Criticisms of Karate

[Field Cricket]

Hello everybody!

I've recently had my interest in martial arts revived, and have spent a lot of time reading up on various arts.

One derogatory comment about karate that appears quite frequently, usually in texts on Chinese martial arts, is that it is only good for teaching to children or similar.

In the past I practised Shotokan karate for several years, so I am aware of some of its shortcomings; however, I don't think these warrant the kind of remarks mentioned above.

What do other people think? Have I just looked at the wrong books? Is it just a few people's bias against non-Chinese (non-internal ?) martial arts? Or is there some kernel of truth hidden away there?


Field Cricket

[Cthulhu]

Basically, the people making these rather stupid remarks are ignorant of karate. I'm willing to bet money that the people making those kinds of comments have never studied a form of karate for any appreciable length of time. They're merely trying to criticize other systems because it's the only way they can make they're system look good.

Cthulhu

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Basically, the people making these rather stupid remarks are ignorant of karate.

Certainly they've never met Mr. Dillman.

Yes, karate has enough for a lifetime of study--has enough for several lifetimes of study--though I find the Okinawan styles somewhat richer in this regard than the Japanese styles.

[GouRonin]

Any time knuckles meet flesh with bad intentions...that's karate. Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Boxing, it's all about bad intentions on someone's part.

Those who spend too much time making fun of something else should be spending their time worrying about it.

Unless it's the dirtrollers, you can't trust any of them.
:fart:

[D.Cobb]

Unfortunately there is a modicum of truth to th theory of "KARATE" being for children. When Funakoshi introduced it to Japanese school children, he made a few changes to certain strikes, in an endeavour to make it less lethal. One of these changes was the position of the fist when a punch had been completed. Originally in the Okinawan systems, from whence most modern karate stems, the punch would finish in the 3/4 position, ie. with the first knuckle uppermost. Funakoshi changed this to the horizontal position for a number of reasons. One reason is that the 3/4 position is perfect for pressure point strikes. The horizontal position, doesn't fit well into the point cavaties. Another reason is that the 3/4 punch can apply more pressure, thereby doing more damage than the horizontal punch. Due to these facts some less subtle martial artists may call a style that finishes in the horizontal position "childrens karate".
Some good reference material can be found in books by Mr. Dillman, and Kyoshi Patrick McCarthy.
Hope this helps.
--Dave :asian:

[Martin h]

I have always seen the chinese criticism of karate as a cultural thing.
Japanese people traditionaly view china as a land of old knowledge but much decadence.
Chinese traditionaly view japan as a watered down version of china.

The japanese are vey minimalistic, and strive to make much from little. And karate compared to many styles of Kungfu/wushu is very minimalistic and conservative in its movements, whereas wushu i filled with large beautiful movements.

Ever seen a wushu form and then compared it with a karate form?

So the chinese sees karate as a shadow of kungfu, stripped of much in a effort to simplify it, and thus making it fit only for children.
The japanese naturaly regard it as taking a decadente chinese art and remove away all the unwanted decorations, striping it down to what is actualy useful.
Ad a bit of national pride and a hint of racism, and neither side will admit that the other side might have something useful.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Martin h

Ad a bit of national pride and a hint of racism, and neither side will admit that the other side might have something useful.

Then add the Korean arts and their very direct relationship to Japanese and, in many cases, Chinese arts into the mix!

[Field Cricket]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

... Another reason is that the 3/4 punch can apply more pressure, thereby doing more damage than the horizontal punch. Due to these facts some less subtle martial artists may call a style that finishes in the horizontal position "childrens karate".
Some good reference material can be found in books by Mr. Dillman, and Kyoshi Patrick McCarthy.
--Dave :asian:

Thankyou for that. I've recently come across these books and I was impressed by what they had to say. However, there is one question that springs to mind concerning the different fist shape where the index finger is straight.

I've been experimenting with this during the past week, and I can't really feel any difference or see an advantage to this straight finger form. In fact, having studied shotokan karate for five years, the unnaturalness of this grip is a distinct disadvantage.

So the question is, what is the advantage, if any?

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Field Cricket

However, there is one question that springs to mind concerning the different fist shape where the index finger is straight.

I've been experimenting with this during the past week, and I can't really feel any difference or see an advantage to this straight finger form. In fact, having studied shotokan karate for five years, the unnaturalness of this grip is a distinct disadvantage.

I started with Isshin-ryu and still make a fist with my thumb on the top if I'm not careful.

I find the straight index finger fist feels like it gives me a "flatter" striking surface that is better aligned along my entire arm, but it feels very uncomfortable to me.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Field Cricket

So the question is, what is the advantage, if any?


If the question is, "what is the advantage of the 3/4 fist punch?", the answer can be found in Grays Anatomy. The book tells of the membrane that connects the two bones in the fore arm. If your fist is flat or horizontal when you punch, then the membrane is in fact slack, and not engaged, which under extreme pressure, like you would find at the point of contact in a full power punch, will allow the fore arm bones to bow or flex. It is even possible that they might break.

If you punch using the 3/4 fist, then the positioning of the fore arm causes the membrane to become tight and it will, in fact, act as reinforcement and allow you to hit with greater force and far less likelyhood of injuring yourself.

I think this is what you were asking about.

--Dave



:asian:

[Battousai]

I'm a little confused with the terminology, by 3/4 punch, are you talking about a Tate (veritcal) seiken (fore fist strike)? Meaning the the fist is just like a normal punch, only that it's rotated so that the thumb is on top? (First finger on top like what was mentioned in an above post.) Or does the first finger actually stick out or something (like not bending at the first joint, coming up from the arm, and bending at the other two)? (impression I got from other posts).
Anyway, Tate strikes are cool because the elbow is straight downward, making a better line for the transfer of force, while with normal horizontal strikes the forearm has to twist to make the elbow face downward (which is cool too, but alittle harder).

[arnisador]

Most karate systems use a horizontal punch (palm down, thumb sideways). Isshin-ryu uses a vertical punch (palm sideways, thumb up). Ryukyu kempo uses a 3/4 punch, tilted roughly half-way between horizontal and vertical. My understanding from Mr. Dillman's seminars is that the principle reasons are more natural alignment of your arm and, perhaps more importantly, how the punch fits nicely into the solar plexus or on the ribs (back of the fist aligning along the bottom edge of the rib cage). He also explains that when hitting the ribs this isolates one rib as opposed to several, increasing the odds of a fracture or break.

[Field Cricket]

Originally posted by D.Cobb


If the question is, "what is the advantage of the 3/4 fist punch?", the answer can be found in Grays Anatomy. The book tells of the membrane that connects the two bones in the fore arm. If your fist is flat or horizontal when you punch, then the membrane is in fact slack, and not engaged, which under extreme pressure, like you would find at the point of contact in a full power punch, will allow the fore arm bones to bow or flex. It is even possible that they might break.

If you punch using the 3/4 fist, then the positioning of the fore arm causes the membrane to become tight and it will, in fact, act as reinforcement and allow you to hit with greater force and far less likelyhood of injuring yourself.


I appreciate the reason for not twisting the fist until it is horizontal. A quick bit of experimentation and comparison with what is done in Chinese martial arts was enough to convice me. However it is the clenching of the fist that I'm asking about.

In shotokan karate as taught today, and in Funakoshi's beginner's book (Nyumon if I remember correctly), you are taught to roll all four of your fingers into the palm and then cover the index finger and the longest finger with the thumb.

However, in his earlier works (Karate Jutsu and Kyohan (sp?)) the fist is formed by having all the fingers except the index finger curled in towards the palm as before. The index finger is only half curled (bent at the first two joints and not the one nearest the fingertip) and the thumb only covers the index finger.

As far as I can tell there is no change in shape to the striking area, and I find it considerably more difficult to form at speed than the more conventional one. Hence the question: is there actually any benefit in adopting this more awkward (as I see it) fist?

FC

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by D.Cobb

Unfortunately there is a modicum of truth to th theory of "KARATE" being for children. When Funakoshi introduced it to Japanese school children, he made a few changes to certain strikes, in an endeavour to make it less lethal. One of these changes was the position of the fist when a punch had been completed.

Firstly, Funakoshi didn't teach school children in Japan. He had a Karate club at Keio University but he never taught Karate in the Japanese Elementary school. In fact he was only a school teacher in Okinawa, he was originally a grounds keeper on his arrival to Japan.

as for the changes in strikes..........that was Itosu that changed some of the more lethal techniques. Rumor has it he invented the Pinan Katas for just such a purpose.




Originally posted by D.Cobb

Originally in the Okinawan systems, from whence most modern karate stems, the punch would finish in the 3/4 position, ie. with the first knuckle uppermost.

All Karate comes from Okinawa.......
Some punches finish in the 3/4 position, some in the vertical position, and some in the horizontal.




Originally posted by D.Cobb
Funakoshi changed this to the horizontal position for a number of reasons.

Who told you that?
All 3 kinds of punches I mentioned were around long before Funakoshi came on the seen.




Originally posted by D.Cobb
Some good reference material can be found in books by Mr. Dillman, and Kyoshi Patrick McCarthy.



