I have just read the September issue of Black Belt magazine, and I have a question regarding the article about Shorinji Kempo.
The article states that Doshin So lived, worked and trained in China. It says that he trained with a Shaolin master named Wen Laoshi. It goes on to say that Doshin So was permitted to succeed Laoshi as the 21st master of NORTHERN SHORINJI GIWAMONKEN SCHOOL.

My question is this, if the school is in China, founded by a Chinese person, why on earth would it have a Japanese name?

Surely as a Chinese system, it would be called either ShaoLin, or Sil Lum.

Of course this then leads to questioning the authenticity of systems called Chinese or Shaolin Kempo. Because Kempo is the Okinawan/ Japanese word, shouldn't these systems called Chinese or Shaolin Chuan Fa?

Any thoughts....

--Dave

Hello Mr. Cobb,

It is definitely questionable when you see someone mix a language from one country with an art from another. I've seen this alot when someone "make up" a lineage or founds a "new" art.

I didn't read the article, but it only seems that someone would change the Chinese name to Japanese, if the lineage was passed through Japan or a Japanese instructor.

R. McLain

If this were the case then, that he changed the name from the Chinese name to the Japanese name, wouldn't he then become the 1st Grandmaster of the Japanese style, instead of 21st Grandmaster of the Chinese style?

--Dave:asian:

Hello,

Well, not really. Just another language for the same terminology - as long as he doesn't claim to have created anything new.

One of the Masters in my lineage, Byung In Yoon, studied Chinese Chuan-fa in Manchuria during the 1920's & 1930's. When he returned to Korea in 1945, he used the Korean term, "Kwon Bup" to describe the art. "Kwon Bup" is the Korean translation for Chuan-fa - in English it's "Fist method." Byung In Yoon didn't claim to teach anything new, but preferred to preserve what he learned from China.

I suppose the terminology can get into a sticky debate, but I think it really comes down to the intentions of the person that makes the name change.

There are so many people making false claims and "creating new styles" in the world that a name change, as mentioned in your first post above, is a natural "red flag" that something is wrong or false, though it is not always the case.

Sincerely,

Robert McLain

Originally posted by D.Cobb
I have just read the September issue of Black Belt magazine, and I have a question regarding the article about Shorinji Kempo.
The article states that Doshin So lived, worked and trained in China. It says that he trained with a Shaolin master named Wen Laoshi. It goes on to say that Doshin So was permitted to succeed Laoshi as the 21st master of NORTHERN SHORINJI GIWAMONKEN SCHOOL.

My question is this, if the school is in China, founded by a Chinese person, why on earth would it have a Japanese name?

Surely as a Chinese system, it would be called either ShaoLin, or Sil Lum.

Of course this then leads to questioning the authenticity of systems called Chinese or Shaolin Kempo. Because Kempo is the Okinawan/ Japanese word, shouldn't these systems called Chinese or Shaolin Chuan Fa?

Any thoughts....

--Dave
Simple. "Giwamonken" is the Japanese translation of the Chinese name. We don't say "Shaolin" because we are a Japanese art, founded by a Japanese national. We wear dogi, not Chinese clothes, and all our terminology--technical terms, instructions, etc.--are in Japanese. The name itself, Shorinji Kempo, is the Japanese reading of the Chinese "Shaolin Ssu Chuan'fa".
HTH.

Originally posted by D.Cobb
If this were the case then, that he changed the name from the Chinese name to the Japanese name, wouldn't he then become the 1st Grandmaster of the Japanese style, instead of 21st Grandmaster of the Chinese style?

--Dave:asian:
The Chinese Giwamonken school no longer exists; its systems live on in the Giwaken family of techniques and Embu of Shorinji Kempo.
I'm starting to think this may be a troll, Mr. Cobb...

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
The Chinese Giwamonken school no longer exists; its systems live on in the Giwaken family of techniques and Embu of Shorinji Kempo.
I'm starting to think this may be a troll, Mr. Cobb...

No Sir, no troll. Just someone who likes to learn by asking questions, rather than make assumptions.

Here is what I don't understand, in your previous post you said,
"Giwamonken" is the Japanese translation of the Chinese name

But in this post you state that The Chinese Giwamonken school no longer exists Thereby intimating that Giwamonken is in fact the Chinese term.

Which then brings me back to my original question, which was,
I have just read the September issue of Black Belt magazine, and I have a question regarding the article about Shorinji Kempo.
The article states that Doshin So lived, worked and trained in China. It says that he trained with a Shaolin master named Wen Laoshi. It goes on to say that Doshin So was permitted to succeed Laoshi as the 21st master of NORTHERN SHORINJI GIWAMONKEN SCHOOL.

My question is this, if the school is in China, founded by a Chinese person, why on earth would it have a Japanese name?

And my question directly applies to the actual term as used in the Black Belt article, I actually had the mag on my lap as I typed that question originally.

