To kick to the head, or not to kick to the head?

[Last Fearner]

Since this topic was brought up in another thread,

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45402

I am starting this thread to address this issue.

Feel free to respectfully express your opinions on the subject.

Here is mine:

Kicking to the head is a viable option. It is no more risky than any strike with the hand when done properly by a skilled technician, at the appropriate time.


Why not practice running up to a guy and punching him in the toe? I can offer some reasons...it causes you to compromise your mechanics; it's strategically a bad idea as it leaves you vulnerable to being crashed into and overtaken, just for starts.


Since you brought it up, interesting proposal though. In fact, after reading this, I tried an experiment. I went out and ran up to 100 different strangers and punched them in the toe. Not one time was i crashed into or overtaken. Of course, for a few of them I threw a class of water in their face first; some I sprayed with silly string; others I used dirt to distract them. For about half of them, though, I first did a high roundhouse kick to the side of their head, followed by a jump-spin side kick to their nose before I dropped down for the toe punch. So, I guess the toe punch is an effective form of attack if you know when to use it, and how to set it up.

As for kicking to the head, it is one thing to say, "I don't do prefer to do it," but to categorically denounce the practice as dangerous or excessively risky shows a lack of training on the subject and a failure to thoroughly understand the method of kicking multiple targets.


Kicking to the head creates the same problems. Use upper-body weapons for upper body targets, and lower body weapons for lower body targets. You get to keep your health longer that way.

I have used kicks to the head in street self defense, and never had a problem with it. The illogical approach of "upper-body weapons for upper body targets, and lower body weapons for lower body targets" limits options, and has no sound validity in its argument. First of all, people tend to think of a fist as held by the face and a foot as being on the ground - quite a distance apart. However, if I extend my punch horizontally, and extend my side kick horizontally, both are attached to my torso. One is at the shoulder, and the other is at the hip; only a couple of feet apart. There is no great difficulty in adjusting the angle of trajectory to punch from my shoulder down to the abdomen, or from my hip up to the head.

If you are willing to punch someone in the face, then you are risking counter-attack when you come close enough that their hand technique can strike you. By kicking effectively, I can remain far enough away that your punch can not land, but I can knock you out. If you want to cling to the fantasy that you can somehow be superior in your skills, and that you can safely rush in past my kick, while avoiding being kicked in the face, slammed with a side kick in the solar plexus, or having a knee dislocated, then you still have my hands to worry about. You don't just get a free pass to rush in - - that's not safe, and you don't keep your health for long that way.

Being cautious, you must stay out of my striking range, which includes my kicking range, and that means you have to stay further back - - which is fine with me. Any attempt to rush in is more noticeable the further back you are. Any attempt to sneak your way in places you at striking range. A fast rush would be met with fast hand or foot strike and you never know which one, where its coming from, or where it is going to land.

Lastly, if you understand anything about unarmed combat, you know that you typically do not lead in with your most powerful technique. You jab, you stun, you daze them and set them up for the finishing blow. Once an opponent has been struck with the hands, and they are seeing stars but are not completely out, it only takes a split second to nail them with a powerful kick to the head which finishes the job without any resistance, or undue risk. No one of any skill ever said you are going to look eye-to-eye with an opponent and kick them in the head with no set-up, no distraction, or without taking advantage of proper timing.


Kicks are good - - use them wisely.
CM D.J. Eisenhart

[exile]

I'd much prefer to be able to keep a dangerous oppo at kicking range. The problem is—from my own experience and from what I've read by people whose profession puts them in harm's way quite frequently—most violent conflicts begin when your antagonist is much closer to you than than that.

Furthermore, while the head is a valuable target (damage to the attacker's head gives you the best possible shot at walking away unharmed from the conflict), it's also much smaller than other targets on the oppo's body, and if you miss, you are going to wind up a `tempo' behind, as the chessplayers say.

Putting these together, my inclination would be to train primarily for the statistically most likely attacks, based on the premise that the attack comes from close quarters, with the intention of imposing control on the attacker early and striking his head with whatever weapon the situation permits. If a kick is involved, I want it to be a fail-safe strike, where even if I miss, he's still under forced compliance.

What I want to avoid is being in a situation where I have to assume an extreme body position to reach his head—a dangerous situation should I miss. It's true, if we're at close quarters there's greater danger—but as documented in the work of Geoff Thompson, Bill Burgar, Peyton Quinn and others who've studied (in person as well as by document) typical combat situations involving an unsought attack by an untrained but dangerous aggressor, it's most likely that I'll find any assault launched against me coming from closer than comfortable kicking distance.

