THUNDERING HAMMERS

(Defense against a right straight punch)

1. Step forward to 10:30 with your left foot into a left neutral
bow, while doing a left inward block.

2. Slide right leg up into a left Close Kneel stance (buckling
attackers knee with your left knee) while doing a right inward
forearm to attackers lower stomach while raising your left fist up
high.

3.Slide your right elbow up to check attackers right arm and grab
onto their upper arm while turning clockwise into a right close
kneel stance (buckling attackers knee with your left knee) and
doing a left downward hammerfist to attackers left kidney.

4.Slide your left arm up attackers back and grab onto their right
upper forearm (to replace your right hand) while raising your right
fist up high. While turning back into a left close kneel stance
(buckling attackers knee with your left knee) do a right
downward hammerfist to the base of attackers neck.

I just learned this tech about 2 weeks ago, so I'm big time new
at it. And I know Mr C will probably give me a hard time about
asking this ;) . But what if the attacker doesn't
bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower
stomach ?? What do you do then? Go into another technique?

Tell them they arn't reacting right and ask if they would start over and try to mug you again. ;-)

the position try to move into the others in the category. Flashing Wings, Leaping Crane that's using the high line. Depending on your position again maybe you want Brushing the Storm, or Escape from the Storm. Maybe this will help. Personally I'd use leaping crane, insert a rake or something to move across the body as you modify your stance to finish it.

Originally posted by Kirk

I just learned this tech about 2 weeks ago, so I'm big time new
at it. And I know Mr C will probably give me a hard time about
asking this ;) . But what if the attacker doesn't
bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower
stomach ?? What do you do then? Go into another technique?

Then your not hitting them hard enough :eek:


:asian:

Originally posted by Klondike93

Then your not hitting them hard enough :eek:


:asian:

We did this technique with a "dead arm" in Mr. Parker Jrs last seminar if you remember. I almost broke my guy in half.

Let me know if you get to someone who won't double over, but the short answer is "Graft/Adapt and Overcome."

I have a hard time doing a technique sometimes in technique line in class, I just hit and move and track and contour and thread and buckle/sweep/check so much that I get in trouble sometimes.

At some point you will have so many techniques that you will not even stop to realize that you did not do one "by the book." Trust me.
:karate:

Just a quick note -

If the person doesn't bend, bouce off his ribcage and bladder area and go right into "Sleeper," striking with an inner diagonal inner wrist strike to the far side Phrenic Nerve.

I was also taught the following:

5. Switch (jump) stance to a right neutral facing 2:00 o'clock and simultaneously execute a right outward back-knuckle to opponents face.

6. Whilst switching to right forward bow, grab face with right hand claw and rip (from back-knuckle return) whilst simultaneously twisting head with left hand in opposite direction, i.e. breaking neck.

Is this a customization of the base technique, or part of an extension?

Originally posted by Kirk
I just learned this tech about 2 weeks ago, so I'm big time new at it.
And I know Mr. C will probably give me a hard time about asking this ;) .


LOL, Yes, first off you must understand what you are doing in Kenpo at the rank you are at! In the era of White to Green, you are learning many, many things. Basic movements, drills, developing coordination, learning history, etc. etc..

Is Self Defense a priority at this point ................... NO! How can you expect to be able to defend yourself if you can't move well yet!

First you need to learn and "develop" some defensive understandings and be able to "move" properly and develop reactions that would be useful in defending yourself. To accomplish this we teach basics, forms, sets, and self defense techniques. There are "PHASES" to everything... Ideal........... What If.......... Formulation.

When you first learn the techniques you should "develop" them for a while (how long - well, this is up to the instructor) I personally like you to stay in the "Ideal Phase" for several months so as to really set in the actions and develop some adequate coordination with the movements (for some shorter, for some longer). Then, at some point you and your instructor need to look into the other "phases" but NOT 2 weeks after you learn the technique! You are complicating things for yourself prematurely. I think you are asking Why..... WAY too soon. Not that I would suggest you not ask it at all but come on, in the proper time frame. Lets not get the cart ahead of the horse!!!!