I'm assuming(which is probably a bad thing to do) that the Japanese translation would be "Giwaken". Now from what was written, I would assume that the original name may have been something like NORTHERN SHAOLIN GIWAMONKEN SCHOOL. Which would then change via translation to Shorinji Giwaken or something along those lines.
I guess the reason I find it so hard to understand is, from the western perspective, all the different styles keep their respective names, even if we westerners know the English Translation.
You know, GOJU means Hard/ Soft. JUDO means Soft Way, stuff like that, so how come the 21st Grandmaster of a Chinese Style, obviously steeped in tradition, would see fit to change the name.

And my next question in that same vein would then be, if he was indeed the 21st GM of the NSGS, and then decided to change the name, wouldn't he then become the 1st GM of Shorinji Kempo, or what ever the full name of the system is now.

Please understand, I wish no offense by this line of questioning, I just wish to learn.

I hope this makes my agenda clearer to you...

--Dave


:asian:

Originally posted by D.Cobb
But in this post you state that Thereby intimating that Giwamonken is in fact the Chinese term.

Which then brings me back to my original question
I can't speak Chinese, and in Shorinji Kempo, all terminology is in Japanese, so I will always stick to that. If it helps "giwamondan" is the Japanese for the Boxers.
Originally posted by D.Cobb
I'm assuming(which is probably a bad thing to do) that the Japanese translation would be "Giwaken".
Giwaken is the name of a family of techniques within Shorinji Kempo, like Tennoken, Nioken, and Ryuoken.
Originally posted by D.Cobb
Now from what was written, I would assume that the original name may have been something like NORTHERN SHAOLIN GIWAMONKEN SCHOOL.
Kita Shorinji Giwamonken. You're mixing Japanese and Chinese.
Originally posted by D.Cobb
I guess the reason I find it so hard to understand is, from the western perspective, all the different styles keep their respective names, even if we westerners know the English Translation.
You know, GOJU means Hard/ Soft. JUDO means Soft Way, stuff like that, so how come the 21st Grandmaster of a Chinese Style, obviously steeped in tradition, would see fit to change the name.
He didn't "change the name"; as a Japanese, he simply pronounced the characters as they are read in Japanese. For the same reason, Osaka is called "Daiban" in Chinese.
Originally posted by D.Cobb
And my next question in that same vein would then be, if he was indeed the 21st GM of the NSGS, and then decided to change the name, wouldn't he then become the 1st GM of Shorinji Kempo, or what ever the full name of the system is now..
Shorinji Kempo is a completely new art that Kaiso started in 1947. He isn't called "Soke" because Shorinji Kempo is not an iemoto system. Kaiso became the 21st head of the Giwamonken school, but didn't teach Giwamonken, which is why the art is now defunct. Instead, Kaiso returned to Japan, and codified the Giwamonken with all the other arts he had learned, to create a new art: Shorinji Kempo.
If you have any mroe questions, feel free.

What does this mean?

Originally posted by arnisador
What does this mean?
The iemoto system, from which the word "soke" derives, in which arts are passed through household lineages from master to apprentice.

Like Mr. Kehoe explained, the name of the system was not changed, it is just pronounced in a different way in Japanese. Besides So Doshin's Martial arts background was largely in Hakkoryu Jujutsu and ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do (with Kaiso Masayoshi Kori Hisataka). He then added teachings of Zen Buddhism to his MA training with some knowledge picked up in China.

In any case Shorinji Kempo is a fine balanced art with a strong lineage and techniques.

By the way, one of the uke in the Black Belt Magazine article, Sammy Briggs, is my senior in Shinkendo and Aikido. A fine martial artist and a Los Angeles police officer. He is very fond of his Shorinji Kempo teacher, Kuramoto Sensei.

Salute,

Gassho, Peter.
I know Sammy very well from world Taikai here in Japan.
I'd just like to point out, however, that your handle is not Japanese. I know where you're coming from, because if we say Kareteka and Aikidoka, then a practitioner of Kempo must be a Kempoka, right?
Unfortunately, "-ka" as a suffix to denote an exponent of something can only be used if the art in question is a "-do", as in Aikido or Iaido. If Karate appears to be an exception, it isn't; remember that it's short for Karatedo. (Although I had one teacher at Kyoto University who was a stickler for grammar and maintained that "karateka" was wrong; you should always say, "karatedoka".)
By contrast, a practitioner of Kempo is called a Kenshi.
HTH.
Kesshu.

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Gassho, Peter.
I know Sammy very well from world Taikai here in Japan.
I'd just like to point out, however, that your handle is not Japanese. I know where you're coming from, because if we say Kareteka and Aikidoka, then a practitioner of Kempo must be a Kempoka, right?
Unfortunately, "-ka" as a suffix to denote an exponent of something can only be used if the art in question is a "-do", as in Aikido or Iaido. If Karate appears to be an exception, it isn't; remember that it's short for Karatedo. (Although I had one teacher at Kyoto University who was a stickler for grammar and maintained that "karateka" was wrong; you should always say, "karatedoka".)
By contrast, a practitioner of Kempo is called a Kenshi.
HTH.
Kesshu. Thank you Tony for the explanation on the usage of "Ka". I am aware of the proper usage but unfortunately in the west "Kenshi" is not recognizable. Most relate to the usage of Karate-ka and Kenpoka. How about "Kenpi"?

