Would you have taught differently? If so, how?

[Ceicei]

Disclaimer: Lest this be misunderstood, this is not what is happening to me currently.

Here is a story:

There are some students standing in a martial arts school. The instructor is among the students, holding one as a demonstration.

“This is what we’re going to do.” The instructor states the name of the move. The group repeats the name. Students pair off to practice the move several times over. The instructor then pauses, “What did we just do?” The group repeats the name of the move. “Very good, now we’re going to…” One student asks, “Can you say that again? I cannot hear you.” The instructor looks over and sighs. He repeats saying the name once more. The student tentatively follows and the instructor nods. “Ok, the next one is…”

He continues the same way with the next few moves. There is one move that has an especially difficult long name. The students say the name together. The one student struggles to say this. The instructor waves his hand, “Never mind,” and practices doing the move. At the end of that practice, the group states the name again. The one student is frustrated. “I need to have a way of knowing what it is. I have to see what this is and to make the association.” The instructor replies, “I don’t have time for this.”

The student points out, “You require us to know terminology before we can promote to the next level.”

“Yes, that is true,” says the instructor with a long steady gaze. “This takes too much time. You should not be here.” A long silence stretches to what feels like a minute. With a quiet voice, the student asks, “Are you saying you don’t want me here?” No response from the instructor. A door closes as the student leaves the school.

[Hand Sword]

Yes I would. I would do the same, however, I would walk up and down the pairs, making sure to stop at each one, make corrections, explanations, etc.. Then, once everyone got it, move on to the next technique. If still a problem existed, I would announce that I would go over anything after the class, and try to follow along, as best as possible.

[Haze]

Everyone learns at a different pace and may learn by association in different ways. If one student seems to need more help then it is the instructors "obligation" (if he/she is there to teach and not just be the big kahuna)
to spend time with that student or get one of the more advanced students to work with that student.

[The Kidd]

Everyone has different learning styles, as a teacher you are obligated to provide the best learning environment and present the material the best you can. If the student does not learn you as an instructor must take part if not all the blame.

To slow the process down, less techniques, provide one-on-one instruction, have techniques in writing are all options that could have been used in this scenario.

[terryl965]

If the person is having trouble keeping up in class then I would simply say lets talk about this after class one on one so you can get a better understanding of the tech. and go on from there.

[Cruentus]

My brief answer without knowing more information: The instructor is a jackass, and the student should have walked out and shouldn't go back.

Too often, we accept bad behavior from martial arts instructors based off some weird value/respect system that has been rammed into our skulls from pseudo-tradition and made-up ethics; making us willing to put up with bad behaviors that we would never accept in the real world.

Well, people shouldn't tolerate things in the "dojo" that they wouldn't tolerate outside of the dojo. If one needs to know if a behavior should be tolerated from a martial arts instructor or "high ranked" person, one just needs to ask, "In what circumstance would this be acceptable outside of the school environment?" If the answer is, "No circumstance, really," then you have your answer...

[bydand]

My brief answer without knowing more information: The instructor is a jackass, and the student should have walked out and shouldn't go back.

Too often, we accept bad behavior from martial arts instructors based off some weird value/respect system that has been rammed into our skulls from pseudo-tradition and made-up ethics; making us willing to put up with bad behaviors that we would never accept in the real world.

Well, people shouldn't tolerate things in the "dojo" that they wouldn't tolerate outside of the dojo. If one needs to know if a behavior should be tolerated from a martial arts instructor or "high ranked" person, one just needs to ask, "In what circumstance would this be acceptable outside of the school environment?" If the answer is, "No circumstance, really," then you have your answer...

My thoughts EXACTLY.

[Grenadier]

This was handled poorly on both sides, in my opinion, although I suspect that the story needs to be a bit more complete.

On one hand, it's the teacher's duty to somehow reach the students as best as he can. Not all students are going to be good ones, and there will always be some who have problems learning. In these cases, sometimes being blunt with a student might not be the best, especially if that student takes things too personally.

It's also up to the instructor to try his best to make sure that the student gets the message, as long as the rest of the class does not get bogged down. Such an instructor shouldn't get upset at a student not knowing the terminology, when he could have simply spoken with him outside of class.