I have read both their books.
McCarthy's has some good historical material, however Dillman's Books leave a lot to be desired.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan


All Karate comes from Okinawa.......
Some punches finish in the 3/4 position, some in the vertical position, and some in the horizontal.

In modern styles however it seems as though only one choice is represented per style: Isshin-ryu uses the vertical punch (almost) exclusively, while most other systems use the horizontal fist (almost) exclusively, and Ryukyu kempo uses the 3/4 fist almost always (or so it seems to me). Japanese systems use the horizontal fist; there may be other punches technically within the system but they are not emphasized.

[Field Cricket]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan


I have read both their books.
McCarthy's has some good historical material, however Dillman's Books leave a lot to be desired.

I agree that Dillman's books are clearly as content free as can be got away with so that you're forced to buy several books where one would do. However, are you also implying that what is stated in the books is inaccurate in some way?

I'm only asking from curiosity, since I'm nowhere near competent to comment on these particular matters.

FC

[Chiduce]

Several of the kata in the shorin-ryu system was designed for the younger set. Fukigata I&II for school children; and Pinnan I-IV for high school students: Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Chiduce

Pinnan I-IV for high school students: Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


Can you tell me where you got this idea from?

--------------------


Field Cricket,

I am not sure which person/book you are asking me to comment on.

[Field Cricket]

Field Cricket,

I am not sure which person/book you are asking me to comment on.

Sorry - I meant the Dillman books. Is your criticism regarding the books themselves or the technique contained in them?

FC

[RyuShiKan]

Dillman's book is a little too "color by numbers kyusho" for me.

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Yes; pages 105 and 136 of Chapter V of "The Essense Of Okinawan Karate-Do", By Shoshin Nagamine. Nagamine Sensei and Miyagi Sensei, both composed Fuki, I&II. Anko Itosu composed Pinan I-V in 1907. They (the pinan katas) were intended for high school students. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


Can you tell me where you got this idea from?

--------------------


Field Cricket,

I am not sure which person/book you are asking me to comment on.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Dillman's book is a little too "color by numbers kyusho" for me.

In fairness to him, I think that this was his intenet with these books--to reach a mass audience with the very basics.

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Field Cricket


However, in his earlier works (Karate Jutsu and Kyohan (sp?)) the fist is formed by having all the fingers except the index finger curled in towards the palm as before. The index finger is only half curled (bent at the first two joints and not the one nearest the fingertip) and the thumb only covers the index finger.

As far as I can tell there is no change in shape to the striking area, and I find it considerably more difficult to form at speed than the more conventional one. Hence the question: is there actually any benefit in adopting this more awkward (as I see it) fist?

FC

I was at a seminar by Ed Parker, Jr. when this topic was addressed by him. He said that Mr. Parker himself, although using a "Horizontal fist" would often either not curl his index finger or not curl any of his fingers toward his palm.

I think he said this was because of the beneficial effect of not redirecting harmful engergy back into his body via his palm by letting it "escape" through the tip of the index finger. At any rate it had something to do with not making a loop for energy to return to him upon impact.

I had never heard this before and I may have the reasoning behind it wrong. Mr. Parker Jr. also spoke well of Mr. Dillman so perhaps Mr. Dillman addresses this topic as well.

:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by cdhall


I was at a seminar by Ed Parker, Jr. when this topic was addressed by him. He said that Mr. Parker himself, although using a "Horizontal fist" would often either not curl his index finger or not curl any of his fingers toward his palm.


Not curling any fingers is sometimes called the "elephant fist" and to be honest I kind of like it--I feel it gives me comparable, albeit less, power than a closed fist, with more speed. Unfortunately it leaves the fingers vulnerable to injury.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by cdhall



.....I think he said this was because of the beneficial effect of not redirecting harmful engergy back into his body via his palm by letting it "escape" through the tip of the index finger. At any rate it had something to do with not making a loop for energy to return to him upon impact.

I had never heard this before and I may have the reasoning behind it wrong. Mr. Parker Jr. also spoke well of Mr. Dillman so perhaps Mr. Dillman addresses this topic as well.

:asian:


Horse Pucky. Harmful energy my butt.
I am not trying to insult any one here so please don't think I am but Westerners tend to really get caught up in the "magical mystical ki world".
If there is one kind of martial artist that really chaps my butt it's the "granola munching ki freaks".

The reason for that finger position is simple bio mechanics.......no "airy fairy" ki stuff just simple mechanics.

When I lived in China I never ran into an martial artists that were as goofy about ki as most western "ki experts" are.
I saw some pretty amazing demonstrations of ki too, but most of the "fighting techniques" were never explained like I have heard Dillman and others rattle on about.
All the "color by numbers kyusho" (stomach 9, gallbladder 13, etc) gimme a break. They have kyusho in China, and they have some people that are frightfully good at it too.
However, Dillman's knowledge of ki and kyusho you could fit under your finger nail. I have heard of too many folks that went to his seminars and said he couldn't produce "the goods". He talked a lot but couldn't deliver unless the guy was stone cold still waiting to be whacked. I suggest if you ever have the chance to go to China by all means go by the Beijing University of Chinese Medicine and sit in on a lecture/practicum (sometimes they are in foreign languages).............they will knock your socks off my friend. Then when you get back to the west and hear the "ki freaks" go on about this and that you will know what I mean.

[islandtime]

Originally posted by Cthulhu

Basically, the people making these rather stupid remarks are ignorant of karate. I'm willing to bet money that the people making those kinds of comments have never studied a form of karate for any appreciable length of time. They're merely trying to criticize other systems because it's the only way they can make they're system look good.

Cthulhu
.................................................. .............................
Those books were probably written by one of those "my stuff is the best stuff" people that we all love


Gene Gabel:asian:

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Horse Pucky. Harmful energy my butt.

You can stick whatever you want in your butt I suppose, but I have had this conversation with Parker as well. Perhaps harmful energy is a bad use of words then. I am not a big believer in "chi energy" and such and I think that if you look at the vast majority of my posts you'll see that.

What Ed is talking about is more mechanical in nature. Imagine the arm being like a whip. As the kinetic energy moves down the arm and transfers to smaller parts of the arm (whip) it becomes increased as it strikes. Wherever the kinetic energy from the "wave source" finishes is where the transfer of power begins. The smaller the point the more damage, albiet smaller in sphere, as well.

Kinetic energy, potential energy, energy waves. All of these are scientific in nature. They are proven mathmatically, and empirically and accepted. The problem arises when people start to interchange the word "energy" in both the mystical chi and the scientific form.

So While I agree pretty much with the horse pucky comment about internal energies (chi) etc and would put forth that what Ed was talking about is more scientific in nature than was described. Perhaps better wording in the future might help.

Now if you don't believe in kinetic energy and such, well, then there is not point in even discussing this because then you don't believe in martial arts then.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Chiduce
Yes; pages 105 and 136 of Chapter V of "The Essense Of Okinawan Karate-Do", By Shoshin Nagamine. Nagamine Sensei and Miyagi Sensei, both composed Fuki, I&II. Anko Itosu composed Pinan I-V in 1907. They (the pinan katas) were intended for high school students. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


I have that book and looked it up. On page 105 there are photos of Nagamine doing Fukyugata kata, and on page 136 there are again only photos of him doing Pinan Yondan, just photos nothing more. The page you were wanting was 116, the date listed is also wrong. The Pinan kata were composed prior to 1907. Itosu introduced karate to the Shuri Jinjo Elementary School in April 1901 as part of the physical training program. The Pinan kata were introduced to Primary School children as a "martial exercise" with only the most basic aspects taught because it was considered too dangerous to teach them actually fighting application. In 1905 he became the karate teacher at the Prefecture Dai Ichi College and Prefecture Teachers Training College.

[Chiduce]

You are right about the pages; they are 104 and 116. I misprinted this information. The text said 1907. I would like to get your source for the Pinan Kata info though? Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Chiduce

I would like to get your source for the Pinan Kata info though? Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!



Most of the MA books out there have that information.

[vin2k0]

Originally posted by Martin h


The japanese are vey minimalistic, and strive to make much from little. And karate compared to many styles of Kungfu/wushu is very minimalistic and conservative in its movements, whereas wushu i filled with large beautiful movements.

So the chinese sees karate as a shadow of kungfu, stripped of much in a effort to simplify it, and thus making it fit only for children.

Why do all the fancy stuff when you can perform a simpler technique that is just as effective? And if anything it will be applied quicker because it is simpler...

[Martin h]

Originally posted by vin2k0
Why do all the fancy stuff when you can perform a simpler technique that is just as effective? And if anything it will be applied quicker because it is simpler...

Which leads to the karate position that was "The japanese naturaly regard it as taking a decadente chinese art and remove away all the unwanted decorations, striping it down to what is actualy useful."

Both sides may have a point, but that is the positions they regard each other from.
I tend to agree with you, simpler is almost always better. But then I am a karate practicioner aswell.

[yilisifu]

It should be borne in mind that what is referred to as "wushu" nowadays is also known as "contemporary wushu" and is a combination of gymnastics and martial arts. Even the Chinese themselves will tell you that it is not (and never was) intended for use in fighting.

Real Chinese martial arts (often called "traditional wushu") are quite different. Some are very straightforward, using simple, non-flowery techniques.....

