Professor???? Michael Bates

[DoctorB]

OK Folks,

I need some help here... I just read an ad in the Decomber 2002 issue of Inside Kung Fu, that "Professor Michael Bates" was going to be a presenter at a Filipino Martial Arts Seminar, in Philadelphia, Pa. on November 16, along with GM Max Pallen, Tuhon Chris Sayoc and Tuhon Mark Wiley. My question is when did Michael Bates become a "professor" of Presas Modern Arnis?

I do recall that he was using the title Professor, Jr. or was it Jr. Professor, because the title "master" did note mesh well with his last name, but how and when did he beome a "professor"? Who awarded that distinction for the art of "Presas Modern Arnis"?

Was I the only member of this forum to see this ad on page 120 of the above mentioned issue of IKF?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[dearnis.com]

Haven't seen the ad (I try to avoid the martial arts media if I can... bad for my stress levels...), but Professor frequently used "Junior Professor as a nickname for Michael Bates. The use of the title professor goes back to around February of this year; whether anyone awarded it, and whether he claims it in Modern Arnis, I couldn't say.

[Bob Hubbard]

Dig around here a bit...there was some discussion several months back, in part regarding his use of the title 'professor'.

[Guro Harold]

Te original thread was: http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1048

[Cebu West]

Michael Bates is no Professor. He just conviently forgot to include the junior. Typical
I've been there ,seen that, and that's why I'm with Datu Hartman.

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Palusut

Te original thread was: http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1048

Thanks for the url, I am going to do some reading.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Cebu West

Michael Bates is no Professor. He just conviently forgot to include the junior. Typical
I've been there ,seen that, and that's why I'm with Datu Hartman.

Ok, I got through the first page of the thread and two things stood out for me - (1) Michael Bates was promoted to 4th
degree by Professor Presas and (2) the use of the term "master" would have been very, very laughable for everyone except Michael (and a number of people seemed ready to enjoy the joke on several levels at once).

So does this title of "professor" mean that Michael Bates, is now
senior to Datu Hartman.....? :o {Just kidding, Cebu West & Tim}

This is just one example of why I deem the 2003 Symposium to be a worthwhile effort to promote... Jeff Delaney, a 5th degree has been calling himself a grand master and the "successor" to the late GM Presas; now, Michael Bates, a 4th degree is calling himself a "professor" 'of Presas Modern Arnis'....

Personally, I would love to see them both attend the Symposium and take it to the floor so that I can compare what they have to offer against what Datu Hartman, Guro McConnell, Guro Ng, Guro Muhammad, Senior Master Anderson, PG D. Presas, PG R. Presas, Jr. have to offer those of us who are interested in learning from the best and most knowledgable instructors of the art.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Guro Harold]

There could be another twist to this discussion. This could be a gross observation, but GM Pallen uses the term "Professor" it seems for master class instructors on his website.

But again I am drawing this general assessment based on his website for the annoucements for this event and some other events.

Go to http://pallensmartialarts.org/events/index.html and look through the whole page, several people are addressed as "Professor".

I feel that in Modern Arnis, "Professor", was a term of respect and endearment reserved for GM Presas only.

[bloodwood]

Michael Bates only Modern Arnis teacher was Professor Presas and he always made it known how close he was to the Professor. Now that the real Professor is gone and he seems to be associated with Max Pallen still doesn't give him the right to use the title professor. This is just plain blatant disrespect to the man who did so much for him. Maybe he believes this new title will revive his fading career in the martial arts. You can only burn so many bridges and annoy only so many people before you are left out in the cold. And if your going to burn a bridge you shouldn't be standing on it at the time. :flame:

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by bloodwood

Michael Bates only Modern Arnis teacher was Professor Presas and he always made it known how close he was to the Professor. Now that the real Professor is gone and he seems to be associated with Max Pallen still doesn't give him the right to use the title professor. This is just plain blatant disrespect to the man who did so much for him. Maybe he believes this new title will revive his fading career in the martial arts. You can only burn so many bridges and annoy only so many people before you are left out in the cold. And if your going to burn a bridge you shouldn't be standing on it at the time. :flame:

Hello Bloodwood,

If I am reading your post correct... it was Michael Bates who alwyas made it known that he (Bates) was close to the late Professor Presas...

That being the case and since he has allied himself with professor Max Pallen, I would agree that his usage of "Professor" is both inappropriate and a callous disregard toward the man that Bates claimed to be so close to while he was alive.

Modern Arnis players should be careful to recognize that the leaders of other martial arts systems can and do use the title
"Professor". It is neither disrespectful nor inappropriate for them to do so, HOWEVER, the same does not apply to those of us who studied Modern Arnis under the late GM, Professor Remy Presas! Michael Bates, no matter how close he claimed to have been to Professor Presas, is no exception to this statement, especially when his use of "professor" is being associated with the phrase 'Presas Modern Arnis'.

If he had chosen to use the term "punong" or "guro", there might have been some snickering and chuckling, but not this sense of distain and disrespect.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Guro Harold]

Is it a case where others are writing the promotional information and Mr. Bates could not or is not altering it, or is it the case that he is consciously using the title?

[bloodwood]

If someone were writing a promo for me and put me out there as Professor Bloodwood, I'd be all over them like a cheep suit. And there IS such a thing as proofreading. No Excuse, No Excuse, No Excuse. When people become legends in their own minds, they tend to justify whatever they are doing and by any means possible. Without honor there is no respect. He has neither./


:flushed:

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Palusut

Is it a case where others are writing the promotional information and Mr. Bates could not or is not altering it, or is it the case that he is consciously using the title?

