Can MySpace lift the curse? [Archive] - MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

shesulsa

01-25-2007, 02:15 PM

Building a safer MySpace (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16789338/)

Weeks into his tenure as safety czar of social network MySpace, Hemanshu Nigam already had his hands full. MySpace had been slapped with a $30 million lawsuit concerning a 14-year-old Texas girl who said she was assaulted by a predator she met on MySpace. Lawmakers were lobbying to have social networks banned from schools and libraries.

Now, weeks before Nigam's first anniversary as MySpace chief security officer, the pressure is even greater. News Corp.'s rapidly growing social network now faces four new lawsuits from the same Texas law firm, Barry & Loewy, that sued MySpace last June.

Nigam's efforts to bolster security at the social network are well under way. On Jan. 23, he announced a partnership with the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children to use MySpace to disseminate word of child abductions through the Amber Alert system, named after a girl who was abducted and killed in 1996. He also said the site will implement an e-mail verification system and an "over/under" privacy tool that prevents contact in either direction between users above the age of 18 with younger users.

I've seriously considered terminating my account with MySpace because of its ease of access to potential victims.

Your thoughts on this?

Ping898

01-25-2007, 02:32 PM

tradrockrat

01-25-2007, 02:35 PM

The internet is a tool - it's up to us to educate our children on how to use it safely. I wouldn't let my child use a table saw without instruction and supervision - the internet is no different.(Of course I don't have kids...)

rutherford

01-25-2007, 02:38 PM

My thought is that educating children about the risks of online activity and taking an interest in their lives is the solution, and that the network isn't to blame.

Carol

01-25-2007, 02:44 PM

Why aren't they going after Xanga, BlogSpot, TagWorld...?

Oh...right...I forgot. MySpace has the deepest pockets.

I had a chat with my old Kenpo teacher once when she mentioned her teenage daughter was on MySpace. She said that her daughter was very wise about how she handled herself at keeping her profile private, not letting anyone on her friends list that wasn't her friend IRL...

MySpace isn't the problem here. Its the parents that let kids keep computers in their bedrooms where they can go all over the internet unsupervised. I guarantee you that strangers on MySpace is not the only thing they are getting in to.

Kreth

01-25-2007, 02:47 PM

I wasn't a big fan until my band started using MySpace, but it seems that online communities are the "next big thing" that's endangering our children. Not long ago, it was video games, before that, it was music. Maybe some of these parents should stop looking for a scapegoat, get off their asses, and find out what's going on in their children's lives.

bushidomartialarts

01-25-2007, 02:57 PM

matches can cause fires if your child doesn't learn how to use them responsibly.

and yes, some law firm has undoubtedly sued a match company.

Drac

01-25-2007, 03:25 PM

I have hear horror stories from my buddies NONE I can repeat as they are still on going investigations..Get rid of it Shesusa...

Brian R. VanCise

01-25-2007, 03:38 PM

I have hear horror stories from my buddies NONE I can repeat as they are still on going investigations..Get rid of it Shesusa...

While I think it is ultimately up to the parent's to educated and supervise their kid's I am not a fan of myspace at all. It is just not a well done internet community and seems to be run pretty poorly at this point.

Having said that hopefully they start taking proper precautions to protect the younger people.

ArmorOfGod

01-25-2007, 04:05 PM

INDYFIGHTER

01-25-2007, 04:41 PM

terryl965

01-25-2007, 04:45 PM

I know as a parent my childern better never be on that site ever, there are to many valuables that no-one really knows about with are the pedators around better safe than sorry.

evenflow1121

01-25-2007, 05:18 PM

I do agree that a lot of the blame sits on the parents for lack of supervision, but in our society very few will blame the parents for obvious reasons.

Brian R. VanCise

01-25-2007, 05:26 PM

I know as a parent my childern better never be on that site ever, there are to many valuables that no-one really knows about with are the pedators around better safe than sorry.

Smart thinking Terry.

Drac

01-25-2007, 05:35 PM

I am upset that my Neice is on it, but she's 18...My buddies busted a 50 something year old school teacher in Fla that was going to meet a little honey he met on MySpace..The girl became suspicious of the things he posted and alerted the locals..He had a bottle of wine, some Vaium, a sexy nightie and a camera..