Originally posted by Kirk
But what if the attacker doesn't
bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower stomach ??
What do you do then? Go into another technique?

See, you know the Phases......... You even stated what if !!!!

So, ok "what if" the opponent doesn't bend over, what do you think you do.......
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Answer....... something else!! What would you expect me to say!

Exactly what should you do...... you ask?

50 pushups!! NOW






:asian:

Of course, there's another answer here: if they don't succumb to the sheer power of your right hand, continue the technique.

I understand that many will disagree, but kenpo's techniques really seem to be built around the military cliche, "expect success, plan for failure." If your ability to avoid confrontaation fails, run away; if you can't run, talk; if you can't talk...you know what I mean.

When you throw that right hand in "Thundering Hammers," several things have already gone wrong...so what's one more? If that right doesn't work, pivot and go for the kidney shot...

Wait for the what-ifs 'till later. I was taught that kenpo teaches self-defense from moment 1, but also that much of your sort of question gets answered in the extensions, up around black belt.

I have three questions, though: a) why are you grabbing their arm, when the checks are already there? b) are you "cocking" the free hands up behind the ears? c) would shuffling on all three hammers help?

Originally posted by rmcrobertson


I have three questions, though: a) why are you grabbing their arm, when the checks are already there? b) are you "cocking" the free hands up behind the ears? c) would shuffling on all three hammers help?


1. I don't grab.
2. Shoot from point of origin.
3. Shuffle when need to.

There is also an extension to this technique that Mr. Planas has that is very devestating. It has a really awesome flow but I have never seen it written down in any technique sequence.

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

1. I don't grab.
2. Shoot from point of origin.
3. Shuffle when need to.


Ditto, except I was taught to step drag in while executing the
forearm.

Originally posted by Kirk

Ditto, except I was taught to step drag in while executing the
forearm.

How's that in confilct with what he says? Point of origin and with (doing the forearm strike WITH the step drag) don't seem to be in conflict to me.

Um...ah...the original post specifically mentioned grabbing the arm, to begin with.

Second, I'd argue that sure, "shuffle when need to." But in a blinding flash of insight actuated by Clyde's severing my legs at the calf, I came to see that the shuffles are essential to the technique. Among other things, "Thundering Hammers," teaches upper, middle, and lower case.

Third--it's called what it's called because the hammers thunder down. From above. Perhaps the commonest mistake I see in this technique, especially with those who have recently learned it, is a failure to "cock" the free hand up high, by the ear, as in Long 4. This results in a) a loss of power, b) a collapse of timing, c) a loss of a proper check (which is why the grab was mentioned, I suspect), d) missing the targets.

My first teacher, little Toni, was insistent about bringing the hand up high. She was right. Point of origin, by all means, but not as dogma. Does "Sleeper," (in the same family) quite move from point of origin? does "Parting Wings?"

Thanks for the discussion. Now, back to "California's Gold."

Originally posted by Kirk

Ditto, except I was taught to step drag in while executing the
forearm.

The first time I learned this I was taught to step-drag to hit the lead leg with the right knee. I was taught to use my knees with the strikes. Kind of hard to do though.

:asian:

Originally posted by Kirk

I just learned this tech about 2 weeks ago, so I'm big time new
at it. And I know Mr C will probably give me a hard time about
asking this ;) . But what if the attacker doesn't
bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower
stomach ?? What do you do then? Go into another technique?

Do what any self-respecting Kenpoist would do...

REACH DOWN, GRAB HIS TESTICLES, AND SMASH THEM IN YOUR HAND!!! :lol:

:shrug: Here comes the next question... What if he doesn't have balls? :eek:

Originally posted by rmcrobertson


Does "Sleeper," (in the same family) quite move from point of origin? does "Parting Wings?"



I'm not quite sure what your talking about in sleeper. Sure everything comes from point of origin. This might also be another actual different thread but I do my strike for sleeper as an inward diagonal strike from the obscure zone. Now if my hand gets blocked some how then I can freely move into flashing mace, leaping crane, well any other technique in the crane family.

