Are we better off or worse?

[GouRonin]

A while ago I went with Roland to a seminar in martial arts. During the seminar the instructor pulled out a wooden shinai and gave him a clip on the back of the head to inspire him to get his technique right. He did.

But it makes me wonder, I've heard stories about instructors walking around with big sticks etc and when students were not getting technique right etc.

We seem to have gotten away from ideas like that? Why? Are they good or bad ideas?

[7starmantis]

I think that technique works well on those who are serious students wanting to learn, however, in todays world needing to put bread on the table means taking on students of not-so-serious stature. I think if you used that approach on them they might quit, then you would loose money. It all comes back to the business aspect of it.

Personally, I wish it was used more often, it would deffinatly light a fire under me to get it right!!

7sm

[Elfan]

Well most martial arts schools today are commercial in nature. Beating kids with sticks is a fast way to go out of business.

[c2kenpo]

Originally posted by Elfan

Beating kids with sticks is a fast way to go out of business.

Beating anyone with a stick is a good way to end up without any money!
And I think that if you have the right instructors and they can show you what you are doing wrong or better yet how to make what you are doing more effective for you, then the stick is simply a pain related item that is no longer needed in todays world.

However, feeding a few unruly children to the iguana in the back may not be half-baked.......muttering to self..

:EG:

[Baoquan]

My first instructor (who is also my dad) has an excellent method for inspiring a student to get techniques right.

After telling you how, and why ur doing it wrong, if u still dont concentrate on gettin it right, he pulls on the gloves, and demostrates the consequences of not doin it right. Never hard - he's never even marked anyone doing this - but generally so easily that i for one, was always soo embarrassed that i worked my @ss off to get it right.

IMHO, this is a great teaching method. It demostrates why a tech is done as it is, without resorting to knocking skulls to enforce rote learning.

BTW, now i ALWAYS keep my chin tucked :D

cheers

Baoquan

[c2kenpo]

Originally posted by Baoquan

BTW, now i ALWAYS keep my chin tucked :D

cheers

Baoquan [/B]

This is called kinetic learning. Very simple to understand...if you keep getting hit on the top of your head and then finally you put your arm up and it stops it the pain goes away..
I think that is how I figured out the upward block......:hammer:

[chufeng]

For those interested,
There is a similar thread in the Karate forum entitled "Is karate too big?"

:asian:
chufeng

[fissure]

Well most martial arts schools today are commercial in nature. Beating kids with sticks is a fast way to go out of business
This sums it up well! My first dojo bach in England was run by my math teacher, in the b- ball gym. If you didn't like the servere methods you were encouraged not to come back.Needless to say this wouldn't pay the bills in todays commercial schools.
To be honest I think only 3 of 4 of the colored belt adults at the dojang I teach at would appreciate 'old stlye' training.

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by c2kenpo
the stick is simply a pain related item that is no longer needed in todays world.

I dunno. I would quite enjoy beating a few people.
:rolleyes:

[c2kenpo]

Originally posted by GouRonin

I dunno. I would quite enjoy beating a few people.
:rolleyes:

I never said I wouldn't enjoy it.:EG:

Just said it wasn't cost effective....of course I still like feeding kids to the lizards....:EG:

[fissure]

On a serious note. Training is just not the way it used to be. Everything has changed. People come in to a school now looking for a fun pastime. They get a knot on their forearm or a busted lip, and head for the hills.

[Marginal]

Kinda begs the question, would those easy to deter people be in a class 500 years ago? Odds are, they'd be too busy working themselves to death in a field somewhere. No chance to learn at all.

[Phil Elmore]

Teachers aren't gods, and their students aren't slaves. The average student pays to learn, not to be abused. If you can't successfully impart knowledge without beating on your students, what does that say about your ability to teach?

[Eraser]

OUCH... geez i hope tthat my instructor never hits us with a stick.. but... our school does have an effective way to help us get things right.. if we are lazy and not at our best.. its called Push-Ups.. and when you have to keep repeatedly doing them..(in front of the rest of the class.. or they make the rest of the class do them as well) you tend to want to get the task at hand right...oh and if you have a broken hand\arm.. you get to run instread.. LOL..:D That's effective enough for me!!!:shrug:

[Roland]

I think the problem is, stuff like this just gets out of hand. This is where you wind up with schools not making people into good martial artists, just weeding out the ones who are not naturals.
This happens in the "dungeon dojos" mostly.
Personally, I do not mind getting wapped everyone once in awhile, as long as there is purpose behind it!