I can not definately tell you that Bates wrote the promo ad and sumitted it to IKF, personally, however, since he is the seminar host, I would think that he would have had some editorial input before the ad went out to the magazine. What's your guess?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Guro Harold]

Hi DoctorB,

I cannot tell how Mr. Bates is personally using the title. There is no title associated with the announcement in events page for Black Belt Magazine (http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/events/).

This public advertisement has contact information for him.

PHILADELPHIA, PA—Triple Impact Meeting of the Filipino Masters! 1 day seminar with Grandmaster Jeff Delaney of Modern Arnis; Tuhon Chris Sayoc of Sayoc Kali; and Professor Max Pallen, Grandmaster, Senkotiros Escrima, on November 16, 2002. Join us for the best of Filipino Martial Arts! For info. contact Michael T. Bates at 803 N. Providence Rd.; Media, PA 19063 or call 610-565-3600. e-mail mtbmaa@comcast.net or visit www.professorpresas.com

[dearnis.com]

safe to say that is an old announcement; Jeff has been off the list of instructors for the camop since he and Michael parted ways in the spring.
Chad

[Guro Harold]

Oh, by the way, Ms. McManus is definitely using the title "Professor". Please refer to the most recent events page for www.modernarnis.com.

Her reasons are all her own, but she writes her own press so it is a conscious decision for her.

[bloodwood]

Your info on Lisa is correct however your link to IMAF is incorrect. That link is for MARPPIO. Here is IMAF news page link reffering to your statement.

http://www.professorpresas.com/news.htm

Bloodwood

[Guro Harold]

Thanks Bloodwood, old links die hard.:)

[dearnis.com]

Maybe we could all just agree to retire the title; you know, no one uses it in relation to Modern Arnis anymore
:(

[arnisador]

Originally posted by dearnis.com

Maybe we could all just agree to retire the title; you know, no one uses it in relation to Modern Arnis anymore

As far as I'm concerned, that occurred when the Professor passed away.

[Guro Harold]

Originally posted by arnisador

As far as I'm concerned, that occurred when the Professor passed away.

I agree with both dearnis.com and arnisador.

[mtb]

As the late Prof. Presas used to say "my blood is boiling..."
It was May of 1996 at the Rutledge firehouse in rutledge,Pa. at approx. 3 pm in the afternoon when the late Prof. called everyone together an made the following announcement to 54 people. (one of them being TJ who spent the night in my dojo.)"you will now refer to Michael T. Bates as Professor"
the shortest version i can give you dear readers is that at a seminar in Atlanta some weeks before, the prof. overheard some rather well known individuals making fun of my last name with the term "master". HE told THEM to cut it out and to now call me Professor. this was a wonderful person who went to bat for me for no other reason that to stick up for a friend. I was the one who later suggested the term "jr." be added cause he was the one and only. Like the Godfather II, this was a title of respect and endearment, nothing else. My skills if you wish to call them that are Ok at best. as you all must be aware, i have been silent throughout his illness and subsequent death. I've made no claims, no bad-mouthing or ill-will to anyone. You may also be aware that he got out of his bed and flew to Phila. Pa to stay with my wife Karen and me in his second home here in Media. Does anyone think he had nothing else better to do? I sat with him in riddle hospital for 5 days as he had contracted pnumonia during his flight here. I snuck Outback lollypop lamb chops into his room on several occasions. He said I saved his life by getting him to the hospital in the nick of time. I thought sleeping for 14 hrs. was normal. the green stuff he puked up was a different story. He didn't have a speck of insurance and the hospital was closed with the very epidemic he was there for. I've never been accused of being the brightest bulb, but the Fillipino doctor i spotted and introduced to the Gm may have been why he had an IV in him after a 90 minute wait. back to the matter at hand.
I will make all of you reading this a promise, If it offends anyone that is use this word "professor" i will cease. The simple reason is this, life is too short . Do you remember who used to say that?
None of you can erase what was said between the 2 of us in my house in Feb. of 2001. No one can take away the trip he made to Media,pa which was to be his last public appearance.
The thing that strikes me the most is that people I've never met in 12 years of full-time with the GM say "when did this or that happen?" Well if those folks had attended a camp (27 for me)
or a seminar (71) they would not have those questions.
Lastly, the coward among you who was in Rutledge Pa on the very date but has chosen to "forget" can live with their shame.
As the Professor said to me "michael, i have thousands of students around the world, but very few friends, you are one of them"

I'm one of the few folks who knows where the bodies are buried, and trust me there are some people who aren't going to dig some of the things I know about. What the hell do you think the GM and I spoke of all the time? I used to be a bartender for 12 years and listening to some one pour their heart out is my speciality
I'll go back into my foxhole now and await the "incoming"
mtb

[mtb]

Originally posted by Cebu West

Michael Bates is no Professor. He just conviently forgot to include the junior. Typical
I've been there ,seen that, and that's why I'm with Datu Hartman.
Typical??
Typical is a person in the martial arts who turns his back on his instructor, his GM, his impending promotion, his fellow mates, and what truely took place. Never having the fortitude to sit down and speak to me like a man. Now, that's typical.
Why you are with Tj is not my business. But you sir are a coward as well as a disgrace. If you wish to BS the folks who do not know your MO, that's fine. it would seem I wasn't typical for the years you spent at MAA introducing you to everyone you know, giving you private access to taika Oyata as well as the late Gm at my home on numerous occasions. did we forget that?? is that also typical of me? Whos name is at the bottom right hand corner of all you certificates up to feb of 01?
Oh, that's right you typically forgot......
don't worry, your secret is safe with me......
mtb

[arnisador]

Thanks for your post Mr. Bates. These things are often more complicated than they first appear to be.