Domo Arigato....

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Thank you Tony for the explanation on the usage of "Ka". I am aware of the proper usage but unfortunately in the west "Kenshi" is not recognizable. Most relate to the usage of Karate-ka and Kenpoka. How about "Kenpi"?
Domo Arigato....
Surely then it's incumbent upon us to educate them? Misuse of non-Japanese like "kempoka" and "gi" set my teeth on edge. Correct use will, over time, raise people's awareness and the correct term will come to be used naturally.
Do itashimashite...
:soapbox:

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
I can't speak Chinese, and in Shorinji Kempo, all terminology is in Japanese, so I will always stick to that. If it helps "giwamondan" is the Japanese for the Boxers.

Giwaken is the name of a family of techniques within Shorinji Kempo, like Tennoken, Nioken, and Ryuoken.

Kita Shorinji Giwamonken. You're mixing Japanese and Chinese.

He didn't "change the name"; as a Japanese, he simply pronounced the characters as they are read in Japanese. For the same reason, Osaka is called "Daiban" in Chinese.

Shorinji Kempo is a completely new art that Kaiso started in 1947. He isn't called "Soke" because Shorinji Kempo is not an iemoto system. Kaiso became the 21st head of the Giwamonken school, but didn't teach Giwamonken, which is why the art is now defunct. Instead, Kaiso returned to Japan, and codified the Giwamonken with all the other arts he had learned, to create a new art: Shorinji Kempo.
If you have any mroe questions, feel free.

Thank you, that explains everything. It was worth the wait.
--Dave

:asian:

See, I told you I'm not a troll!
:)

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Like Mr. Kehoe explained, the name of the system was not changed, it is just pronounced in a different way in Japanese. Besides So Doshin's Martial arts background was largely in Hakkoryu Jujutsu and ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do (with Kaiso Masayoshi Kori Hisataka). He then added teachings of Zen Buddhism to his MA training with some knowledge picked up in China.

In any case Shorinji Kempo is a fine balanced art with a strong lineage and techniques.

By the way, one of the uke in the Black Belt Magazine article, Sammy Briggs, is my senior in Shinkendo and Aikido. A fine martial artist and a Los Angeles police officer. He is very fond of his Shorinji Kempo teacher, Kuramoto Sensei.

Salute,

Hey, don't get me wrong, I wasn't bagging the system or the practitioners. All I have seen of either is in magazines. I don't even have an opinion of these things, because I havent been up close and personal yet.

If my wordings gave the impression that I was bagging either, then I apologize, it was not my intent.

--Dave

:asian:

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Surely then it's incumbent upon us to educate them? Misuse of non-Japanese like "kempoka" and "gi" set my teeth on edge. Correct use will, over time, raise people's awareness and the correct term will come to be used naturally.
Do itashimashite...
:soapbox:

Actually we did for a while have a gentleman on this BB that attempted to educate those of us who would listen, but unfortunately he is no longer on here, so feel free to educate.:)

By the way, what is KENPI?

--Dave

Originally posted by D.Cobb
By the way, what is KENPI?
I think it's meant to be "kenshi": a practitioner of kempo.

One often hears Kenpoka for a practititioner of American Kenpo--I suspect that that's part of where we get Kempoka in the West.

Originally posted by arnisador
One often hears Kenpoka for a practititioner of American Kenpo--I suspect that that's part of where we get Kempoka in the West.
And it's still completely wrong. It's not a Japanese word.

Does this mean I need to change my Psuedonym?

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Does this mean I need to change my Psuedonym?
Up to you, but know that you mark yourself out as not knowing any Japanese every time you log on.

Yes, but only visitors to this thread will know.

We've had this discussion before (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5350) as jujitsu vs. jujutsu. Like it or not, the former is an accepted term in the States, even if the latter should be the term that's used.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Yes, but only visitors to this thread will know.
What does that matter? Surely it's better to be accurate for its own sake?

Originally posted by arnisador
We've had this discussion before (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5350) as jujitsu vs. jujutsu. Like it or not, the former is an accepted term in the States, even if the latter should be the term that's used.
When you say "like it or not", you're implying that the people who frequent this board can't improve their knowledge, and start using the correct term. The thing about "jujutsu" vs. "jiu-jitsu", etc., is that "jiujitsu" is based on an older form of Romanisation. This is why "budokwai" is still used in the UK.

As an American, I intend to exercise my free speech rights to mispell words, misuse grammar, and mangle spelling and pronunciation of non-English words.