Brian R. VanCise

01-25-2007, 05:38 PM

Drac

01-25-2007, 05:39 PM

Hey Drac, some friends of mine work for the State and they have some horrible stories to tell.

That's the only one I can tell...

Brian R. VanCise

01-25-2007, 05:42 PM

That's the only one I can tell...

Yep the ones I have heard are not really retellable as well.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif

Drac

01-25-2007, 05:46 PM

Yep the ones I have heard are not really retellable as well.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif

Yes....There are SICk people out there...

Infinite

01-25-2007, 06:00 PM

I could tell stories... in fact for once we are on my home ground yay!

There are a lot of factors to take into account about Myspace. The first of which is that it was designed not for children but for bands. Bands just happen to have young fans and the young people took it over.

As it was never designed for what it is doing some of the controls to protect the children come in the form of catchup. I know the security guys at Myspace they are top notch people and do a great deal to protect everyone there not just the kids.

Why is myspace dangerious? People put out to much info is it any more dangerious than oh say Yahoo profiles? Nope not in the least both are mined constantly by preditors. MSN is not immune and neither is gmail or any other community. Myspace just happens to have cought parents by surprise and they didn't monitor their kids.

Parents are the only ones that can show kids there is risk. They haven't cought up to the digital age so its not common practice. My cousin had his child on myspace but not before he asked me to install monitoring software. Once he had it he talked to his child a great deal about the things he was saying and doing. It was amazing to me too watch a ten year old speak like a rap mogul to his friends about the hoes in his class.

For parents danger exists in what you do not control/know. You can easily let your child deal on myspace if they understand the risk. They are no more at risk going to school than on myspace. If you think for a second child molestors don't sit outside school yards I think some of the LEO's here could correct that assumption.

Does Myspace have some responsibility to clearly help people navigate this threat? Yes they do and they have if you read their guides and FAQ's they tell you what not to do too be safe. People just pick on myspace because it was media friendly. If you will think back briefly oh about 5 years ago this same argument for the profiles on yahoo and ICQ. People were up in arms about the children that fell prey to adults on those systems the same way as they do on myspace.

The only difference? Children still seem to flock to myspace so its just more convient for the predators.

Those knee jerk reactions of I wouldn't let my kid on there. Are in fact worse than letting them experience it in a safe way. I'm not advocating turning your kids loose on Myspace but the same dangers they face there they face anywhere online.

Child Online Safety,

Monitor
Assess
Educate
Monitor
etc...

--Infy

Carol

01-25-2007, 06:10 PM

Indeed there are. VERY sick.

A story comes to mind...a man was leading up a group that was protesting/boycotting Home Depot because they were not contracting to get lumber from ecologically sound resources. IIRC the protests and boycotts had no effect on changing Home Depot's policy.

The group then changed its tacticts and invested in Home Depot stock...and then built a campaign to attract like-minded Home Depot investors to bring up their lumbering practices through investor relations.

THAT move was successful in influencing policy.

Geo, if you or I or anyone chooses to leave MySpace, we certainly can. We have that freedom. We also have a voice. Once we close up our account, we are already "lost" as a customer. We are an outsider that may be perceived as someone with an axe to grind.

But if we voice our concerns as active members, then we are the voice of people then that is a voice from people that have a stake (albeit small) in the community.

jks9199

01-25-2007, 06:26 PM

While MySpace isn't perfect and is an open ground for abuse, I think a lot of the blame needs to rest on the parents of these kids too, not just MySpace. How the heck are they being given such freedom at to have the ability to meet these predators because it seems like these predators don't just live next door? Why aren't these parents educating their kids about the dangers of revealing too much information online? Why aren't these parents watching over their kids shoulders or installing software to track where their kids go online and who they talk to?
I think it is good that MySpace is implementing all these new efforts, and I hope they continue to improve, but I don't think they should be blamed or at least recieve full blame for the all the crimes that have happened because of it...It just seems to me that people are looking for someone to blame and MySpace is an easy target...
MySpace is no different -- and no better than -- letting kids hang out at the mall, or the beach, or anywhere else. If the parents aren't paying attention -- they won't have a clue what the kids are doing, and the kids will probably find their way to trouble. But, with care, there's nothing inherently evil in MySpace, FaceBook, or any of the similar social networking sites.