[jaybacca72]

Michael,i met you in PA with Tim H and i found you to be quite a passionate guy about your training and you let tim and myself stay at your house and i thank you for that.as far as the title goes i wouldn't sweat it i think everybody has something to offer but the title thing is just going on too far. I personally think the title thing is about ego's and they do have merit but not the way they are being used as of late. there is a reason why remy and dan inosanto have respect worlwide and that is because they never bragged about being a gm or grand puba they let thier students do that. If your students brag about you thats great but it's not ok if you do it about yourself.If it is for a seminar flyer or bio that's another story all together.
how do you like training with max pallen?
later
jay
CANADA
ps good luck in the future!:D

[DoctorB]

Without quoting his entire posts and all, I would like to invite Mr. Bates to join us at the 2003 Modern Arnis Symposium as a presenter. He can add his input and skills to the list of instructors who will be teaching us the full spectrum of the late Professor Presas' art.

I can agree with the late GM when he admonished some people for playing games around Mr. Bates name in conjunction with the title of master. It was wrong then, it would still be wrong and in very poor taste, however it is equally wrong to believe that carrying the title forward after the death of the late GM Presas is anything other than questionable in taste. There has been a very strong consistance among many writers on this forum, whether they were refering to Mr. Bates, Mr. Delaney or Ms. McManus: they always questioned the ethical and performance merits of using the title "Professor" in conjunction with Modern Arnis presentations.

I have extended the same invitation to Mr. Delaney, Ms. McManus and now Mr. Bates. Mr. Delaney has kept the door open, by neither accepting or declining the invitation and he intends to inform me at a later time about his final decision. Ms. McManus has declined, thinking that the date was July 2002, but when informed of the correct date, she did not respond to either recind or confirm her original statement. I will write her again after the first of the year. I have also asked Mr. Rocky Paswik, if he would like to be a presenter and he has not given any indication as to his intentions, as of this date.

Thus far the people who have indicated that they are interested in participating as instructors are:

Dan Anderson
Bram Frank
Dan McConnell
Tim Hartman
Demetrio Presas
with possibly Remy Presas, Jr. & Mary Ann Presas
Shishir Inocalla
Kelly Worden
Peter Vargas
Dawud Muhammad
Tom Bolden
David Ng
Bruce Chiu

There are some other people who I would like to see added to the list of presenters because I want to have the complete Modern Arnis spectrum from the 1960's in RP to the mid 70's when Professor Presas first arrived in the USA through the 1980's and 90's, until his death in 2001 represented. So I am hoping that Mr. Bates will agree to join us and make a couple a presentations of Presas Modern Arnis.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[mtb]

Sir,
I have gone to great lengths to dis-associate myself from those other individuals you've lumped me in with. I would appreciate it if you would refrain. Perhaps you should read my previous post again.
You do not know me nor have we ever met. I have been to just about every east coast function since 1989 and have yet to cross your path. You must of been too busy to attend a camp or a seminar. That's okay. Just a word of advice, you may want to think about supporting other folks before you ask for theirs
Trust me, one less instructor at your event is the best thing I could do for you.
mtb

[Brian Johns]

Hey there Michael,

How are you ? Good to see you here. Too bad that you've been hammered here. Keep in mind that there are other folks who are quite decent in their posts. Of course, there are those who try to have it both ways.

Take care,
Brian Johns

[Rich Parsons]

MTB,

It is good to see another person on his site.

As for your official Title, I have heard The Professor call you Junior Professor. Do I think it is appropriate to use the title? In my opinion no. But, my opinion and a $1.00 will get you $0.65 because the government will take the rest.

Maybe you should put the title to rest for a while? You could use
Guro, Senior Instructor, or Punong Guro? Just some quick suggestions.

Yet as I stated, it is my opinion and that should not be something you take great stock in. My advice is meant in honest help to be given to another person, who is trying to promote Modern Arnis.

Best wishes and Good Luck

Rich
:asian:

[Guro Harold]

Hi Michael,

Please keep in mind my original statements from the reference below. Speaking for myself this is not a personal attack against you or a question of your deep and close relationship with the Professor. As stated below in the original post starter and as I have mentioned to you personally at the Oct 2001 memorial, I deeply respect your care for GM Presas, when he was sick.

Please note however that, not only is the term "Professor" a dear term of endearment for you, but it also is shared term of endearment within the Modern Arnis community for the GM Presas as well.

It is permissible for you to use that title and you may have the right, but is it the best?

For example, as a matter of principle, I do not wear my Red and Black belt around the Presas children (MARRPIO), who now reserve that color scheme out of respect for their father.

Best regards,

Harold Evans
Palusut

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the original thread starter:"JD is using professor title for master!!!" 2/27/2002

"...I have nothing personal against either of these two individuals and I deeply respect Michael Bates for looking after the Professor when he got sick, however, to use that title to me crosses the line of simple decency.

Palusut"

[Cebu West]

Now that my secret is safe with mtb and 1200 or so Martial Talk members, lets move on to the truth and my MO. I do promise the members of this forum that I will not turn this into a flame war. I have been accused in public so here is where I'll make my stand.