[Ceicei]

A kick to the head, sure, after I bring the attacker down first. It is a good finisher to my takedown....

Of course, I realize you're talking about a different kind of head kick to the up-right attacker. Not my preferred choice to take this action, but should be left as an option if necessary.

- Ceicei

[Brad Dunne]

done properly by a skilled technician,................That's the hidden caveat to this subject.

Can and do head kicks work?...........Of course, we've seen it in straight up competitions. Now in a real self defense mode, there are some variables that do come into play, ie; what are you wearing,- tight jeans will make your voice go up if you attempt a high kick, what is your location like - on grass/on sand/on wet pavement/etc. and the all important, are you really that skilled of a technician?

[Carol]

I'd much prefer to be able to keep a dangerous oppo at kicking range.

Kicking range for me with my petite legs could very well be punching range for an attacker if he's a normal sized guy. For me in particular, they aren't my first choice of move. But...alternative tools are good. :)

[zDom]

I agree with Last Fearner's statement,


Kicking to the head is a viable option. It is no more risky than any strike with the hand when done properly by a skilled technician, at the appropriate time.

I've invested a lot of time into becoming a very good kicker, so for me (and others who have invested enough time and effort into becoming very good kickers) I think all kicking, including head kicks under the right circumstances, is a very viable option.

Range, power, surprise — kicking has a lot of advantages.

I can see how others who have NOT invested this kind of time and effort would rather rely on other tools – and they SHOULD rely on what they are comfortable with.

[still learning]

Hello, Any time you can increase your choice of weapons to use and can use them....will always make you a better fighter.

Getting hit in the head with someone legs will cause more damage than a fist, because of the size and strenght of the legs muscles (must be done correctly and on tarket).

And with alot practice....the round house is a powerful kick,even the hook kick. Many people do not realize even a front kick to the chin( the one on the head)....can cause some damages.

You will always hear those who say it is a dangerous kick....Off course it is...so is keeping your hands down.

Not everyone is able to make this head kicks work for them...BUT those who practice and can hit with power! Watch out! .........Aloha

PS: To avoid head kicks....Ask the attacker not to throw those? .....wear a helmet? .....Duck? .....Big heads make better tarkets? .....keep your sun glasses on? .....fight people who are NOT flexable...lastly if the attacker is in a wheel chair..chances are? you may not see a head kick from them.
Having hair or being bald...will not effect getting hit in the head. Praying helps sometimes......

[bluemtn]

For me personally, I'd rather not do a head kick. At least not as an only kick- perhaps following a kick that was used as a fake. Timing, I find, is really key when throwing a kick to the head. It's too easy to be thrown off balance, either by opponent or other things around you.

[searcher]

For the most part I don't throw a bunch of head kicks, though I DO throw them. I have found that they can be extremely effective, but so can a good shin to the thigh. For me it is which target is available and how am I feeling mixed with which arena and on what terrain. I try to figure that in a quarter of a second while I chamber, then I let it rip.

[Adept]

Kicking to the head is a viable option. It is no more risky than any strike with the hand when done properly by a skilled technician, at the appropriate time.

I agree. However, I would argue that appropriate times to be kicking to someones head are far fewer than appropriate times to be striking someones head with another tool.

For example:

A head high kick takes longer to reach it's target than the equivalent hand technique. This gives your opponent more reaction time.

A head high kick places you in a vulnerable position, standing on one leg within 'shoot' range of your opponent.

A head high kick often requires some kind of twist of the grounded foot, which increases the risk of falling or slipping.

A head high kick has a slower recovery time, and until the kicking foot is planted on the ground your balance and mobility is limited.

A effective head high kick, for most people, requires warming up and loose pants.

A head high kick limits the ability to move and strike simultaneously, unlike handstrikes.

Having said all that, I won't say you should never kick someone in the head.

Simply that it is rarely the best option and should always, as exile stated, be a fail-safe strike where even if it goes pear shaped, you don't end up eating asphalt.

[K' Evans]

Can't add anything that constructive to this thread but I have seen the pro's and con's. My Sifu once said that he knocked someone out with his big toe (obviously had to be a head kick). On the other hand, when I was watching a fighting competition, I have seen contestants attempt head kicks but instead swung around and fell onto the floor. I think adept and Brad Dunne basically summed up the difficulties in executing a well-timed and precise head kick.