Kids shouldn't be making plans to meet up with people that they & their parents don't know. If they insist on meeting someone -- their parents should be there, too, and it should be in a very public location.

But the kids that are hooking up with the perverts aren't the ones whose parents are involved...

Ping898

01-25-2007, 06:37 PM

Obviously Shesulsa, the choice to keep or cancelyour account is yours.
In the end, MySpace is just getting a lot of the heat because it is very popular....
One need only look in the news to be reminded it is not the only threat....and probably not even the most immediate threat...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/01/25/sex.ruse.ap/index.html

PRESCOTT, Arizona (AP) -- Authorities investigating a 29-year-old sex offender suspected of repeatedly enrolling in schools as a 12-year-old boy said Thursday they seized a video showing him engaging in sex acts with a child.
....
Officials at another school, the Imagine School at Rosefield in the Phoenix suburb of Surprise, said Rodreick attended class from August through November before they dropped him for poor attendance.
He spent a total of 50 days in class, and apparently did not raise concerns.

Kacey

01-25-2007, 07:15 PM

We had our annual (sometimes semi-annual) inservice on spotting gang activity in the middle school I work at, and the presenters added a section on myspace... they had a few interesting comments. One, many kids are now starting to have 2 profiles - one they let their parents see, and one for their friends. Two, if you go to my space and put in the name of any gang, you can find all sorts of information - including the time and date of the next gang fight, videos of gangers being jumped in (2 or more minutes of getting hit without being allowed to fight back - or it goes on longer). On the other hand, a fair number of kids in my district and surrounding districts have been caught advertising their gang affiliation on myspace, and are either no longer in school (their choice or ours) bullying and recruiting other kids... but they're getting wiser to that one.

Drac

01-25-2007, 09:01 PM

Kids shouldn't be making plans to meet up with people that they & their parents don't know. If they insist on meeting someone -- their parents should be there, too, and it should be in a very public location.
But the kids that are hooking up with the perverts aren't the ones whose parents are involved...

Gospel truth there...

Carol

01-25-2007, 09:06 PM

Gospel truth there...

Amen :(

Kreth

01-26-2007, 01:03 AM

He had a bottle of wine, some Vaium, a sexy nightie and a camera..
Yeah, but was he cute in the nightie? :p

Jonathan Randall

01-26-2007, 01:58 AM

Child Online Safety,

Monitor
Assess
Educate
Monitor
etc...

--Infy

Great list! MONITOR your children. Predators (whether adult bullies or sexual predators) zero in on those children who are not watched or cared for by their parents. When I was young, a school librarian would be a terrible bully to a number of students - but NEVER to those whose parents were active in their child's school life and attended Open Houses and such.

Still, IMO, a thirteen something (or younger) should NOT have unwatched Internet access - if they're on, you're in the same room. My brother did this with his children and my sister does this with hers.

Brian R. VanCise

01-26-2007, 08:37 AM

Great list! MONITOR your children. Predators (whether adult bullies or sexual predators) zero in on those children who are not watched or cared for by their parents. When I was young, a school librarian would be a terrible bully to a number of students - but NEVER to those whose parents were active in their child's school life and attended Open Houses and such.

Still, IMO, a thirteen something (or younger) should NOT have unwatched Internet access - if they're on, you're in the same room. My brother did this with his children and my sister does this with hers.

Excellent advice Johnathan!

shesulsa

01-26-2007, 09:26 AM

For every parent who gives their children extremely limited internet access (my daughter has virtually none at home, save her need to research information) there is a child who understands the danger of places like MySpace, chatrooms, etcetera and who finds a way to do it anyway.