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by yilisifu
Real Chinese martial arts (often called "traditional wushu") are quite different. Some are very straightforward, using simple, non-flowery techniques.....


Good example...........Bagua.......an absolutely brutal martial!
No muss, no fuss just nice "suck floor" defensive applications.

[yilisifu]

I think most systems tend to emphasize one primary way of punching, even if they actually utilize several.....

I, too, have seen (and heard) derogatory remarks regarding karate made by practicioners of Chinese and other martial arts. A well-known kung-fu practicioner of the day once remarked something about that and I asked him, "Have you ever fought someone in that art?" He simply frowned and walked away.
Some time later, he was preparing to enter tournament competition and I warned him that he simply wasn't adquately prepared. He shrugged it off and he and his students went to the tournament, confident that their kung-fu skill would carry the day.
They were lucky to survive. The teacher was knocked down repeatedly in his match. Even so, I don't think he learned from the experience. That's unfortunate.

This is not to suggest that one art is superior to another. I practice kung-fu myself. But these derogatory statements are often made by people who have little or no experience with karate...the lesson is often painful.
It brings to mind a statement made by O-Sensei Uyeshiba; "The mountain does not laugh at the stream because it is lowly, nor does the wind berate the mountain because it cannot move."

[vin2k0]

Karate is only misunderstood and/or criticised by those who have never trained the art in depth.
:armed:

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
If the question is, "what is the advantage of the 3/4 fist punch?", the answer can be found in Grays Anatomy. The book tells of the membrane that connects the two bones in the fore arm. If your fist is flat or horizontal when you punch, then the membrane is in fact slack, and not engaged, which under extreme pressure, like you would find at the point of contact in a full power punch, will allow the fore arm bones to bow or flex. It is even possible that they might break.

If you punch using the 3/4 fist, then the positioning of the fore arm causes the membrane to become tight and it will, in fact, act as reinforcement and allow you to hit with greater force and far less likelyhood of injuring yourself.

I think this is what you were asking about.

--Dave
:asian:

Grays Anatomy makes no such conclusion.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
.....Horse Pucky. Harmful energy my butt.....

LMAO!! My feeling exactly.

[RyuShiKan]

If you look at the body mechanics of the vertical, ¾ turn, and horizontal punch you will see not only the bones but also the muscles line up differently.
This is actually the reason for the different “feeling” of each punch.

[Mike Clarke]

I have to say this.

If you look around [and you don't have to look too far], at what is being passed off for karate these days, it's no wonder it gets critisism by the bucket full.

Dosn't everyone know some one who 'is' a Black Belt ????

What was once a rare treasure, is now a cheap commodity you can 'buy' almost anywhere from almost anyone.

Mike.

[angrywhitepajamas]

Ah but the rest of us knowand can remain confident in our training. Knowing that most people will consider us as cheap and mass produced only gives us the element of surprise. What a better cover is there from those who would harm us? That s no consolation to those who are being cheated on their training, but there is only so much any of us could do.

[angrywhitepajamas]

and It does make me frustrated that we all have that cover available.

[lucifersdad]

i know this topic has been covered but im new.

you said that in some styles there is a vertical fist, in others horizontal etc. etc.....
what about the styles that incorperate all of these? wado ryu uses all of these strikes in various kata, and as for the theory of increased effectiveness, doesnt that lie with the overall technique rather than the type of fist used? after practising karate for a while and going through the repatative routines cant we all hit these wonderful little kyusho points with most strikes 9 times out of ten, or there abouts?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by lucifersdad
after practising karate for a while and going through the repatative routines cant we all hit these wonderful little kyusho points with most strikes 9 times out of ten, or there abouts?


Not really.
I have seen folks on mpegs, and at live demos claim they are hitting "kyusho" points and even go so far as to draw little dots to mark them but in reality they are not hitting kyusho points.
There are also those on this board and others that claim to know what Kyusho is and are absolutely clueless.
Perhaps they are only repeating what they were told so it is a case of the blind leading the blind over several years.
I have also met several famous Japanese Karate from the JKA, Wado, Shotokan, and the JKF that were clueless to what Kyusho is.

[lucifersdad]

i agree many karate-ka have'nt got a clue what or where kyusho's are or how to strike them effectivly but my school, as with most i know, teach kyusho attacks as part of the grading syllabus and as a "fall guy" in most dan gradings, i know that most students cant hit them, but if we are to stop this blind leading the blind shouldnt we test things like this and learn from our mistakes rather than saying " i can't do it, so i wont teach it!"

i tried the three fist positions out last night, myself and one of my students spent about an hour punching and kicking each other, and although they all hurt (alot!), i think the fist positioning does have varying effectivness depending on which kyusho you hit, from what angle, and with what strike, but there deffinatley is some differance!
thank you for showing me these options for attack im starting to look at it alot more and from many differant angles (:) sorry)

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by lucifersdad
i agree many karate-ka have'nt got a clue what or where kyusho's are or how to strike them effectivly but my school, as with most i know, teach kyusho attacks as part of the grading syllabus

From what it sounds like the “kyusho” you are talking about are actually not kyusho but rather atemi points.(big difference that I will not explain)



Originally posted by lucifersdad
but if we are to stop this blind leading the blind shouldnt we test things like this and learn from our mistakes rather than saying " i can't do it, so i wont teach it!"

I never teach things I do not understand or can not do. What you are suggesting is actually perpetuating the blind leading the blind.
Research and practice it as much as you can but don’t teach it until you have a good grasp of it.


Originally posted by lucifersdad
i tried the three fist positions out last night, myself and one of my students spent about an hour punching and kicking each other, and although they all hurt (alot!), i think the fist positioning does have varying effectivness depending on which kyusho you hit, from what angle, and with what strike, but there deffinatley is some differance!
thank you for showing me these options for attack im starting to look at it alot more and from many differant angles (:) sorry)

Body position and body mechanics make the technique work.
This is my main gripe about some of the so called “Kyusho People”.
They stand stiff as a lamp post therefore the technique is not very effective….if at all.
Boxers move in and out of position……..and for a good reason.

[platinum_angel]

*yawns*

hmm let me start out by saying i have taken a year and a half of goju-ryu karate. well during my training i would always ask my self are these techniques really useful. for instance striking with the back of your wrist. in a fight would you really risk breaking your wrist when you could just use your palm. or horse stance if igot into a fight wouldn't he just be able to push me over or just tackle me. but i continued with my training. my instructors were alright i wasn't in a mcdojo even though they never demontrated their fighting ability. but my instructors had the intentions of meking it a mcdojo. so they moved from the school they were training at into to a city. i got a letter in the mail telling me if i wanted to continue my training i would have to pay like a 1000 bucks a year. previously i was bragging about how good of a fighter i was at school. so it ended up me getting into fights with wrestlers and they kicked my ass. from then on i knew that there was something wrong karate really didn't teach me how to fight. but i kept my head up high and started reading books on jeet kune do and researching other arts. still am. but what i relized was that karate isn't that effective.

karate gives their students a false sense of security. there fighting techniques are not practical in a real fighting situation. why do you think they use point systems during sparring. not only that but their training methods such kata are not good means of training. some people say ohhh well its just like shadow boxing - their not the same they are completly different.

now i'm not trying to troll i am just trying to wake you people up.
:o

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by platinum_angel
*yawns*

hmm let me start out by saying i have taken a year and a half of goju-ryu karate.

WOW! A whole year and a half…….you must be an “expert” then……. :rolleyes:



Originally posted by platinum_angel
now i'm not trying to troll ..........

Yes you are. :rolleyes:

[chufeng]

Platinum Angel,

Too bad you had such poor instruction.
Clearly your teachers knew nothing about how to apply goose head strike, nor the proper use of horse stance...or, *yawn* you were too bored to pay attention.

It's about distance and position...angle of attack and knowing a little about where to strike.

The opinion of a 1.5 year veteran of a poor course of instruction is hardly something I'd use to back up any claim that karate is not useful...

Real karate is devastating stuff...

:asian:
chufeng

[Robbo]

but their training methods such kata are not good means of training

You are completely ignorant of what forms teach and what their purpose is. To say something like this is so brutally off base that it's hard to know where to start to 'educate' you on what the hell you are talking about.

Rob

Not trying to piss you off just trying to wake YOU up :D

[Robbo]

i tried the three fist positions out last night, myself and one of my students spent about an hour punching and kicking each other, and although they all hurt (alot!), i think the fist positioning does have varying effectivness depending on which kyusho you hit, from what angle, and with what strike, but there deffinatley is some differance!

Make sure that you tie in the amount of rotation of the fist to the distance you are away from your target.

0 - 1/3 - supinated wrist (uppercut)
1/3 - 3/4 - vertical fist
3/4 - 1 - horizontal fist
>1 - pronated fist (turned over)

Rob

[2fisted]

One thing also to think of, is that criticizing 'Karate' as a whole is also ignorant. There are so many different styles, schools, lineages, variances, etc., that making a blanket statement is basically impossible.

The same can be said of Kung Fu. The term is so broad that it is impossible to make all-encompassing remarks.

