Huk Planas threw me a question the other day. He mentioned that blocking could actually be a waste of time when compared to a parry or evasion.

What do you think? Should we block first or use blocking as a last resort? Ideas?
:confused:

Hi Gou..

You've tossed out an invitation to offer differing opinions
to Mr. Planas' view....Ouch damn fishing hooks hurt when you bite them!! Using the Kenpo definition of a block stopping or redirecting a force with force which can be labelled less sophisticated..not to be confused with less effective.. I prefer
to use maximum focus so that my blocks result in trauma to
the target which now means that my block is in fact a strike
and has become sophisticated!!...catch-22 yossarian..

I hear what you're saying. In American Kenpo the idea is that a block is a strike and a strike is also a block.

What I am looking into is to remove the "and then' from my "vocabulary" and bring more flow. I'm looking for ideas to play with.

You've given me a few. Thanx.
:wavey:

just delete the 'block' from the 'block and then strike'...

Take Five Swords for example. Delete the block and you essentially have a devistating offensive technique.

Almost every tech in the system against punches, kicks etc. starts with a block but if you delete the block whats left?
Peace,
Sandor

I think I'm working more in the alter mode rather than delete so far. But that direction certainly will come.
:boing1:

Alter is good, try this.

Instead of a good old fashioned double arm block, modify the block in this manner.

As you block, block with the hands part open using the heels of the hand, striking to the mid point of the forearm and bicep.

As the block connects, spin your wrists in opposite directions, tunning the thumbs inwards.

This has a number of effects when the timing is right.

1. It hurts like hell and numbs the arm
2. The rear hand is directed towards the attacking wrist useful for control if required.
3. The lead hand is already directed on its journey towards the external cartoid.

Quick painful and effective

Paul,

When I was in Tracy's we had a tech called Whirling Blades that contained a second tech inside called Arking Blades. The version of Five Swords you just described matches that with a few exceptions; on the entry you snap to the groin with the blocking chops and the end finished like Conquering Shields elbow up/heel palm down combo.

Still one of my favorites :asian:

Peace,
Sandor

I like the concept of richochet blocking where the initial block
is actually a minor move as the strike moves forward.
An inside block with the lead hand to the outside of the
opponent's arm that shoot off into a rising forearm under
the chin or to the throat if I use my rear hand, a different
approach to circling the horizon using your one arm to
block,strike and then circle over and back to the kidney shot.
of course, all our blocks should be ricocheting to an extent as we
missile our moves.

This is starting to sound like other posts some of us have explored in the past, but unfortunately, we never get far past the theory stage.
The Dark Side of Kenpo.
Use of our techniques for atacking, as opposed to defending.:D

Huk was showing me some ways to turn a block into an opening, kinda like counterblocking a block with a block and using the opponent's block as his attack so you can block and attack.

I was talking to him and block removal when he showed me that.

It's hard to explain. Easier to watch him do it.
:hammer:

Gou,

This is essentially what the Hubid's teach a person to do. Next time you see Huk ask him about the definition of Hubid :D

It was something else. We discussed Hubud.

Potatoe toes!!

Gou/Sandor the concept of seeing an opponents block(viewed
as a strike perhaps) not as an obstruction but as a deviation as to what we had planned, since most circular strikes I use are coming in from an obscure zone, I assume it was linear and
he beat my initial action, I tend to go with collapsing my extended
limb into a circular elbow. Blindside elbow strikes and forearms
to mid section or throat get me hotter than Georgia asphalt!!

Of course I should have just shot the fool and spared myself
the extra effort, But the neanderthal gorilla still lives inside me,
he's my friend.

I prefer the idea of Parrying instead of blocking, the slipping of the attack leaves the opponent more open to your counter attack. Parries take less energy form you and due to their soft nature usually allow the opponet to over extend themselves, thus leaving them off balanced.

I like an offensive fighter. Frequently I see people trying to get fancy while blocking (e.g when sparring) as if to "test" their opponent's offense...sooner or later, they get "tagged." A good offense, generally speaking, is a great defense.

Man, what a long-ass thread for such a straight question!!:shrug:

I would use a block in lieu of of a parry if I was caught off-guard, OR if the opportunity for a nasty limb destruction is present.

I generally prefer to flow with the attack via parries and checks and bring the poor sod as deep into the hornet's nest as I can get them, that or pass them on thru (stinging all the way!).

Defang the snake ehh Vince?....haha! (then stomp on it!) :D

For beginners blocking is the only option. As you get better and more competent you will have other choices like the parry. Blocking has its merits and will be found thru your entire curriculum.