And if that labels me as an ignorant and ugly American...well...well...I guess I'll just go to McDonalds and have a Happy Meal.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
As an American, I intend to exercise my free speech rights to mispell words, misuse grammar, and mangle spelling and pronunciation of non-English words.

And if that labels me as an ignorant and ugly American...well...well...I guess I'll just go to McDonalds and have a Happy Meal.
Guess you'll have to.
I didn't know such freedoms extended to deliberate error?

Being American means having the right to be stupid! Don't you guys have the "Jerry Springer Show" on TV in Japan? If not, you can never really understand American culture and how we exercise our freedom to be stupid.

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
I didn't know such freedoms extended to deliberate error?

I should say they do, but I don't think these are deliberate errors. The use of -ka is probably due to ignorance, but jujitsu is from an older period when the Romanization was done differently.

I've argued in the other thread that jujitsu is an incorrect transliteration but is a correct current English term, often used to describe diplomacy ("Putin's strategic jujitsu in the former Central Asian republics"). It's been adopted into English. In the Kenpo community, I'd say Kenpoka has been adopted. English is like that--we (mis-)adopt words all the time!

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Being American means having the right to be stupid! Don't you guys have the "Jerry Springer Show" on TV in Japan? If not, you can never really understand American culture and how we exercise our freedom to be stupid.
Yes, "Jerry Springer" is shown over here. BTW, Jerry is British.
I still don't understand why you'd want to write something you know is incorrect? Don't just say it's an American perogative, as that's a copout; please explain your motivation in detail.
TIA,

Many words in English are borrowed from other languages. American English borrows from other languages and we often change the spelling and pronounciation of those words as well as our own words over time.

I guess Kenpoka is an English word now...

Anyway, I think I've dragged this thread too far off topic and I'm going to stop now.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
I guess Kenpoka is an English word now...
But it's not. C'mon: admit it: until I told you otherwise, you thought that "kempoka" was a Japanese word, didn't you? As with "gi" and "jujitsu". But they are not; they are just plain wrong. See the difference?

OK, I said I was done. But now you are getting personal!

The truth is that I didn't care whether or not it was Japanese or not. Americans who know what Kenpo is know that a Kenpoka is someone who studies Kenpo. Thank you for educating me about the topic. I am a better person now.

OK? Now I'm done.

Shouldn't this forum be about Shorinji Kempo???

Originally posted by arnisador
It's been adopted into English. In the Kenpo community, I'd say Kenpoka has been adopted. English is like that--we (mis-)adopt words all the time!
But "kenpoka" hasn't been adopted: admit it; people use this non-existent word because they mistakenly think it's Japanese. Same with "gi"; in official publications, the words are italicised to show that they're being used as is from the Japanese; except in Japanese, neither word actually exists.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
OK, I said I was done. But now you are getting personal!
How am I getting personal? I'd just like to an anser to the question.
Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
The truth is that I didn't care whether or not it was Japanese or not. Americans who know what Kenpo is know that a Kenpoka is someone who studies Kenpo. Thank you for educating me about the topic. I am a better person now.
But they're not. A person who practices Kempo is called a Kenshi. "Kempoka" is not a word.
Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Shouldn't this forum be about Shorinji Kempo???
And those who practice Shorinji Kempo are called Shorinji Kenshi.

I actually have never heard aloud the word "Kenpoka", but have seen it's acceptance through common usage.

Another example of this is "disrespect" ... drives me nuts!!! Much like "Kenpopoka" is used now Kimpatsu. We do not have to like it, but the language changes with time to include words that are identifiable within the culture where they are used. No one is trying to get you to use "kenpoka", "kenpoist", not "kenpo guys" (which I personally prefer.) Actually, as a Kenpo practitioner in the United States, I have been called worse.

It is not even an "agree to disagree" issue. Rather culture specific, which cannot be "judged" or corrected without the context.

In the meantime, Kenshi, by common practice would not even be recognizable most places in the world ... but I do not mind at all, either you referring to yourself or others by that term ... just do not insist that we use it.

Respectfully,
-Michael

... I was learning about Shorinji Kenpo, can ya'll get back to it.

Thanks,
-MB:D

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
But "kenpoka" hasn't been adopted: admit it; people use this non-existent word because they mistakenly think it's Japanese. Same with "gi"; in official publications, the words are italicised to show that they're being used as is from the Japanese; except in Japanese, neither word actually exists.

I think the case is strongest for jujitsu. But as a practical matter, Kenpoka is widely used and understood in the American martial arts world. (One also sees Kenpoist.) I think it is at least in the process of becoming accepted.

The -ka is used as a suffix (mis-?)adopted from the Japanese. You'll see it added onto all sorts of arts--I've seen people talk about kung fu-ka and these are people who understand that it's a Japanese suffix and a Chinese art.

So, I sort of agree with you but also see what the practice is here in the States!