My daughter created her MySpace accounts at school in the computer lab. She and her friends look up penis.com there too. Now, for those of you who haven't been around MT for very long, the ones who do and who know what I do in my spare time will tell you I teach self-defense to girls, adults, and pairings of girls and their guardian. My daughter assists me and talks to teens about how little value there is spending time on MySpace and in chat modules when you could be out *doing* something - shooting hoops, serving the community, outdoor stewardship, etcetera. So just because a child espouses values and engages in healthy, time-consuming and virtuous activities and you know where they are almost every minute doesn't mean that they won't find a way to get on line and chat with strangers when you're not around.

That said ...

Ping made a good point earlier - why not go after all the big online chat venues? What about MSN? Yahoo? AOL? After all, MySpace is just a one-stop shopping place for the personal on-line information - webpage, email, blogspot, chat forums, etcetera. Is it deep pockets?

What do you think the future will be in age verification on online communities and will our technology for this be cost-effective for in-home use?

MA-Caver

01-26-2007, 10:15 AM

Obviously parents want computers to babysit like they wanted televisions to babysit so they can do what they need/want to do.
They could create a KIDSPACE and ban anyone 14 yrs or older and have it run/monitored by LEO's (secretly... so to catch those damned predators). Either that or just ban the kids...
As an educational tool the internet is invaluable. For everything else it's an crap shoot.
Still as I've always said, the parents are ultimately responsible for everything... EVERYTHING that goes on with their kids' lives... at least until they're 18.

Infinite

01-26-2007, 10:23 AM

So wait... if I create oh I don't know an online forum for martial arts lets say... and a few 13 year olds decide to sign up am I then supposed to invest massive ammounts of cash to protect them? Or am I supposed to spend massive ammounts of cash to ban them?

Your putting ALL the onus on myspace to come up with a solution when in fact it isn't really there problem.

--Infy

MA-Caver

01-26-2007, 10:33 AM

So wait... if I create oh I don't know an online forum for martial arts lets say... and a few 13 year olds decide to sign up am I then supposed to invest massive ammounts of cash to protect them? Or am I supposed to spend massive ammounts of cash to ban them?

Your putting ALL the onus on myspace to come up with a solution when in fact it isn't really there problem.

--Infy
You're right it isn't MYSPACE's problem. But they still need to understand what's out there and do the best they can to help parents protect their children.
I've said that parents are ultimately responsible, but they need not bear the whole burden. Teachers, coaches, (MA) instructors and anyone else who comes in contact with a child needs to help reinforce what's good and what's bad.
Problem with that is what IS good and what IS bad? Who decides? Society supposedly makes the determination as a whole, local communities set up ordinances and laws, spreading out to counties and then state then out to the national level.
The internet is a international community, thus really can't be regulated by anyone... except by the user. That squares it back down to the home... where the parents are the head of the household.

Infinite

01-26-2007, 10:42 AM

You're right it isn't MYSPACE's problem. But they still need to understand what's out there and do the best they can to help parents protect their children.
I've said that parents are ultimately responsible, but they need not bear the whole burden. Teachers, coaches, (MA) instructors and anyone else who comes in contact with a child needs to help reinforce what's good and what's bad.
Problem with that is what IS good and what IS bad? Who decides? Society supposedly makes the determination as a whole, local communities set up ordinances and laws, spreading out to counties and then state then out to the national level.
The internet is a international community, thus really can't be regulated by anyone... except by the user. That squares it back down to the home... where the parents are the head of the household.

All good and valuable points and I agree. Myspace does a fairly decent job at putting together faq's and guides for parents AND children. They also warn you while creating those profiles not to put anything identifiable.

As someone else said her daughter went to school and set up her myspace account. There are ways and children will find them. I'd bet that her myspace page doesn't look exactly the same as everyone elses. I'm willing to bet she didn't put her address or anything and probably not even a last name.

If she did then the lesson wasn't learned and she isn't ready to be on the net. I think that's the part that is missing parents are never sure when ready is ready. They don't fully understand the dangers so it makes it difficult to assess if a child does as well.

