In the process of Typing out the Belt requirements for my instructors school I was reminded of a question that's bugged me for a couple years. (Ever since Gou got his 3rd Brown in Kenpo actually)


The Brown Belts go .....

3rd Brown = Brown belt with 1 strip at ends
2nd Brown = Bown belt with 2 strips at ends
1st Brown = Brown belt with 3 strips at ends

Correct?

I was curious why this is. Why not go reverse the 3rd thru 1st so its 1st brown = 1 strip etc.....

This is a nonimportant question, just something I was curious about. If there were a logical answer besides, "SGM Parker did it that way, So There", I'd enjoy learning about it.

LOL and of course I would be completely mixed up and it is 1st with one strip, but you can correct me on that too.

Thanks

Dot

My understanding is that traditionaly in Japan the Kyu grades (not black) counteed backwords towards 1st black while the Dan ranks counted up from 1st black. That tradition was preserved when the American Kenpo belt system was created/expanded/whatever.

I heard it had something to do with the way Coast Guard ranks
are set up. Dunno for sure though.

bunch o links

Japanese karate

http://24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/19_belts.html

http://24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/belts/belts.html

http://24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/belts/rankhistory.html

Tracey/parker info

http://www.geocities.com/Ishtar786_2000/Beltrequirments.html

So my best answer is that the brown belt stuf came from Japanese karate which borrowed the belt ranking system of Judo. The backwards counting was just tradition that there was no benifit to change so the tradition was retained. That a satisfactory answer?

The belt is borrowed from the Japanese system in the first place so some (not all) traditions apply.

When you begin your training you start at the lowest rank which is an 8th or 10th (depending upon the system) class student and work your way up to the top or 1st position. Much like in music there are chairs. The lowest chair is the 3rd chair then 2nd then the best or 1st chair.
In the Japanese systems, "Kyu" means class for the lower belts. In the Black Belt ranks they use the word "Dan) pronounced don which means step.

Kenpo Belts starts with:

White.............. 9th class student (KuKYU)
Yellow............. 8th class student (HachiKYU)
Orange............. 7th class student (SichiKYU)
Purple............. 6th class student (RokKYU)
Blue............... 5th class student (GoKYU)
Green.............. 4th class student (YonKYU)

3rd Degree Brown... 3rd class student (SanKYU)
2nd Degree Brown... 2nd class student (NiKYU)
1st Degree Brown... 1st class student (IkKYU)

Black Belt Ranks are:
1st Degree Black - ShoDAN
2nd Degree Black - NiDAN
3rd Degree Black - SanDAN
4th Degree Black - YoDAN
5th Degree Black - GoDAN
6th Degree Black - RokkuDAN
7th Degree Black - SichiDAN
8th Degree Black - HachiDAN
9th Degree Black - KuDAN
10th Degree Black - JuDAN

As one increases in Rank ...... so do the stripes so (as an example) in the Navy, if you are a 3rd class seaman - you wear 1 stripe, a 2nd class seaman - would wear 2 stripes and 1st class seaman you would wear 3 stripes.

We utilize this designation for our "LOWER" belts as in the military....... the higher the rank the more the stripes. This continues with the officers....... the more the stars the higher the general. You always start lower to higher. one stripe on up..... the only difference is that we call the lowest brown belt 3rd due classification under step, like in the military lower enlistees vs. officers.

Buttttttttttttttttt....... In the Black Belt Ranks
it works in reverse. The more stripes you have the higher ranked you are. A little confusing .... well possibly but you can see from the Japanese Root belt structure of class vs. steps where the symbolism comes from.

:asian:



Fixed typo at user request - kaith

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

The belt is borrowed from the Japanese system in the first place so some (not all) traditions apply...

Thank you Mr. C.

I had at least one mistake at
http://www.cdouglashall.com/belts.html
so I intend to go fix it now based on your input. Will that will be OK with you?
I hope so. I'll wait on a word from you. I'll quote you as a source of course.
:asian:

:asian:

Thank you everyone for your help, you've really cleared things up and though I would tend to think matching the stripes with the designation would be a lot less confussing, I now understand where it comes from.