Our version is the same up until that point, but there's a little bit extra on the end:

After the downwards hammerfist, bring the right hand down and bounce it off the knee and up under their chin as you switch stances, then come into a twist stance and as you come around smash the mouth with another hammerfist.

If you've done the foortwork correctly, you should be able to sweep as you step out.

Is that an extension of some kind, or something not in the EPAK version? That's how we do it from the start so I don't know...

Ian.

10. Thundering Hammers (Front- Right Step Through Punch)

1. An opponent from 12:00 comes at you with a right step through punch.
2. Step your left foot to 10:30 into a left neutral bow facing 1:30 as you execute a left inward block to your opponent's right arm. Note: Your right arm will be hanging.
3. Shuffle towards 12:00 utilizing back-up mass as you pivot into a left close kneel and execute a right horizontal reverse hammer fist to your opponent's mid-section. Note: Your left arm will cock high above your in preparation for your opponent's response. Your right knee will check your opponent's right leg and buckle it.
4. Shift into a right close kneel facing 4:30 as your right hand checks across your opponent's back and essentially slaps the back of their head and stopping at their right shoulder. Continue the flow of motion to maximize the marriage of gravity and execute a left inward overhead hammer fist to your opponent's kidneys. Note: Your right hand will be cocked high, your left knee will be putting pressure on the back of your opponent's right knee.
5. Shift back into a left close kneel facing 10:30 as your left hand checks across your opponent's back as you utilize gravitational marriage and execute a right inward overhead hammer fist to your opponent's neck. Note: Your left knee will again put pressure on the top of your opponent's right kneecap.
6. Step your left foot to 7:30 into a right neutral bow facing 1:30 as your right hand circles forward and clockwise to the left side of your opponent's face. Execute a right inward thumb rake across their eyes, rolling their face toward you. As your continues the circling action, continue to loop clockwise and down execute a right downward back fist to your opponent's right temple. Note: The follow through will cause your right hand to end by your right hip.
7. Push drag to 1:30 as you execute an upward palm strike/claw to your opponent's face.
8. Circle your right hand counterclockwise to the left side of your opponent's face and grab your opponent's chin. Place your right forearm on top of your opponent's head to act as a fulcrum. As your right hand pulls your opponent's chin counterclockwise simultaneously step your left foot to 1:30 into a right neutral bow and have your left hand force your opponent's right shoulder down to turn your opponent's body and force his back onto your right knee.
9. Execute a right inward overhead hammer fist to your opponent's sternum.
10. From your right hammer fist, execute a right inward forearm rake across your opponent's face as you execute a left knee kick to the back of your opponent's head.
11. Plant your left foot back to 1:30 as you force your opponent to fall to the ground. As your opponent lands, execute a right inward downward looping round kick to your opponent's groin.
12. Instantly drop your right knee onto your opponent's solar plexus as you simultaneously execute a right vertical punch down to your opponent's face. (Your left hand will be positionally checking your opponent's right arm.)
13. Step into a right front crossover to 1:30 and cross out.


NOW: I do not THUNDER FROM ABOVE ... exactly. I maintain a check on the arm as my hand rapidly executes a small circle orbit around my head before striking the kidney or cervical area. I utilize the same rotation with a little less of a cocking action. Different strokes for different folks. Or as I hear at work all the time ... it is the DIVERSITY that makes us interesting.

Yes, you can graft into Sleeper or Dance of Death, both are in the same family, just different target openings at the time of attack. I like to rebound off the midsection anyway, on my way to the reverse handsword in Sleeper anyway. Creates a little borrowed force as they hit my hand.

Oos,
-Michael

After the elbow sandwhich.

1. Circle the left hand clockwise to grab the chin of the attacker with your left forearm on the right side of the attacker's face.
2. From this position (insert: a right back knuckle to the mastoid of the attacker) cock the right hand up high above your head as you execute a left knee strike to the base of the neck or head of the attacker while still holding the chin.
3. Plant the left foot back to it's point of origin while dropping a right inward downward forearm to the throat, clavical, sternum, or solar plexus when settling in your stance.
4. Let the attacker fall to the ground. Immediately execute a right looping roundhouse to any available target.
5. Have the right foot scrape/stomp down the right arm of the attacker as you double cover out.