[bushidomartialarts]

another point about high kicks is the support leg. in real life we are very rarely standing on a surface as grip-friendly as our training space, or wearing shoes that work well for a kick.

i know two guys who've ended up in the hospital because they tried to kick high on linoleum or tile and had their support leg slip out from under them. that's all the opening their attacker needed.

skilled practitioner or not, everything i've heard, read or experienced says that a kick to the head is not your best move. even a very solid, tall head-kicker would be better off with a kick to the knee.

my two cents, not worth more than anybody else's (except canadians, whose two cents are really only worth about 1 2/3 cents)

[Brandon Fisher]

Ok here is my take on it can it work? Absolutely but lets look at the variables and I am sure some have been mentioned.

Here are the issues I see with it:
1. Timing. It has to be perfect
2. Flexibility. Well you may be flexible enough to do it in the dojo / dojang but in tight clothing its a hinderence. Also if you are stiff and not stretched out you can damage a muscle and then you are in trouble because it will hinder your ability in escape also. If women are wearing skirts it won't work. Tight jeans or shorts. Are you wearing shoes with a heal dress shoes, boots or women wearing high heels affect balance and speed.
3. are you on flat ground free of slippery objects ie: dirt, broken glass, sand, ice, snow or wet grass. If you are on anything like this it can pose another problem with balance. If you are on a hillside or uneven ground theres another hinderence.

So just with these I will take my chances on keeping the kicks low and extremely powerful. I can kick very fast waist to rib high with extreme power. Just has hard as I can kick to the leg so I am going to pick the easiest target to hit and I am going to hit it hard. I will leave me hands and elbows for the head unless I can get the head lower. Me at 5'7 can't kick someone in the head thats 6'4 and 300lbs thats trying to beat the snot out of me. I have to bring them down to my size.

So if you are extremely flexible all the time, wear lose clothing, are taller, are extremely fast and younger than maybe it will work. Is it the best option in real situation not in my opinion its not.

[IWishToLearn]

I disagree with kicking to the head unless I've first knocked my opponent into a state to which he cannot effectively defend himself. Street attacks are rarely initiated from effective head high kicking range. I've trained in TKD since 2003 - plenty of head high kicking experience. Unfortunately - most TKD players aren't trained in the psychology of street fighting. (Note I said MOST - no personal attack inferred or insinuated.) What works great against someone who knows what's going on (read: tournament/dojang) won't work at all against an attacker who comes out of nowhere. If someone is intent on coming in at you or rushing you, rarely are they dumb enough to do it from outside fist/elbow range. From that distance it's a hellovalot more difficult to defend against with a foot as a counterattack.

Back to the original question - I love head kicks when I've taken my opponent's knees out by cracking them against the pavement, or dropping them on their bum. At that point I have no risk of bone damage from kicking higher than my legs are supposed to go - and I get a hellovalot more power into my strike in a lot less time. Finishers are great at that point too. ;)

[searcher]

I want to add something to "punch them in the foot" statement. I have struck another individual in the foot with my hand, in a grappling situation. It is very effective, the arch of the foot is very vulnerable and if struck is quite painfull. So, where people have taken what Bruce Lee said as being the end all when it comes to head kicking, it should not be overlooked for effectiveness.

[zDom]

I agree that a head kick is rarely, if ever, a good option for your first strike.

Generally speaking, it is best used as a finishing technique.

[Drac]

A kick to the head, sure, after I bring the attacker down first. It is a good finisher to my takedown....

Of course, I realize you're talking about a different kind of head kick to the up-right attacker. Not my preferred choice to take this action, but should be left as an option if necessary.

- Ceicei

Ya beat me too it Ceicei..In 20 years of LE I have NEVER kicked above the waist, my favorite are front snaps to the shin..Looks better on the crusisercam that a "kick to the head"...

[Xue Sheng]

Why kick to the head when the knee is right there are just asking to be kicked?

[Steel Tiger]

From my perspective kicking above the waist creates some issues. I'm considerd to be quite good with my kicks, but there is the inherent problem of balance. Simply put, when you take a foot off the ground you are unbalancing yourself. Of course we all train in and know techniques to off-set this, but the problem remains. Add to this the fact that high kicks increase the unbalancing effect.

When I do kick, which is not frequently, I prefer to target the area around the waist. A good kick to this area will double up an opponent and then I could kick him in the head, I suppose.