Dennis one point..........

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

As one increases in Rank ...... so do the stripes so if you are a 3rd class seaman in the Navy (as an example)you wear 1 stripe 2nd class seaman - 2 stripes and 3rd class seaman 3 stripes.

:asian:

That last part of your explaination, was it suppose to be 1st class seaman 3 stripes? Yes? You have 3rd Class twice so I just wanted to clarify it in my own head. :) It was an excellent explaination. :asian:

Dot

Originally posted by KenpoGirl
Dennis one point..........
That last part of your explaination, was it suppose to be 1st class seaman 3 stripes?
Yes?
You have 3rd Class twice so I just wanted to clarify it in my own head. :) It was an excellent explaination. :asian: Dot


Yes, I will have that corrected ..... sorry.
thanks for catching that.


:shrug:

Fixed :)

Originally posted by KenpoGirl

Thank you everyone for your help, you've really cleared things up and though I would tend to think matching the stripes with the designation would be a lot less confussing, I now understand where it comes from.


I'm with you!

Now get back to worrying about Blue and don't look so damn far ahead!

:eek:

where it gets really confusing is that some kenpo schools do match stripes with belts, and some don't.

If I walk into my old school, I'm a first brown (one stripe).

and now, in my new school, I'm a third brown (one stripe), but same rank... sigh... confusing...

However, as soon as Mr. Grilli gets me a yellow belt, I'm gonna wear that. (I tested for that two weeks ago) I asked them to test me all the way up through the system again, because the new studio does all 154 techniques (old school only had 98) and all the sets and forms (old school only required through long 3, and only set was fingerset). I really don't feel that I have the right to be wearing a brown belt, when their blue belts know so much stuff that I don't, so even though they told me I could keep the brown if I wanted, I want to take it off, because wearing it doesn't feel right. Does that make any sense? What do other people feel about a situation like this?

Originally posted by nightingale8472
Where it gets really confusing is that some kenpo schools do match stripes with belts, and some don't.
If I walk into my old school, I'm a first brown (one stripe).
and now, in my new school, I'm a third brown (one stripe), but same rank... sigh... confusing...


Yes, If they are going to be American Kenpo and claim roots to Ed Parker then they should use the AK traditional belt system and curriculums.

Originally posted by nightingale8472
However, as soon as Mr. Grilli gets me a yellow belt, I'm gonna wear that. (I tested for that two weeks ago) I asked them to test me all the way up through the system again, because the new studio does all 154 techniques (old school only had 98) and all the sets and forms (old school only required through long 3, and only set was fingerset). I really don't feel that I have the right to be wearing a brown belt, when their blue belts know so much stuff that I don't, so even though they told me I could keep the brown if I wanted, I want to take it off, because wearing it doesn't feel right. Does that make any sense? What do other people feel about a situation like this?

I think this is an issue between Mr. Grilli and yourself. If you wish to wear the yellow and retire your old Brown because you feel inferior with the skill and material and are willing to work thru the material again..... then I say wear your yellow and work even harder. There is nothing (better) like wearing a belt you feel deserving of. Yet, there is nothing (worse) than wearing a belt that you do not deserve and you know and feel it. All you can do is become better and more knowledgeable and feel much more confidence in yourself.

I personally salute you and your efforts to seek and learn a higher and more skillful art than your old studio.

Too Bad you can't ship your "attitude" to several of the Black Belts out there that could use a good system enema and demotion to the appropriate rank that they actually deserve vs. what they are currently wearing.

:asian:

What I'm really doing is looking at it as two different systems...

The stuff I was learning before wasn't really the AK system, because it was incomplete. It was someone's adaptation of AK. Therefore, my brown belt wasn't in AK in the first place. Should I ever go back into my old school for a seminar (they have some pretty cool weapons seminars every so often), I'd wear the brown, because that's the rank I am in that system. And I'd have to wear brown in a tournament, because I used to compete so often that most people in my division know I compete at brown level, and would have issues if they saw me competing at yellow.