--Infy

Drac

01-26-2007, 10:52 AM

Yeah, but was he cute in the nightie? :p

They didn't say..BUT I can tell you the arresting Sheriffs threatned to put him in the nightie and take pictures and POST them if he lied to them about his presence in the area..He stopped lying...

shesulsa

01-26-2007, 11:07 AM

So wait... if I create oh I don't know an online forum for martial arts lets say... and a few 13 year olds decide to sign up am I then supposed to invest massive ammounts of cash to protect them? Or am I supposed to spend massive ammounts of cash to ban them?
Well ... a couple of points:

1. I'm asking about the technology that may or may not be available to forums like this one to verify identity and age requirements just to find out what the feasibility is for automatic verification. I didnt' say the onus is on MySpace, just asking about the available technology.

2. I ban people from this site every day for false or incomplete information in their profle or if they happen to put in a birthday that shows they are younger than the required age, so I know what's involved in manually doing this.

Your putting ALL the onus on myspace to come up with a solution when in fact it isn't really there problem.
1. No, I'm not putting ALL the onus on MySpace (see above and read what I wrote) and ...

2. It becomes everyone's problem when children are irresponsible whether we like it or not. If a child breaks the law, this requires the attention of law enforcement and the possible need for facilities to house the kid - can you say tax dollars? Then when that child goes back to school, s/he must have an individualized education program which will require at least four school district employees get involved and spend extra time they don't have to assemble this plan. Then this kid will require some kind of therapeutic intervention, perhaps a combination which will take resources, and then there's the venue through which this child chose to express his/her unruliness. This all plays into the demographics of a residential area and school district performance levels which affect the sale of real estate and the flow of local commerce.

Just a clue here for you folks who can't seem to understand this: Good parents can raise kids who chose to turn bad.

Drac

01-26-2007, 11:14 AM

They could create a KIDSPACE and ban anyone 14 yrs or older and have it run/monitored by LEO's (secretly... so to catch those damned predators).

The Feds do it all the time...

Infinite

01-26-2007, 11:16 AM

Well ... a couple of points:

1. I'm asking about the technology that may or may not be available to forums like this one to verify identity and age requirements just to find out what the feasibility is for automatic verification. I didnt' say the onus is on MySpace, just asking about the available technology.

2. I ban people from this site every day for false or incomplete information in their profle or if they happen to put in a birthday that shows they are younger than the required age, so I know what's involved in manually doing this.

Ok so I'll take these two points as a seperate issue. Age Verification technology is almost exclusivly in use at XXX sites. The reason being is that basically the only way to verify age is to ask for a credit card. Children can't get credit cards (at least not unless their parents give them ones). This cuts people off at the age of 18. Prior to 18 there is no technology availible because there is no centralized registry in which to verify against.

So basically unless someone starts a not for profit group that has access to minor's records (not very likely) there will be no way to automate this process. You CAN how ever automate several other features such as checking the geography of the users IP with his stated zipcode. If those don't match up you know they are lieing at least about that.

So your choices are verify they are adults 18 or older or don't verify at all. Verifying if they are an adult requires cash you have to pay for the service.

It is an interesting security problem I'll work on it and see if I Can find a path out of this forest.

1. No, I'm not putting ALL the onus on MySpace (see above and read what I wrote) and ...

2. It becomes everyone's problem when children are irresponsible whether we like it or not. If a child breaks the law, this requires the attention of law enforcement and the possible need for facilities to house the kid - can you say tax dollars? Then when that child goes back to school, s/he must have an individualized education program which will require at least four school district employees get involved and spend extra time they don't have to assemble this plan. Then this kid will require some kind of therapeutic intervention, perhaps a combination which will take resources, and then there's the venue through which this child chose to express his/her unruliness. This all plays into the demographics of a residential area and school district performance levels which affect the sale of real estate and the flow of local commerce.

Just a clue here for you folks who can't seem to understand this: Good parents can raise kids who chose to turn bad.

Oh I fully understand that you can raise a kid and they can and will make stupid choices that is in fact what being a kid IS. Notice I said one of the primary problems is knowing if the kid is mature enough to handle the net. As we don't know all the dangers it becomes hard to establish if the child is ready.

So I'm not into the social liberal bent on things... I personally think if a child screws up I shouldn't have to pay for him to go to foster care. Now if the parents of the child screw up I'm all for paying for foster care.