[zDom]

Why kick to the head when the knee is right there are just asking to be kicked?

Umm... because heads ask me to kick them, too. I have nothing against kicking knees, but ya gotta be fair to the heads, too :)

YMMV, oh Chinese Stylist :)

[matt.m]

I am flexible and limber. I also have good quad and ham strength. I love head kicking. The thing is everyone always looks for the knee or body shot, plus I am short - all of a towering 5'6. So I have to be great at high kicking just to be able to kick someone who is 6'2 or better.

My leg reach is the same as zDom's arm reach. This means I hit his midsection with a side kick and he blasts me with a reverse punch to the face. HMMMM? This is and can be bad news indeed.

Of course front upraising and twist kicks are wonderful for the "Close up" fighting that everyone is putting into consideration.

[matt.m]

When I do kick, which is not frequently, I prefer to target the area around the waist. A good kick to this area will double up an opponent and then I could kick him in the head, I suppose.


This gives a perfect answer right here. When I do kick, which is not frequently......

It has always baffled me why "If your legs are stronger than your arms then you should and would do well to use them. No?"

[exile]

There's another point here that's worth bringing up, I think, bearing on the question of fighting range that LF included in his original post.

If you think about the geometry of a low-to-mid kick vs. a head kick by the same fighter, it's immediately obvious that your distance from your opponent is going to have to decrease as the height of your kick increases. If you stand at the same distance where your turning kick lets your instep or the ball of your foot make impact with your oppo's waist at full extension, you clearly won't make contact with if you instead aim the kick at his upper rib cage. So you have to move a bit closer to strike that target. But now, at that distance, assuming you're at full extension on the kick to side of his ribcage, you'll miss his chin cleanly if you increase the angle of your leg to kick to reach that height. So you'll have to move in further still to make contact to that target. And so on. There's no way around it: if the long side of a right triangle (your leg) is fixed in length, then the only way it can reach a given height as the angle of your leg to the floor increases is for your horizontal distance from the target to decrease. That means that a head shot with a roundhouse is going to put you in very close quarters anyway. This means that if you want to max out the distance between you and the oppo, you don't want to kick high; you want your kick to come in parallel to the floor—it's at that height that you get full contact with the attacker's body at the maximum distance from him.

So a head shot commits you to a CQ fighting strategy anyway. And you have to ask: given that you're at H2H range in any case, which gives you a better advantage in terms of balance, speed, and the chance to switch to alternative tactics if your first tech goes sideways: a high-kicking strategy, or a strategy involving aggressive hand techs with kicks reserved for the finish?

[Xue Sheng]

Umm... because heads ask me to kick them, too. I have nothing against kicking knees, but ya gotta be fair to the heads, too :)

YMMV, oh Chinese Stylist :)


hmmm good point.... hand not thought of that....

OK Head kicks it is. :)

Speaking as a Chinese Stylist there is one transition in Xingyi 5 elements where I am fairly certain at least on application of the kick is directly to the jaw with the heal. But it comes from a cross legged squat at close range and like all things Xingyi your entire body is behind it. Although I have not tried it done right it is going to hurt whatever head gets in the way. But I still like them knees

[zDom]

Yea, if you are going for range, hip height is the best height.

I've always thought a kick into the hip joint would be a great self-defense option.

[Adept]

Yea, if you are going for range, hip height is the best height.

I've always thought a kick into the hip joint would be a great self-defense option.

It's certainly worked wonders for me.

[bushidomartialarts]

Yea, if you are going for range, hip height is the best height.

I've always thought a kick into the hip joint would be a great self-defense option.

worked well for me when bouncing. it buckles the hip and stops forward momentum without risking serious injury. and when the guy's drunk to begin with they tend to fall down rather spectacularly.

[Drac]

Why kick to the head when the knee is right there are just asking to be kicked?

That's a good target too...I still perfer shins..So when the scumbag comes into court with his law suit for "Police Brutality" all he his sporting is a wicked bruise on his shin and not a shattered kneecap..

[Drac]

worked well for me when bouncing. it buckles the hip and stops forward momentum without risking serious injury. and when the guy's drunk to begin with they tend to fall down rather spectacularly.

Yep...I like insteps too...

[Xue Sheng]

That's a good target too...I still perfer shins..So when the scumbag comes into court with his law suit for "Police Brutality" all he his sporting is a wicked bruise on his shin and not a shattered kneecap..

A good stomp on the foot works too