Originally posted by Michael Billings
IMuch like "Kenpopoka" is used now Kimpatsu.
Not in Japanese, it isn't.
Originally posted by Michael Billings
We do not have to like it, but the language changes with time to include words that are identifiable within the culture where they are used. No one is trying to get you to use "kenpoka", "kenpoist", not "kenpo guys" (which I personally prefer.)
Not possible in Japanese, as i explained above. "-ka" as a suffix can only be used with "-do".
Originally posted by Michael Billings
Actually, as a Kenpo practitioner in the United States, I have been called worse.
Yeah, I get that all the time. But this is a family forum and the terms are not repeatable here. :D
Originally posted by Michael Billings
It is not even an "agree to disagree" issue. Rather culture specific, which cannot be "judged" or corrected without the context.
Yes: Japanese culture. Use the language correctly, so that your Japanese instructors can understand you.
Originally posted by Michael Billings
In the meantime, Kenshi, by common practice would not even be recognizable most places in the world ... but I do not mind at all, either you referring to yourself or others by that term ... just do not insist that we use it.
What do you mean by "most places in the world"? Shorinji Kempo is extant in over 30 countries worldwide now, and we all use "Kenshi". Conversely "kempoka" is not understandable in the one country where it matters: Japan. I shall continue to call people out on their misuse of the language, because that's how consciousness-raising works.

Originally posted by Michael Billings
... I was learning about Shorinji Kenpo, can ya'll get back to it.
What would you like to know? Note that the insistence on proper use of terminology is a Shorinji Kenshi trait.
:soapbox:

I'm curious about specifically which arts went into it and what the "schools" within it are--it sounds like there are different systems taught in it, like with the Bujinkan.

Originally posted by arnisador
I'm curious about specifically which arts went into it and what the "schools" within it are--it sounds like there are different systems taught in it, like with the Bujinkan.
Unlike the Bujinkan, Shorinji Kempo is a codified art, with a very well organised syllabus. Kaiso also took disparate techniques and organised them into families according to common characteristics; for example, all nuki waza are classified as Ryo-ken, and all gyaku waza as Ryuka-ken.
The main style of punching and kicking are derived from Giwamonken kung fu. In addition, there are elements from Byakuren (White Lotus) and Kakuritsu (White Crane) styles.
HTH.

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
What would you like to know? Note that the insistence on proper use of terminology is a Shorinji Kenshi trait.
:soapbox:

Konbanwa (Ohayo Gozaimasu ) Kehoe-san,

Sumimasen Gomennasai for my reply, I do not mean it to be negative. Please read with patience.

I do not know (Wakarimasen) a lot about the Japanese Language. (* Written or Spoken *)

I do not know a lot about the Japanese Culture.

I have worked with Japanese Citizens here in the US almost every day for the last three years. Yes, one would think, I would have learned more. :( What I have learned is that the Japanese and the Americans and the rest of the world are not that different. You can instruct them, or guide them to learn. You cannot force them.

I do not remember the story word for word, with the moral being "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink."

I think we have this lesson here also. You wish to force or to make everyone step in line or to drink the water when you discuss your art.

Education, many times, is learned at different rates for different people, and by different cultures. If you were to guide someone down the road of enlightenment or education and they were insulting you then you would not be held in contempt by your peers for either ignoring of for replying with your own comments be they insults or not. Yet, if the person, is still asking questions, even though you believe you might have answered the question a 1000 times, it means they just do not get it or are not ready to accept the premise or issues you are presenting. Sometimes it is better to allow them to sit back and absorb it, or to try different words.

i.e. Many times at work, I have to take changes in front of a management board to have the decide if we should implement this in production next week or not. If one was to talk to the people who make the decisions before the meeting so they feel like they know what is going on, they will more than likely be on your side and the idea / program approved. If one was to surprise them then they will put their backs up, and if they do not have time to ask the right questions or to get comfortable or time to absorb the idea, they will reject what has been presented, just because.

I do not wish to seem like someone telling anyone how to teach. I am only offering my experiences for you to review and to absorb, and use if one was to think they might help.

One of the other things, I have found while working with the Japanese, is the avoidance of blame and negative words and comments. Such as You Failed or that is wrong. I have found comments like, I believe that does not meet the expectations of GMPT, or I can see how you might think the requirements said this, yet this is what we really wanted, to be much more enlightening. I also apply this to Americans. I get lots of things done. I recently took over another project, (* Working both at the same time *) and I applied what I learned from the first to the second, and within a couple of weeks the Team was moving forward with me at the helm and we had less meetings that were more productive with better attendance, and everyone was doing well. My Apologies, just quoting more of my personal experiences.

I wish you luck

Doumo Arigato Gozaimashita

:asian:

Relativism doesn't apply here. As Richard Dawkins wrote: "I think it's important to realize that when two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong."
Japanese is the lingua franca of Shorinji Kempo, so the terms used herein are not American, they are Japanese. And the telling point is that when Americans use the terms "gi" and "kempoka", they do not use them in the belief that these are Americanised words; they mistakenly think that these are genuine Japanese words. But the words are not, and those who speak them are simply wrong.

so where'd gi come from?