"Typical is a person in the martial arts that turns his back on his instructor"

I left this instructor for several reasons.

He changed his priorities and his agenda and his program was headed in a negative direction.
Politics became more important than teaching.
Lack of interest.(Played solitaire on the computer while the students trained).
Martial arts training hours were cut from 2 hours to 1.
Taught two arts, Modern Arnis and Ryu Te, but almost completely stopped teaching Ryu Te and stopped bringing in Taika Oyata for seminars. So years of Ryu Te training were going out the window.
A lack of respect for his students.

Turns his back on his GM (Professor Remy)

This never happened and never will. I study, teach and am loyal to Professor Presas and always will be. I am associated with the WMAA, an organization that carries on the teachings of Professor Presas. I did not leave Modern Arnis to become associated with Max Pallen and his style, which is NOT Modern Arnis, as mtb has done.

Turns his back on his impending promotion.

Professor was ill at this time and JD was running the show. Seeing the level of those that were going to test and the short amount of time they had doing the art made me not wish to have my black belt under this organization. Soon after this I contacted Datu Hartman and asked to be part of his organization and said I would rather test for my BB under him, no matter how long I had to wait. It was worth the wait, I am proud of my rank and my organization.

Turns his back on his mates.

Most of my fellow students at maa are no longer there. They have left as well.
And this my come as a surprise to mtb but out of all those former mates that are still active in Modern Arnis, I train with, teach, talk to and see them on a regular basis. They sought me out. I even stay in touch with the ones that aren't active.

Never having the fortitude to sit down and talk to me like a man.

There are some people that really don't want you to tell them that they are doing something wrong in their business. Students should mind their own business, Right? When I stopped going to the dojo, other students called me and asked where I was, but my instructor couldn't be bothered.

But you sir are a coward as well as a disgrace.

A coward, NEVER, and you are treading on dangerous ground here.

A disgrace, NO, but that I will leave to My students, all the great people I have met through Modern Arnis, and my peers to be the judge of that.

If you wish to BS the folks who do not know your MO, that's fine.

I wear my MO on my sleeve for all to see.

Did I have access to Taika Oyata and Professor Presas at your school, yes, and it was great while it lasted.
Is your name on my certificates, yes, that is undisputed.

I should have left Martial Arts America a year before I did. On a personal training level I was treading water. I stayed only because of my committment to the students there.
I have moved on with my martial arts career and mtb should do the same.

I apologize to the members of Martial Talk for using this forum in this manner but I will defend myself in the place I was attacked.
For me it ends here.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Let me start out by saying that I'm defending the facts and not the person. Like Chad (dearnis) many of us who attended the seminar that Bates hosted heard Remy refer to Mike as Jr. Professor. I even saw it written on one of Mike's black belt diplomas.

Janice & I talked about this today to copare note and we both remember Remy addressing Mike as Prof on more than on occasion. On the other hand my name is Timothy James and Mike refers to me as TJ for short. Could this have been what Remy was doing? I don't know. I think we have talked about it enough and we should move on.

Mike, do what you want and use what ever title you feel comfortable using. In my case Remy awarded me Datu and I'm keeping it!

I am interested in where the bodies are barried. Maybe you can start an other thread on it. Do you know where Hoffa is?

[mtb]

sure do. david hoffa man is somewhere in the Northeast
sincerely,
the artist formerly know as.....
mtb

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by mtb

Sir,
I have gone to great lengths to dis-associate myself from those other individuals you've lumped me in with. I would appreciate it if you would refrain. Perhaps you should read my previous post again.
You do not know me nor have we ever met. I have been to just about every east coast function since 1989 and have yet to cross your path. You must of been too busy to attend a camp or a seminar. That's okay. Just a word of advice, you may want to think about supporting other folks before you ask for theirs
Trust me, one less instructor at your event is the best thing I could do for you.
mtb

This is the second time that you have made a nasty set of comments with regard to a question that I e-mailed to you...
do not make that mistake again.

As for how many seminars and/or camps that you have attended or hosted, that is your business and it has no relevance to my question. As far as "lumping" you with others, I specficly related it to the use of the term "professor" and pointed out that the use of the title usually draws comments, as has occured with you on this occassion. BTW, I like receiving words of advise from people who have good advise to give.... thanks. Now for a few words of advise for you:

1. Expect to get some heat from dedicated Modern Arnis players whenever you use "professor" in front of your name. You must prepared to teach and demonstrate at a much higher level than you curently are able to do, because the people your events have the right to expect you to be able to match in action, the implications that are associated the title.

2. Understand that my inviation to you *Was Not* a request for your support, which I do not need. The inviataion was offered as a courtesy because you were a close associate and friend of the late Professor. In addition, you have deemed it appropriate to add the title to your presentations of Presas style Modern Arnis. If I am going to invite a number of others to participate and present at the 2003 Symposium, then I should as a matter of good manners, offer you the same opportunity. Now that I done made the formal invitation and you have declined, I wish to thank you for informing me that you will not be on the program.

3. You may well be correct about me being better off without you in attendence, after all, I never saw you at any of the events that I sponsored for Professor from 1987 - 1994, in Buffalo, NY. In fact, I do not recall you ever being in Buffalo for any event invovling Professor Presas! Maybe TJ can correct me on that - but I never met you at anything in Buffalo!. Therefore your comments about supporting other folks before asking for support would seem to apply to you, equally well! I did host 12 seminars and 4 camps, begining before you got involved in Modern Arnis. And while not on the Atlantic Coast, Buffalo, is in the Northeast and we did advertise by both mail and magazines, the Buffalo events - perhaps you were too busy on the East Coast!