Just my $.02 ;)

[platinum_angel]

*opens eyes*

WOW! A whole year and a half…….you must be an “expert” then…….

a year and a half is enough time to see what karate is about:shrug:


Yes you are

great arguement:rolleyes:


Too bad you had such poor instruction. Clearly your teachers knew nothing about how to apply goose head strike, nor the proper use of horse stance...or, *yawn* you were too bored to pay attention.

my instructors gave me great instruction and they knew their techniques very well. as for me i was one of their most determined students i walked there 2 miles every other day. then still worked out my hardest.


It's about distance and position...angle of attack and knowing a little about where to strike

as for kata form, in a proverbial situation form dissappears and survival reappears.


You are completely ignorant of what forms teach and what their purpose is. To say something like this is so brutally off base that it's hard to know where to start to 'educate' you on what the hell you are talking about.

really.......... i am quite confident iin my knowledge. so please do educate me.:shrug:


One thing also to think of, is that criticizing 'Karate' as a whole is also ignorant. There are so many different styles, schools, lineages, variances, etc., that making a blanket statement is basically impossible

if i remember correctly you guys were talking about how all karate stems from okinawan. so therefore making a blanket statment is possible.

[Dan Anderson]

My two cents worth after being in the art for 36+ years. A year and a half's experience is like judging the restaurant by looking at the menu and smelling from outside.

I like the 3/4 fist over the flat fist and the "standing fist." I use the feedback from my body in response to striking something with resistance. Does my wrist buckle or not? Which feels the strongest? That's what I go by.

According to the pressure point guys and historical documents cited previously, the Pinan kata were for youngsters.

As to why karate gets a bad rep, it's according to who is doing the dissing. Taekwondo, gung fu and everything else under the sun will get a bad rap from someone. The keys are are you getting what you need and want from what you train and will it protect you in a fight? Over and out.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by platinum_angel
*opens eyes*


a year and a half is enough time to see what karate is about:shrug:



great arguement:rolleyes:



my instructors gave me great instruction and they knew their techniques very well. as for me i was one of their most determined students i walked there 2 miles every other day. then still worked out my hardest.



as for kata form, in a proverbial situation form dissappears and survival reappears.



really.......... i am quite confident iin my knowledge. so please do educate me.:shrug:



if i remember correctly you guys were talking about how all karate stems from okinawan. so therefore making a blanket statment is possible.


If I were you, I would have quit while I was ahead, you know, somewhere about,



*yawns*

Your arguements are nonsensical at best, and at the very least pathetic.
Why don't you go somewhere that accepts wannabe's into their ranks. If you stay here too long people WILL start to treat you with the respect you deserve.

--Dave
:shrug:

[chufeng]

Dave,

The youngun' has never experienced the "Capitol Hill ***** Slap," so it isn't fair to expect him to understand...

chufeng

[yilisifu]

A year and a half is about enough time to learn how to properly tie your belt.

[chufeng]

Platinum Angel,


as for kata form, in a proverbial situation form dissappears and survival reappears.

What the hell does that mean???

If survival reappears, you do what you have to to survive...IF (big IF) you've been trained correctly you stand a better (51/49) chance at surviving...the more training you have the better your chances at survival...

If you found your karate teacher lacking (No, he gave the best instruction??? Who are you to judge what's good and bad? with 1.5 years training?) then you did the right thing to leave...but I guarantee that if you had found a REAL school of karate, WE would not be having this internet discussion.

And, unless you change the way you present yourslf here, I probably WON'T be responding to your posts in the future.

I won't waste my time on someone who thinks he has the answers before he knows what the hell the question is.

chufeng

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by chufeng
Dave,

The youngun' has never experienced the "Capitol Hill ***** Slap," so it isn't fair to expect him to understand...

chufeng


What exactly is the "Capitol Hill ***** Slap," ?
Aint geography a *****!?
--Dave

:D

[chufeng]

It is an internal strike that uses a very loose and relaxed hand and wrist...when applied, it appears to be the slap of someone who is, shall we say, effeminate...BUT it hits with tremendous force...
We nick-named it the Capitol Hill ***** Slap because there is a very large percentage of overtly gay folk in the Capitol Hill area of Seattle...

chufeng;)

[Robbo]

really.......... i am quite confident iin my knowledge. so please do educate me.

Knowledge of what exactly?

Forms exist for many reasons.

1) Library of techniques of a system.
2) Not everybody is going to want to 'bang' when they are 50 years old or sick or injured, therefore it is a great way for them to work the techniques without contact.
3) Presence and showmanship.
4)Confidence.
5) They teach you how to move...moving by torquing, marriage of gravity, stepping, lunging, twisting, turning, bobbing, weaving, parrying, blocking, striking, thrusting, offense, defense, timing, ryhthm, power, speed, whipping, slashing, poking, kicking, stomping, throwing, locks, and on, and on.

Now please for the board, PLEASE tell me that after proper instruction in how to do a form that the form would NOT work what I have mentioned above.

PLEASE tell the board that I am full of #@%$.

Rob


P.S. Go tell a Kyoshinkai person that forms suck and they are bascially deluding themselves.....then when you pick your ass up, you can start to wake up. Not trying to start a fight...that's all you are doing with the stuff you are posting.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by chufeng
It is an internal strike that uses a very loose and relaxed hand and wrist...when applied, it appears to be the slap of someone who is, shall we say, effeminate...BUT it hits with tremendous force...
We nick-named it the Capitol Hill ***** Slap because there is a very large percentage of overtly gay folk in the Capitol Hill area of Seattle...

chufeng;)

OK, gotcha. Here in Melbourne, we call that the St. Kilda Karate Chop.

Same thing, same reason.:D

--Dave:asian:

[chufeng]

:p

chufeng

[platinum_angel]

*closes eyes and smiles*


The youngun' has never experienced the "Capitol Hill ***** Slap," so it isn't fair to expect him to understand...
:iws:


If survival reappears, you do what you have to to survive...IF (big IF)you've been trained correctly you stand a better (51/49) chance at surviving...the more training you have the better your chances at survival... you've been trained correctly

i agree


If you found your karate teacher lacking (No, he gave the best instruction??? Who are you to judge what's good and bad? with 1.5 years training?) then you did the right thing to leave...but I guarantee that if you had found a REAL school of karate, WE would not be having this internet discussion.


a year and a half is enough time to see what karate is about. my instructors gave me great instruction and they knew their techniques very well. as for me i was one of their most determined students i walked there 2 miles every other day. then still worked out my hardest.


1) Library of techniques of a system.

many of the techniques karate practitioners practice are not pracitical and not only that but when trained in a predetermined way(such as kata) they are not even close to effective in a real life situation.


2) Not everybody is going to want to 'bang' when they are 50 years old or sick or injured, therefore it is a great way for them to work the techniques without contact.

if you are 50 years old and just learning techniques and not learning how to apply them in contact sparring then what do you you truly learn.........techniques.........which you could learn from a book.


3) Presence and showmanship.

well in that case why not just practice dancing it would impress the judges more and be a better means of training :rofl:

what a pathetic reason to practice kata.:shrug:


4)Confidence.

and thats just what you people need to..........some more confidence.:shrug:


They teach you how to move

yeah.......like a preprogramed robot


PLEASE tell the board that I am full of #@%$.

you see.........the sad thing is that your not :(


And, unless you change the way you present yourslf here, I probably WON'T be responding to your posts in the future.

owww that hurts lol

[Robbo]

what a pathetic reason to practice kata.

I'm sure all the Martial Art masters are bowing to your superior wisdom as we speak.

See-Ya,
Rob

[chufeng]

many of the techniques karate practitioners practice are not pracitical and not only that but when trained in a predetermined way(such as kata) they are not even close to effective in a real life situation.

Wrong...
Technique from kata is VERY effective...

The problem is that many people who hang a shingle out to teach, aren't ready to teach because they don't understand
what they are doing...you can't blame that on Karate, but on the individuals who teach it wrong.

I can tell you I've met more poorly trained karate and "kung-fu" teachers than well qualified ones...odds are, if you only went to one school, you got a lemon.

Don't discard karate out of hand because of one bad experience.

:asian:
chufeng

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by platinum_angel
*closes eyes and smiles*


:iws:

you've been trained correctly

i agree







many of the techniques karate practitioners practice are not pracitical and not only that but when trained in a predetermined way(such as kata) they are not even close to effective in a real life situation.



if you are 50 years old and just learning techniques and not learning how to apply them in contact sparring then what do you you truly learn.........techniques.........which you could learn from a book.



well in that case why not just practice dancing it would impress the judges more and be a better means of training :rofl:

what a pathetic reason to practice kata.:shrug:



and thats just what you people need to..........some more confidence.:shrug:



yeah.......like a preprogramed robot



you see.........the sad thing is that your not :(



owww that hurts lol



Ya know….this guy’s comments have been gone over soooooooooo many times on MT and other boards it’s not even worth getting into here yet again for the sake of his “education”.

If he thinks Kata are junk and karate techniques are useless fine by me.

Odd how some folks claim karate is not effective because they lose to someone else………….what happens when 2 karateka from the same dojo fight and one loses?