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
I prefer the idea of Parrying instead of blocking, the slipping of the attack leaves the opponent more open to your counter attack. Parries take less energy form you and due to their soft nature usually allow the opponet to over extend themselves, thus leaving them off balanced.



:D
YEAH!! What he said.....

:cheers:

Originally posted by GouRonin
Huk Planas threw me a question the other day. He mentioned that blocking could actually be a waste of time when compared to a parry or evasion.

What do you think? Should we block first or use blocking as a last resort? Ideas?
:confused: In our dojo we use blocking as a vital part of our counter-attacking methods. Since we are not an Offensive oriented martial system; blocking, parrying, ashi sabaki and tai sabaki or any combination of each, are the main elements of our defensive counter-striking motion conceptualities. Our Blocking and stepping is circular in methology. This provides us with the softer blocking contouring analogies to use hard trapping motions as a sling-shot effect. We do not purposely enter an attacker's centerline upon initial contact. We let the attacker have his/her yang force as he/she gives us unknowingly our complimentary angle of execution! This provides us with the opportunity to work one side of the body and destory the fort while the attacker cannot produce and effective counter to our counter. This, is because we are always to his/her outside with the attacker in the inside of the circle. Therefore a left or right offensive strike can be circularly softly blocked and contoured into a vicious trap of the striking natural weapon to produce the secondary finishing motions of devastation. This defensive works very well with weapons also! The understanding is to never turn the trapped natural weapon's (arm in this case) elbow in the direction of the sky or ceiling! Always angle the attacker's trapped elbow counter-clockwise to the floor! This will always turn your attacker away from you and expose their vital areas on the side of the upper and lower torsos! Thus, preventing their effective countering motions. The trapped natural wepon can also be used against the attacker to block his/her own countering attemps from accross their body. If the attacker trys to counter from the opposite or reverse direction; he /she only exposes more vital areas on the other side of their spine for the finishing defensive counter! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

If I move to the outside of the punch I like to use a parry. If I go to the inside I like to block.

Well, it really depends upon what experience you have. Notice I didn't use a belt level,,,, I have seen some that have a black belt on that move as beginners.... and greenbelts that move as advanced. So we must really talk about skill levels and not belt rank unfortunatley!

The "beginner" is taught to block then counter.......

Then as we become an "intermediate", we learn to block with a counter, ......

At the "advanced" level you slip and counter simultainously.

Then at various levels of advanced you learn to block and ride the action thru to end in a strike while controlling the opponents actions.:)

Come on Doug you know that!! Give me a break. Get the white Belt out again.

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Come on Doug you know that!! Give me a break. Get the white Belt out again.

Alrighty. I will start wearing the white belt again.

Remember, you told me to. :lol:

I wanna watch Dennis Kick your ass for this one. (LOL) :jediduel:

Wait till he flips out when I tell him I'm going to stop doing Kenpo and start Systema.
:iws:

Off to the boxing gym for me.
:boxing:

He would say........ well, another good man gone to the dogs!:rofl:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
another good man gone to the dogs!


Bow wow...
:rolleyes:

"When I teach, I want effects. If a punch comes, if you block it and you look lazy, as long as you block it, that's all I care about. I don't give a damn about going down with beautiful form."

Ed Parker sums it up nicely.

Blocking is a main component of ones Basics, prefaced by Stance and suffixed by parries, punches, strikes, finger techniques, kicks and foot maneuvers.

In the beginning they are taught and are necessary to learn for many reasons and as you advance you understand more and more on where and when to use them.

As an advanced student, one utilizes blocks when necessary, yet gravitates to other methods of evasion and checking as well.

:asian:

Originally posted by GouRonin

Huk Planas threw me a question the other day. He mentioned that blocking could actually be a waste of time when compared to a parry or evasion.

What do you think? Should we block first or use blocking as a last resort? Ideas?
:confused:

It depends upon the circumstances but the general rule is you better block. i would, in general disagree with Huk. You used to box, so you tell me what happenns when a combo is thrown and you don't control width. Of course you can slip, bob, weave, ride, angle, parry, but none of these things will negate a continuing assault. Sooner or later you must nullify him by a strike, distance, or a block.

I currently like blocking ... when the opportunity arises. It took me a long time to learn how to slip, ride, redirect, contact manipulate, control manipulate, etc. My 1st Black thesis was chokes, strangles, smothers, sleepers. I utilized a lot of parries to allow the opponent to get closer to me before I initiated a restraint.

In my early Kenpo training I blocked as it was more natural when you come out of Shotokan or Taekwondo background. It essentially is the only defensive course in your repetoire. That or a premptive kick to stay out of range. So then parries came along. Much more sophisticated than anything I had been exposed to previously. It took a long time to learn not to reorbit the opponent's weapons.

I now like the idea of "First Strike" and every touch hurting the opponent. That lends itself back into a more aggressive blocking model ... being much more specific about how and where I block.

When push comes to shove in real life ... I have done them both, and they both work. The question is, do I want to hurt the attacker so they re-evaluate the wisdom of continuing their current course of action (hee-hee.) Or do I want to blend, redirect, seize, control, contact manipulate, contact control, with the potential for a devestating follow up as indicated ... as in the case of a drunk friend, or crazy adolescent?

Choices, choices, choices! That is what I truely love about Kenpo!

Doctor Chapel, sorry I have not had time to respond to your email! I will when I have a free moment. Needless to say your question required a more studied response than what I gave above.

:asian:
Oos,
-Michael
UKS-Texas

Originally posted by Doc
It depends upon the circumstances but the general rule is you better block. You used to box, so you tell me what happenns when a combo is thrown and you don't control width. Of course you can slip, bob, weave, ride, angle, parry, but none of these things will negate a continuing assault. Sooner or later you must nullify him by a strike, distance, or a block.

My coach always felt that footwork was one of the best defences usable as it allowed you to move where you wanted to be. This also meant that it was great for the offence. You can take a monkey and put gloves on it an a chair with wheels and if you move it properly with the right timing even the monkey will be able to punch a guy out.

But over all blocking is not seen as the goal in boxing. You want to be able to move so that you make your opponent miss by centimeters. (Inches for you imperial folk) This allows for counters and openings etc. Yes, there is blocking, I won't deny that and I agree with you in that it has it's time and place. I find however that most times blocking can be an "AND THEN" which can be removed from the sentence of motion required.

But that is just my opinion. Your km/mileage may vary.

Originally posted by GouRonin

You can take a monkey and put gloves on it an a chair with wheels and if you move it properly with the right timing even the monkey will be able to punch a guy out.

I'd like to see someone try this.

Certainly in arnis we think of evasion and parrying/checking over blocking when possible. Often if we can move out of the way we'll skip the block and go straight to the check and counter.

Personally, I prefer to parry or simply get out of the way. In that way, I use my opponent's motion against them, because most of the time, when they were expecting to hit something, they end up off balance when all they contact is air. I use the opportunity to get behind my opponent. Angle changes work wonders in almost any kind of fight, because most people fight in a straight line, moving at you. When you angle change, it throws them off balance.

goes on for our own good. My instructor has always commented that karate people tend to try to block too much. Watch people spar for a little while. You'll see even some good strikers try to block all the strikes. Even the ones that won't hit them. Sometimes I'm guilty of that myself. Slip, ride and parry are really good skills. How much does a punch need to miss by? 1/4 of inch is a miss. If I don't have to move hands too far from where i want them, my opponent is the one who is out of position with his strike. If I block, I've probably opened something up moving my hand away. The other thing I try to teach people is to think about where you block. Would it be better to block the punch coming at your ribs 8 inches away from your body or right on your body (arm tucked and rolling with the punch)? I vote for right on the body. I'll take the punch on the arm rather than open myself for a clean shot.

Just my thought...

R

Many karateka consider that they are not so much blocking as attacking the attacker's arm. To them I say that's great; to those who really are just blokcing, though, I say you'll get hit sooner or later if you play defense.

I have alway learned that you should not block a punch or a kick if it is not within four inches of your body. I have also learned that for ever blok is a strike and for ever stike is a block. So what I'm saying is if you think the punh or kick is going to hit you then yes block it and if it is way out there were it will not hit you then don't block. The way I look at it is I rather block a little more than get hit .:shrug:

Originally posted by Testdummy
I have alway learned that you should not block a punch or a kick if it is not within four inches of your body. I have also learned that for ever blok is a strike and for ever stike is a block. So what I'm saying is if you think the punh or kick is going to hit you then yes block it and if it is way out there were it will not hit you then don't block. The way I look at it is I rather block a little more than get hit .:shrug:


LOL this is an on going question........ Well the main root to the question is really ...... avoiding being hit! Blocking is one means of that, or moving so as to not be hit is another.

In the early stages of the Art we teach students to block, then we teach you to attack with the block and make it a "striking block", then as you increase your awareness we teach you to slip and eventually to attack the attack.

So it really depends upon where you are on the scale of learning as to what you do. On the street you do what ever it takes to become successful based upon the cumulative training and conditioning.

:asian:

YES!