(perhaps I missed it further up in the thread)

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Relativism doesn't apply here. As Richard Dawkins wrote: "I think it's important to realize that when two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong."
Japanese is the lingua franca of Shorinji Kempo, so the terms used herein are not American, they are Japanese. And the telling point is that when Americans use the terms "gi" and "kempoka", they do not use them in the belief that these are Americanised words; they mistakenly think that these are genuine Japanese words. But the words are not, and those who speak them are simply wrong.

Tony,


Relativism - any theory holding that criteria of judgement are relative, varying with individuals and their environments.


If the person believes they are Japanese words then yes they need to be educated, to the fact that at best they are Amercan Slang.

The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, as long as you are only thinking two dimensional. If you put a 15000 meter tall mountain in the middle then it might be shortest for the person to travel to go around, since they cannot go through something solid. And sometimes, you can make an arguement and have no one understand your point. In the end your message cannot get out if you do not communicate at a level that peopel are willing to listen too, or understand.

As to something being simply wrong. Prove to me any one thing that is absolutely 100% wrong or even 100% right, I will show you a formula with too few variables to properly define the model.
Yes, a form a relativism, or philosphy, or mathematics, or applied physics, you choose.

You state in Shorinji Kempo, these are the terms. And that it is the way it must be. Example, from yourself. You stated that these words Shorinji Kempo, came from Chinese. Where did the Chinese words come from? Who decided what was the proper way to spell or say these words? Was it decided over time as cultures shifted or was it decided like many of the words in the English language by a bunch of drunk scholars at Oxford England? or the fact that the term e-mail was being used so much by the french they created a new word in FRENCH just for this subject. I tell you the English and French languages have grown. From my experiences with the Japanese they do not have Kanji (Spelling) terms for all terms in engineering. Even when the Japanese talk amongst themsleves they use English or even German Terms to communicate. Why? Because they became accepted, since there own language did not have the proper terms. Another example, Tidal Wave. Everyone knows what I mean, yet it is a wrong word, that has been used for many years. Numerous people have switch to Tsunami for this word better represents the actual meaning. Yet, in Japanese they use Torque an english term when discussing engineering terms.

So, are you trying to tell me I am wrong becuase this is the way it has to be becuase this is the way you were taught?

This is fine. This is your belief and or faith then. More Power to you. Just do not expect me to listen to you, if you do not have an open mind.

And thanks for the Arguement, I have enjoyed it so far.

With Respect to you and your beliefs

... in Japanese culture, although tolerated more in America, it is still not "acceptable" by all. Rich, I find you extremely tolerant of an ethnocentric attitude where "correction" is being offered so rudely.

I think your perceptions and the people you work with are much more the norm, and my experience also. Your post clearly shows your awareness of the niceties of communication, and polite manners.

Somehow I found my hackles rising at the correction offered by you Kimpatsu. It is not what you said, nor am I questioning your knowledge or experience, rather I am somewhat uncomfortabe with how you chose to express yourself in this medium. Given your profession I know you have the fund of knowledge and resources to communicate clearly ... that is not the issue. Rather there is a superior and somewhat condesending attitude communicated in your writing. Is this intentional? I assume and hope not. I am not even comfortable relating this to you on this medium. I do appreciate your extensive knowledge of Shorinji-Kempo, which is a part of my history, but not my primary system of Martial Arts. I say this to let you know that it is not what you are saying that is somewhat offensive, but how you are saying it.

Lighten up a little unless you just like the conflict and that is part of the secondary gain for your posting. Then again, others may not take offense.

I will back off and just be a reader learning more about a piece of my own Art's history.

I also want to know about Nightingale's question about gi?

OK, I've got the Japanese lesson now. Thank you. I am not offended by Kimpatsu's correction of the (somewhat) common American misuse of "ka" and several other Japanese-isms. Enough of this language discussion already.

Can we talk about Shorinji Kempo? How did Shorinji Kempo evolve to include so many Jujitsu techniques? The art seems a good blend of Shaolin style striking and Jujitsu joint locks and throws. Can anyone shed some light on this.

Rich, if this is American slang, how come it's itallicised in text? It's viewed as Japanese, so it is WRONG, plain and simple.
You want to talk about Shorinji Kempo? Fine: first learn the correct terminology.
Then ask your questions.

Kimpatsu: We have been discussing terminology for several days now. We have learned our lesson. Can we talk about Shorinji Kempo now?

Originally posted by Michael Billings
... in Japanese culture, although tolerated more in America, it is still not "acceptable" by all. Rich, I find you extremely tolerant of an ethnocentric attitude where "correction" is being offered so rudely.

I think your perceptions and the people you work with are much more the norm, and my experience also. Your post clearly shows your awareness of the niceties of communication, and polite manners.