It’s all about “resolve” and whether you have enough to see things through to the end.
Quitters will always quite/lose no matter what art they study and winners will always win no matter what art they study.

[yilisifu]

I agree. As one teacher put it, "One must be kind to blind men."

And an old friend of mine said, "There are those who don't have a clue...then there are those who don't even suspect."

This guy falls into the latter category.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by chufeng
It is an internal strike that uses a very loose and relaxed hand and wrist...when applied, it appears to be the slap of someone who is, shall we say, effeminate...BUT it hits with tremendous force...
We nick-named it the Capitol Hill ***** Slap because there is a very large percentage of overtly gay folk in the Capitol Hill area of Seattle...

chufeng;)

I call mine an Iron Palm, with my fingers pulled back and tight, used to cause a ringing effect in the head.

Done wrong, it would be a ***** slap:D

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by platinum_angel
*yawns*

hmm let me start out by saying i have taken a year and a half of goju-ryu karate. well during my training i would always ask my self are these techniques really useful. for instance striking with the back of your wrist. in a fight would you really risk breaking your wrist when you could just use your palm. or horse stance if igot into a fight wouldn't he just be able to push me over or just tackle me. but i continued with my training. my instructors were alright i wasn't in a mcdojo even though they never demontrated their fighting ability. but my instructors had the intentions of meking it a mcdojo. so they moved from the school they were training at into to a city. i got a letter in the mail telling me if i wanted to continue my training i would have to pay like a 1000 bucks a year. previously i was bragging about how good of a fighter i was at school. so it ended up me getting into fights with wrestlers and they kicked my ass. from then on i knew that there was something wrong karate really didn't teach me how to fight. but i kept my head up high and started reading books on jeet kune do and researching other arts. still am. but what i relized was that karate isn't that effective.

karate gives their students a false sense of security. there fighting techniques are not practical in a real fighting situation. why do you think they use point systems during sparring. not only that but their training methods such kata are not good means of training. some people say ohhh well its just like shadow boxing - their not the same they are completly different.

now i'm not trying to troll i am just trying to wake you people up.
:o

platinum_angel,
You're an inexperienced youngster compared to these vets. in here and this is not defend.net! :D

Take off your blinders and empty you're cup and you might learn something! :asian:

[platinum_angel]

Originally posted by akja
platinum_angel,
You're an inexperienced youngster compared to these vets. in here and this is not defend.net! :D

Take off your blinders and empty you're cup and you might learn something! :asian:

lol haha

i like that out of you:rofl: :rofl:
:rofl:

[Jill666]

I just typed a long-ass response, and a power surge shut me down before I could send it. :cuss:

So here's a short version- the one thing I think that has cheapened many martial arts- karate being one of the most visible examples in general, is the plethora of half-trained artists opening schools.

Hey I'm a black belt- I could open a school, and two of my classmates have students of their own. I can give you some trouble in the ring, does that mean I can teach you how to use your body well in a fight? I can perform Bassai Dai, and I can show you the moves- does that mean I can pull it apart and give you understanding of all the lessons in this kata? Nope.

I have only been in the MA community for six years (give or take). I have mastered a lot of basic material, and now have to develop it. I can fight clean in the dojo, and dirty on the street. I can encourage and coach others in my school. I have a lifetime- long or short- and will spend it becoming a good martial artist.

There is nothing wrong with Karate as a fully developed martial art, taught to a serious student by someone who has developed their own understanding of balance, power, chi, timing, etc. So many go into an art thinking it will quickly teach them to be deadly in the street, smart in business, irresistible in bed, mysterious and wise, all in six months. Many teachers will pander to that mentaility- it pays the bills. Maybe some teachers even believe it themselves. Then when it fails to happen, these boneheads blame the art. :shrug:

Kata can teach a lot. Regimented self-defense techniques can teach a lot. Sparring can teach a lot. Drills of basic moves can teach a lot. But without a quality martial artist teaching these lessons, these will be empty exercises, only partly understood and probably ineffective when needed.

That (IMHFO) is what is wrong with karate.


:soapbox:

[platinum_angel]

I have only been in the MA community for six years (give or take). I have mastered a lot of basic material, and now have to develop it. I can fight clean in the dojo, and dirty on the street. I can encourage and coach others in my school. I have a lifetime- long or short- and will spend it becoming a good martial artist.
.

does that mean you've only been in karate for 6 years and you already have a black belt. it takes 10-11 years in my art. so i've had 1/4 of your experience and i'm an inexperienced youngster compared to you. :rofl: :boing1: :lol:


There is nothing wrong with Karate as a fully developed martial art, taught to a serious student by someone who has developed their own understanding of balance, power, chi, timing, etc. So many go into an art thinking it will quickly teach them to be deadly in the street, smart in business, irresistible in bed, mysterious and wise, all in six months. Many teachers will pander to that mentaility- it pays the bills. Maybe some teachers even believe it themselves. Then when it fails to happen, these boneheads blame the art.

i don't blame the art because of all of the mcdojo's. i just think that karate is ineffective. i agree after so many years you will become a good fighter from learning karate but that does not even compare to what you could become if you studied some other arts and mixed them up. for instance i am taking wrestling right now and i know how to box and this summer i'm taking MT.


Kata can teach a lot. Regimented self-defense techniques can teach a lot. Sparring can teach a lot. Drills of basic moves can teach a lot. But without a quality martial artist teaching these lessons, these will be empty exercises, only partly understood and probably ineffective when needed.

i agree with all that except the kata part. i do not what so ever believe kata is a good means of training.

i just hate it when people that are in karate think that it is just devestating and that it will bestow great fighting powers on you.

[chufeng]

PA,


i just think that karate is ineffective

OK, you win...

Nobody here has anything of value for you...move along.
I want to talk Karate; I want to talk Chuan Fa...

You are throwing stones in the pond and I think many of us want to sleep...go wake someone else up.

My last word on this...

:asian:
chufeng

[Jill666]

I agree cross-training, once a good base is laid in one martial art, can help further develop you own effectiveness as a fighter, and deepen your understanding of what you are doing. Which is why I also study other arts. I find learning from a different perspective makes me look at what I am doing in Kenpo. (Plus you learn all this other cool $h!t)

As for being an inexperienced youngster you said it not me. :rofl:

We'll just have to agree to disagree with regards to kata. I don't expect to convince you, and don't intend to waste my time. Kenpo, Kyusho, and Taijutsu are going to be as effective as I make them. None of them will "bestow' anything on me. (wouldn't that be nice).

What art do you study Angel?

[Matt Stone]

Platinum Angel -

It seems fairly apparent that you are doing nothing more than stirring the pot on this issue...

You are firmly convinced that Karate will teach you nothing of worth, but then cite the amount of time it takes to earn a black belt in your art as some form of benchmark of its quality instruction.

You say that your teachers have failed to teach you anything that will prepare you for fighting, then defend your style and the amount of time (quite small, really, and by your own comments only about 10% of the way toward black belt, at which time you would only truly be able to say you had been exposed to all the basics and were ready for real study) you have invested in it.

So, as my dad used to say, ***** or get off the pot! Which is it? Either your karate training was a worthless dud (in which case you should quit or stand as a publicly announced hypocrite), or it is worthwhile and your comments are simply inflammatory rhetoric meant to foment discord.

You haven't studied long enough or deeply enough, and perhaps with the incorrect teachers, to allow you to understand much of anything. Trying to convince you is impossible. If you want to learn what traditional training really conveys, next time you are in the Tacoma area, look me up. The offer has been put out there to anyone that thinks that a) TMA are worthless, b) TMA can't teach you to fight in a short period of time, and c) forms training is just so much garbage. I guarantee I can show you they are... Whether that changes your obviously well researched, deeply studied, and strongly felt beliefs, only time could tell. Not a challenge, just an offer to learn. Others have been offered the same, and to this day have failed to take me up on it. Wonder why? :confused:

You have yet to show any proof that any of the above things are not useful. All you have done is air your opinion, and opinions remain much akin to anal sphincters...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by platinum_angel
does that mean you've only been in karate for 6 years and you already have a black belt. it takes 10-11 years in my art. so i've had 1/4 of your experience and i'm an inexperienced youngster compared to you. :rofl: :boing1: :lol:

You have 1.5 years of training. That's not even enough time to learn how to stand properly! I would bet money that, with that little time spent in training, there are thousands of flaws in the techniques you think are most worthless that make them so. More time spent practicing and less time spent karate-bashing would help iron out some of those issues...


i just think that karate is ineffective.

And the vast experience you base this observation on is what exactly? How many schools have you attended and trained at? How many styles of karate (or other martial arts) have you been exposed to deeply enough to really "understand" what was going on?


i agree after so many years you will become a good fighter from learning karate but that does not even compare to what you could become if you studied some other arts and mixed them up.

So first you say that karate is ineffective, then you say it is effective. Which is it? :confused: I'm starting to get dizzy...

As for mixing them up... So, you advocate learning a few arts superficially, then attempting to mix what you don't know all that well together? That's like saying that since you have taken a first aid class, you are now qualified to perform surgery... Not likely, not likely at all...


for instance i am taking wrestling right now and i know how to box and this summer i'm taking MT.

You know how to box? Really? How many bouts do you have under your belt? What's your record?