On the other hand, if the student were already required to have known these names, then he should have done some more studying. If he were unfamiliar with the names, and didn't like the fact that he did not know them, then he should simply do some more reading, and be prepared for it the next time.


It would be unfair to the rest of the class, if a teacher has to take extra time to explain terminology to a student, when the student can do this on his own outside of class.

[exile]

My brief answer without knowing more information: The instructor is a jackass, and the student should have walked out and shouldn't go back.

Too often, we accept bad behavior from martial arts instructors based off some weird value/respect system that has been rammed into our skulls from pseudo-tradition and made-up ethics; making us willing to put up with bad behaviors that we would never accept in the real world.

Well, people shouldn't tolerate things in the "dojo" that they wouldn't tolerate outside of the dojo. If one needs to know if a behavior should be tolerated from a martial arts instructor or "high ranked" person, one just needs to ask, "In what circumstance would this be acceptable outside of the school environment?" If the answer is, "No circumstance, really," then you have your answer...

My thoughts EXACTLY.

And mine as well. I've taught at university since the mid-1980s. One of the things we tell each other is that it's easy to look like a good instructor when you're teaching people who already know the material, or who are extremely quick on the uptake. What makes you a genuinely good instructor is your success in communicating to students who aren't that quick the gist of important ideas and ways of thinking. In a great vintage year, even so-so winemakers can produce excellent wines; the great winemakers are the ones who can make great wines even in off years. And so on.

Sure, there are people who can't `get' difficult material of certain kinds—they just don't have whatever gift is necessary to grasp abstract concepts. Even in those cases, though, a good instructor will be patient and try to ensure that the student can take away from the class as much as s/he is capable of absorbing. But this isn't one of those cases, it doesn't sound like. This is a case where a student had trouble with a bit of terminology. The instructor didn't have time to help them?? Probably no more than a few minutes of individual attention?? Being an instructor means that helping students learn is what your time if for!

I wish this story were fictional, Ceicei, but I get the feeling from the way you phrased it that it isn't... :(

[Ping898]

In my experience the best teachers of any ciriculum were those that got more annoyed at themselves for not being able to teach me than angry at me for not understanding what they were trying to teach.

I agree with most of the sentiment here that the student was right to walk away...and based upon the given information I don't think that instructor was much of a teacher...

[CoryKS]

This was extremely poorly done on the instructor's part. When the instructor realized the student was having trouble with the name, he should have told the student to stop at the desk after class so the instructor could write it down, and then assign the student homework to memorize it before next class. That way, both can concentrate on learning the move.

Also, the student should have made the decision to learn the move and ask for the name after class.

But the instructor behaved extremely poorly.

[Tarot]

My brief answer without knowing more information: The instructor is a jackass, and the student should have walked out and shouldn't go back.

Too often, we accept bad behavior from martial arts instructors based off some weird value/respect system that has been rammed into our skulls from pseudo-tradition and made-up ethics; making us willing to put up with bad behaviors that we would never accept in the real world.

Well, people shouldn't tolerate things in the "dojo" that they wouldn't tolerate outside of the dojo. If one needs to know if a behavior should be tolerated from a martial arts instructor or "high ranked" person, one just needs to ask, "In what circumstance would this be acceptable outside of the school environment?" If the answer is, "No circumstance, really," then you have your answer...

Ditto what he said. :asian:

The instructor acted like a fool. And to hear about such behavior is upsetting.

Personally I do not like very rigid strict classes. I don't learn well in them. One of the main questions I asked when looking for a school was, "Can I ask questions during class?". The majority of schools I went to check out said no. No questions during class. Only after.

This to me makes no sense at all. Why not ask a question while you are currently doing the move? To me the information would seem to stick better if it was given during the teaching.

I was told it would disrupt class. Disrupt class from what? Learning? Isn't that what learning is, expanding one's mind and be allowed to ask questions?

Barking out a move and having students do it without being allowed to explore the move and ask questions to understand it better, doesn't seem like a teaching/learning experience. That just seems like parroting to me. I personally would never be able to thrive in such an environment.

[MA-Caver]

Everyone has different learning styles, as a teacher you are obligated to provide the best learning environment and present the material the best you can. If the student does not learn you as an instructor must take part if not all the blame.

To slow the process down, less techniques, provide one-on-one instruction, have techniques in writing are all options that could have been used in this scenario.