Hope this helps.

Jeff, I like it. It would work fine. This is the one we were working in 1989 - 1990. It is all good stuff.

Oos,
-Michael

That variation in which I put up came from Mr. Planas. I'll give credit where it is due. :)

While a lot has been said about the "hand work" in this technique, I personally find the "knee work" to be more effective at dropping an attacker.

When I first saw the technique demonstrated, a buddy of mine showed me the technique just using his hands to check. On each stance change (from left to right close kneels), he dropped his weight a little more. Buckling does not even BEGIN to describe what was going on with my leg! As he said, "The trick: Screw them to the floor."

Within the limits of practicing the technique (and not crippling your training partner), using the close kneel effectively can help with directing your attacker's actions.

Hope this helps....

Tad

Go to ikka.us and there is a video clip of it being performed by larry kongaika

"But what if the attacker doesn't bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower stomach ??"

The knee checks play a huge part in the effectiveness of this technique, but in reponse to your original question.. Have you considered changing the initial strike? Instead of a forearm across the lower stomach, what about a groin strike using either a ridge hand or thumb knuckle strike? If there is any doubt as to the effectiveness of a technique, analyze it and see if it needs changing.

Respects,
Bill Parsons

Originally posted by bdparsons
"But what if the attacker doesn't bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower stomach ??"

The knee checks play a huge part in the effectiveness of this technique, but in reponse to your original question.. Have you considered changing the initial strike? Instead of a forearm across the lower stomach, what about a groin strike using either a ridge hand or thumb knuckle strike? If there is any doubt as to the effectiveness of a technique, analyze it and see if it needs changing.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Let me just say this, I know for a fact that Mr. Parker called Thundering Hammers and Dance of Death "cousins"....

Originally posted by Kirk
But what if the attacker doesn't
bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower
stomach ?? What do you do then? Go into another technique?

There is no One answer to this question we all learn by the time we become Purple belts, there are an infinate number of variations for any technique. If any kenpo practicianer thinks about it they can probably come up with 20 or so possibilities for variations to Thundering Hammers. In any case, you assess position, identify vulnerable targets, and employ most effective weapon. This is the very reason we teach not only what the movement is, but the mechanics of that motion as well. Then the student is able to experiment with a technique and discover on their own what the possibilities are.

Originally posted by bdparsons
"But what if the attacker doesn't bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower stomach ??"

The knee checks play a huge part in the effectiveness of this technique, but in reponse to your original question.. Have you considered changing the initial strike? Instead of a forearm across the lower stomach, what about a groin strike using either a ridge hand or thumb knuckle strike? If there is any doubt as to the effectiveness of a technique, analyze it and see if it needs changing.

Respects,
Bill Parsons


Obviously all of the posts are good with good thought. So you finish with something else in the family group or hit them harder or etc.etc.

... with good discussion guys. Have enjoyed re-reading it.

Oss,
-Michael

Originally posted by Kirk
I just learned this tech about 2 weeks ago, so I'm big time new
at it. And I know Mr C will probably give me a hard time about
asking this ;) . But what if the attacker doesn't
bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower
stomach ?? What do you do then? Go into another technique?

I've read this post...AWESOME! Great ideas and insight from many.

Another suggestion is to do Flashing Wings if he DOESN'T bend over. It follows the same flow of action as Thundering Hammers.:asian:

Originally posted by bdparsons
"But what if the attacker doesn't bend over when you execute a right inward forearm to the lower stomach ??"

The knee checks play a huge part in the effectiveness of this technique, but in reponse to your original question.. Have you considered changing the initial strike? Instead of a forearm across the lower stomach, what about a groin strike using either a ridge hand or thumb knuckle strike? If there is any doubt as to the effectiveness of a technique, analyze it and see if it needs changing. Respects, Bill Parsons


A lot of very good energy and thinking on this string has been paid to the "What if Phase".... which is good. However, I would like to address the background behind this technique and its family.

In response to Mr. Parsons......

Changing the initial strike was the foundation of these techniques.