This summer you're taking Muay Thai? Really? Well, this summer I think I'll take a college class. The difference is that, when the my class is over, I will have all the material and can put it into practice. Muay Thai, or any other martial art, is not a "class" you take to have all the knowledge bequeathed upon you.


i agree with all that except the kata part. i do not what so ever believe kata is a good means of training.

You say this most likely because a) you don't have enough time in training to realize what all is contained in a form, b) your teachers don't know the forms well enough to convey the information to you, c) the teachers don't know the information in the first place, d) you are an impatient youngster who lacks the discipline and wisdom necessary to simply do what you are told in order to reap the benefits later fo training now, or e) a host of other possibilities.

Come to Tacoma, and we will demonstrate for you the usefulness of forms training.


i just hate it when people that are in karate think that it is just devestating and that it will bestow great fighting powers on you.

And I just hate it when people that have only limited knowledge and information make broad sweeping judgements about subjects they know little about.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Jill666]

I was trying to be nice to the lad :rofl:

Ah, the sweet smell of brutal honesty. :D

[Matt Stone]

Yeah, well, I try... :D

Seriously, though -

There are superubergajillions of crap schools teaching crap arts to ignorant and unsuspecting people. The teachers thrive on the ignorance of the public to support their claims to ubersenseihood. Because the unsuspecting public doesn't know any better, some idiot shodan or nidan can start a school catering to his or her own ego gratification. He or she "self-promotes," is "recognized" by some outside organization, and then passes himself or herself off as UberSensei while raking in the tuition of the hapless passers-by who fall for his line of hooey...

There are alos superubergajillions of crap schools catering to the MMA myth that TMA are all crap (as evidenced by the schools falling under the above example), and that they have the secret to creating MMAist SuperUberUFCGodlikeChampionFighters within the next week or two, catering to the aggresion, arrogance, innate rebellious nature, and suspicion of the folks that were pissed off by the schools from the above example that they were bilked by.

I suspect our dear Platinum Angel falls in between those descriptions somewhere...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Matt Stone]

This thread is amusingly silent now... :shrug:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Jill666]

;)

[KennethKu]

The message is not totally offbase. Unfortunately, the messenger, PA in this case, is the wrong messenger.

[platinum_angel]

OK, you win...

don't just give up i want to have a discussion........thats the purpose of saying all of this. if i was trying to piss you guys off i would be cursing like mad and making even general statements then what i am already making.


I agree cross-training, once a good base is laid in one martial art, can help further develop you own effectiveness as a fighter, and deepen your understanding of what you are doing. Which is why I also study other arts. I find learning from a different perspective makes me look at what I am doing in Kenpo. (Plus you learn all this other cool $h!t)

see i agree with that. if you take karate and cross-train it with hapkido or something then you will become a better fighter.


What art do you study Angel?

currently i am studing freestyle wrestling and normal wrestling in summer program.:)

*smiles*


You are firmly convinced that Karate will teach you nothing of worth, but then cite the amount of time it takes to earn a black belt in your art as some form of benchmark of its quality instruction.

i did have quality instruction OF KARATE.



You say that your teachers have failed to teach you anything that will prepare you for fighting, then defend your style and the amount of time (quite small, really, and by your own comments only about 10% of the way toward black belt, at which time you would only truly be able to say you had been exposed to all the basics and were ready for real study) you have invested in it.

when did i defend my style. lol. i have been saying its ineffective:rofl:




You haven't studied long enough or deeply enough, and perhaps with the incorrect teachers, to allow you to understand much of anything. Trying to convince you is impossible. If you want to learn what traditional training really conveys, next time you are in the Tacoma area, look me up. The offer has been put out there to anyone that thinks that a) TMA are worthless, b) TMA can't teach you to fight in a short period of time, and c) forms training is just so much garbage. I guarantee I can show you they are... Whether that changes your obviously well researched, deeply studied, and strongly felt beliefs, only time could tell. Not a challenge, just an offer to learn. Others have been offered the same, and to this day have failed to take me up on it. Wonder why?

mabye its because you intiminated them with your vast superiority:rofl: :rofl:

i don't even know where tacoma is. i think arizona


You have yet to show any proof that any of the above things are not useful. All you have done is air your opinion, and opinions remain much akin to anal sphincters...

go to the ufc's website and look for someone takes karate and participates in it too. i have only seen one guy and he was cross trained. majority BJJ and kickboxing.


You have 1.5 years of training. That's not even enough time to learn how to stand properly! I would bet money that, with that little time spent in training, there are thousands of flaws in the techniques you think are most worthless that make them so. More time spent practicing and less time spent karate-bashing would help iron out some of those issues...

within that time i learned how to tie my belt, learn 4 katas, stand properly in all forms, and a lot of useless techniques.


And the vast experience you base this observation on is what exactly? How many schools have you attended and trained at? How many styles of karate (or other martial arts) have you been exposed to deeply enough to really "understand" what was going on?

i compare karate practitioners to a street fighter and i compare that art to arts that i have been in.


So first you say that karate is ineffective, then you say it is effective. Which is it? I'm starting to get dizzy...

i have never said it was effective. i was saying there that of course after 15 years in karate you might be a good fighter. but then again after 15 years of weightlifting someone can become a good fighter to.


You know how to box? Really? How many bouts do you have under your belt? What's your record?

i have never been in a bout but does that mean i don't know how to box. i spent a year boxing with a friend but then i had to move to another school. is it just me or are you starting to make personal attacks on me.:rofl:


Ah, the sweet smell of brutal honesty.

i don't smell anything

all of your posts are starting to sound strikingly familiar

[chufeng]

PA,

I am biting my tongue here, because I hate wasting my time with trolls...but I am giving you the benefit of a doubt.


i have never said it was effective. i was saying there that of course after 15 years in karate you might be a good fighter. but then again after 15 years of weightlifting someone can become a good fighter to.

Weightlifting does nothing to make one a good fighter...it makes one good at weight-lifting. If one were to learn how to fight AND lift weights, that would be a different story.

After 6 months in YiLiQuan, My brothers could not touch me (both with ten-plus years of boxing and 100s of competition matches under their belts...regional champions...one went to the nationals, twice...one boxed on a USA team in Europe) I will admit that I had two years of boxing and five years of Judo...but Judo does not prepare you to fight a boxer...

Your argument of 15 years in training does not wash...

The key is finding QUALITY instruction...you CLAIM that you had quality instruction...I say BS...you believe you had quality instruction but reality says you did not...

I don't really care what you study, where you want to go with this discusion, or why you posted in the first place...but don't dis Karate because you didn't "get it"...

Find a better dojo...
...and if you choose not to follow Karate, or Ch'uan Fa...then understand that your 1.5 years of "experience" adds up to scat and you really don't know what you're talking about.

regards...Who needs a wake-up?

:asian:
chufeng

[platinum_angel]

Weightlifting does nothing to make one a good fighter...it makes one good at weight-lifting. If one were to learn how to fight AND lift weights, that would be a different story.

so your saying the average weight lifter could not take the average karate pratitioner. i would bet money on it.


After 6 months in YiLiQuan, My brothers could not touch me (both with ten-plus years of boxing and 100s of competition matches under their belts...regional champions...one went to the nationals, twice...one boxed on a USA team in Europe) I will admit that I had two years of boxing and five years of Judo...but Judo does not prepare you to fight a boxer...

cool see you cross train. but i doubt they couldn't touch you. unless yiliquan is a ground fighting art. :)


The key is finding QUALITY instruction...you CLAIM that you had quality instruction...I say BS...you believe you had quality instruction but reality says you did not...

I don't really care what you study, where you want to go with this discusion, or why you posted in the first place...but don't dis Karate because you didn't "get it"...

Find a better dojo...
...and if you choose not to follow Karate, or Ch'uan Fa...then understand that your 1.5 years of "experience" adds up to scat and you really don't know what you're talking about.

wow strong words.

wow i didn't think you'd get this emotional and protective. i'll make a deal with if you want to end this discussion now i will to. but if you want to keep discussing it too, then i will. i could go on for hours. i have also decided that it is not my place to preach to you guys that karate sucks. even though it does.:rofl:

[chufeng]

PA,

Apparently you missed the little piece on Judo training...but I never had to resort to groundfighting...

and


it is not my place to preach to you guys that karate sucks. even though it does.

Since you make a clear indication that your cup is full, your mind is closed, and you want nothing to do with Karate...I see no reason to continue...

:rolleyes:
chufeng

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by platinum_angel
if you take karate and cross-train it with hapkido or something then you will become a better fighter.

Unless, of course, you are not taking one of the knock-off brands of karate, and are studying one of the styles that never lost the joint-locks and throws that are already contained therein...


i did have quality instruction OF KARATE.

For having had such "quality" instruction, you sure do speak poorly of what you learned... You say that karate is ineffective, then say it is effective... So which is it?


when did i defend my style. lol. i have been saying its ineffective:rofl:

Every time you say that your training was of high quality. Because if it really had been, then in the 1.5 years you have been studying you would have been exposed to much more than you apparently have been.