4. I have not change my mind about the idea of your situation with regard to having "master" as a title, however believe me when I say this, you are not a "professor"!

[mtb]

boy oh boy, you're no fun to play with
geez dr. b, if you knew me i think we'd be the best of friends.
I will still keep you on my holiday card list

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by mtb

boy oh boy, you're no fun to play with
geez dr. b, if you knew me i think we'd be the best of friends.
I will still keep you on my holiday card list

You are absolutely correct Michael, I am not any fun to play with!

[mtb]

is that right? are you a bills fan?

[Cruentus]

First of all....I'm not going to hammer you, I'm not going to hammer you, I'm am NOT going to hammer you...

...With this particular post. :D

Now, I have hammered people in the past. So, if I don't make myself clear here my post will be misconstrued. I said it three times, so please take this as an honsest query, not a loaded question, or an attempt to hammer.

I know you have done a lot to dis-associate yourself w/ JD's group, and I commend you for that. I am curious, however, as to why and how you got involved with them in the first place. How did you end up getting involved with them, anyhow? What was YOUR motive?

Now, I do apoligize in advance because I highly doubt I'll be able to check this forum again until Monday of next week. So, please understand that I'm not trying to start a fight that I won't be around to finish, but I am curious about the above, and I'll look at your answer eventually.

Respectfully,
Paul Janulis

:asian:

[mtb]

i wuz told to by a higher authority.

[mtb]

Perhaps a little know fact dear readers, is that my November 2000 seminar in Media, Pa was the very first up after the GMs illness. I was supposed to pick him up the Wed. before my seminar. He would have just gotten back from the European tour. Tunisia,hamburg,London, Venice was his last stop. He gave me $800 cash the month before, at his last Chicago camp. told me to have a many sweat shirts printed as I could,sell them when I was in London with him and to pay for my trip. When he finally called me from germany to tell me what i already knew, his question was curious. Would I still be holding my seminar without him??
"Prof," said I" tell me what to do". Apparently even at this critical period in his life, some folks had or were already jumping ship. One person cancelled a camp. He told me for the time being to have JD in and to give him the $$ etc. I sent the GM a check for $1265.00. That's the only reason I was in that "camp"
I hope this answers PJ's query. AsI had been since '89 I wuz doing what I was told. As I said to TJ. What do I care who's running the store as long as the GM signs off on it.
Rest assured readers, there's lots more than this. You think you've seen dirt on here?? Ain't seen nothing yet.
Next up:When the Masters of tapi-tapi were hatched!!

[Tapps]

Originally posted by mtb

Rest assured readers, there's lots more than this. You think you've seen dirt on here?? Ain't seen nothing yet.
Next up:When the Masters of tapi-tapi were hatched!!


I run off to get married and tune back in the middle of a cliffhanger.

Damn.

Did JD shoot JR ?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by mtb


Next up:When the Masters of tapi-tapi were hatched!!


Wasn't that a passing comment from the Chicago camp?

[dearnis.com]

I want to clarify something and add some things; my intial post post on this thread was not as well thought out as it should have been; to make the thought more concise... "I frequently heard Professor use the term Jr. Professor with Michael; I have not been in active contact with Michael since both he and I left the IMAF and can't comment on anything since then."
Second, Michael busted his @## to make the benefit seminar he mentioned above a big sucess.
Third, Michael consistently hosted events with Professor (and with other Modern Arnis instructors at Professor's direction) in the Philly area, and had been doing so long before I moved here.
Fourth, not to turn this into an IMAF debate, or to speak for Michael, but I suspect he was told, as I was told, "You help Jeffery."
Chad

[mtb]

TJ,
patience ,my boy.

[Rich Parsons]

MTB,

I would like to add to my previous statement.

If you wish to out of respect to the others to drop a title that Gm Remy Presas gave you then that is your privilege.

Although you could continue to use the title, in spite of everyone. Why you might ask? Every person using one or more of the following title of Datu, Senior Master, Professor, or Grand Master or even Master of Tapi Tapi have taken some heat at one time or another. My Recommendation is to take the heat and to come out of the fire stronger than before.

Just My Opinion

Best Wishes

Rich
:)

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by dearnis.com

I want to clarify something and add some things; my intial post post on this thread was not as well thought out as it should have been; to make the thought more concise... "I frequently heard Professor use the term Jr. Professor with Michael; I have not been in active contact with Michael since both he and I left the IMAF and can't comment on anything since then."
Second, Michael busted his @## to make the benefit seminar he mentioned above a big sucess.
Third, Michael consistently hosted events with Professor (and with other Modern Arnis instructors at Professor's direction) in the Philly area, and had been doing so long before I moved here.
Fourth, not to turn this into an IMAF debate, or to speak for Michael, but I suspect he was told, as I was told, "You help Jeffery."
Chad

Hello Chad,

I really do not think the topic of this thread has anything to do with whether or not MTB, was loyal to the late Professor Presas or even whether or not he was compelled to support Jeff Delaney, the major question was can and should he be using the title of "professor" in conjuction with the art of "Modern Arnis" in general and "Presas style Modern Arnis" in particular?

I have not qualms about his loyalty or that he hosted seminars and camps. That is all a matter of record - a good one at that!
However, he and anone else who wants to assume the title of "professor" and attaches it to "Modern Arnis" is going be be strongly questioned by a number of people who believe that there was only one and there will never be another 'Professor'
of Modern Arnis!

It is matter that is centered on 2 major points, personality and martial arts skills. Have you been able to indentify anyone who has both in ample abundance to make you feel that you could/ would support their use of the title?

There has been a lot of talk about titles and rank, but in the end doesn't all come down to ability? The titles and rank are paper oriented, but ability is both demonstrated and apparent when viewed by others. My goal for the 2003 Symposium is to give all of the instructors the opportunity to demonstate their Modern Arnis ability regardless of rank and title. There will be a good number of conversations, there will be time to discuss the similarities and differences in approaches, but the telling differences will be in ability and presentation. That is part of the reason that I invited MTB to be on the program - in short to show us that the title has been earned based on ability and not merely to disable an insulting association with a personal action. My invitation was genuine and I accept MTB's decision to decline as genuine, as well.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons

MTB,

I would like to add to my previous statement.

If you wish to out of respect to the others to drop a title that Gm Remy Presas gave you then that is your privilege.

Although you could continue to use the title, in spite of everyone. Why you might ask? Every person using one or more of the following title of Datu, Senior Master, Professor, or Grand Master or even Master of Tapi Tapi have taken some heat at one time or another. My Recommendation is to take the heat and to come out of the fire stronger than before.

Just My Opinion

Best Wishes

Rich
:)

Rich, that is easy advice to give, but it will be MTB, who has to take the heat for using the title, especially since the word
"Junior" is being omitted. The actual title was "Professor, Jr.",
or at least so it would appear from a couple of other posts. Secondly the title was given to offset and cancel a play on words.
I seriously doubt that MTB's use of punong, guro or a blending of the two titles would be inappropriate or challenged, as would the continued usage of the title "professor". Think about it for a few minutes before replying.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoctorB

Rich, that is easy advice to give, but it will be MTB, who has to take the heat for using the title, especially since the word
"Junior" is being omitted. The actual title was "Professor, Jr.",
or at least so it would appear from a couple of other posts. Secondly the title was given to offset and cancel a play on words.
I seriously doubt that MTB's use of punong, guro or a blending of the two titles would be inappropriate or challenged, as would the continued usage of the title "professor". Think about it for a few minutes before replying.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

DoctorB,

I did think on it. I even slept on it over night.

Who are these little whining cry babies, who get upset over a name. That is the first thing that comes to my mind. Yet, that is unfair, since many people called GM R. Presas, Professor out of respect and love and they cannot come to grips with calling someone else by the same name.

I think of this as the spoiled child who is in their twenties or older and gets upset at mom or dad for getting married again. How dare they try to replace someone, I cared so much about. Well, I do not think that Mr. Bates AKA Professor Junior Bates, is using the name to take over the world of Modern Arnis. If he is, then I wish him luck for there are already many groups that cannot get along and that would be one tough miracle to pull off.

Some people are still upset about the title of Grand Master, and those that are, do not associate themselves with anyone who uses that title in Modern Arnis. Yes there was heat, but has it resolved anything???? Did I not state that there would be heat, i.e. This thread.

Yet, the final decision has to be that of MTB, and no one else’s.
He has to live with that decision, not me, is true statement, but let us be honest, should he change is last name as an option? I think not!

I do agree the first time I heard the title in reference to MTB at a camp I was a little taken aback. And then someone had to point the problem, and then I said a logical solution has been given. :)

In My opinion, it is not for us to decide, but I would not want MTB to make a decision based upon some of my posts that would make him wonder, for it would always make me wonder. :(

To take this argument to the next level, I say we do not use the title of Lakan anymore either. I also think that we should not use the term Modern Arnis anymore. I do not think we should have red or black on any of our belts anymore. Any and all of these could have a special meaning to someone out there who might get offended. Note: This list is not complete it is only a quick small sample size for I do not wish to write everything I know that is dear to me about Modern Arnis or GM Remy Presas, nor do I wish to spend the rest of my life finding out what it is that everyone else wants on the list.


These are just my thoughts and opinions. And yes, I did think about them. Just because they do not agree with something you might think is the best practice, that does not mean they do not have any thought behind them. Even if I thought the use of the title is not the best practice, who am I to tell someone else how to present themselves.

Anotehr example might be the title of Doctor, the MD's do not like it when Ph. D's or Ed D or even D.O. which is the medical field are used as a sign of respect or status. They believe it to be a sign of here respect as Doctors of Medicine. So, to tell someone that they cannot use a name or title because someone else has used it, to me is not right. Now, that is for me, feel fine to disagree with me. It is your right to disagree with me.

With respect to those who train :asian:


(* Edited Commas and spelling *)

[Guro Harold]

Michael,

If the Professor gave you permission to use the title of "Professor" in the context of Modern Arnis, then it belongs to you. However, please forgive me if I do not use that title to personally address you.

You should know, however, that it is not a reflection of a lack of respect for you as a person nor question of what you have contributed to Modern Arnis or how you aided the Professor when he was sick.

Since GM Presas's death, there have been non-stop questions and discussions regarding the Professor's will, his intentions, MOTTs, WOTTS, and DOTTS, including this issue as well.

I wish you the best as you move on in the arts and best of luck for your seminar this weekend.

Best regards,

Palusut

[arnisador]

The use of a Modern Arnis title by anyone other than the Professor was unusual for most of the camps I was at--especially early on (even though some people had titles). The Professor himself wasn't offended if you called him 'Remy' off the mats. It's odd that we care so much about them now.

[bloodwood]

This all started with DoctorB reporting that he saw an ad in IKF magazine. Here is where the problem is. Stating your title while promoting a seminar in an international forum such as IKF where most of the people reading the magazine don't know who you are, and don't know that you dropped part of your title because it looks better and more impressive. Magazines don't care what you put in an ad, just as long as you pay. IKF is not the ethics police for Modren Arnis or any other style, but we the practitioners of the arts are. Maybe it is pettiness and political bs but it is a way to keep folks honest. Had the "Jr." been part of this ad, this thread probably would not exist.

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by bloodwood

This all started with DoctorB reporting that he saw an ad in IKF magazine. Here is where the problem is. Stating your title while promoting a seminar in an international forum such as IKF where most of the people reading the magazine don't know who you are, and don't know that you dropped part of your title because it looks better and more impressive. Magazines don't care what you put in an ad, just as long as you pay. IKF is not the ethics police for Modren Arnis or any other style, but we the practitioners of the arts are. Maybe it is pettiness and political bs but it is a way to keep folks honest. Had the "Jr." been part of this ad, this thread probably would not exist.

Hello Bloodwood,

Thanks for your input, you might have hit the nail dead center
with regard to the title containing the "already acknowledged" term "Jr.". I really can not say for sure because it did not happen that way...

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons

DoctorB,

I did think on it. I even slept on it over night.

Who are these little whining cry babies, who get upset over a name. That is the first thing that comes to my mind. Yet, that is unfair, since many people called GM R. Presas, Professor out of respect and love and they cannot come to grips with calling someone else by the same name.

I think of this as the spoiled child who is in their twenties or older and gets upset at mom or dad for getting married again. How dare they try to replace someone, I cared so much about. Well, I do not think that Mr. Bates AKA Professor Junior Bates, is using the name to take over the world of Modern Arnis. If he is, then I wish him luck for there are already many groups that cannot get along and that would be one tough miracle to pull off.

Some people are still upset about the title of Grand Master, and those that are, do not associate themselves with anyone who uses that title in Modern Arnis. Yes there was heat, but has it resolved anything???? Did I not state that there would be heat, i.e. This thread.

Yet, the final decision has to be that of MTB, and no one else’s.
He has to live with that decision, not me, is true statement, but let us be honest, should he change is last name as an option? I think not!

I do agree the first time I heard the title in reference to MTB at a camp I was a little taken aback. And then someone had to point the problem, and then I said a logical solution has been given. :)

In My opinion, it is not for us to decide, but I would not want MTB to make a decision based upon some of my posts that would make him wonder, for it would always make me wonder. :(

To take this argument to the next level, I say we do not use the title of Lakan anymore either. I also think that we should not use the term Modern Arnis anymore. I do not think we should have red or black on any of our belts anymore. Any and all of these could have a special meaning to someone out there who might get offended. Note: This list is not complete it is only a quick small sample size for I do not wish to write everything I know that is dear to me about Modern Arnis or GM Remy Presas, nor do I wish to spend the rest of my life finding out what it is that everyone else wants on the list.


These are just my thoughts and opinions. And yes, I did think about them. Just because they do not agree with something you might think is the best practice, that does not mean they do not have any thought behind them. Even if I thought the use of the title is not the best practice, who am I to tell someone else how to present themselves.

Anotehr example might be the title of Doctor, the MD's do not like it when Ph. D's or Ed D or even D.O. which is the medical field are used as a sign of respect or status. They believe it to be a sign of here respect as Doctors of Medicine. So, to tell someone that they cannot use a name or title because someone else has used it, to me is not right. Now, that is for me, feel fine to disagree with me. It is your right to disagree with me.

With respect to those who train :asian:


(* Edited Commas and spelling *)

Hello Rich,

Thanks for your reply; I have some other thoughts on what you have osted, but better stated ina face to face to avoid misunderstandings and perhaps problems coming from others, not you or I.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoctorB

Hello Rich,

Thanks for your reply; I have some other thoughts on what you have osted, but better stated ina face to face to avoid misunderstandings and perhaps problems coming from others, not you or I.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

DoctorB,

That is not a problem. And I think I understand why?

When we meet next time . :)

We can discuss this and many more issues.

Rich
:asian:

[Cruentus]

Thanks for your response, and I think I understand. I respect you doing what you were told, and I can relate.

When Prof. was in his final days, there was a lot of chaos. A lot of things were said and done that might come back to haunt people later. What is important now is how we move foward. Getting answers to our past always helps us to do just that. :D

TAPPS: Welcome back! Next time I'm in Buffalo I'll have to bring my lady to occupy yours. That way we can go to the Canadian Ballet without interuption! :p

PAUL

[Tapps]

Hey Paul,

Thanks for the welcome.

Sounds like a good Plan.
;) :D :D :D ;)

[David Hoffman]

I've just come across this old thread while perusing this forum. I wish I had seen it earlier as I could have responded then. As it was left unsettled I feel obligated to respond.

Actually both Doctor Barber and Professor Bates are correct and there is no need for any dispute between them. Doctor Barber absolutely was active with Professor during the period he lists above. In fact, Doctor Barber was one of the most active promoter/students during that time. I know this for a fact as Professor had me send many correspondences in his name to Doctor Barber from our address at 30 Mason Street. I know that Professor held Jerome in the highest regard. I never heard otherwise, even after the split that Doctor Barber has recounted.

The same is also true of Michael Bates, Michael became especially active with Professor in the late nineties just as Michael has recounted. Professor did indeed consider Michael a friend and enjoyed his many stays with him. Both Professor Michael Bates and Doctor Barber were very active with Professor, though perhaps at different times, and he held both of you in very high esteem indeed!

That you never crossed paths is very common in Modern Arnis. There are very few people who travelled to many seminars, most, if not all, made their contribution in their own region. This does not reflect poorly on their contribution or depth of knowledge. There are very few people in Modern Arnis that I saw at seminars in different regions. As I recollect, in the whole East and Middle Northern United States the only people I recall seeing in multiple regions are Tim Hartman and Chuck Guass. Travelling was not a prerequisite to being a serious student.

Also the announcement made by Professor was just as Michael said, but as I recall it was made at his school not the location he mentioned. But that is a small and irrelevant point. In fact, it was my suggestion to Professor that he give the title to Michael. We were more looking at his karate martial arts title in general, not in the context of Modern Arnis as at the time he was not yet high ranking. I was driving with Professor from Atlantic city were we spent some days on vacation during a seminar tour that started in Northern New England. I would often recommend people for consideration to the International Board and other things I thought would benefit them. In this case, Professor really liked Michael, as did I, and Professor had his eye on him as someone who showed enthusiasm for promoting the art. So yes, I suggested the idea which we discussed and Professor took under advisement. Later, when we had arrived at Michaels school and witnessed a grading test, Professor did indeed make the announcement that Michael was to be called Professor Bates. He later added as an aside that this was Professor JG, or Junior Grade as used in the military. However, the announcement was Professor Bates, the JG was more of an afterthought by Professor, sort of an inside joke. Certainly Michael is entitled to use the title he was given. Michael went on to become an important friend and senior instructor. He does not deserve the scrutiny and criticism he has received above. Michael did just as he said, he followed the wishes of his (our) GrandMaster. The same is true of Doctor Barber during his active period. Both deserve our respect for their achievements in Modern Arnis and deserve each others respect! Professor never did anything to intentionally hurt his students, I understand that emotions run high on this issue as I have posted elsewhere, but I am absolutely certain that Professor would been hurt by this bashing of Michael Bates, his good friend!

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by David Hoffman
I've just come across this old thread while perusing this forum. I wish I had seen it earlier as I could have responded then. As it was left unsettled I feel obligated to respond.

Actually both Doctor Barber and Professor Bates are correct and there is no need for any dispute between them. Doctor Barber absolutely was active with Professor during the period he lists above. In fact, Doctor Barber was one of the most active promoter/students during that time. I know this for a fact as Professor had me send many correspondences in his name to Doctor Barber from our address at 30 Mason Street. I know that Professor held Jerome in the highest regard. I never heard otherwise, even after the split that Doctor Barber has recounted.

The same is also true of Michael Bates, Michael became especially active with Professor in the late nineties just as Michael has recounted. Professor did indeed consider Michael a friend and enjoyed his many stays with him. Both Professor Michael Bates and Doctor Barber were very active with Professor, though perhaps at different times, and he held both of you in very high esteem indeed!

That you never crossed paths is very common in Modern Arnis. There are very few people who travelled to many seminars, most, if not all, made their contribution in their own region. This does not reflect poorly on their contribution or depth of knowledge. There are very few people in Modern Arnis that I saw at seminars in different regions. As I recollect, in the whole East and Middle Northern United States the only people I recall seeing in multiple regions are Tim Hartman and Chuck Guass. Travelling was not a prerequisite to being a serious student.

Also the announcement made by Professor was just as Michael said, but as I recall it was made at his school not the location he mentioned. But that is a small and irrelevant point. In fact, it was my suggestion to Professor that he give the title to Michael. We were more looking at his karate martial arts title in general, not in the context of Modern Arnis as at the time he was not yet high ranking. I was driving with Professor from Atlantic city were we spent some days on vacation during a seminar tour that started in Northern New England. I would often recommend people for consideration to the International Board and other things I thought would benefit them. In this case, Professor really liked Michael, as did I, and Professor had his eye on him as someone who showed enthusiasm for promoting the art. So yes, I suggested the idea which we discussed and Professor took under advisement. Later, when we had arrived at Michaels school and witnessed a grading test, Professor did indeed make the announcement that Michael was to be called Professor Bates. He later added as an aside that this was Professor JG, or Junior Grade as used in the military. However, the announcement was Professor Bates, the JG was more of an afterthought by Professor, sort of an inside joke. Certainly Michael is entitled to use the title he was given. Michael went on to become an important friend and senior instructor. He does not deserve the scrutiny and criticism he has received above. Michael did just as he said, he followed the wishes of his (our) GrandMaster. The same is true of Doctor Barber during his active period. Both deserve our respect for their achievements in Modern Arnis and deserve each others respect! Professor never did anything to intentionally hurt his students, I understand that emotions run high on this issue as I have posted elsewhere, but I am absolutely certain that Professor would been hurt by this bashing of Michael Bates, his good friend!

Thank you for your kind words, David.

In reading your post, I can agree with what you have stated, particularly about the traveling to seminars as not being the indicator of being a serious student. It all comes back to skills for me.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.