Agreed, not everyone can learn exactly the same way or at the same time. Some instructors can think they've not the time nor requirements to cater to one student if they're not getting it during a group class. It is IMO the responisblity of both instructor AND student to remember what (the student) was having difficulty with and go over it during private instruction/lessons.
Patience and understanding and trying different methods of getting a person to understand/learn is the mark of a good instructor IMO.
Afterall, isn't that what you're being PAID to do?

[almost a ghost]

After reading that two things popped into mind about the student:

1. That student has a slight hearing problem, much like mine, which requires me to occasionaly ask a person to repeat themselves, especially if it's words I don't hear on a regular basis.

2. Or they are left brained, like a person who can give you precise direction on how to get to a restaraunt, but can never recall the name as such a place

It's up the instructor is be patient and aware while instructing.

What would of I done? I would have had the student write down the techiniques if they weren't already on paper and give the student the names the next time they came in. Students should already be taking notes post class.

Of course the rule of thumb is, kicking that student out he probably told 10 people that the place is horrible, but taking 5 minutes after class to help that particular student the next day he'll probably tell 3 people how good you are the next day.

[tellner]

Ditto to what everyone else has said so far, especially Exile. I'd add that the "instructor", and I use the word loosely, isn't a teacher. He's standing up in front with the black belt and the title, but he's completely forgotten what he's there for. His job is to help the students learn. If they're not learning he needs to change what he's doing, not humiliate the students who are interested enough to ask for help.

And terminology? What's more important, that the students remember some obscure phrase in a language they don't speak or that they learn the material? If he really didn't have the time to help a student who asked for it he could have just said "Don't worry about it. A few thousand more times and you'll remember the words."

Putz.

[King]

:/ hmm that scenario hurts, but I guess it can happen. To me a teacher that cannot teach is the one at fault. I can see different ways of fixing this scenario instead of the stated outcome. As some has been posted already...
-Offer extra help after class.
-Offer one on one sessions.
-Pair him/her up with an advanced student.
-Pull him/her to the front of the class.
-Make the class/explanations simpler.
-Give hand outs with the terms/phrases needed for grading.
-(or)Allow them to take notes.

I feel that different students require special needs and they should not be singled out or turned away if they are willing to learn.

[Kacey]

As has been said, the instructor handled things badly.

My instructor teaches in a gym that has a lot of background noise, especially from the lights - it's an actual college gym, with the round lights on the ceiling, and they buzz; it's really annoying - so we are always asking him to repeat himself, even those of us who've been around a while (nearly 20 years, in my case) and he always does; he also usually demonstrates what he wants, especially with the juniors; with the seniors, he often gives us odd commands to see if we can figure them out.

I don't generally have that problem where I teach, but neither would I move on if a student didn't hear what I said. If there is any doubt in my mind that the student(s) know/understand what I said, I will also demonstrate the technique and ask students to name the technique individually, rather than as a group. Also, while I expect students to try first if it's something they've done before, I ask for questions regularly - usually between sets of line drills, before I move onto something else, and have used multiple means of getting vocabulary across, including showing it to the student in the book.

This has been alluded to previously in this thread - but not all black belts know how to teach. Knowing the material thoroughly does not mean that one is capable of instructing; instructing is a skill that, like so many other skills, comes naturally to some, with practice to others, with difficulty to still others, and not at all to some. This is why so many of the threads about choosing a school discuss the instructor in great detail.

[Carol]

I've got the left-brain disease that Almost a Ghost refers to.

I find martial arts class to be about as confusing as most people would be when I talk about how an MTPL3 outage means an SSP is no longer visible on the network and how, even when a reconnection is quickly done, restoring the routes takes much more time.

My style of learning and thinking is very different. Sometimes I have to explain something to an engineer and I can explain a situation like I did above. Other times, I have to explain a situation to a person that isn't very technical such as a manager or executive. If I give an engineering explanation, the person may not understand, and tell me so.

I can then (a) interact with the person to see how they learn and try to adjust my communications style appropriately.

Or, I can (b) point out to the person that he is in high tech, after all, and that he needs to change his way of thinking to be in this business.

In the business field I'm in, (b) would be unacceptable. However in certain martial arts fields, (b) is totally acceptable.

The is certainly a responsibility for the non-technical person to learn and possibly take additional steps of his own.. But the greater responsibility would fall upon me to make sure the person can understand.