School has turned into the great baby sitter. Everyone pays taxes to allow everyone the ability to have their kids watched for most of the day for most of their young lives. At one point we were teaching them but now we are just keeping them for the most part.

For the teachers out there that are teaching I commend you but alas you are the rare breeds. I do not wish to demean the process of teaching it is noble and I respect it very much.

--Infy

shesulsa

01-26-2007, 11:34 AM

Ok so I'll take these two points as a seperate issue. Age Verification technology is almost exclusivly in use at XXX sites. The reason being is that basically the only way to verify age is to ask for a credit card. Children can't get credit cards (at least not unless their parents give them ones). This cuts people off at the age of 18. Prior to 18 there is no technology availible because there is no centralized registry in which to verify against.

So basically unless someone starts a not for profit group that has access to minor's records (not very likely) there will be no way to automate this process. You CAN how ever automate several other features such as checking the geography of the users IP with his stated zipcode. If those don't match up you know they are lieing at least about that.
What about a state ID card issued to no one under the age of, say, 14 ... or if that's too young, use the DL? But then there is the identity protection issue.

School has turned into the great baby sitter. Everyone pays taxes to allow everyone the ability to have their kids watched for most of the day for most of their young lives. At one point we were teaching them but now we are just keeping them for the most part.

For the teachers out there that are teaching I commend you but alas you are the rare breeds. I do not wish to demean the process of teaching it is noble and I respect it very much.
I don't think of the school as a babysitter per se, though if they are to be in charge of minors and claim to be in charge of their safety and claim to have monitoring systems in place, then they need to fulfill that promise. And with ALL DUE RESPECT to teachers out there (I share Infy's sentiment in the quote above), teacher have been given too much to do besides teach and shape their charges.

Infinite

01-26-2007, 11:47 AM

What about a state ID card issued to no one under the age of, say, 14 ... or if that's too young, use the DL? But then there is the identity protection issue.

This highlights the problem I was indicating. How are you as a private citizen going to get access to minor's or even adults DL or State ID #'s?

So I'm sitting around trying to figure out a way to identify people without needing anything that would be illegal and its trumping me soundly.

I don't think of the school as a babysitter per se, though if they are to be in charge of minors and claim to be in charge of their safety and claim to have monitoring systems in place, then they need to fulfill that promise. And with ALL DUE RESPECT to teachers out there (I share Infy's sentiment in the quote above), teacher have been given too much to do besides teach and shape their charges.

Ahmen sister.

shesulsa

01-26-2007, 12:16 PM

This highlights the problem I was indicating. How are you as a private citizen going to get access to minor's or even adults DL or State ID #'s?
Why would I want that as a private citizen?

jks9199

01-26-2007, 12:21 PM

Still, IMO, a thirteen something (or younger) should NOT have unwatched Internet access - if they're on, you're in the same room. My brother did this with his children and my sister does this with hers.

It's not enough to be there. You have to know what they're doing and who they're talking/IMing to -- and you have to be aware of their current (it changes OFTEN) slang and codes.

I spend more time than I want to on MySpace professionally. And I'll openly admit that I'm not as up on some of the phrasing and slang as I ought to be. We "old folks" may think that the kids can't spell -- but they've actually got a pattern and rules; if I recall my language terms properly, I think a linguist might classify what they use as a "creole." (I also openly admit that I may have got that wrong!)

You also have to know where they get together in real life.

I'm a cop, and I work gangs primarily right now. Most parents, many educators, and even quite a few cops aren't as aware of how gang members use MySpace and other internet tools for the gangs -- or how much gang information is out there on the internet. Unfortunately, the information that's out there is going to get a kid killed one day when they decide to copy knowledge from a "real" gang into their neighborhood gang -- and then either a true member of that gang or their rivals take exception.

Yeah -- I can go on about this... :soapbox: But the bottom line is that we almost never find kids with involved parents in gangs. We almost never find kids whose parents are actively and positively involved in their lives meeting predators on-line. And that involvement doesn't mean shuttling them to school or soccer practice or even a martial arts class; it means actually doing things with the kids, having and enforcing rules and just plain being a parent, not a buddy. OK... I'm climbing off the soapbox now.

jks9199

01-26-2007, 12:32 PM

Well ... a couple of points:
[QUOTE]
1. I'm asking about the technology that may or may not be available to forums like this one to verify identity and age requirements just to find out what the feasibility is for automatic verification. I didnt' say the onus is on MySpace, just asking about the available technology.

2. I ban people from this site every day for false or incomplete information in their profle or if they happen to put in a birthday that shows they are younger than the required age, so I know what's involved in manually doing this.

I'm not an expert on what's available -- but the sad truth is that kids will likely find a way around it. For example, even though MySpace has restrictions based on age -- there sure seem to be a lot of 99 year olds who are amazingly computer literate... And who write like 13 year olds. And that's an easy one...

1. No, I'm not putting ALL the onus on MySpace (see above and read what I wrote) and ...

2. It becomes everyone's problem when children are irresponsible whether we like it or not. If a child breaks the law, this requires the attention of law enforcement and the possible need for facilities to house the kid - can you say tax dollars? Then when that child goes back to school, s/he must have an individualized education program which will require at least four school district employees get involved and spend extra time they don't have to assemble this plan. Then this kid will require some kind of therapeutic intervention, perhaps a combination which will take resources, and then there's the venue through which this child chose to express his/her unruliness. This all plays into the demographics of a residential area and school district performance levels which affect the sale of real estate and the flow of local commerce.

MySpace works with law enforcement, and supports law enforcement efforts. AOL has a long history of providing "kid safe" areas, and doing their best to keep them that way, as do other ISPs. We can't make the internet kid-safe anymore than we can make the world kid-safe. Parents can, first, parent their kids, and, second, raise kids who aren't unaware of the dangers and have the tools to make good choices. That's all we can ask of any of them. Some kids are still gonna screw up...

Just a clue here for you folks who can't seem to understand this: Good parents can raise kids who chose to turn bad.

Yes -- and bad parents sometimes (more often than we credit) raise good kids. I hate the plea for sympathy that runs "I grew up in a bad neighborhood/had bad parents/a child of divorce/etc" crap. Plenty of kids come out of bad neighborhoods, and don't deal drugs, don't join gangs and don't get in trouble. Plenty of kids come from bad family situations and somehow manage to become productive members of society. Plenty of kids weather a divorce and become functional adults. And so on...

And I'll still say that good parents are much less likely to raise bad kids!

Infinite

01-26-2007, 12:35 PM

Why would I want that as a private citizen?

Well how else are you going to validate it? You have to ask for it and then pass it to something or someone to validate that it is valid and assigned to the person claiming to be that age and or person.

Worse is you have to do it for every state who's ID's are all different.

Right now if you use a credit card it is just charged for a penny then reversed. If the charge is successful then your address / information matches the card.

We just don't have any system like that for younger than 18.

jks9199

01-26-2007, 12:53 PM

Well how else are you going to validate it? You have to ask for it and then pass it to something or someone to validate that it is valid and assigned to the person claiming to be that age and or person.

Worse is you have to do it for every state who's ID's are all different.

Right now if you use a credit card it is just charged for a penny then reversed. If the charge is successful then your address / information matches the card.

We just don't have any system like that for younger than 18.
Because of juvenile privacy laws, I don't think there's really much of a way to do it with a self-registered site. You mentioned matching IP addresses -- but that's got problems, too. Say I register at work or school, not home; could the IP address be significantly different? Or if I use an ISP service like AOL that assigns a new IP address each time you log on... Or go through a masking site, for various reasons?

I don't think there's a really good way for a web site to verify ages; there are just too many ways around it. I think it's much more practical for parents to be involved. Check out your kid's MySpace page... And check the pages of their friends, too. If your kid has 2 (or more) pages -- they'll probably show up on one of their friends sites... And don't just rely on your kid to show you the site. If you can spend time on a martial arts message board -- you can spend time looking at your kid's MySpace, too!

Infinite

01-26-2007, 01:06 PM

Because of juvenile privacy laws, I don't think there's really much of a way to do it with a self-registered site. You mentioned matching IP addresses -- but that's got problems, too. Say I register at work or school, not home; could the IP address be significantly different? Or if I use an ISP service like AOL that assigns a new IP address each time you log on... Or go through a masking site, for various reasons?