Somehow I found my hackles rising at the correction offered by you Kimpatsu. It is not what you said, nor am I questioning your knowledge or experience, rather I am somewhat uncomfortabe with how you chose to express yourself in this medium. Given your profession I know you have the fund of knowledge and resources to communicate clearly ... that is not the issue. Rather there is a superior and somewhat condesending attitude communicated in your writing. Is this intentional? I assume and hope not. I am not even comfortable relating this to you on this medium. I do appreciate your extensive knowledge of Shorinji-Kempo, which is a part of my history, but not my primary system of Martial Arts. I say this to let you know that it is not what you are saying that is somewhat offensive, but how you are saying it.

Lighten up a little unless you just like the conflict and that is part of the secondary gain for your posting. Then again, others may not take offense.

I will back off and just be a reader learning more about a piece of my own Art's history.

I also want to know about Nightingale's question about gi?

um... what he said.

Kimpatsu... have you ever heard the expression about catching more flies with honey? (although why anyone would want to catch flies, I have no idea) People will be much more likely to listen to your message if it isn't delivered with quite as much attitude. In order to teach someone something, you must first establish a rapport with your student. If someone doesn't like you, they are much less likely to listen to anything you have to say. Your attitude towards other MartialTalk members has, frankly, discouraged me from looking much further into Shorinji Kempo.

-Nightingale

Originally posted by Michael Billings


I also want to know about Nightingale's question about gi?
Mr. Billings,

I believe Tony is referring to the common usage of "Gi" as oppose to the more proper way "Do-Gi" .

Salute,

.... I understand. It does not help that KI International and Doshin's web sites use the abbreviated version. Another of those "common usage" things.

The americanism of it is 'Uniform' and specifically "Jacket" and "Pants" (traditional, contact, or elastic.) Geez go figure?

Thanks,
-MB

Originally posted by Michael Billings
.... I understand. It does not help that KI International and Doshin's web sites use the abbreviated version. Another of those "common usage" things.

The americanism of it is 'Uniform' and specifically "Jacket" and "Pants" (traditional, contact, or elastic.) Geez go figure?

Thanks,
-MB
What can I tell you my friend. Some are picky!!!

Osu, (let's start one on this now)

lol...

just as long as nobody reposts Gou Ronin's essay on "Smurf Words"

Originally posted by nightingale8472
lol...

just as long as nobody reposts Gou Ronin's essay on "Smurf Words"
"Smurf words"?

Originally posted by nightingale8472
lol...

just as long as nobody reposts Gou Ronin's essay on "Smurf Words"
Gou aka Dougie is in check. Don't worry about him. Love to see him some day face to face.LOL

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
"Smurf words"?

"In" joke concerning a former member and his humor. (I think)

:asian:

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
"In" joke concerning a former member and his humor. (I think)

:asian:
Ah.
Thank you.

ok... brief explanation:

"smurf words" are words that are used when the person is either lacking another appropriate word, or just is using the wrong word... Taken from the 80s cartoon "the smurfs"

common smurf lingo:

"You look very smurfy today"
"We'll have a smurfing good time."
"Lets go smurf some food."
"Papa Smurf! Hefty's smurfing at me!"

you get the picture?

Gou's point was that people use "oss" like the smurfs "smurf." They use it at the wrong time to the wrong people for the wrong reasons. Instead of saying "Yes, Sir!", "I understand, Ma'am" or "thank you!" many martial artists will say "Oss!" instead, figuring it gets their point across.

Another example is how many people use the f-word. Most people use this word when other adjectives fail them. The word comes out of my brother's mouth quite often. I really don't care if other people curse around me, but I decided to mess with him and started whistling the smurf theme song whenever he cussed. Finally, he asked me "What the f- is that all about?!" I explained, we had a good laugh, and now, every so often when he wants to make me grin, he substitutes the word "smurf" for his usual colorful metaphor of choice. Last amusing thing I heard from him was "Smurf those mother-smurfers!" when my family was watching the news. He and I busted up laughing, and my parents just looked confused (which made it all the more amusing).

Like in the Army with "Hoo-ah" or the like!

Ah, for those who cannot find le mot juste.
At least in Shorinji Kempo, we don't say "oss"...

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
But it's not. C'mon: admit it: until I told you otherwise, you thought that "kempoka" was a Japanese word, didn't you? As with "gi" and "jujitsu". But they are not; they are just plain wrong. See the difference?

Instead of English, I think it should be American. It's like the word COLOUR , there is a 'U' in it, but the American way of spelling just leaves it out.

--Dave

:asian:

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Instead of , I think it should be American. It's like the word COLOUR , there is a 'U' in it, but the American way of spelling just leaves it out.
That's because Americans are selfish, and there's no room for "U" in their language... :D

Originally posted by Michael Billings
... in Japanese culture, although tolerated more in America, it is still not "acceptable" by all. Rich, I find you extremely tolerant of an ethnocentric attitude where "correction" is being offered so rudely.

I think your perceptions and the people you work with are much more the norm, and my experience also. Your post clearly shows your awareness of the niceties of communication, and polite manners.

Somehow I found my hackles rising at the correction offered by you Kimpatsu. It is not what you said, nor am I questioning your knowledge or experience, rather I am somewhat uncomfortabe with how you chose to express yourself in this medium. Given your profession I know you have the fund of knowledge and resources to communicate clearly ... that is not the issue. Rather there is a superior and somewhat condesending attitude communicated in your writing. Is this intentional? I assume and hope not. I am not even comfortable relating this to you on this medium. I do appreciate your extensive knowledge of Shorinji-Kempo, which is a part of my history, but not my primary system of Martial Arts. I say this to let you know that it is not what you are saying that is somewhat offensive, but how you are saying it.

Lighten up a little unless you just like the conflict and that is part of the secondary gain for your posting. Then again, others may not take offense.

I will back off and just be a reader learning more about a piece of my own Art's history.

I also want to know about Nightingale's question about gi?

Sir, I don't think Mr. Kehoe is being rude per se. I think it may be part of the way things are done in his part of the world. I seem to remember a lot of people had this same kind of discussion with Robert Rousselot(RyuShiKan) when he was on this board. He is also in Japan. As such I think if most of us were to allow our egos to move aside for a bit, then we might manage to get the gist of what Kimpatsu is trying to say.
Yes his terminology and phrasing appear to be abrupt and even blunt compared to how we might say or phrase things, but you have to admit he has a point. If someone was asking you about the intricacies(I'm sure that is spelt wrong) of American Kenpo, you would have to explain using AK terminology, that can be quite foreign to karateka and kenshi:) from other styles.
Sometimes I think that, no matter how tight they are, you have stand in someone elses shoes for a while.:D

--Dave

:asian:

This is part of what I posted elsewhere. I think it compliments Mr. Cobbs post a bit. Some differences are not tolerated here (racist/bigoted for examples). Others we need to allow for, on all sides.

===

Kimpatsu is a traditional student of the Japanese arts. Both KenpoTess and nightingale8472 are students of an American art. The Japanese arts have a reputation of being stricter, and more conservative, whereas the American arts are more relaxed and laid back. Its a culture class. (As an example, in some Asian arts being hit with a stick by the instructor to aid your focus is common. In the US, at the least a lawsuit would arise. Both are right for where they are.)

I recomend everyone take a deep breath and relax.

===

I know Robert Rousselot very well. (Big guy!)
The point about Shorinji Kempo is that these rules apply to all branches in every country where the art is taught and practiced, not just in Japan. Our code is universal to all branches, including those in America. So, you see, Kaith, American Kenshi don't file lawsuits against their masters, either.

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Ah, for those who cannot find le mot juste.
At least in Shorinji Kempo, we don't say "oss"...

I get the impression that Japanese martial artists don't use that term, in the dojo at all.

--Dave

:asian:

Originally posted by D.Cobb
I get the impression that Japanese martial artists don't use that term, in the dojo at all.
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I know we don't use it in Shorinji Kempo.
In Japan, salarymen say it to each other a lot.

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Rich, if this is American slang, how come it's itallicised in text? It's viewed as Japanese, so it is WRONG, plain and simple.
You want to talk about Shorinji Kempo? Fine: first learn the correct terminology.
Then ask your questions.

Sometimes and I repeat Sometimes Slang is written in Italics to show it is slang.

I see by this and other posts you understand the proper way to write a book.

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
I see by this and other posts you understand the proper way to write a book.
Already written one.
The Orthography Commandos strike again!
:armed:

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
That's because Americans are selfish, and there's no room for "U" in their language... :D

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

There, I knew you had sense of humour!
I love it!!:D

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

--Dave
:rofl:

Originally posted by D.Cobb
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

There, I knew you had sense of humour!
I love it!!:D

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

--Dave
:rofl:
Someday, Dave, I'll also tell you why all Americans are Communists... ;)

The posts from the Shorinji Kempo forum have been merged into the JMA-General forum.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

OK, I've got the Japanese lesson now. Thank you. I am not offended by Kimpatsu's correction of the (somewhat) common American misuse of "ka" and several other Japanese-isms. Enough of this language discussion already.

Can we talk about Shorinji Kempo? How did Shorinji Kempo evolve to include so many Jujitsu techniques? The art seems a good blend of Shaolin style striking and Jujitsu joint locks and throws. Can anyone shed some light on this.I was just reading through some of the old posts, and noticed that your question was never answered. With respect to the origin of our Juho I don’t really know if they are from Jujutsu or not. Certainly Doshin So had studied Jujutsu under his uncle when he was younger, and apparently studied Hakko Ryu for a couple of years on his return to Japan. I find it difficult to believe that all the Juho came from these experiences, as the technical knowledge is so vast. What we should remember is the China also have these types of techniques, in fact many believe that Jujutsu cam from China initially. So the reality is probably that they came from both China and Japan. When Kaiso formed Shorinji Kempo he systemised all his knowledge of the different forms of budo that he studied, and formatted it into one cohesive art.