So for me in class, it is very frustrating for me to not be able to learn something (which happens all the time). I often express willingness to take an occasional private here and there or to get with one of the senior students after class to go over some notes, or even by surfing MartialTalk to familiarize myself with the foreign terms. :D

BUt my frustration is deepend by those folks that choose not to assist me but simply dismiss me by telling me that it is my style of thinking/learning is what needs to change.

So, would I have approached the situation differently? Yes. Whether I was a student or an instructor, I would have opened up a lot more conversation outside of class about where the problems were and what could be done about them.

[wade]

Ceicei, a question if you would.......

Was the student: A. slow
B. hard of hearing or deaf
c. Very intelligent but thinks differently than others
D. other

The reason is ask is that I am hard of hearing, wear aids in both ears and I do have problems in group settings because of back ground noise and other things.

I have a student that is a lawyer, he is very intelligent but has a lot of trouble in class because of the way he looks at things. His grasp of some very basic forms, self defense etc gets very twisted and it confuses and frustrates him a lot.

I have another student, while very willing is a little slow.

I have to handle them all differently to get my point across. Anyway, in your original scenario you didn't say why the student was having trouble just the she was. So could you clear this up for me because obviously I'm not getting it.

Thanks

BTW, you are right, the silence is deafening.

[CoryKS]

I find martial arts class to be about as confusing as most people would be when I talk about how an MTPL3 outage means an SSP is no longer visible on the network and how, even when a reconnection is quickly done, restoring the routes takes much more time.

I love it when you talk nerdy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Infinite]

I love it when you talk nerdy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Stop that your stealing my schtick to get rep points when ever she has them to give ;)

and sadly I get what she was saying la sigh former tier 1 routing engineer.

course now I'm a security architect so :) we all go someplace.

[bluemtn]

I love it when you talk nerdy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif


Carol's not nerdy- just smarter than us when it comes to those sorts of things! If she didn't know what she does, where would she be now, I wonder? Sorry- I'll NEVER get off topic again! I promise!

[Carol]

Carol's not nerdy- just smarter than us when it comes to those sorts of things!

Nah, I'm nerdy. Geeky too.



If she didn't know what she does, where would she be now, I wonder?

I'd be FIRED!!! :D :D

[bluemtn]

Nah, I'm nerdy. Geeky too.



I'd be FIRED!!! :D :D


We still like you, irregardless of what you consider yourself to be!

[Kacey]

Nah, I'm nerdy. Geeky too.



I'd be FIRED!!! :D :D

The real question is - would you have been hired in the first place?

Okay, back to the topic of the thread... students are individuals and should be treated as such. Yes, discipline needs to exist, and yes, a certain amount of standardization needs to be in place - but that should not prevent an instructor from meeting the needs of students who don't fit the standardization; that is a fault far more with the instructor - and his/her instructor - than anyone else. Yes, many people were not trained this way - but there comes a time when you must discard traditional methods if they don't work, and the situation Ceicei described is clearly an instance in which traditional methods are ineffective, to the detriment of the student described, the other students in the class (and how likely will they be to ask questions in the future, I wonder?), and the class/club/school as a whole.

[tellner]

Once again, is the teacher there for the students, or are the students there for the teacher? The answer to that one question determines what sort of school it is. In this case, the answer was obvious, and the student did exactly the right thing.

[exile]

Ceicei, a question if you would.......

Was the student: A. slow
B. hard of hearing or deaf
c. Very intelligent but thinks differently than others
D. other

The reason is ask is that I am hard of hearing, wear aids in both ears and I do have problems in group settings because of back ground noise and other things.

I have a student that is a lawyer, he is very intelligent but has a lot of trouble in class because of the way he looks at things. His grasp of some very basic forms, self defense etc gets very twisted and it confuses and frustrates him a lot.

I have another student, while very willing is a little slow.

I have to handle them all differently to get my point across. Anyway, in your original scenario you didn't say why the student was having trouble just the she was. So could you clear this up for me because obviously I'm not getting it.