And if it is so ineffective, why do you continue to study it and defend your teachers as having provided you with good instruction, which clearly it wasn't, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.


mabye its because you intiminated them with your vast superiority:rofl: :rofl:

and


is it just me or are you starting to make personal attacks on me.:rofl:

Seems you are the only one making personal attacks and snide comments...


i don't even know where tacoma is. i think arizona

All the sarcastic comments I could make are being choked down as I type... Ever hear of this new thing called a map? Do a search on the internet, I'm sure you'll find out where Tacoma is... Or you could even look under my name on the left side of the screen, and it'll tell you right where I am.

Suddenly things are beginning to fall into place... :rolleyes:


go to the ufc's website and look for someone takes karate and participates in it too. i have only seen one guy and he was cross trained. majority BJJ and kickboxing.

And if you look at Wimbledon's website, you'll see that all the athlete's that participate in the events held there train specifically for that environment as well... You see a lot of boxers training in wrestling? No. Why? Because the format of their sport doesn't need it... If you want to compete in the UFC and all the other copy cat events, based primarily on the use of submission wrestling, then you must train in submission arts to be competitive... I still want to see a Gracie take on 6 guys at once and see how well BJJ fares...


within that time i learned how to tie my belt, learn 4 katas, stand properly in all forms, and a lot of useless techniques.

Tying your belt. Nice. Four kata? Which ones? Standing properly? Really? And who told you that? The teachers whose instruction you say is ineffective and useless? Useless techniques? Which ones, specifically? Have you told your karate teachers that you thought their teachings are ineffective and useless? Just curious... :idunno:


i compare karate practitioners to a street fighter and i compare that art to arts that i have been in.

There is no such thing as a "street fighter." A "street fighter" does not have the benefit of training, repeated instruction and conditioning, etc. He does what he does, and it works once to get him out of a scrape. He relies on sneakiness and dirty tricks to win the edge - it has nothing to do with "technique."


i have never said it was effective. i was saying there that of course after 15 years in karate you might be a good fighter.

Perhaps what you meant to say was that the learning curve to traditional martial arts is slower to produce fighters than other methods...? :idunno: Because by saying that karate produces good fighters sure sounds a lot like saying karate is effective...


but then again after 15 years of weightlifting someone can become a good fighter to.

Only if they are trying to beat up the barbell... :lol:

Lifing weights does not teach you a thing whatsoever about dealing with an opponent. To make such a statement is flatly assinine.


i have never been in a bout but does that mean i don't know how to box. i spent a year boxing with a friend but then i had to move to another school.

So in addition to never having tested your boxing skills (though you "know" you know how), you spent a year boxing with a friend while a schoolboy? How old are you?


i don't smell anything

all of your posts are starting to sound strikingly familiar

Having trouble seeing the forest because the trees are obstructing the view, I'd say.

Whose posts do my posts remind you of? Others who disagree with you?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by platinum_angel
so your saying the average weight lifter could not take the average karate pratitioner. i would bet money on it.

I am beginning to see that your ability to present a telling argument in favor of your thusfar unsubstantiated "karate sucks" claims is likely to continue degrading as time goes on...


cool see you cross train. but i doubt they couldn't touch you. unless yiliquan is a ground fighting art. :)

And your camp is revealed... Another "ground fighting is everything" adherent. Well, to get to the person to take them down, you have to spend some time standing up. And if they aren't in the mood to allow you to take them down, well...

And the way I see it, it wasn't cross training... Cross training implies training in different arts that is concurrently ongoing. Chufeng's training in boxing and judo preceded his time in Yiliquan.


i have also decided that it is not my place to preach to you guys that karate sucks. even though it does.:rofl:

Always nice to see that your response remain mature and adult...

How old are you again? Not that we would know if you were telling the truth or not, but your argument style is reminiscent of a know it all preteen, which would fit in with the 1.5 years of excellent, quality instruction in useless, ineffective martial arts.

I'm done with you. Rant on as you like, but your comments stand as blistering testimony to all that read them that you really haven't the first clue as to what you are saying.

Another log for the pile, I suppose...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[platinum_angel]

do you really want me to reply to your posts.:rofl: :rofl:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by platinum_angel
do you really want me to reply to your posts.:rofl: :rofl:

No, not at all. You have nothing I care to hear. You are obviously devoid of beneficial information, are unwilling to quantify and qualify your comments, and care only to bait and troll this board to foment unrest.

No, I really am finished with you on this topic. Perhaps we can exchange information regarding other subjects, but in this one I have no further use for you...

Good day.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[platinum_angel]

hmmmmmmmm

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by platinum_angel
see i agree with that. if you take karate and cross-train it with hapkido or something then you will become a better fighter.


By this one statement alone I can tell your teachers never exposed you to any “real” Karate which includes tuite.
Tuite IS grappling and IS found in karate kata and IS effective.
I would suspect your teachers (this is if you really did study karate) didn’t show you any of this because of your poor attitude and probably chose not show you anything good hoping you would either change your attitude or leave.

So if Karate sucks so bad why don’t you go back to the Karate school you were in and kick all their asses?

Then you could brag to all your little high school pals how “you da man”.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
By this one statement alone I can tell your teachers never exposed you to any “real” Karate which includes tuite.


Of course, here in the States that's quite common--Karate largely means punch and kick here. George Dillman has effected some changes in that regard but not much.

Recall that Karate is a generic term here, too--for many people it means Korean Karate (i.e. TKD). Yes, the term 'Korean Karate' grates on my ears too, but I'm suggesting there may be differences of terminology here--using the same words with different connotations. It also isn't clear to me if the poster studied American Goju or another type of Goju.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by platinum_angel
*yawns*

hmm let me start out by saying i have taken a year and a half of goju-ryu karate.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by arnisador
It also isn't clear to me if the poster studied American Goju or another type of Goju.

If the quality of instruction is as substandard as it seems, I question whether he would even know or not...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

I question whether he studied karate of any sort at all.....or whether he just came here to "troll"

[angrywhitepajamas]

He's just been putting every one in a circular conversation, getting all of us riled up.

PA,
Have you trained enough in goju to be introduced to the iron body teqniques, What association were you training with?
If you are a student of any kind then you should know that basing your opinion of karate on one or two teachers does not give you a complete picture. Besides I would like to hear your reason as to why karate sucks. Was it the kata training, the fact that you get hit in trainging, or the lack of it, was it that you were trainging in a point tournament school, or a full contact dojo? Please tell us the reason. If it was the school that turned you off then perhaps you should ask the admin for help finding a reputable association , and from there a school that is near you who's style you like.

But I am curious to know.

In addition I practice one of the sister styles of goju ryu. So pardon me If I get my feathers ruffled.Plus If you train right, the boxers will not want to hit you and the wretlers will not want to come too close.

Please reply with some respect. Some of the people on this board get angry when you criticize something that they have invested a few decades of blood sweat and thought into a practice. If you are in highschool think of it like an old foot ball coach who generally knows his stuff being replaced by a young coach with less credentialls, and who does not know how to coach the team, and has not proved himself to the faculty in general.

[angrywhitepajamas]

every one else please don't take offence at this.

some tpeople who don't practice any martial art wonder why we get so defensive all of the time.

[IMAA]

Okay this may be long but I think it may shed light on the Karate negative Exposure.

For someone to say Karate does not work for them or would not work for them, is fine. To me thats your own opinion.

I however have been in the Martial Arts for 17yrs. In that time I have studied booku different systems of martial arts. Some I've had to travel to learn, others I have not. A short list is this:
American Karate-do
Chungdokwan TKD
JunFan Gung FU / JKDconcepts
Pekiti Tirsia Kali, Inayan Eskrima, Arnis De Mano
Mande Muda Pencak Silat, various other Silat systems...
Aikijujutsu, BJJ, Savate, Muay Thai, Russian Systema, Wrestling, WesternBoxing, RyuKyuKempo Karate, Small Circle JuJitsu, Hapkido, Shen Chuan, Burmese Bando, Wing Chun.

Now not all these systems have I got rank or instruction in but I have enough exposure to them that I understand those arts. I Have rank or instructorship in at least 4 of those systems stated.

Now out of all those my primary study is American Karate-do, WHY? Because once you find good instruction or a good teacher no matter what all these arts have to offer ONE good art w/ ONE good teacher will take you to the same limit or same place ALL THESE are going anyway. Some may take you there quicker, some may take you on a different path. But in the end your going to gain the same knowledge that each system is based on.

