will come back to add your interpretations and lessons on to others. Find a teacher, get a Black Belt. Anyone who says it doesn't matter is either fooling themselves, or truely mature in the best sense of the word. Of course it matters, we work so hard for it, it should matter. The disappointment you feel should not sour you on finding a teacher your respect. Now that you know what to look for, and what you need ... go get it.

I deal with the Dark Side for a living. Before I entered my current profession, I was a psychotherapist ... but not one you would be able to easily identify. I rode a Harley before the doctors and dentists and computer moguls decided it was cool. I worked with the worst of the worst, abused kids, sex offenders, assaultive men, parole and probationers ... not to mention the occassional cop. I know what tough love is.

Chufeng,
Challenging someone paradoxically can be appropriate, but not when you do not have a relationship with them. The Zen master with the stick does not apply in this case. The student / teacher relationship was not there. Sure KenpoScum is tough enough to take any comments any of us could make - that does not mean we should make those comments.

I know Doug Hall personally. He is not a bad guy. All that boy scout stuff is really who he is. You must have touched a serious nerve, maybe issues he or his family or friends have had to deal with. Maybe he was responding Dad-Like protecting someone he saw as having a hard time right now. He called em like he saw em. Although I think a private email would have put yall in the same ballpark, he responded on a serious level to what he thought of as abuse.

Talk about it guys and email someone before you assume the worst and attack. Moderators - good job!!! I hope you did not suspend either of these guys?

-Michael
UKS-Texas

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Hey there, Dougie, why the wild hair up your backside? :angry:

:angry:

I wondered why I didn't get any notices that there was a reply to this post.
Apparently we are not autosubscribed to threads we post to. I am not sure. I thought it used to work this way.

At any rate, I just checked this thread and I see there have been comments after me. I will have to read it and I'll post some type of civil response that falls within the rules.

However, if you check my 400 odd posts you can see that I am not one of those keyboard warriors I was generalizing about. It looked to me like Chufeng went out of his way to kick someone who was down. Mr. Billings did hit on something though, as I mentioned, I did drag a lower belt before our Head Instructor for something much less serious than this recently so maybe I was edgy. I know things can be misconstrued over the web, but obviously I was not the only one who took offense and it looks like at least one person contacted the Mods about this at some point.

As far as all that Christian stuff, if you guys see me do something offensive like this again, then I would hope you would jump on me the same way. I file that under "do unto others" so I expected someone to come at me somehow.

I'll go back and see what else was asked of me and make another reply later. But if you look around there have been a few people suspended lately and I was in a thread somewhere earlier where Clyde used that "keyboard warrior" stuff on someone and I thought it was good that he called it like he saw it. I admit a private message would have been effective, but I didn't want to be "sneaky" I wanted you guys to see what I thought because I was sure I was not alone and even if I make a mistake, I prefer to do it in public where there are witnesses and multiple points of view available.

Yes, I also stopped some scouts from hazing each other at our last meeting. There was a lot going on, they didn't listen to me, later several parents got involved when they started choking each other. So I think it is best to A) Discourage this type of behaviour, and B) Err on the side of preventing it from happening again.

Ironically I think Yilliquan posted as I was posting so when I saw my post go up I learned that Chefung was a teacher... and he probably has more experience than me and could probably kick my butt. That was a bit frightening, but again I hope I would speak up if I saw this in person. I think we should all act on the web the way we would act to each other if Kaith had invited us into his house (not much of a stretch in my opinion). I think a lot of people post on the web with the idea that they can say what they want with impunity.

I don't think I have ever seen a teacher come down on someone like this in person so I still don't think I'm out of line, but again, I'll go see what happened and reply to it being mindful not to throw any gas on a fire. I'm glad Yiliquan1 called me out.

As to Chefung, we are going to disagree on this because clearly Kenposcum was working hard (if we take him at his word, and we have to) and did not bring this on himself and did not deserve it... so like a prosecutor who blames a rape victim for the way she dresses or how she walks to her car alone, I again feel that he had no justification on picking on this guy who clearly being abused.

Again, I admit that Chefung and I are diametrically opposed in our view of what happened to Kenposcum and later with our mutual exchanges, so that being the case I will go now and see if I need to reply to anyone else. Thanks to everyone like Yiliquan1 and Mr. Billings who spoke up both against me and for me. I have reread the forum rules and I will be more careful to consider them in the future. While I don't think the tone of this thread is "ideal" I certainly think that there has been a good exchange of useful information and that is what I think this board should be for.
:asian:

[cdhall]

Originally posted by chufeng

Theneuhauser,

I'll buy all of that......

:asian:
chufeng

To theneuhauser,
I agree with chufen that you make good points.
I think I covered everything previously in my post.
I do want to say that i was not "hunting" chufeng prior to this and that I had been attracted some posts on the art Yilliquan (I think, is this the art someone joined because they had to study other systems?) and that I think I remember generally liking what these guys had to say. But this post really struck me as something that one veritable stranger would not say to another and I wanted my thoughts on that to be clear even. That is really about it. Maybe that is what I should have posted instead. There was perhaps a technical issue to why I posted as I did, but I don't want to start making excuses for myself. I'll try to be a bit more restrained in the future. I think both sides of this have been pretty well explored though so I'll shut up and be sure to subscribe to this thread. :asian:

[chufeng]

Mr. Billings,

Point taken...

Kenpo**** is not my student...

You see, I always see myself as a student and a teacher...perhaps others see themselves as only students of So & So...I see myself as everyone's student...

So, I'm learning more about HOW things get misconstrued on this medium...thanks for your comments.

CD Hall...no worries...if we met face to face tomorrow...I would NOT be upset with you...you clearly have Strong feelings about the way I responded...and, as I said, I may have been wrong...
but my intent was to motivate the young man to assume responsibility for his situation...

Victim mentality is WRONG...yes, some people ARE victims...but there seem to be a disproportionate number of victims and scapegoats in the world..."what are stumbling blocks for most, are stepping stones for some..." I would like to see more stepping stones and less stumbling blocks...that comes with a change in attitude and focus...accepting ownership for one's own circumstances (or at least ownership for HOW one deals with the circumstances one finds himself in).

good day...

:asian:
chufeng

[Bob Hubbard]

Mod/Admin Note:

We're glad that our members have resolved this issue amicably. It's important to remember how easily posts can be misconstrued in a medium such as this, where there are no verbal or body language cues.

On that same note, we will be cracking down more on those who fire off personal attacks. If you feel the need to 'rip someone a new one', either take it to PM, send it by email or better yet, take a few hours and cool off. Use the 'report' feature. We will look into it ASAP and take what action we see as appropriate.

We locked this thread to give everyone some time to cool off. Alot of good has come out of this thread, most importantly that folks cooled off and returned things to the mature level.

Thank you,

MartialTalk Moderation and Administration team.

[cdhall]

Originally posted by chufeng

...
CD Hall...no worries...if we met face to face tomorrow...I would NOT be upset with you...you clearly have Strong feelings about the way I responded...and, as I said, I may have been wrong...
but my intent was to motivate the young man to assume responsibility for his situation...
good day...

:asian:
chufeng

Thanks Kaith. I agree. I think this turned out amicably as you say.

Chufeng I also agree with a lot of what you say here. I'm glad I won't have worry about meeting up with you sometime. Even though I've been invited to the State Championships, I have to assume that could give me a hard time if you wanted to. I was not trying to go out of my way to be disrespectful, I wanted to respond "in kind" to what I perceived was going on.

I also agree with a good deal of what you have generally stated about victims and such. I do think Kenposcum was taking ownership of his situation and I think he was fishing here for his next move as theneuhauser pointed out.

I will look forward to the Mod crackdown even if I get cracked later on, but I will take steps to avoid it. As far as the Christianity stuff that RyuShiKan noticed. I took this like Jesus took the moneychanging in the temple episode in Matthew 21:11-13. Like it says on my website, I'm new at this Christianity stuff, this may not be an exact parallel, but it is how I was struck.

As far as being a Cub Scout Leader, that must be on my resume. My son has moved to Boy Scouts now so I will update that line. Thanks for the reminder.
:asian:

[arnisador]

Remember that there are five members of the MartialTalk Administartion/Moderation Team, and we try to confer on issues such as this. We have five members not only due to the amount of work--which is not trivial--but also due to the need for a balanced consensus. This means that it may take time for us to all check our e-mail and discuss the matter because different people are online at different times. In this medium people often expect a near-instant response but it often takes us at least a full day to discuss things and reach a consensus on a path of action. Patience please! We're dedicated to keeping martialTalk friendly but also to being fair to our members.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[chufeng]

When I first started frequenting the internet (circa 1988) it was much more difficult to navigate...it was also MORE heavily censored.

Postings to WebBoards like this were screened BEFORE the post...it did not allow for a free flow of ideas...it did not allow for arguments to work themselves out...

That is why I enjoy this board...the moderators step in when necessary, but most of the chat is real time...and free exchange of ideas IS encouraged...

A big Thank You to the moderators, from me... :D

chufeng

[arnisador]

Originally posted by chufeng

A big Thank You to the moderators, from me...

Thanks to all who have recently expressed this idea; it is a lot of work, even when no result is visible to our members (indeed, even when no action is taken), and in Mr. Hubbard's case running MartialTalk is also an expense. We appreciate your appreciation!

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-
-On behalf of the MartialTalk Moderation Team

[Shinzu]

i am sorry this has happend to you. a similar event happened to me many years go.

i was testing for my green belt. i thought i did rather well, but the judges didnt think so. they told me my technques "stunk" (not very professional for instructors and judges in my opinion). i failed.

instead they passed brown belts which in their words "should not have really passed". i was very hurt since i was of lower rank and there was much favortism.

i quit the MA for a couple of years, but eventually went back. im glad i did.

perhaps finding a better dojo and instructor is the answer for you. sometimes it is hard to see the light until you are almost ending your journey.... whatever you decide, i wish you the best of everythig.

[CoopersVee]

Kemposcum,

You are a remarkably selfish young man. Fortunately, you are a young man and those of us who are no longer young men can hardly condemn you for being what we, ourselves, once were. Nevertheless, I am deeply, deeply disappointed in your post.

I sat on your evaluation committee. I am the only "staff" blackbelt at Downers Grove that does not have a blackbelt in Kempo and, Kemposcum, you know exactly who I am. When I first learned of your post, I shook my head sadly and resolved to do nothing, but once I read your post, I felt that I had to respond. You allege incompetence where, in fact, there is tremendous skill. You allege apathy where, in fact, your development was a matter of great concern. You also allege a conspiracy to deprive you of your black belt.

You spent seven years in the dojo. Your fellow brown belt, Jim, had spent fourteen. No one at Downers Grove has come away with a blackbelt in under 10 years. Why do you feel so slighted, so singled-out for persecution in light of such facts? It is true that Sensei Andy has not made it easy to get a black belt. He didn't buy Downers Grove Karate to make money. He bought it to make martial artists.

Didn't you ever wonder about my position in the dojo? I don't have a blackbelt in Kempo, my blackbelts are in Jiu Jitsu and Tae Kwon Do. You could say that I trade a Jiu Jitsu class for dojo time, but in reality, I'm too much of a pain in Andy's neck for that. He could be teaching another class during my time. He wouldn't have to worry about insurance for me. In truth, I'm there for two reasons. First and foremost is my friendship with the blackbelts at Downers Grove. Second, I am an independent viewpoint for important decisions - like blackbelts. I don't know the system. I know a lot of it because I've been around since 1988, but I don't know all of it. While Andy and Terry and Harry and Mike look at individual techniques, while they EXPECT this or that move next in kata, I do not. I evaluate you from another perspective. I look at your speed, power and focus. I look to see what you are really accomplishing when you make a move. In short, I am there as part of a quality assurance program. I bring this up because, though you may think otherwise, you didn't have as good a test as Jim did. When you watch Jim do techniques, you can see the imaginary people his is striking. That is a level of mastery that you haven't reached yet. You are starting to touch on it, but you aren't there yet. Your ability to kick the crap out of people is not the only criterion you are being evaluated on. Your memorization of techniques is not the only criterion you are being evaluated on. Your physical condition is certainly not the only criterion you are being evaluated on. A man, like Jim, who has been away from the dojo for nearly 20 weeks while pursuing his career as a federal officer cannot be expected to be in the same physical condition as a person who is free to come to the dojo every day. As you should well know, people don't schedule their own black belt tests.

This letter is already going on too long but I must address one more thing. Your characterization of Jim as a "fat-assed cop" is one of the most hurtful things it has EVER been my misfortune to read. When I think of the number of things that Jim has done for you, the friendship he has extended to you, the times he has defended you in front of others, I cannot believe that you said that. This is a person that you have sweated and bled with, and yet you couldn't even show the simple grace to celebrate with him on the night he completed THE SAME GOAL YOU HAD SET FOR YOURSELF. Think about it! A child laments that he didn't get EVERYTHING on his Christmas List. A man shares in the joys of his friends. You should have smiled. You should have cheered the loudest. You should have let Jim point to you and say, "You're next." Instead, you stormed out of the dojo. Remember that "dan" also means adult.

You have a great degree of talent. I hope you realize it. I hope that one day, you look back on your time at Downers Grove Karate and see it for the good it did you. More than that, I hope you can see it for the friends you had there in spite of the fact that while you were there, you couldn't see them.

[J-kid]

Hnmmm i cant really say what you should do. Perhaps take some college classes get a good job and take up martial arts after that again.

[chufeng]

I had a student in Hawaii who was "asked" to leave the Army...
He trained in (and was ranked fairly high) HwaRangDo prior to our training together (trained with Echanis)...
He settled in Arizona...
I made a trip to visit him so he could test for his first sash...

He was unable to complete the prerequisites and then was unable to perform the first form in our system (stage fright???)...all of the rest of his test was flawless...

I failed him...

He, as an adult, said that he would have been VERY disappointed if I would have given him a "token" promotion...

I think the THAT says it all...

He was a "senior" in another system and failed our first test (not because he didn't have talent) because I wouldn't compromise on our system's standards...he RESPECTED that...

CoopersVee, thank you for your perspective on this unfortunate topic...

:asian:
chufeng

[Michael Billings]

Although I have already commented on this post, I feel like another note is appropriate.

We only see what other's want us to see of themselves on a forum like this. It gives us a much better perspective in how to support and help others when we have thoughtful comment, by anyone. In this case CoopersVee is giving us another side of KenpoScum's story. Our perspective is always our own, and hopfully what was shared in KenpoScum's first post, was venting, and he has gotten some resolution by now ... one way or the other.

We were all young once, and sometimes more than once. I hope that we all remember how we have matured in the Art, but also personally through the relationships and discipline, not just the material we learn in our Journey.

I think the maturity level was obvious in KenpoScum's first post, and a lot of us sought to help him resolve this within himself. These are his issues ... ours are how we responded to him, good and bad!! Hopefully this was a mirror, once again he can hold up to himself and see what he needs to see. As it does for us!

CoopersVee, thanks for sharing the other side. I am sure that for people who were not there, like myself, it is difficult to "judge" what was "right" and "wrong", so we shouldn't. But rather look at how we responded to each other now.

Respectfully,
Oos,
-Michael
UKS-Texas:asian:

[GouRonin]

There is three sides to every story. His/his/the truth.

I suspect the two of them are a little full of **** in some way and the truth is in-between.

Kenposcum kinda sounds like a kid for sure CoopV but you sound like a know it all Dad with a cucumber in his arse. Jeez, pack you bags kids, we're going on a guilt trip! Weeeee!

[Bod]

The third side is your opinion then Gou?

It doesn't matter. As long as you insult both sides in a dispute it makes you sound even handed, and not like some prat with a huge wooden spoon, and a desperate desire to appear witty.

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by GouRonin

There is three sides to every story. His/his/the truth.

I suspect the two of them are a little full of **** in some way and the truth is in-between.

Kenposcum kinda sounds like a kid for sure CoopV but you sound like a know it all Dad with a cucumber in his arse. Jeez, pack you bags kids, we're going on a guilt trip! Weeeee!

I don't know Gou, maybe kenposcum needed that little thrashing for posting a thread like this! I agree though there usually is three sides to ever story!
I hope things work out well for kenposcum and CoopersVee, in the MA when people begin to love their art, and get involved in a liflong journey, emotions usually run very high, sometimes things are takne wrong and blown out of proportion for that reason, maybe thats what happened, either way, nothing should stop you in your training.

7sm

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Bod
The third side is your opinion then Gou?

I don't believe I said that.

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I don't know Gou, maybe kenposcum needed that little thrashing for posting a thread like this! I agree though there usually is three sides to ever story!

Hold on to your shorts because...I agree with you. But I will go on to say they both sound like whiney kids. One is whining that he didn't get fair treatment, as if life was EVER fair, and the other sounds like he's a huge guilt trip whiner.


Originally posted by 7starmantis
I hope things work out well for kenposcum and CoopersVee, in the MA when people begin to love their art, and get involved in a liflong journey, emotions usually run very high, sometimes things are takne wrong and blown out of proportion for that reason, maybe thats what happened, either way, nothing should stop you in your training.

D@mn, I agree with you again. Scary. But I doubt it.

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by GouRonin


D@mn, I agree with you again. Scary. But I doubt it.

Damnit, now I have this feeling like the sky is goign to fall or something!!

[JonnyB]

Kemposcum,

Ok so has anything come from posting this no I don't think so. If anything Downers Grove Karate dislikes you even more for taking it to this level this immaturity doesn't surprise me though I always felt that you were childish even though I am younger. So did you even think that maybe that was a reason you didn't git black because you haven't matured enough to become black. At least Downers Grove Karate doesn't have to worry about you being a lose canning while sparing and hurting people in the lower ranks.

[GouRonin]

Hey JonnyB,

Is everyone at that school a self-righteous, I-told-you-so, holier-than-thou, stuck up snob who thinks their **** don't stink... or is it just you and coopV?

I think we all got the point. CoopV and KenpoScum were both kinda in the wrong and your added 2 cents doesn't seem to be helping anything.

It always occurs to me that the same dorks who claim to know the true attibutes of being a black belt are the ones who put up the condecending airs.

[fringe_dweller]

Can we get this thread locked or something? I think any positives that can possibly be taken from this thread have been - from here it's only going to be downhill.

Respectfully

[GouRonin]

Lock 'er up.
:asian:

[arnisador]

We concur. This thread is now locked.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[arnisador]

This thread is locked, but feel free to start other threads that discuss related topics. The general issue of what to do if one feels one is no longer progressing at one's school but one has invested much time there, for example, is certainly worthy of further discussion.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-