However, in AK, in my new school, I don't know the material they're teaching, and therefore, I don't have the right to wear the brown rank in that school. I really feel like I'm disrespecting the training of everyone that stands in line behind me because I'm wearing brown and they're wearing blue or purple, because they know a lot of kenpo stuff that I don't.

honestly, I don't see any point in wearing a rank that you don't deserve, because its what's in your brain that counts, not what's tied around your waist. The only reason I like rank is that it makes it easy for me to look around the studio and figure out who knows something that I don't, so I can go bug them to show me something!

Originally posted by Goldendragon7


There is nothing (better) like wearing a belt you feel deserving of. Yet, there is nothing (worse) than wearing a belt that you do not deserve and you know and feel it.

I coudn't agree more. I really didn't feal I deserved my belt rank after the last two tests and still feal bad about wearing it. It is of cource my fault because I accepted it but its hard to figure out what to do as I am in kenpo limbo land with no instructor right now. Wear a new belt of apropriate rank that I sort of give myself? Just wait until I find teacher? *sigh*

Good luck at your new school!!!

find a new teacher, let them evaluate you and adjust your rank accordingly.

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I personally salute you and your efforts to seek and learn a higher and more skillful art than your old studio.

Ditto!

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Now get back to worrying about Blue and don't look so damn far ahead!

Hehehehe :p

Originally posted by nightingale8472

find a new teacher, let them evaluate you and adjust your rank accordingly.

Those simple answers tend to be best ;-)

Thanks, thats basically what I'm planning, just going to take a little while due to other issues.

Makes you wonder how all these systems without ranks manage to survive, doesn't it?

I find I am much happier without rank, 'cause I ain't rank.
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by GouRonin

I find I am much happier without rank, 'cause I ain't rank.
:rolleyes:

So do you no longer acknowledge your brown in AK since your opposed to rank? Does Systema follow the JKD method in terms of phase 1,2,3,4..etc.. instructors or is it set up a different way? Also at the rate your training with Vlad when would you be considered at a full instructor level? As we know AK varies from 5 to 20 yrs to get black or one year depending on who you study under (just a joke) .

jb

Great questions. all deserving of an answer.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
So do you no longer acknowledge your brown in AK since your opposed to rank?

I was actually awarded a black belt based on video I sent to someone to see where I stood. I do not wear that rank. I do not recognize it. I could should I chose to. I don't. When I go to seminars etc I wear the rank of brown. It's the only belt I ever really got that I care for because it was given to me by friends I respect. I only wear a belt when at seminars in EPAK because they ask that I wear something. I prefer to work out in whatever is comfortable. I spent 7+ years wearing a gi for EPAK and it's not breaking my heart to not have to wear one to work out in.
:shrug:

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Does Systema follow the JKD method in terms of phase 1,2,3,4..etc.. instructors or is it set up a different way?

In systema you either instruct or you do not. In fact though, everyone teaches everyone what they know. It's a collective class with one leader. There used to be instructor certification but Vlad as far as I know does not do that much anymore. He just tells you where you are and if you can teach.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Also at the rate your training with Vlad when would you be considered at a full instructor level?

When he says I am. I just work hard and he'll let me know when I am ready, if ever.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
As we know AK varies from 5 to 20 yrs to get black or one year depending on who you study under (just a joke)

I spent 7+ years working in Kenpo, 4 schools that either closed on me, kicked me out, or I left. That doesn't include the added private instruction I got. That means I had to start over again at white belt at least 4 times. To my distain I got my black in one moment. I was happier, at least dealing with politics, when I was boxing before I ever heard of Kenpo. Since then I have blown out into many other arts crosstraining in EVERYTHING I can get my hands on. I find the arts that do it for me are the ones where you "don't have to show the rank, you just have to go on the floor."