Example: Last night in class I was talking w/ an 7th dan in Shorin Ryu Karate do he travels twice a month to Peoria ILL. to train w/ Grang Master Phillip Koeppell Now this guy Mstr. Vichiolli (V) for short we sat around and talked about kata bunkai and weapons and so on......now he must have at least 20 yrs experience on me in the arts...but our knowledge is at about the same point in standing to a degree. However he is a Traditional Karate practicioner, and someone I hold in High Regaurds, his knowledge is great his skill i great... He and I and several other Black belts were standing around and as I started to notice we were the only 2 discussing things and understanding points being made. All the other black belts in the roomwere just seeming to be kinda standing back takng it all in as if they had'nt a clue. By the way im only a 3rd dan, but thats by my choice I stopped in Karate for several years to endevour in other arts...
But my point is, thru Just Karate he has gained the wisdom and ability and understanding that I have gained. Its just taken him longer. But Karate does offer it, you have to seek it and be willing to learn... Now I admit alot of Karate teachers are Limited to knowledge. Some because thier instructors either refused to teach what they knew or just didnt know. But this day and age learning is how bad you want it. Karate isnt to be learnt in a year, or two.... hell not in 10 -20 yrs. You dont start to really learn and understand what your doing till you've completed the basic course and earned your black belt anyway... People get caught up in wantingthat belt Tomrrow.... Karate or Martial Arts in general is a "WAY OF LIFE", a Life time of mastery. " ROME WASNT BUILT IN A DAY PEOPLE". Karate will get you there if you seek it out properly. And the knoweldege you gain will take a lifetime to complete. IT does not matter what discipline you find it in....

W/ the Differnt fist strengths or punching styles, each system has tried to develop something over the many years to seem that thier style is more convienient. I have been trained in them all....and have fought alot boxing, street fighting.... and to be honest the best fist that I use is the common BACK TO BASIC fist I learnt in Karate thumb overlapping the two forefingers. Of course the 3/4 turn of thewrist makes a grreat load of sense and I agree w/ it, but learn it and use it if its your thing....dont try to promote it as the best and only way. I often refer back to the fist I learnt in Jun Fan a tight fist w/ my thumb placed on the side of my index finger and punching in a "straightlead" or straight fist, bottom 3 knuckles. In Karate they teach never to hit with those knuckles but BRUCE LEE said " Hitt w/ the bottom 3 knuckles" I have used that in a real fight and it worked just fine....honesty pobably my favorite way to punch. But its not the ONLY way I do punch...... I know all the 5 animal strength fists and if ever a time needed I had to use one Im sure I would.....learning all the different techniques and practicing them and honing them is the key to learning martial arts.....so you do what works and becomes 2nd nature in time of need....Simplicity, Directness, NON-TELEGRAPHIC Movements is the key to fghting...Kata is a wonderful learning tool.....It teaches us to hone our techniques, it teaches to find tech's in Bunkai it teaches us to examin our tech's and find out what works where and with what.... each movement in kata could have endless definetion behind it, but its up to us to find these. . I used to hate kata going thru the ranks, but when I started learing thru the RyuKyu System D.K.I. Dillman and his followers, It opened my mind to kata and a rebirthing and new found interest of Kata is there now....I was always given the lamest excuses as to what Kata represeted....and I later found out it was so muchmore than that....

So I appologize for the lengthy post....but I after going thru all 7 pages of this topic I felt I had alot to get off my chest w/ this.... and I know after I post it, I'll say "Dang" I should of mentioned this, or that......but in the mean time...this is the just of it...

Selamat
:asian:

[LB_Karateka]

i don't usually get involved in the threads, but i had to say that was very well stated.

[KennethKu]

Side note: I am sure many knew this already. The three knuckles punch is not Bruce Lee's original invention. He borrowed it from western boxing as well as from Wing Chun. It has been in use ever since the days of bare-knuckle boxing in the west.

[IMAA]

Well since Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do is heavily influenced by Wing Chun, as well as Jun Fan Gung Fu which has a great deal of influence to WC and Chinese boxing, western boxing thats the reason why Sijo Lee taught using that fist form. Using the "Straight lead" which is its most common referal in JKD or Jun Fan. Bruce Lee's Tao of JKD references the staight lead punch from pages 91-99. Now even Bruce showed different technique and forms of fist strenghts and striking. He show's several different ways to punch in JKD he wasnt completly always drawn to Straight lead striking w/ bottom three knuckles. In delivering a shovel hook or any hook type punch he used he top two because of the simplicity of motion for one and the angle that your making contact. The same is reasoned w/ the 3/4 turn for a reverse punch vs. the horizontal reverse punch. I personally use the 3/4 turn reverse punch when delivering it, but thats preference over practice. I'll from time to time find me throwing the horizontal RP due to the many years of practicing it that way. Especially if Im throwing them from the Kibadachi stance....I have to actually think about the 3/4 fist when throwing rev. punching in Kiba dachi to discipline my self to do it that way...after so many ways of doing it another.....But in my opinion its a preference rather than I feel im doing it wrong or right. Again, Im greatful that I am able to understand the differences and my Renshi is very open minded and we can all empty our cups in the class.

:asian:

Thanks
Cory

[Deathtrap101]

Hey I'm a black belt- I could open a school, and two of my classmates have students of their own. I can give you some trouble in the ring, does that mean I can teach you how to use your body well in a fight? I can perform Bassai Dai, and I can show you the moves- does that mean I can pull it apart and give you understanding of all the lessons in this kata? Nope.


Actualy my sensei first started teaching class's as a brown belt. And my sensei doesn't do it for a living. He did this in interest of his own training, his sensei would come to him like every 2 months or something but he would have to travel to him every two weeks to learn. When his sensei came by it was to make sure my sensei's students could do what he was being taught. Keep in mind this is before my time and what he has told me. He has worked very hard and would hound his sensei's for more information(he would eat breakfeast and dinner and almost stalk them while he asked about stuff). Right now he has a second degree black belt and has held it for a number of years. He plans on having his third and fourth within the next year or two.

I'm only saying this because, just because you don't hold a high rank doesnt mean can't offer good training.

that's all i have to say on that matter, critisize if you wish ill responde with what i got.

About that platinum angel dude, your knowledge equivelant in boxing is equal to kata on it's own(maybe a little more). But you have to actualy get in the ring if you wanna know how to box.

[IMAA]

Funny, I was just going thru the Combative Solutions Forum and ran accross this thread....kinda goes along with what I was talking bout....cool




http://www.forumco.com/bigjkd/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3504&FORUM_ID=1&CAT_ID=1&Topic_Title=vertical+fist+powerline+and+Jack+Demps ey&Forum_Title=1+%2D+Combative+Solutions+Forum (http://)

[Jill666]

Originally posted by Deathtrap101
I'm only saying this because, just because you don't hold a high rank doesnt mean can't offer good training.


Oh, I'm not arguing that you can't teach well at brown belt. But how many students do you see, in the dojo all the time, practicing and working faithfully to the extent your instructor did? Some. How many can really dig deep and then impart the info to someone else? Some.

But these are far outnumbered by the shodans who make the rank, then start teaching at Bob Smith All- American Karate and Bait Shop. These are the ones who cheapen the art and cheat their students by omission, if not by intention.

I know just because you hold a eighth degree black deosn't mean you can teach worth a damn, or that you didn't buy that rank (no need to elaborate here). ;) But if you put in the years and time and thought and sweat- what a gift it becomes to hand on to your students! Just my 2 cents. :asian:

[chufeng]

Jill,

A gift? Maybe in the sense that the teacher gives it without reservation...but the student must WORK to receive it...one generally doesn't have to work for a gift...I think TREASURE is a better word.

:asian:
chufeng

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng
Jill,

A gift? Maybe in the sense that the teacher gives it without reservation...but the student must WORK to receive it...one generally doesn't have to work for a gift...I think TREASURE is a better word.

:asian:
chufeng

Well said!:asian:

[cali_tkdbruin]

That pesky platinum_angel sure did stir up one hell of a hornet's here in the short time he was around with his ignorant, myopic comments! :eek:

I noticed he recently got run. I'm sure that if wouldn't have gotten clipped, my Art would be next on his list... :mad: :angry:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin
I'm sure that if wouldn't have gotten clipped, my Art would be next on his list... :mad: :angry:

Nah... I'm sure the rest of us would have been more than happy to bash TKD for him... :lol: :lol:

:D:D

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Matt Stone]

You know I was kidding, right?

:D:D:D

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Marginal]

Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin
That pesky platinum_angel sure did stir up one hell of a hornet's here in the short time he was around with his ignorant, myopic comments! :eek:

I noticed he recently got run. I'm sure that if wouldn't have gotten clipped, my Art would be next on his list... :mad: :angry: He already tried in kinda a vague watered down Infight kinda way...

[Jill666]

Originally posted by chufeng
I think TREASURE is a better word.
:asian:
chufeng

It's a far better word- Thank you! :asian:

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Nah... I'm sure the rest of us would have been more than happy to bash TKD for him... :lol:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I tell ya! We TKDists are like Rodney Dangerfield, we never get respect. :shrug:
First Karate takes a hit over here that it doesn't merit, and now we TKDists, just standing around innocently on the side and just minding our own business also take a shot in the nads.

Dang!!! I just poke my head in here to take a look see :lookie: to find out what all the commotion is about and I get assaulted too! :mad:
See if I ever come over again and visit all yall Karatekas... :moon:

;) :ultracool

[Matt Stone]

Well, if you TKD people weren't so blatantly inflammatory in your constant public haranguing of the rest of us...

We know you are all just pretenders to the throne of Sinanju...

;)

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Jill666]

:( *sniff*

Maybe not. ;)

Hey if you're a good TKD practitioner, come by anytime and we'll work on my kicking combos- they're not as bitchin' as I'd like. :D

Then I'll show you Lin Wan Quin, and you'll feel a whole new type of burn-

Sounds like fun to me!:boing2: