Conditioning the body by striking it?

[Bouseki Rage]

Hello everybody, this is my first real post and I tried to search through the previous other threads to make sure this question hasn't been answered but I haven't seen it taken apart and simply analyzed on its own. Don't flame me if I missed something, haha:angel:

I am not new to the martial arts so forgive me if I have many preconceived notions , I realli am just out to learn more

What I'm talking about is striking the body to condition the muscles to take more pain, specifically in the area of the abdomen. My question entered my mind during a group class where my chief instructor had us line up across from each other to work on targetting for our kicks. On his go, we would throw one kick at each others solar plexus and try our best to nail the right spot while not delivering too much power to hurt the guy but enough so that they could feel it.

My problem is I am definitely not a big guy, more of a small speedster, so when I have my fellow class mates who are twice my size and weight strike me in the solar or the general core, a weak kick to them feels like its doing quite a bit of damage to me, at least forcing me to reassert my footing. I did not enjoy this exercise and was even less thrilled about it when we ended class the same way the following day. Am I just not giving it a chance?

My own personal experience has been me being able to condition my mind to prepare more for the blow, whether it be a kick or a punch or what not, but not my body. The experience of the strike has always seemed consistent, and even with exhaling properly and at the right time and contracting my core, I can't see this as an effective way to condition the body. I'd really like to get other perspectives and experiences with conditioning by striking the body, my experiment was really rather short(2 weeks of striking my general abdomen) and though some people might see the comparison to iron shirt training or what not, that's not what I'm realli getting at

Is striking the body the best way to condition for the real thing? or is it better left to crunches and ab workouts and the like? Is conditioning the mind mentally in this fashion important or is there a better what? I'm really open to new information:)

[bushidomartialarts]

that sort of conditioning is old school: effective but not the most effective, likely to cause injury if done wrong, appealing to a certain sort of person.

one advantage is that it will force you to kiai at the point of impact. a good kiai just as your partner's foot hits you will go a long way toward lessening the feel of the impact.

also, you should feel free to tell your partner to ease off a mite. tell him you're still getting the hang of this exercise. if he's at all a human being, he'll understand.

[still learning]

Hello, In boxing,mix martial art fighting, FOOTBALL....it takes a few months to condition the body for impacts (HITS).

If you are going into full contact these drills will train your body for pain and toughen the body.

How much will always be in question........to condition the hands,football, and rest of the body? ........Each school/Instuctor will teach the way they learn from there teachers.

There is a full contact school a few miles away...with very few students....after awhile most of the students do not like to get bust-up. Many leave and never go back.





As a martial artist...we need to have a level of condition....what is require
will vary school to school.........


Ouch! aaaagg,...that hurts! ....bang! , boom, slap..punch,,hooked,thrown down......OK lets do it again? The art of taking IT! No pain ---NO gain!

Aspirin works............Aloha

[chris_มวยไทย]

Aspirin works............Aloha


lol

[The Kidd]

Is it a way to condition the body and the mind, Yes, is it the best way, No. Depends on what your aim is, if your training for pure fitness or stress relief purposes then it may not be necessary but if you intend to defend yourself then it may have benifits to condition yourself. Alot like sparring yes you spar to practice technique but a side benifit is that you condition yourself to not fear being hit so much.

[King]

:/

"Is striking the body the best way to condition for the real thing? or is it better left to crunches and ab workouts and the like?"

In my opinion, both. I find that ab workout only does half the job. Plus the core is the most underestimated part of the body. You'll know what I mean when somebody KOs you with a body shot. Take my word for it, it's not pleasant. First find the reason why you are training. Are you in it for competition or will be taking a lot of hits? Well if you are then there is no other way to learn how to take hits other than to take them. You can't expect to take/defend a strike if you don't practice it. However if competition is not your thing, then you shouldn't worry about it too much.


"Is conditioning the mind mentally in this fashion important or is there a better what?"

What do you mean by conditioning the mind? That term always confuses me. When I go against an opponent I let lose and enjoy it. If I keep worrying about being hit it hurts more. You just have to accept that you will be hit and that is empowering. The point is you just have to inflict more hurt on the other person while standing your ground.

"a weak kick to them feels like its doing quite a bit of damage to me, at least forcing me to reassert my footing. I did not enjoy this exercise"

Do you see having to reassert your footing as losing? Don't worry about those details. Being kicked by a bigger opponent does that. Happens to me a lot too, the point is you keep smiling and come back. Just relax your body and let the force travel through you. If you tighten up you absorb and take damage.

[Randy Strausbaugh]

I've never really gotten into the notion of training to take strikes that way. Maybe it's just me, but the reason I first got into martial arts was for self defense, but going with this method it seems like you would get beaten up more in training than you ever would "on the street". JMHO

I am also reminded of the old story of the boxer Max Baer. It was said that to prepare for a fight he had people strike him in the head for conditioning. He stopped when he started hearing the phone ring when there was no phone around. I know that the body is different, but I can't help feeling that it can't be good for you, just the same. Again, JMHO.

[Drac]

Hello, In boxing,mix martial art fighting, FOOTBALL....it takes a few months to condition the body for impacts (HITS)...Aspirin works............Aloha

So does Jack Daniels...

[Shotochem]

I used to do quite a bit of that type of training.

Then I got smarter.:) I no longer feel the need to be constantly sore for the mere satisfaction of being able to "Take a Hit". Anyone who trains regularly should be able to take a few shots without any real ill effect.

I now use the time I had spent on conditioning with more cardio and working my blocking and parrying. It's a lot less damaging on the ol' body.

I no longer limp into work with lumps and bruises and I no longer have any nagging injuries. My training and performance are better as a result of it.

[King]

I've never really gotten into the notion of training to take strikes that way. Maybe it's just me, but the reason I first got into martial arts was for self defense, but going with this method it seems like you would get beaten up more in training than you ever would "on the street". JMHO

Ideally that's what most people desire. A style that allows you to defeat your opponents without taking hits. Sounds like fantasy to me though.


I am also reminded of the old story of the boxer Max Baer. It was said that to prepare for a fight he had people strike him in the head for conditioning. He stopped when he started hearing the phone ring when there was no phone around. I know that the body is different, but I can't help feeling that it can't be good for you, just the same. Again, JMHO.

lol that is extreme. But hey, boxers box because it's their job. If they are not willing to take extreme measures to win then somebody else willing to go the distance will take them down. Well it can't be good for you if you go to school and work in an office. But if your work involves eating a lot of punches then you gotta know how to chew them. ha-ha

[Rook]

Personally, I would suggest that you spar with a high level of contact rather than condition by being hit. When you get hit during sparring, the strike and recovery are in context, and that will help you get used to being hit and being able to keep going much more than being struck out of context.

If you want to condition your midsection to take hits, another good idea is to do exercises that strengthen your ability to turn your midsection side to side rather than using bending like crunches. A simple one you can do with no equiptment is to have a partner sit indian style while you do sit ups and strike their right hand with your right and their left hand with your left with a good punch each time you come up. Once you get used to that, I would suggest you contact your doctor to check for back problems, and if there are none, you can do weight exercises that involve side to side.

[Brian King]

Hitting drills should instruct on many levels. Not just tempering the body and a basic understanding of some of the lessons can change the way you train. On a very basic level you are learning to face fear and you are learning about your ego, both as a kicker and as the one doing the kicking. For instance as the one doing the kicking monitor and acknowledge how does it make you feel (what emotions are brought out and intensified) when striking a much smaller person/ much larger person and they collapse or they shrug it off or even enjoy the massage. As the person being kicked monitor how it makes you feel when somebody larger/small than you strikes you much harder than you feel the drill calls for, monitor what emotions are brought forward. It is a very healthy to start being aware of your own tensions and how they affect your work (both the receiving and giving strikes). There are so many little tensions that we face in our daily lives with out even being aware of them or their effect on our work. Learning to recognize the effect of the tensions (our excess body tension, mental tension and also spiritual tension) on our work prepares us to learn how to recognize and exploit or release and heal those around us or in conflict with us.

A couple of examples of tensions many are unaware of such as, the difficulty for many people to hit others. By our partners giving us permission to strike them now means we have to face several fears. One of which is by them giving us permission to strike them we also give them permission to hit us back LOL. Also as martial artists we also have the fear of what if I do not get the effect that I want from the strike, we often disguise and hide this fear by being overly concerned with hurting our partners so strike less honestly, holding back so “as to not cause injury” when in reality we may be holding some reserve so that we can placate our ego when we do not get the desired effect. This is ok as long as you are aware of it and working on it.

Bouseki Rage wrote

“I did not enjoy this exercise and was even less thrilled about it when we ended class the same way the following day.”

There are many times when we just have to suck it up, say this is not going to be a good day for me, but I can get thru it and hopefully learn from some of the lessons being afforded to me. This is also a form of tempering.

Give the drill and your instructor more time and try to be aware of all the different lessons that the drill is trying to expose you to. It does get easier

Bushidomartialarts wrote

“also, you should feel free to tell your partner to ease off a mite. tell him you're still getting the hang of this exercise. if he's at all a human being, he'll understand.”

This is VERY important, as contact received or given harder than the partner is ready for develops fear, and that is exactly the opposite effect that people should be training for. You can learn a lot with light contact moving towards harder contact as understanding deepens. Understand fear do not develop it.

King wrote

“Do you see having to reassert your footing as losing? Don't worry about those details. Being kicked by a bigger opponent does that. Happens to me a lot too, the point is you keep smiling and come back. Just relax your body and let the force travel through you. If you tighten up you absorb and take damage.”

Well said, this has been my experience as well. It is a balance between excess tensions and excess relaxation, that fine line that we explore to find the balance.

Brian

[Andrew Green]

one advantage is that it will force you to kiai at the point of impact. a good kiai just as your partner's foot hits you will go a long way toward lessening the feel of the impact.

I'd call that old school as well ;)

Opening your mouth when someone is hitting you is a bad idea, leads to KO's if the follow up lands on your chin.

As for playing "brick wall" while someone hits you, I'd call it a bad idea. You should learn to absorb the blows by moving with them ("roll with the punches") not standing there and taking the full force of it.

You'd also get more of the muscle building benefits by doing some situps.

Don't get me wrong, you need to get hit, and hit a lot in training, but I don't care for the stand and take it bit at all.

[bigkicks]

My students do conditioning drills once a week. For advanced adult belts only!! These are the students that are scheduled to test red or black by the end of the year and for anyone who is already at that level.

as an instructor it is a HUGE liabilty to subject all students to this old school method of conditioning and this why you hardly see it in todays dojo's. I won't get into the long boring
This is the conditioning drills we do:
50 punches stomach( solar plexes) trying to target diaphram
50 round houses to each side of body, ahnds up for these drills
25 leg kicks to quads and calves, inside and outside.
then 5 min of banging an eskrima stick against shin and forearm.
Muscles and bones will adapt to the stress that you put them through.

However, taking 50-100 shots to the kidneys, spleen, or liver is just stupid. You, or your instructor needs to know where to hit, and where not to hit. SHot placement is KEY!!!!

[still learning]

Hello, One more thing you can do instead of getting hit,punch or kick in practice to condition the body (if you do not want to do this type of training anymore)

Is learn to run fast and faster...and farther than anyone...(must practice regular). .....seeeeeeeyouuuuuuuu....Aloha!

[Brad Dunne]

I will only offer an old saying....................."You reap what you sow"......

[King]

However, taking 50-100 shots to the kidneys, spleen, or liver is just stupid. You, or your instructor needs to know where to hit, and where not to hit. SHot placement is KEY!!!!

Yeah I agree, as with doing anything common sense is key. If it hurts you, you stop. There is discomfort and there is pain. If you get injured while training then it's not training.

[Kneevsface]

I suffer from the same thing as this dude who posted this thread. I can get a full blow knee in the ribs an laghf at it but as soon as its just below my cheast bone i drop like a pansy an i duno why. I train 7 days a week an im goin in the cage soon an i need to get rid of this problem

[Maiden_Ante]

I'm really not sure that KICKING the abdomen would be a good start for beginners. We started with simple punches and then moved on to kicks. The thought behind it is to generate power against the incoming blow, thus reducing the power of the 'real' hit. One such exercise we've had was to do regular kekomi kicks in the chest/stomach hard but not in full speed.

The kicker trained his ability to push away the target with the kick, and the target trained his ability to tense up the right areas of the body to protect himself and simply "go with the blow" and quickly regaining his footing.

I don't think you could condition the majority of your body by this method, but it has certainly been an effective way to practice pain, so to speak.

Of course you can't be immune to knee kick in the ribs, it simply impossible IMO. That's why you should avoid getting hit at all.

[Kneevsface]

Well for one i dont think im a biginer. 12 years has to stand for some thing lol. An yea a knee to the ribs dosent exacly tikle but it dosent exacly hurt ither. My solar plexis is my main issue. I poke my self not even realy that hard an it drills. Im thinkin about going to a doctor to see if its my liver cuse i do love my beer lol

[Bruno@MT]

I suffer from the same thing as this dude who posted this thread. I can get a full blow knee in the ribs an laghf at it but as soon as its just below my cheast bone i drop like a pansy an i duno why. I train 7 days a week an im goin in the cage soon an i need to get rid of this problem

This is normal.

Right under the ribcage where the ribs touch each other is the solar plexus. If you get hit there and the impact is between the lowest ribs in the middle, you drop. There is nothing much you can do about it afaik.

[Twin Fist]

kiai when you get hit. other than that? not much you can do

[MattJ]

Kiai will help a bit, IMHO, but the SP/xyphoid process is not really protected by much muscle. I know schools that train to condition for those strikes, and it seems to be effective, but I think that contact sparring is all that most people need in the way of conditioning.

[Kneevsface]

Ok well ile just man up an take it then lol cheers ppls

[SahBumNimRush]

We practice a similar exercise, but for a different purpose it seems. We practice the partnered roundhouse kicks to the solar plexus for two reasons: to develop accuracy and to develop control. If you can kick super fast and barely make contact exactly where you want, then all you have to do is adjust the depth by a couple of inches to do real damage.

I don't think getting hit hard in the solar plexus is going to be great training on conditioning that part of the body. Anatomically is a weak area, with little muscle mass covering it. It does not take much to create a spasm of the diaphragm (i.e. getting the wind knocked out of you). The key to "conditioning" this area, is not as much crunches/sit ups, but more core muscle conditioning. Crunches/sit ups exercise the rectus abdominis muscles (i.e. the 6 pack), but the muscle belly of these muscles, where there bulk of the mass is does not actually cover the solar plexus.

The Kiai, when done properly does contract both the diaphragm (which prevents spasm) and the core muscles which helps to resist the impact of the kick itself by reinforcing the torso and abdomen.

As for the previous comments pertaining to the danger of the kiai, because of the open mouth danger of being knocked out by a follow up strike.. . The kiai does not require an opening of jaw to be effective to take a blow, only an opening of the lips for the air to leave. The key principle in the Kiai (for the purpose of taking the hit) is to forcefully exhale all air out of your lungs all at once. To do this you must forcefully contract both your core and your diaphragm at the same time, granted it takes alot of practice to develop this muscle coordination/muscle memory.

Albeit there are many other uses for the Kiai beyond this purpose, some of which are much better served with a fully open mouth.

[Tez3]

Ok well ile just man up an take it then lol cheers ppls

I'm not being rude just old but could you post up in what to us oldies is normal English rather than txt speak please? It takes me twice as long to read it :). My daughters laughing at me now!

[blindsage]

Taking shots to the solar plexus will always hurt to some degree, but generally it's only going to drop you if you are inhaling when you get hit. This is part of the reason people kiai in some styles, it part of the reason you hear boxers audibly exhaling when they strike. You don't want to get caught open when you throw a technique and hit in the solar plexus while inhaling, it'll drop you nearly every time. If you're looking to fight in the cage and no one has taught you about breathing, maybe you need a new coach.

[Blade96]

my nidan told me that when we're practicing blocking with our arms or getting kicks its toughening up those places to be used to being struck.

Must be why i could hit my Sempai as hard as i could when blocking a punch from him and his arm while using soto uke and he didnt even bat an eyebrow.