So I don't care about rank. I want material. I'll roll onto the floor with almost anyone, anywhere, at anytime if I can.

You go nightingale8472.
I think I agree with everything you've said.
:)

Originally posted by GouRonin

I spent 7+ years working in Kenpo, 4 schools that either closed on me, kicked me out, or I left.

I wanna hear THOSE stories! Especially where you got kicked
out!

Originally posted by Kirk
I wanna hear THOSE stories! Especially where you got kicked
out!


No you don't. Some things are better off not said.

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
No you don't. Some things are better off not said.

I have to agree. Some dogs are best left to lie sleeping.
:disgust:

Originally posted by nightingale8472

where it gets really confusing is that some kenpo schools do match stripes with belts, and some don't.

If I walk into my old school, I'm a first brown (one stripe).

and now, in my new school, I'm a third brown (one stripe), but same rank... sigh... confusing...

?

Before Seig and I went I.K.K.O our school used 3 stripes for 3rd Brown.. 2 for 2nd.. 1 for 1st Brown.. So I've gone from 3 stripes as a 3rd degree brown.. 2.. .. and back to 3 stripes again~!!

Fortunately the Cirriculum is down in black and white... and we hand out the Iron on stripes at promotions..

Tess

Out of abstract interest, do you guys tend to use electrical tape for stripes as I do, or go to the trouble of sewing cloth onto the belt?

Tape has always been fine in the past, but I've been a 1st brown for so long now I think it may have lost its stickyness and needs replacing! lol!

Ian.

We used to use tape, but I disliked it. We went to iron on stripes, which are ok. They do not look bad and they seem to hold up well. My emminent teacher, Mr.C is next going to work with me with the cloth material and show me how to use that. Once we have that resolved, we are probably going to switch again. It seems to be a more professional approach.

that tape would be fine. The reason I say this is because a student normally doesn't spend yrs. at one belt level. When passing the next belt level hang them up on the wall and start again. Now if it's black I wouldn't use tape at all (me personally). I went without stripes until my last promotion. Let me tell you though sewing stripes on is absolutely hard. I'm pretty particular when it comes to the stripes being even. Measuring, moving this in the right spot, the other side moving, pins the whole thing is tedious. It took me about 1.5 - 2 hrs. per stripe. Once agian I'm no professional at it but it was hard nonetheless.

Ok, I can see we need a lesson on Belt stripes 101! :rofl:

Hey.......... even as a lower belt you can have pride in what you earned and wear even if it is just for a few months each (it still is time spent in your overall journey). (tape is yucky...... ) but it does do and is quick (I guess it depends if you want to be tacky or not) **giggle** many do use it and it is no big deal... but I don't personally like it.

:asian:

hey dennis, how do you think a sash would look with a gi?

I don't mind the use of electrical tape on "lower" belt ranks. It doesn't look *that* bad and it is quick and easy. Except for those instructors who insist on giving out stripes every mounth. Then the student's belts look like this nasty mass of gooey tape... For brown and up though I think something better looking than tape is apropriate. Although I know a few people who don't wear any stripes and do the tape thing just for their promotions which is cool.

Originally posted by theneuhauser

hey dennis, how do you think a sash would look with a gi?


Probably terrible. That's my guess.

personally, when I achieve a stripe (on my brand new yellow belt, which my instructor claims to have ordered for me), I'm going to get it embroidered, because I think tape looks tacky on any rank. Besides, its sticky.

I used Bias Tape - found at a fabric shop, and the iron on hem adhesive. Iron on one side of the belt, continue around and get the other side, then again on the 1st side, that way if it starts peeling off, you still have a complete stripe showing. At Black I have mine and my student's embroidered.