The Dance of Death, Thundering Hammers and the Sleeper are all related thru the first blocking action. Originally the Dance of Death (dod) was taught for a right punch with the left leg lead, thus a complete opening to the groin with a reverse hand sword while the right hand hangs at our waist.

Out of a what if question came the next technique....

Thundering Hammers.......... question was..... "What if" the opponents right leg is in the lead and the groin is NOT open for a reverse hand sword? Mr. Parker then instructed that you use the inward horizontal forearm to the midsection which now WAS an open target.

Then someone asked "What if" the opponent is turned sideways so the midsection is not an open target now......

Mr. Parker then taught again to move up and use a reverse hand sword to the neck, thus you have the birth of the "Sleeper".

Endings varied between the 3 techniques but the beginnings had simple adjustments to teach formulation.

and now you know......... the rest of the story.....

:asian:

It is nice to know where it all came from. Thanks.

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

and now you know......... the rest of the story.....


Excellent reply Mr. C, glad to see your input on martial talk again. I'm sure we all hope you post again soon.

Thundering Hammer, Sleeper are two of my favourite techniques. Nice to see the history of how "Family Groupings" are developed.

Dot

Thank you as always Mr.C on sharing your knowledge. It's nice to see/hear the evolution of techniques.:D

I was wondering if you guys could go into a bit more detail of the type and delivery method of natural weapons used for the first strike to the body...

Originally posted by Kirk
THUNDERING HAMMERS

2. Slide right leg up into a left Close Kneel stance (buckling
attackers knee with your left knee) while doing a right inward
forearm to attackers lower stomach while raising your left fist up
high.



I find that an inward forearm applys a flat weapon to a flat target which spreads the impact over too much surface area. At what angle is your elbow for this strike?

Originally posted by cdhall
We did this technique with a "dead arm" in Mr. Parker Jrs last seminar if you remember. I almost broke my guy in half.


What do you mean by a "dead arm"? Is this different from the inward forearm described above?

Originally posted by Michael Billings
10. Thundering Hammers (Front- Right Step Through Punch)

3. Shuffle towards 12:00 utilizing back-up mass as you pivot into a left close kneel and execute a right horizontal reverse hammer fist to your opponent's mid-section.

Does a reverse hammer fist strike with the two main knuckles, the top of the fist or the top of the thumb?

I have seen (and practiced) this technique with a two knuckle strike (palm facing outward) delivered with a bend maintained in the elbow. If this does not bend the attacker over, then the combination of a left knee buckle and an upward/outward forearm through the attacker's right armpit cancels both their width and depth.

Personally, I have trouble making proper use of the first right knee buckle/check without risking a direct clash of knees while I and my attacker step forward. Working one-on-one with a partner, I can find the right spot most times, although when running a technique line (with different people stepping forward in different ways) then I err on the side of caution and perform my first buckle with the left knee.

As always, comments welcome!

Go to ikka.us and go to the video clips portion and you will see it being performed the way ed parker taught it.

Originally posted by Handsword
What do you mean by a "dead arm"? Is this different from the inward forearm described above?

It was a process of loosening our bodies and just letting our arms motion be dictated by the momentum of our bodies torque. Basically a systema principle Edmund probably picked up from Vlad while training in that system. We also did some "systema" go with the flow of the attacker ground defense stuff as I recall and some systema-like body lever positioning things, and filipino hubud drills...hey, wait a minute...was that a Kenpo seminar we were at? :D

jb:asian:

alright so your saying that as you execute the right inward horizontal forearm, you raise your fist high in the air?
............. i'm going to tell you now, if you do that there won't be a next move. you will be unconcious. why you ask?
because the guy knocked you out with his right elbow.:asian:

I believe in the ideal phase here that after the initial block the attacker should be checked on the width zone. This should give you the "ideal" shot for the inward horizontal forearm strike. As the attacker "ideally" is supposed to bend over at the waist your right elbow should slide up to act as a check at the tricep of the attacker.
My opinion would be that if you didn't get the attacker checked enough then you'd probably better move into brushing or escape from the storm. That is if your right arm is still in close and across the mid-section of the attacker. :asian: