A question on names.

[Bob Hubbard]

A recent conversation I had reminded me of this point : "Hatsumi changed the name of the art from Ninjutsu to "Budo Taijutsu" because of the negative image the ninja portray" and suggested that a way to keep things more on track might be to rename this section.

Other than Ninjutsu, is there a common, well known term to describe the art used by BujinKan, Genbukan and JinenKan?

Would doing this help remove problem areas and allow this section to function with minimal issues?

[mrhnau]

A recent conversation I had reminded me of this point : "Hatsumi changed the name of the art from Ninjutsu to "Budo Taijutsu" because of the negative image the ninja portray" and suggested that a way to keep things more on track might be to rename this section.

Other than Ninjutsu, is there a common, well known term to describe the art used by BujinKan, Genbukan and JinenKan?

Would doing this help remove problem areas and allow this section to function with minimal issues?
Budo would be a bit too general. What about Ninpo?

The only problem that might cause is that while the term ninjutsu might have a negative image, terms like budo or ninpo might not be clear to alot of individuals. Ninjutsu is less ambiguous.

[Bob Hubbard]

Aren't Budo and Ninpo also used by other groups, some of which don't fit the X-Kan definition?

[mrhnau]

Aren't Budo and Ninpo also used by other groups, some of which don't fit the X-Kan definition?
Yes, but ninjutsu is used by groups other than the X-kan's. The term X-kan is established, and might be a legit handle for use, but you again deal with the term being not too well known.

*scratches head* I dunno how you can seperate the X-kans from groups like Koga, SKH, et al by using traditional ninjutsu terms...

[Bigshadow]

Aren't Budo and Ninpo also used by other groups, some of which don't fit the X-Kan definition?

I don't know about others using Ninpo, but I believe budo is a very broad and generic term for warrior way. I think there are several Japanese arts that would be considered budo. At least that is what I understood budo to be. I wonder if budo is a term normally applied to koryu arts?

FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koryu

[Brian R. VanCise]

What about X-Kan Discussion Forum?

[shesulsa]

How about just removing the word Ninjutsu from the title of this forum and adding at the end "- X-kans" ?

[mrhnau]

How about just removing the word Ninjutsu from the title of this forum and adding at the end "- X-kans" ?

That might work... how about creating a non-X-kan section then? Perhaps w/ a non-bashing rule... Could include what some consider "Traditional" ryu that don't comfortably fit into the X-kans

[saru1968]

Budo Taijutsu?

or Takamatsuden Budo?

or Takamatsu Budo Taijutsu?

[LuzRD]

"X-Kan Ninpo, BujinKan, Genbukan and JinenKan arts" as the section name.

and below the section name where there is currently a definition of Ninjutsu (a rather large definition at that :) ) go into greater detail about what is actually appropriate for the section.

after looking again at the way its setup now i think that somthing like the following would do the trick...

"X-Kan Ninpo, BujinKan, Genbukan and JinenKan arts (this would be the actual link)

(the body) Ninpo - Traditional Ryu Discussions
Lit. Translation: "Nin" Perseverance/Endurance "jutsu" Techniques (of). Surrounded by much controversy, today's "ninjutsu" is derived from the traditional fighting arts associated with the Iga/Koga region of Japan. These arts include both "bujutsu" ryuha (martial technique systems) and "ninjutsu" ryuha, which involve a broad base of training designed to prepare the practitioner for all possible situations.

Over 70 different "ninjutsu ryu" have been catalogued/identified, however, the majority of them have died out. Most were developed around a series of specific skills and techniques and when the skills of a particular ryu were no longer in demand, the ryu would (usually) fade from existence. The three remaining ninjutsu ryu (Togakure ryu, Gyokushin ryu, and Kumogakure ryu) are encompassed in Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi's Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu system. These ryu, along with six other "bujutsu ryu" (Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, Gikan Ryu and Kukishinden Ryu), are taught as a collective body of knowledge (see Sub-Styles for other info).

This forum is for the discussion of the X-Kan families. They are: BujinKan, Genbukan and JinenKan. They are all decended from the Bujinkan organization of Hatsumi Sensei. Discussions not related to these should go in Ninjutsu General for now.""~~~~~~~~~

i know it still says Ninjutsu in the body however its not nearly as dominant IMHO

[Brian R. VanCise]

Truthfully after thinking it through I would prefer :

Takamatsuden Arts - X-Kans : Budo Taijutsu, Genbukan, Jinekan

That would be a very, very good heading.

[Cryozombie]

Truthfully after thinking it through I would prefer :

Takamatsuden Arts - X-Kans : Budo Taijutsu, Genbukan, Jinekan

That would be a very, very good heading.

I like this as well.

[Cryozombie]

The term X-kan is established, and might be a legit handle for use, but you again deal with the term being not too well known.


And therein lies the idea... lets keep the "I done teached myself to be a ninja in my basement" crowd away...

[Bigshadow]

Truthfully after thinking it through I would prefer :

Takamatsuden Arts - X-Kans : Budo Taijutsu, Genbukan, Jinekan

That would be a very, very good heading.

Brian, that is a very good one! I really like that. As an afterthought....


Takamatsuden Arts - X-Kans : Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinekan

[Bigshadow]

How about just removing the word Ninjutsu from the title of this forum and adding at the end "- X-kans" ?


Pulling the word Ninjutsu would be great in my opinion. I really like what Brian came up with, with the exception of not naming Bujinkan. If we are going to name the other two, we should name the Bujinkan, IMO.

[shesulsa]

Truthfully after thinking it through I would prefer :

Takamatsuden Arts - X-Kans : Budo Taijutsu, Genbukan, Jinekan

That would be a very, very good heading.
I like that MUCH better!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Pulling the word Ninjutsu would be great in my opinion. I really like what Brian came up with, with the exception of not naming Bujinkan. If we are going to name the other two, we should name the Bujinkan, IMO.


Hey Dave shows what happens when you are thinking on the fly:

Takamatsuden Arts - X-Kans : Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Genbukan, Jinekan

or

Takamatsuden Arts - X-Kans : Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinekan

The first one is my choice but the second one works great as well!

[Don Roley]

I have to disagree with the idea of a new name.

First of all, a lot of people still think of groups like the Bujinkan from books by Hayes and such that use the term "ninjutsu" as part of the title. They would have trouble hooking up with the right art if the name was dropped.

Second, the Bujinkan has moved away from the use of the term ninjutsu- but what about groups like the Genbukan? They seem to be quite satisfied with the use of the term ninpo and yet all the people chiming in seem to be from the Bujinkan.

Last, If I were to translate a lot of stuff on the fighting techniques of the Koga ryu, Negoro ryu or another dead ninjutsu art I think most of the posters here would be interested in reading it. And yet I don't think it would be appropriate in a forum that indicates it is exclusively for Bujinkan, etc.

Oh- and "X-kans" is not used in Japan. It was coined by an American. I think the same is true of the term "Takamatsu-den." At least, I don't recal reading the term or hearing it here in Japan. It might cause some problem with the Bujinkan members posting here if they were part of the title.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have to disagree with the idea of a new name.

First of all, a lot of people still think of groups like the Bujinkan from books by Hayes and such that use the term "ninjutsu" as part of the title. They would have trouble hooking up with the right art if the name was dropped.

Second, the Bujinkan has moved away from the use of the term ninjutsu- but what about groups like the Genbukan? They seem to be quite satisfied with the use of the term ninpo and yet all the people chiming in seem to be from the Bujinkan.

Last, If I were to translate a lot of stuff on the fighting techniques of the Koga ryu, Negoro ryu or another dead ninjutsu art I think most of the posters here would be interested in reading it. And yet I don't think it would be appropriate in a forum that indicates it is exclusively for Bujinkan, etc.

Oh- and "X-kans" is not used in Japan. It was coined by an American. I think the same is true of the term "Takamatsu-den." At least, I don't recal reading the term or hearing it here in Japan. It might cause some problem with the Bujinkan members posting here if they were part of the title.

Hey Don that is very good input and definately we want this forum to be vibrant and with lots of input from people in Japan and around the world.

[Don Roley]

Ok, let me explain and expand.

The term "-den" is thought by many to mean "the transmissions of." But closer translation IMO would be "As transmited by."

The latter has as an assumption that there are other things with similar background and the same name that needs to be differentiated.

I have been wracking my brain in my free time for the last few hours and the only time I can remember the term "Takamatsu-den" used in Japan was in an article about Japanese bojutsu. There are groups that teach Kukishin ryu bojutsu in Japan that have the same lineage up to about a century ago but do not claim to have learned anything from Takamatsu. Their lineage lists them learning from the guys that taught Takamatsu. So in this article they listed different ways of training and such and used the terms Takamatsu den to differentiate with the group down south.

So for Takagi and Kukishin, you can probably hear the term used.

But I have never heard of anyone (credible- internet freaks don't count) who claims to have learned the Koto ryu, Gyokko ryu, etc that did not trace what they do back to Takamatsu. So there is no Takamatsu den when discussing it because there is nothing outside of what Takamatsu taught to compare it to. You can talk about Koto ryu, Ueno den because there is a group that teaches it and traces themselves back to a guy named Ueno- who learned it from Takamatsu. But not Takamatsu den.

And the use of the term is quite often avoided by people within the tradition. In some cases there is no problem with different groups using the same name for their tradition due to an accident preventing a clear trasfer of authority. In most of the cases I am aware of though, there is a hell of a lot of bad feelings over other groups using names they are not entitled to in the opinion of the other group. To an outsider just trying to compare different branches (like the article I mentioned) it is not a big deal. But some of you can remember the whole blow up over one of Hatsumi's former students giving out certificates with the Kukishin ryu name on it. The same dynamics kind of make it dangerous to assume that others will smile when you lump the guys they think are ripping off their name in with them. They may not scream in public, but they do remember these types of things.

So I do not think I can recall many cases where someone inside the tradition has used the term -den to refer to what they do. If you try to refer to the guys doing Ueno den Koto ryu by that name, you may get a very terse lecture as to why they think that they are the only one's with the right to use the term Koto ryu. It is not a term I would advise anyone in the Bujinkan to get used to if they want to tread carefully.

[Bigshadow]

Don, you certainly bring up some important points to consider. Your opinion is to leave it as it is?

[Monadnock]

A recent conversation I had reminded me of this point : "Hatsumi changed the name of the art from Ninjutsu to "Budo Taijutsu" because of the negative image the ninja portray" and suggested that a way to keep things more on track might be to rename this section.

Other than Ninjutsu, is there a common, well known term to describe the art used by BujinKan, Genbukan and JinenKan?

There are many arts taught by these schools. I do not think any one name could collectively summarize it.


Would doing this help remove problem areas and allow this section to function with minimal issues?

Perhaps if the term Ninjutsu was removed, there would be less newbies quick to jump in and get squashed.



I was looking at the list of forums in the JMA section:

Japanese Martial Arts - General
Aikido
Jujutsu / Judo
Karate
Ninjutsu - General Discussion
Ninjutsu - Traditional Ryu Discussions
JMA From Around the Web

I think having 2 Ninjutsu forums makes the JMA section look too Ninjutsu centric. And as far as I know, there are no Ninjutsu schools out there. There are schools that may have elements of Ninjutsu in them, but other than using it (or Ninpo) in some of the names, it is not the sole focus of the school.

I think the 2 Ninjutsu forums would be better merged into one, named after the 3 organizations. The -kan prefix is also misleading because there are many other organizations out there that use -kan in their name.

My .02

[Brian R. VanCise]

There are many arts taught by these schools. I do not think any one name could collectively summarize it.



Perhaps if the term Ninjutsu was removed, there would be less newbies quick to jump in and get squashed.



I was looking at the list of forums in the JMA section:

Japanese Martial Arts - General
Aikido
Jujutsu / Judo
Karate
Ninjutsu - General Discussion
Ninjutsu - Traditional Ryu Discussions
JMA From Around the Web

I think having 2 Ninjutsu forums makes the JMA section look too Ninjutsu centric. And as far as I know, there are no Ninjutsu schools out there. There are schools that may have elements of Ninjutsu in them, but other than using it (or Ninpo) in some of the names, it is not the sole focus of the school.

I think the 2 Ninjutsu forums would be better merged into one, named after the 3 organizations. The -kan prefix is also misleading because there are many other organizations out there that use -kan in their name.

My .02

We actually did have just one Ninjutsu forum and just recently split them to facilitate good discussion rather than evey inane question coming into the Traditional section.

I am definately interested in what Don pointed out. Those were some very, very good points.

[George Kohler]

A recent conversation I had reminded me of this point : "Hatsumi changed the name of the art from Ninjutsu to "Budo Taijutsu" because of the negative image the ninja portray" and suggested that a way to keep things more on track might be to rename this section.

Other than Ninjutsu, is there a common, well known term to describe the art used by BujinKan, Genbukan and JinenKan?

Would doing this help remove problem areas and allow this section to function with minimal issues?

1. Hatsumi Sensei did not call it "Ninjutsu" as far as I recall. Matter of fact, my bujinkan shodan rank was for "Ninpo Taijutsu"

2. I prefer using the name "Ninpo Taijutsu" or just plain "Ninpo" instead of X-kan or Takamatsu-den.

[Shizen Shigoku]

I say just leave it. No need to over-complicate things.
"ninjutsu" while not 100% accurate is a fine, long-standing nickname and it serves the purpose.

How about after enough people make alternate suggestions, someone make a poll and we'll all vote?

[saru1968]

'The Art formally know as Ninjutsu'


I quite like Ninpo.

[Bujingodai]

Does it matter? The same people will be posting there and the same schools will be accepted to post there.

[Rubber Tanto]

I'm one for Ninpo Taijutsu also.

[Don Roley]

I prefer using the name "Ninpo Taijutsu" or just plain "Ninpo" instead of X-kan or Takamatsu-den.

I think I will join Saru1968 and Rubber Tanto in supporting your idea as well.