-Michael

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

that tape would be fine. The reason I say this is because a student normally doesn't spend yrs. at one belt level. When passing the next belt level hang them up on the wall and start again. Now if it's black I wouldn't use tape at all (me personally). I went without stripes until my last promotion. Let me tell you though sewing stripes on is absolutely hard. I'm pretty particular when it comes to the stripes being even. Measuring, moving this in the right spot, the other side moving, pins the whole thing is tedious. It took me about 1.5 - 2 hrs. per stripe. Once agian I'm no professional at it but it was hard nonetheless. \
Learn to use a sewing machine, makes life a lot easier. When I was a senior in high school, I had to fill my schedule with a bunch of elective credits. I only had one required class that year. So, I signed up for sewing. My Dad said to me, "Only girls take sewing!" I asked him what the downside was. Well, due to a wonderful teacher that I love to this day, 15 years later, in spite of myself, I learned. So now, when something around here needs sewing, I do it.

Originally posted by nightingale8472

personally, when I achieve a stripe (on my brand new yellow belt, which my instructor claims to have ordered for me), I'm going to get it embroidered, because I think tape looks tacky on any rank. Besides, its sticky.
My sister ordered an embroidered black belty for me on my last birthday. While it is not ugly, it is not my favorite. The stripes are extremely thin and close together. It does not go with the Kenpo dictates for belt stripe width or placement.

Originally posted by Seig

\
Learn to use a sewing machine, makes life a lot easier. When I was a senior in high school, I had to fill my schedule with a bunch of elective credits. I only had one required class that year. So, I signed up for sewing. My Dad said to me, "Only girls take sewing!" I asked him what the downside was. Well, due to a wonderful teacher that I love to this day, 15 years later, in spite of myself, I learned. So now, when something around here needs sewing, I do it.


My wife's sewing machine broke 3 needles on my belt. :( Now I'm in debt to her since now she doesn't have any more needles to do her own stuff. That's when I decided I had to do it by hand.:mad:

you need to use a needle that is specifically for quilting or leatherwork. I use a leather or denim needle if I need to do any stitching on my gi or belt, and it works fine. Regular needles will break. The leather or denim needles are thicker and usually made of steel, so they're a little more expensive, but well worth it.

I don't recall having any of those laying around the house. It figures though I always do everything the hard way.

PRONTO and get some heavy duty needles!!!!!!!!! (and a few extra regular ones as well...... that'll keep her happy)!

By hand.......... OmG!

:asian:

I was somewhat lucky. Heather was making Aaron's dragon costume for halloween when she tried to sew on my belt. It messed up all three needles she had left. Then it threw the timing out on the machine now it doesn't sew. Lucky for me his costume was already done.:o Now I have to get her machine fixed plus find all of these needles. I don't even know what I'm looking for.

LOL.

write down the name and model of her sewing machine. Then, take the piece of paper down to your local JoAnn fabric. Hand the employee there the paper and tell them that you need a denim or leather sewing machine needle for that machine. They'll go get it for you.

And most places that repair vacuum cleaners also fix sewing machines.

Thanks for the help. It's easier said than done. The two Jo-ann shops are closing by us. All of the needles & I do mean all were taken picked through and all that stuff. It still needs to be adjusted in timing though. I guess I'll have to go back to the old man who sold it to her. The thing is he's 20 miles away and has weird hr. probably due to his 80+ yrs. in service. He kind of reminds me of master yoda or something. Maybe it's the gremlin theme or something when you look at him. You remember the old man selling the mogwai (or however you spell that) Well anyway once again I learned the hard way.

send me a PM with your mail address and what kind of machine you have. I'll get the needles for you and mail em.

Originally posted by nightingale8472

send me a PM with your mail address and what kind of machine you have. I'll get the needles for you and mail em.

LOL

That's a really sweet gesture NG, and I know I'm butting in here.

BUT ...

I'm pretty sure OHIO has one or two fabric stores that he can purchase sewing needles at. He just has to be a big brave kenpoist and ask the nice ladies behind the counter.

;)

lol.

i'm sure he could too, but this way, he's out of excuses. I'm going to JoAnn on thursday anyway to get some crystal beads for a chainmail belt I'm making. Picking up needles wouldn't be a problem.