Okay, back to the topic of the thread... students are individuals and should be treated as such. Yes, discipline needs to exist, and yes, a certain amount of standardization needs to be in place - but that should not prevent an instructor from meeting the needs of students who don't fit the standardization; that is a fault far more with the instructor - and his/her instructor - than anyone else. Yes, many people were not trained this way - but there comes a time when you must discard traditional methods if they don't work, and the situation Ceicei described is clearly an instance in which traditional methods are ineffective, to the detriment of the student described, the other students in the class (and how likely will they be to ask questions in the future, I wonder?), and the class/club/school as a whole.

These two posts are getting at the same critical thing—the fact that an instructor who wants to teach (as opposed to just lecture) has to take into account the fact that every individual has specific strengths and weaknesses that they bring to the task of learning. In using the work `weakness', you understand I hope I'm making no judgments except the obvious one involving the ease/difficulty scale: an impairment of the sort Wade describes in his hearing, and which I'm finding more and more in my own, is going to make things harder, not easier, no matter who you are or what you're doing, pretty much. A good teacher will try to address the student's problems in a way which works `around' that student's particular weaknesses. When I taught skiing, for example, I found that some students were excessively fearful; getting them to confront the fall line, even on an easy slope, requires a different approach than that needed for a student who lacks the coordination to project his/her weight from one ski to the other to get the turn going. It was assumed that you would have as many different obstacles to overcome, as an instructor, as there were students in you class (maybe more!). I'd have lasted exactly ten minutes on the hill if I'd done what this particular instructor did.

Harshness has no more place in a contemporary North American dojo/dojang than a ruler across the knuckles does for a student having trouble with multiplication in grade school. I'm not making a judgment about other times and places. But there's no excuse for that sort of attitude now, here.

[Touch Of Death]

Once again, is the teacher there for the students, or are the students there for the teacher? The answer to that one question determines what sort of school it is. In this case, the answer was obvious, and the student did exactly the right thing.I understand an instructor getting rid of a student that refuses to do the work.
Sean

[Cruentus]

The problem is the whole "I don't have time for this" and "you shouldn't be here" comments. If the student was beligerent and inturrupting class, I could understand telling the student that this is taking away from the other students, and that the question will have to wait until after class. But in what circumstance would it be O.K. in any classroom setting to tell a student in front of everyone that "you shouldn't be here,"??

We don't know the circumstance. Obviously this situation is way worse if the student has an impairment, like a hearing impairment for example. At that point everyone in the entire class should have grown a set and walked out. But maybe the student has a history of being a "problem student." Well, that makes the instructors behavior a little more understandable, yet still unacceptable. If you are going to kick a student out of your program, the professional thing to do would be to do this in private and not in front of everyone.

So in any case, the instructors behavior was unacceptable, and the student shouldn't waste his/her money. And martial arts students shouldn't get caught up in the faux-ethics of the pseudo-traditional martial arts world, and put up with things that they wouldn't ordinarily put up with in the real world.

[exile]

...the faux-ethics of the pseudo-traditional martial arts world...

Beautiful phrase!—it captures exactly what I was trying to get at about the importation of a culturally accepted harshness from one time and place to a radically different culture—our own—where that kind of behavior makes no sense. Tokugawa castle-era ethics belong in the Tokugawa castle era...

[jks9199]

The problem is the whole "I don't have time for this" and "you shouldn't be here" comments. If the student was beligerent and inturrupting class, I could understand telling the student that this is taking away from the other students, and that the question will have to wait until after class. But in what circumstance would it be O.K. in any classroom setting to tell a student in front of everyone that "you shouldn't be here,"??

We don't know the circumstance. Obviously this situation is way worse if the student has an impairment, like a hearing impairment for example. At that point everyone in the entire class should have grown a set and walked out. But maybe the student has a history of being a "problem student." Well, that makes the instructors behavior a little more understandable, yet still unacceptable. If you are going to kick a student out of your program, the professional thing to do would be to do this in private and not in front of everyone.

So in any case, the instructors behavior was unacceptable, and the student shouldn't waste his/her money. And martial arts students shouldn't get caught up in the faux-ethics of the pseudo-traditional martial arts world, and put up with things that they wouldn't ordinarily put up with in the real world.
Over all, I agree with the folks saying that the instructor definitely could have handled this better, given the scant details we've got here. (Details that are missing could effect my opinion, like if the student is having problems every class, or is holding up training until they get the name of the technique. And tone of voice could be an issue, too.)

But -- I've also told students more than once to shut up, stop trying to "understand" and do the exercise I'm telling them to. Sometimes, students get bogged down in "understanding" or "memorizing" or what something is called or some other detail, and they don't follow directions and do the exercise.

[Ceicei]

Ceicei, a question if you would.......

Was the student: A. slow
B. hard of hearing or deaf
c. Very intelligent but thinks differently than others
D. other

Anyway, in your original scenario you didn't say why the student was having trouble just the she was. So could you clear this up for me because obviously I'm not getting it.

Thanks

Wade,
In this story, the student is deaf. For the sake of the story, let's say there weren't very much written material about this martial art, so the research part regarding the terminology would be difficult to do.

One student asks, “Can you say that again? I cannot hear you.”

- Ceicei

[tellner]

I understand an instructor getting rid of a student that refuses to do the work.
Sean

Certainly. I can't do anything but spit on a teacher who refuses to take a moment for a diligent student who is having difficulties picking something up.

[wade]

Thank you Ceicei, that's what I thought but there were so many other types of responses that I wanted to make sure before I said anything. In 2002 I was in Dallas TX for a senior master certification course put on by the USTU. All the instructors were Koreans with (my opinion) very poor English speaking skills. The were teaching in large hotel rooms and speaking very softly (once again my opinion) with no sound systems. When I complained I was told to suck it up and stop wasting their time. It wasn't until I mentioned the American Disabilities act and threatened legal action that the finally did something to help me. So I can appreciate where you are coming from. I have complete deaf boy in my class right now. If I let him he tends to stand there with a blank look on his face, I don't. I can't sign but I can use hand gestures and things like that. I also have other more advanced students work with him one on one. This tends to get the message across to him of what I want and expect. If he wants to train and learn this system I am bound and determined he will.

[Cruentus]

Wade,
In this story, the student is deaf. For the sake of the story, let's say there weren't very much written material about this martial art, so the research part regarding the terminology would be difficult to do.


- Ceicei

See. Now to me, the fact that the student is deaf makes the situation far worse. Like I said before, I think everyone should have told the instructor to go **** himself, and left.

[tellner]

What Cruentus said

[Ceicei]

Well, this story is supposed to be hypothetical.

The point is not who (names of the people) or what (style), but how this (the situation) could be handled.

That said, I will put in some of my thoughts. Could the student have handled this better and demonstrated more patience and less sensitivity to the reactions of others? Could the instructor demonstrated more patience and a willingness to help? Sure, the responsibility for this would be on both the student and the instructor. Either way, this requires time from both of them.

The student could "help the instructor learn how to help". It is not easy for an instructor to know how best to help someone who may have a challenge, whatever it may be. The student usually knows what strategies works for him/her to learn. However, frustration can easily hinder the ability to be able to think of available options. While some written materials may not be available, the student could have put in more effort to sit down with the instructor and brainstorm ways of getting the information in a written or visual way.

The instructor could take the time to sit down and do more research about the particular challenges faced by his students. He could have viewed this as an opportunity to make his martial art more accessible. If there is not much written material available, this could be an interesting project that he can do, not just to help his one student, but to enhance the knowledge of his other students and himself. He could sit down with the student and brainstorm ideas of how to assist the student in understanding the terminology better.

I have more thoughts about this, but will need to come back to this and discuss further.

- Ceicei

[Kacey]

The student could "help the instructor learn how to help".

This depends in large part on the student. If the student is an adult, one would hope the student has the skills necessary to do just that - but the way you presented it sounded pretty demeaning to the student, and why should someone pay for instruction to be demeaned? Also, while that would be the moral high ground for a student, it should not be necessary - which doesn't mean it isn't necessary in a wide variety of circumstances - but were I that student, I would be much more willing to teach an instructor how to deal with my particular difficulties if I had the impression the instructor valued my presence.

If the student is a child, then the instructor's response is unconscionable. Children should not have to teach adults how to teach them.


The instructor could take the time to sit down and do more research about the particular challenges faced by his students.
And, IMHO, the instructor should have done just that. I get frustrated by my students at times, certainly - but I do my damnedest to not show that frustration to my students - and that includes a man who has been in my class 5 or 6 years, who has CP, a developmental delay (IQ roughly 65), and poor social skills. He drives me nuts on occasion - but I don't tell him that, and I do my best to not let him see it. His disability is not his fault, and he does the best he can - and I can't ask anything more than that. There was a lot of trial and error, and a lot of checking with other special ed professionals like the occupational therapist, when he started my class - especially since his parents wouldn't tell me anything beyond "he has special needs" - but he's still there... and he's the only person I know who had his contract not renewed at a well-known McDojo in the area, because of the difficulties inherent in teaching him, and the level of disruption he can cause.

[Ceicei]

but were I that student, I would be much more willing to teach an instructor how to deal with my particular difficulties if I had the impression the instructor valued my presence.
I will agree with that. In this particular situation, the student evidently doesn't need, nor have to, teach the instructor who isn't willing to listen and do more than the bare minimum.
but the way you presented it sounded pretty demeaning to the student, and why should someone pay for instruction to be demeaned?Is your objection to the word "help" or do you think I am implying the request for help as an obligation? What is demeaning about "helping another learn how to help"? Would you have wanted this to be phrased in a different way? Help doesn't need to be an expression of weakness. Rather, I think that acknowledging the limitations and and seeking for ways to work with these limitations are an admission of strength. Some people are more capable of doing this than others and may have the ability to convey some ideas.

As you've said, age and capabilities make a big difference in whether a student can contribute to the solution.


If the student is a child, then the instructor's response is unconscionable. Children should not have to teach adults how to teach them.

I agree wholeheartedly with this part. Children should not have to teach adults how to teach, yet a wise teacher will indirectly find ways of learning from the children how to teach them what they need to progress.

- Ceicei

[Kacey]

I will agree with that. In this particular situation, the student evidently doesn't need, nor have to, teach the instructor who isn't willing to listen and do more than the bare minimum. Is your objection to the word "help" or do you think I am implying the request for help as an obligation? What is demeaning about "helping another learn how to help"? Would you have wanted this to be phrased in a different way? Help doesn't need to be an expression of weakness. Rather, I think that acknowledging the limitations and and seeking for ways to work with these limitations are an admission of strength. Some people are more capable of doing this than others and may have the ability to convey some ideas.

I was looking at the original post - particularly the bolded parts:


“This is what we’re going to do.” The instructor states the name of the move. The group repeats the name. Students pair off to practice the move several times over. The instructor then pauses, “What did we just do?” The group repeats the name of the move. “Very good, now we’re going to…” One student asks, “Can you say that again? I cannot hear you.” The instructor looks over and sighs. He repeats saying the name once more. The student tentatively follows and the instructor nods. “Ok, the next one is…”

He continues the same way with the next few moves. There is one move that has an especially difficult long name. The students say the name together. The one student struggles to say this. The instructor waves his hand, “Never mind,” and practices doing the move. At the end of that practice, the group states the name again. The one student is frustrated. “I need to have a way of knowing what it is. I have to see what this is and to make the association.” The instructor replies, “I don’t have time for this.”

The student points out, “You require us to know terminology before we can promote to the next level.”

“Yes, that is true,” says the instructor with a long steady gaze. “This takes too much time. You should not be here.” A long silence stretches to what feels like a minute. With a quiet voice, the student asks, “Are you saying you don’t want me here?” No response from the instructor. A door closes as the student leaves the school.


If I were told I should not be somewhere because I asked for help because I was paying attention and trying and still not getting it, and it annoyed the instructor to the point that s/he says “This takes too much time. You should not be here.” then I would find that demeaning - not because I asked for help, but because the instructor felt my need to be excessive simply because my learning style did not match the instructor's teaching style - so I find it demeaning for the student to be treated that way - not for the student to be asking for help. I'm sorry if I was not clear in what I was referring to; when I read/post at work, I only have 30 minutes, and post while eating, so sometimes I type too fast or leave things out.

If the student needed help because s/he was choosing to not pay attention, that's a whole other issue, for another thread.

[Ceicei]

I was looking at the original post - particularly the bolded parts:

If I were told I should not be somewhere because I asked for help because I was paying attention and trying and still not getting it, and it annoyed the instructor to the point that s/he says “This takes too much time. You should not be here.” then I would find that demeaning - not because I asked for help, but because the instructor felt my need to be excessive simply because my learning style did not match the instructor's teaching style - so I find it demeaning for the student to be treated that way - not for the student to be asking for help. I'm sorry if I was not clear in what I was referring to; when I read/post at work, I only have 30 minutes, and post while eating, so sometimes I type too fast or leave things out.

If the student needed help because s/he was choosing to not pay attention, that's a whole other issue, for another thread.Thank you for the clarification on what you meant as demeaning. I see what you're saying and I agree with you.

- Ceicei

[wade]

Hey Ceicei, I want to apologize. Sometimes I am slow to catch on to things and I appreciate you pointing out to me how obvious it was that the student in the story was deaf. I will try not to let that happen again.

[Ceicei]

Hey Ceicei, I want to apologize. Sometimes I am slow to catch on to things and I appreciate you pointing out to me how obvious it was that the student in the story was deaf. I will try not to let that happen again.

Wade,
No apology needed. It really wasn't that obvious in the story anyway because "I cannot hear you" doesn't necessarily signify deafness. It could be, as you pointed out, a result of background noise or some other factor.

I kept the story as simple as possible because I wanted to generate discussion with a focus upon how the situation might be handled better and share different perspectives.

- Ceicei

[MJS]

Disclaimer: Lest this be misunderstood, this is not what is happening to me currently.

Here is a story:

There are some students standing in a martial arts school. The instructor is among the students, holding one as a demonstration.

“This is what we’re going to do.” The instructor states the name of the move. The group repeats the name. Students pair off to practice the move several times over. The instructor then pauses, “What did we just do?” The group repeats the name of the move. “Very good, now we’re going to…” One student asks, “Can you say that again? I cannot hear you.” The instructor looks over and sighs. He repeats saying the name once more. The student tentatively follows and the instructor nods. “Ok, the next one is…”

He continues the same way with the next few moves. There is one move that has an especially difficult long name. The students say the name together. The one student struggles to say this. The instructor waves his hand, “Never mind,” and practices doing the move. At the end of that practice, the group states the name again. The one student is frustrated. “I need to have a way of knowing what it is. I have to see what this is and to make the association.” The instructor replies, “I don’t have time for this.”

The student points out, “You require us to know terminology before we can promote to the next level.”

“Yes, that is true,” says the instructor with a long steady gaze. “This takes too much time. You should not be here.” A long silence stretches to what feels like a minute. With a quiet voice, the student asks, “Are you saying you don’t want me here?” No response from the instructor. A door closes as the student leaves the school.





Very poor actions on the instructors part IMO. First, perhaps before he continued on too far, he should've made sure that everyone could hear him. I don't think saying something like, "Ok everyone, we're going to get started now. Can everyone hear me ok?"

Second, before the demo bagan, perhaps he should've made sure that everyone was familiar with the terms that were being used. If there was a term that was unfamiliar to someone, he should've taken the time to say it slowly, making sure everyone understood. If he didn't have time for this, as he stated, perhaps he should'nt have been conducting the demo in the first place.

Third, everyone learns at a different pace. If its taking too much time, as he stated, then perhaps he should've taken more time to prepare everyone. No need to make someone feel bad like he did. I have to wonder if the student ever returned.

Mike

[tradrockrat]

Sorry - there is no justification whatsoever for the instructor to act that way. If the student was a complete jackass he STILL should not have handled it that way.

But the truth is that instructor is missing the whole point - he is no teacher.

A students job is to learn - the student in this case was trying to do his job.

A teachers job is to teach - the instructor couldn't be bothered to once that job actually became - gasp - work (couldn't be bothered? No time?)!

BTW - As many know, I am a Special Ed teacher and I get sick of hearing stories like this. Just because you know something doesn't make you a teacher. This instructor needs a heavy dose of reality. If I had been training there I would have walked out right behind that student after a few choice words about how I felt. There are a million ways to fix this situation and most would only require five minutes after class with the student.

[tellner]

Tradrockrat, you've nailed it. If you're ever in Portland the first beer is on me.

[tradrockrat]

Tradrockrat, you've nailed it. If you're ever in Portland the first beer is on me.

mmmmm beer... Portland has good micro brews so I've been told.
Thanks and I'll let you know if I ever get up that way :)

[jdinca]

If the person is having trouble keeping up in class then I would simply say lets talk about this after class one on one so you can get a better understanding of the tech. and go on from there.

Ditto.