I don't think there's a really good way for a web site to verify ages; there are just too many ways around it. I think it's much more practical for parents to be involved. Check out your kid's MySpace page... And check the pages of their friends, too. If your kid has 2 (or more) pages -- they'll probably show up on one of their friends sites... And don't just rely on your kid to show you the site. If you can spend time on a martial arts message board -- you can spend time looking at your kid's MySpace, too!

All very true points but she was asking us to specifically explore if there WERE options. So I am attempting to and just finding myself not getting any sort of solution.

There is a associate methodology that could be used here... now that we have critical mass on the board we could for example require someone to validate their age in person. Assign dojo's or individuals that volenteer in an area to meet people who are signing up.

That's an extra ordinary level of burden tho.

Once again I'll chew on this and see if I can find a simple way to do this but I'm doubting I am smart enough.

Kreth

01-26-2007, 01:32 PM

All very true points but she was asking us to specifically explore if there WERE options. So I am attempting to and just finding myself not getting any sort of solution.
Maybe in a few years when biometric id systems become more widespread. IBM has been using fingerprint scanners in some of their high-end Thinkpads for a while now. Eventually the other vendors will adopt a standard.

Infinite

01-26-2007, 01:58 PM

Maybe in a few years when biometric id systems become more widespread. IBM has been using fingerprint scanners in some of their high-end Thinkpads for a while now. Eventually the other vendors will adopt a standard.

So who is going to store the master record of who's finger prints are who's? Are you going to submit a digital fingerprint to a central strage facility that can then be quried against to ensure you are who you say you are?

What is to prevent me from registering my finger prints as oh I don't know George W. Bush?

I don't think the biometrics is going to do anything here it just another end point identifier with no central mechanism.

Kreth

01-26-2007, 02:05 PM

So who is going to store the master record of who's finger prints are who's? Are you going to submit a digital fingerprint to a central strage facility that can then be quried against to ensure you are who you say you are?
I suspect that we're moving towards a central database with that information, or something similar. I remember reading an article not long ago about a convenience store chain testing a system that allowed customers to process a bank debit payment with a thumbprint.

Infinite

01-26-2007, 02:13 PM

I suspect that we're moving towards a central database with that information, or something similar. I remember reading an article not long ago about a convenience store chain testing a system that allowed customers to process a bank debit payment with a thumbprint.

One of the reasons I'm moving out of the US :)

I'd rather not need my thumb to buy some milk.

Kreth

01-26-2007, 02:19 PM

One of the reasons I'm moving out of the US :)

I'd rather not need my thumb to buy some milk.
I'm gone if Hillary gets elected. But biometrics is the next logical step from EZPass and other similar systems.

jks9199

01-27-2007, 01:32 PM

One of the reasons I'm moving out of the US :)

I'd rather not need my thumb to buy some milk.
But how will you carry the jug of milk if you leave your thumb at home? :wink:

Seriously -- while I expect a wider range of verification options, I doubt that here in the US, you'll see too much centralization. We still can't get all 50 states to agree on driver's licenses and data formats at the DMV...

As to having someone verify --I belong to a site that does that. It's cumbersome, and ends up taking several hours a week of someone's time. (Actually, several someones.) It's good for some situations, but not perfect. I also know of at least one incident where a reasonably stringent verification process failed...

NDNgirl4ever

02-03-2007, 10:07 PM

If you are thinking about terminating your Myspace account, then you should terminate your account here at MT. Both are the same thing. It is up to the user to choose not to post their name, info, address, or phone number. It is not Myspace's responsibility.
Also, anyone can go to facebook, MartialTalk, Xanga, Gecotities, or any site that allows you to post things and post personal info. It always boils down to common sense.

Sidenote: very little of the population has common sense, so Myspace will be punished because most of its users are idiots.

AoG
Exactly what I was thinking. Why is everyone blaming myspace? It's the users who post everything about themselves and talk to everyone who contacts them that get in trouble. It's people's stupidity, not the site. If your smart about it, you won't get into trouble. Common sense is the key.