I'm just curious as to how many ITF practitioners there are floating around this forum. I do ITF in NZ.

Desiree.

Hi, I think I remember your name from the ITF bulletin board. I'm with ITFC.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I'm currently studying ITF. We're associated with the AAU

jb

:D

The organisation I'm with is affiliated to Great Britain ITF which is ITFC.

I was in the ITF through the USTF, which has now broken away from ITF-Vienna/ITF-North Korea, which I think is the best thing they could have done.


:asian:

That makes two of us.

I used to be in the ITF before I switched to kenpo karate. 6 yrs. of training there. I still though however practice the forms on occassion for variety and not really wanting to forget them.

I used to be in the ITF before I switched to kenpo karate.

That's what I did. I made it to black belt, which took some work back then, but wanted to learn to use my hands better. I had watched some kenpo people at some local tournaments and was hooked on it. The way they used their hands and were able to work so well on the inside was so cool.

I do still practice all the forms which is up to Ge-Baek just because I don't want to forget them and I help teach them once in a while at my buddy's school.

:asian:

Our dojang is affiliated with WTF, but we still focus on the more traditional Hyungs for form training (Do you call the forms "Tul" in ITF maybe? My teacher just says Hyung,,,).
We do olympic type sparring w/pads though, not the point system being used in ITF.

Originally posted by Kong

Our dojang is affiliated with WTF, but we still focus on the more traditional Hyungs for form training (Do you call the forms "Tul" in ITF maybe? My teacher just says Hyung,,,).
We do olympic type sparring w/pads though, not the point system being used in ITF.

we do call them hyung...btw, do you know why your instructor still uses them while in the wtf?? from what i have heard, the wtf developed the tae-guk set to get away from the shotokan influence evident in the chon-ji patterns...maybe you can ask about it.

jb

"We do olympic type sparring w/pads though, not the point system being used in ITF."

That sounds odd, what do you mean by that, you guys aren't doing freestyle point sparring? Last time I watched the olympics, each hit was scored as a point.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Originally posted by Klondike93


I do still practice all the forms which is up to Ge-Baek just because I don't want to forget them and I help teach them once in a while at my buddy's school.
:asian:


Cool, At the moment this caught me during lunch. I can't remember but I was thinking Ge-Baek was form 12 or 13? I had Chong-Ji through Po-Eun. Anyway that's as high as I got. :)

Ge-Baek is the next pattern after Po-Eun

I did learn a couple of others, just not "officially".

:asian:

Originally posted by Klondike93

I was in the ITF through the USTF, which has now broken away from ITF-Vienna/ITF-North Korea, which I think is the best thing they could have done.


:asian:

Hi Klondike,
Just curious; why do you think it was the best thing they could have done? And how big is the USTF now?

T.K
Desiree

Originally posted by Klondike93

Ge-Baek is the next pattern after Po-Eun

I did learn a couple of others, just not "officially".

:asian:


Yeah, wasn't Ge-Baek #12, I think the last of the third black forms. At least in our class anyway. Also wasn't there some weird angles in Ge-Baek? I'm remembering something Po-Eun moved side to side, Ge-Baek moved forward and backward with some different angles in the middle of the form? Rats, I just can't remember exactly.:confused:

Well at the time I was still active they were the only ones representing the ITF in the US. Now there are at least two others trying to represent the ITF's.

All these groups tend to splinter the study of TKD, it starts to become to political to put with (at least for me). Now that the General has passed and the true plan is out that a North Korean is to assume control of the ITF, I just think it's good that the USTF gets out of it. They seem to have some damage control of their own to deal with and should attend to that with out the NK distraction.

:asian:

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

Yeah, wasn't Ge-Baek #12, I think the last of the third black forms. At least in our class anyway. Also wasn't there some weird angles in Ge-Baek? I'm remembering something Po-Eun moved side to side, Ge-Baek moved forward and backward with some different angles in the middle of the form? Rats, I just can't remember exactly.:confused:

Yes, Po-Eun goes right to left and Ge-Baek is from 12 to 6 with a slight "X" deviation for good measure. It's a cool form, I used to use it in local tournaments.

When I was going through the ranks, the 1st Dan patterns required to get 2nd Dan were, Kwang-Gae, Po-Eun and Ge-Baek. I don't know if this is still true or not though.