[GouRonin]

The look on your face was priceless. Of course I thought I was next.

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Roland


Personally, I do not mind getting wapped everyone once in awhile, as long as there is purpose behind it!

Exactly. You can't just go smacking people arbitrarily. there's got to be a reason behind it, and you have to have a certain rapport with the student to be able to make it work.

You and the student have to have a good enough understanding that they know you're trying to help them, not just being an *******.

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
You can't just go smacking people arbitrarily. there's got to be a reason behind it.

Maybe you're not listening. That is the reason. I just want to smack them for no reason.

Why is that so hard to understand?
:confused:


Originally posted by nightingale8472
they know you're trying to help them, not just being an *******.

Why can't I do both?
:confused:

[Bod]

That's why I love judo. Every time you do something wrong you hit the floor. If you land wrong then you break something.

This is a very quick way to learn, but then again there is no such thing as a commercially successful judo school.

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Bod

...but then again there is no such thing as a commercially successful judo school.

Man I wish I lived where you do, one of the most "commercially successful" schools in my area is a judo school, turns out belts like Willy Wonka.

7sm

[Bod]

You may be surprised at what a good level of skill many of the belts might have. Judo is a bit of an 'in at the deep end' art, and it is easy to progress quickly at first. Then you either get the bit about softness and keep progressing, albeit a bit slower, or you stick at brown belt for the rest of your life.

Judo is out of fashion in the UK, and it hasn't been a moneyspinner since the 1950's. People do pay a lot for BJJ classes where they learn exactly the same techniques though. The BJJ training methods are a bit more structured though, and that, along with good advertising, is probably why they can be viably commercial.

[Nightingale]

push-ups may not be a true motivator (negative reinforcement seldom is), but they accomplish a few things:

1. you get the problem child out of your class for five or ten minutes while they're doing push ups

2. they get time to calm down

3. you get time to calm down

4. they're actually getting some exercise as well.

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by GouRonin

A while ago I went with Roland to a seminar in martial arts. During the seminar the instructor pulled out a wooden shinai and gave him a clip on the back of the head to inspire him to get his technique right. He did.

But it makes me wonder, I've heard stories about instructors walking around with big sticks etc and when students were not getting technique right etc.

We seem to have gotten away from ideas like that? Why? Are they good or bad ideas?

Sammo Hung in a recent interview spoke about the Peking Opera training he and Jackie Chan went through as kids- nonstop beatings and punishment for every misstep- and no matter how right you got it, it was a mistake and another beating- not a happy memory it seems. in fact he described it as outright child abuse and displayed much anger about the experience.

peace

:asian:

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by jazkiljok

Sammo Hung in a recent interview spoke about the Peking Opera training he and Jackie Chan went through as kids- nonstop beatings and punishment for every misstep- and no matter how right you got it, it was a mistake and another beating- not a happy memory it seems. in fact he described it as outright child abuse and displayed much anger about the experience.

peace

:asian:

Read Jackie's book on it, he seems to have a different view of it. Beatings and miserable times? yes, but look at what it has done for them now.

7sm

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

Read Jackie's book on it, he seems to have a different view of it. Beatings and miserable times? yes, but look at what it has done for them now.

7sm

Will do-- but not to sure that success of a few talented individuals validates the methods of training.

I haven't had a chance yet to see (or even find) Stanley Kwan's "Painted Faces" (1988)- it's based on Hung's experiences and he plays a tough teacher in it. I don't think any judgments are made in the film- just a glimpse into the life of the kids who go through the training.

have you seen it?

peace

:asian:

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by jazkiljok

Will do-- but not to sure that success of a few talented individuals validates the methods of training.

I haven't had a chance yet to see (or even find) Stanley Kwan's "Painted Faces" (1988)- it's based on Hung's experiences and he plays a tough teacher in it. I don't think any judgments are made in the film- just a glimpse into the life of the kids who go through the training.

have you seen it?

peace

:asian:

No I haven't seen it, I'll have to look for it now though. I understand that some view that type of training as abuse, but I wish I had been in that type of training as a kid, would have kept me out of alot of trouble and increased my skill level tremendously. There is a fine line to walk, but what makes it abuse and what makes it motivation?

7sm