:asian:

Yes that is still the same.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

That sounds odd, what do you mean by that, you guys aren't doing freestyle point sparring? Last time I watched the olympics, each hit was scored as a point.
I`m sorry if I was unclear, I just meant to say we do WTF style, full contact sparring. I believe in ITF you practise semi contact, with gloves and no vests? I`m sorry if I`m mistaken.

we do call them hyung...btw, do you know why your instructor still uses them while in the wtf??
Yes, this seems kind of strange doesn`t it? It sure had myself confused when I was first starting out,,,My master is pretty old, and very traditional, and he was thaught the Hyungs when he was young, and has been training them all his life. So he feels the Hyungs are the traditional way of forms training, and that they give more back to the student then Poomse training,,,wich he feels is sort of lacking in technique and power (he once stated poomse is designed for kids, to make TKD easy to learn and popularize).
The reason we`re in the WTF is to be able to compete on a larger scale in sparring.
I also train with another school now, that does Poomse, so I sort of get the best of both worlds.
:asian:

Ya Kong we compete full contact at the black belt level. Colour belt competition is a different story. I've heard things are different in the States (because people sue the poo out of eachother there) but in Canada the black belt competition is full contact. Having said that....... the official rules on paper say semi contact..... but if I go into the ring and spar semi contact at my level my opponent will eat me alive. People get knocked out on a regular basis at tournaments, the only time a judge seems to say anything about it is at smaller low level tournaments. You might get a warning at a small tournament for plowing your fist into your opponents face, but if your opponent can't continue... you just won. I don't know if on paper they say semi contact for insurance purposes but I have never seen a semi contact black belt competition in the ITF.

Just a curious question... do white and yellow belts spar full contact at tournaments in WTF? Do 6 year old children? I've always wondered about that.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Damian, back when I was still active in the ITF, here in the US we had to do it semi-contact then go get the snot beat of us in international competition.

My training partner was fighting for a spot on the US national team to go fight in Malaysa (sp) that year and knocked out the guy he was fighting for first. It was a sweet kick to the head and down he went. Might have been an act cause my buddy said he didn't hit him that hard. Well, the other guy went to fight for the US national team and got knocked out in the 1st round and lost.
In fact the whole team got killed cause they were used to fighting semi-contact and the rest of the world was fighting full contact (like it should be).



:asian:

Ya that's what I keep hearing about the States. You guys aren't allowed to compete full contact there and then get mauled at tournaments in other countries because you're not used to it. I guess this can be blamed on the ability to sue eachother easily there? Not trying to insult the States but it is the only reason I can think of for you guys competing at a different level there, since we know you guys aren't wimps or anything like that!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Just to answer your questions on white and yellow belts/children doing full contact sparring, yes it's all full contact. And just as a side note I love watching the 6 year olds in all their gear trying to kick each other. It's like watching giant marshmallows bouncing off of each other :D

You're serious? 6 year olds do full contact fighting? Maybe we have a different idea of full contact? I don't know... it's just that I can't see a parent keeping their little kid in an activity that has them bleeding and going home with loose teeth and black eyes. Parents are VERY protective of their little ones.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I think we probably have the same idea of full contact, but with all the gear on, the rules of WTF sparring (no striking face right) it's very safe for the little ones. Plus they don't have enough power/speed/coordination developed yet to do any real serious damage.

All the officials I know are quite cautious with ages that young sparring too. We know they're alot more fragile than the older kids are so we just make sure that all the rules are enforced to keep them safe, as well as being sympathetic if they do get a little boo boo.

There usually aren't alot of younger children sparring in tournments because of parents not wanting to let their kids get hurt. I agree with parents who do this, but like I said there isn't great danger for their children to get hurt.

I'll see if I can find some video footage of some younger kids sparring for you to see Mr. Mavis. That'll probably describe it better than I can.

Regards

Ahhh see at our tournaments the majority is kids so picturing 100 kids going at it full contact seemed like the odds alone would dictate that at least one would have to get seriously hurt. And no striking to the face and chest protectors/helmets would cut down on the possibility of serious injury at that age. Most competitors in ITF only wear hand and feet coverings.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

yeah, if there is only contact to the body and your wearing big pads then it wouldnt be so dangerous.......I could see a couple of guys getting canned pretty bad but other than that I think it would be alot safer than "controlled" contact to the head, as one persons definition of control tends to differ from other peoples quite often.

I believe that kids under 12 can no longer kick to the head in WTF competition.There is no head punching at any level. Adults wear a chest protector and a light weight foam helmet, with nothing on the feet or hands. However most very young children often get outfitted with ITF style mitts and boots - making for a double layer of protection. And full contact at 6 or 7 really doesn't mean a lot!
I have no experience with ITF tournaments, but I don't understand why contact is used out side of the US but not within? As Damian has said this can't be good for international competition, at least from a US perspective. It can't be because of the fear of law suites - we have too many other contact sports and MAs for that to be the reason. Does anyone have a clue as to the "official" reason?

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

I used to be in the ITF before I switched to kenpo karate. 6 yrs. of training there. I still though however practice the forms on occassion for variety and not really wanting to forget them.

Same here (Just don't tell Dennis Conatser!):rolleyes:

Originally posted by RCastillo

Same here (Just don't tell Dennis Conatser!):rolleyes:


:eek: :eek: :eek:
;) :p
:asian:

Originally posted by RCastillo
Same here (Just don't tell Dennis Conatser!):rolleyes:


You thought you could hide in the TKD room do you........... lol
I know your spots change ....... you chameleon!

:mad:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

You thought you could hide in the TKD room do you........... lol
I know your spots change ....... you chameleon!

:mad:

I know, I confess my unworthiness.:wah:

Can you win by knockout with ITF rules?:confused:

Not supposed to but I have heard of it. If you are on the retreat or defensive and accidentally knock out the aggressor then that can be ok, but of you are putting your bodyweight into things with the intent to injure, and you do, then you will be disqualified if the other person cannot continue. The higher the tournament, the more will be tolorated. "any" blood at provincials is grounds for disqualification where as at nationals and worlds, it has to be a "violent flow of blood". Etc. Ultimatley it is up to the center ref. The Ref has the control in the ring and can let things go or can be a hard ass its their privalidge.

Ya if you crush his nose and blood is everywhere you are disqualified no matter what level. But at all the big tournaments I've been to I've seen people win by knockout. They issue a warning or even a minus point sometimes but if the knocked out opponent doesnt continue the fight you win. I've been to small tournaments that were the same mentality but that was up to the host of the tournament. This is what I've seen in black belt men's and women's divisions.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Damn, I'm confused! You can knock them out but not break and bloody their nose? What if you take them out with a back kick but also break some ribs? Is there a hard and fast rule governing KO's, or is it hit and miss depending on the particular event? In WTF, if you knock someone out it doesn't matter what their facial features look like while they are counting ceiling lights. It seems as though there is a ton of variation in ITF competition, does this hinder training and preperation for you guys?

You break their ribs you win. If it looks ugly they might raise a fuss, but you can be unconscious and look pretty lying there and the other guy wins if you dont continue, even if they did give him a minus point for knocking you out.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

It does totally depend on the event, who is hosting it, where it is and what level it is, who the center ref is etc. But there is a meeting the night before major events where the host spells out the expectations regarding contact and then it is up to the refs to enforce those rules, however some refs are more "flexible" than others. It has happened where if a ref was a little too anal regarding mild contact at the higher levels they were removed. And the same thing if too many people were being injured in a particular ring, ie. too much contact. There is usually a person who oversees the refs walking around at the bigger tournaments making sure everyone is doing their job properly and answers questions. As a competitor you go in prepared for either scenerio of contact, having the ability to pull your kicks if you have to. No matter what the ref will alow you to get away with, the bottom line is you dont need to hit hard to score. Hitting hard becomes part of the mind game, it has nothing to do with the point system at all. Many times out of respect, people choose not to hit each other hard because each person knows the other will answer it back with equal or more power. And since you dont need to hit hard to win... Why begin a power struggle?? Other times though, you get this total jerk for a partner who has no respect and you need to establish dominance right away. Sometimes at the risk of minus points or warnings.

At least in my experience my opponents and the people I watch fight have always been the hard hitters. But I have to admit it's always the big tournaments, I rarely go to smaller ones. There was one time in ITF when I beat my opponent with light contact but that was because we kind of knew eachother and respected eachother, when you don't know the guy it always seems to land up being all out.

Back when I was in GTF it was pretty common to go only semi contact. I found the Canadian ITF scene to be totally different and everyone hit much harder.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

^^ Your also a guy, the guys fight different than the girls do. :D A little bit more psyco. But your right, at national level you dont hold back. Cities/Provincials/Westerns(for me) you have a good chance of knowing the person so its different there too. Except last nationals, it was right after the big split and there were only 3 people in my weight division, I got the bi so then gold was for world qualifying and I really had no interest in that, and my opponent who was a freind of mine really seemed like she wanted to go so we decided she should go for sparring and I should go for patterns. So it was kind of a mock fight. Fun though. But very mild contact. She probubly would have beat me if it was for real anyway. On that note.....did you go to that one?? I dont remember too many new faces.

Are we in the same federation? heh. So hard to tell these days. I'm with ITFC.

By the way you do Muay Thai as well?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Yeah thats the one. Were you there?

Yeah I just started really. The dumb noob. This is the link to the place I train only its in Edmonton: www.mikemiles.com

If it's a tournament outside Ontario I wouldn't have been there, I can't even remember where the last Nationals were..... I was at the last Easterns in Ottawa and Master Choi's cup in Oakville.

That's pretty kool that you train under Ajarn Mike Miles. I see that guy on TV all the time.

I'm still trying to figure out if I can go on my trip to Thailand to train as I just broke my foot. It's only a hairline fracture but it's interfering with getting ready for the trip. I'm supposed to go for 2 months on Christmas day.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

aw those are the worst kind of breaks too. Takes forever to heal. But you still have 6 weeks who knows, if you baby it, it might be ok by then. Im excited for you that would be so awsome to just get up and travel like that. I hope it works out.