Can Students Fail Tests?

[bushidomartialarts]

Been thinkin' about tests and testing of late. I've never failed a student who took a test from me. There's plenty I've pulled aside and told to wait another month. But to my way of thinking, if a student gets up on test day unprepared...

That's the teacher's fault. There's no way the student should have to face the humiliation of doing poorly and not receving rank for their teacher's innatention and slipshod work.

Again, I've told lots of students to wait another month. But I don't fail tests. You could say that the 'test' is really an exhibition and celebration, but the student is tested for rank in each class?

Thoughts? Disagreements? Comments about my ancestors and personal hygeine?

[terryl965]

Yes I have failed some of my students, when you get a brain fart and just cannot remember you have got to fail and re-test them

[dragonswordkata]

I have to agree, to a point Sir. I never test a student till I know they know thier material, and they are comftable with it also. Why would someone set a student up to fail? I feel that a test is mostly in the students hands, they pass or fail on thier own merits. And I let them know this. I also stress that I believe in them and thier skills and that they should try to relax and do your best like in any normal class.

But what if that student simply gets over nervious and keeps making simple but critical mistakes threwout the test? I had a student do this just last weekend? I had to exsplore a few ideas such as A. Stop the test and have her test again at a later date B. Continue testing and let her,hopefully, workout the jitters C. Pass her, but as a honory purple belt, and have her re-test for that portion she had problems with. I chose B and it worked out once she settled down. I would love to hear other folks ideas. Thanks for raising this issue.

[dubljay]

I agree with Terry. Student's sometimes just fail. While it can be humiliating to fail it will present a crucial juncture for the student. Give up because it's too hard or train harder to prove that they can do it. Martial arts is not and should not be easy (I'm not saying you're giving away belts or anything like that) But you can only lead a student so far. At some point they have to take responsibility for themselves; and that should take place well before they are ready to test for black belt. For no matter how long you hold a student back to get them ready for that test, they will only pass it if they want to pass it. In many ways a test is more than demonstrating the technical skills, its a test of character of the student, how much do they work for it, how important is it to them. Either they will work harder or they will give up, and if they give up then martial arts may not be a good thing for them to persue.

Just my 2 cents

-Josh

[Blindside]

It isn't really a test if you can't fail. If it isn't a test, whats the pont? Call it a demo or an exhibition, but lets not lie if we know a student will pass.

Lamont

[Steel Tiger]

I think that, while it is important that you as a teacher know when a student is ready to be tested, it is equally important that the student know that there is a possibility of failing the test. If such is not the case then the test becomes almost meaningless.

At my school testing for early grades is done privately which removes a lot of the potential nervous tension. Later, more senior grades have public tests because it is important that the entire community of the school see and experience the difficulty of these tests so that they understand how much work their seniors have put in. Of course, the public nature of the test creates the nervous tension that the earlier tests are designed to offset.

[Gary Crawford]

Thanks for opening the subject! This can be a fine line to dance on every now and then. I agree with not testing anyone until they know their material well enough to pass tests,but sometimes with some students failing them,it's the only way to get their attention. IMHO, I prefere to test students in a private setting,especially with a student who hasn't put forth more than minimal effort. You can't just privatly test students who might not pass,it has to be a blanket policy. That's why I test mine privatly for the first three ranks. I test them when I think they are ready,but when the students or their parents think they are ready and I don't agree, I test them and fail them to make a point to them and their parents without humiliating them in front of their pears. After that, I have weeded out the one's who arn't serious about thier training and they are ready for group testing and nobody tests before they are ready to go through the ritual and pass.

[Kacey]

I agree with both sides: I will not allow a student to test who cannot pass, but they must perform to pass, and yes, I have had students fail testings because they got up and didn't try, or froze and didn't perform. It happens. Knowing you will pass makes testing meaningless; it becomes just another workout. Testing requires students to perform under stress - the stress of having an unfamiliar person telling them what to do (I don't test my own students; I test other instructors' students and they test mine - aside from increasing the stress level, it also gets me feedback on my instruction), of having family, friends, and cameras there to watch, of having to perform at their best from the beginning... all of those provide insight into a student's motivation, concentration, understanding, and mindset in a way not seen in a regular class.

[jks9199]

Been thinkin' about tests and testing of late. I've never failed a student who took a test from me. There's plenty I've pulled aside and told to wait another month. But to my way of thinking, if a student gets up on test day unprepared...

That's the teacher's fault. There's no way the student should have to face the humiliation of doing poorly and not receving rank for their teacher's innatention and slipshod work.

Again, I've told lots of students to wait another month. But I don't fail tests. You could say that the 'test' is really an exhibition and celebration, but the student is tested for rank in each class?

Thoughts? Disagreements? Comments about my ancestors and personal hygeine?
Yes, I've failed students. We don't have scheduled tests. Generally, if we're testing a student, we believe that they'll pass. Unfortunately, we've been let down a time or two.

But that's not our fault, in my opinion. The student has a responsibility to be prepared at all times for testing, in our system. We expect each student to be able to demonstrate each form they've learned, and remember the appropriate material, not just cram and regurgitate them on test day.

[Steel Tiger]

I can see how one can feel that a student failing is not ones fault. But don't we as teachers have something of a responsibility to not only present the material but to ensure that our students both understand and practise?

That is not to say that we should monitor them constantly and berate them for not training. We should be presenting such an attitude that will make students want to train and learn so that when a test comes along they are ready and willing to undertake it.

[Kacey]

I can see how one can feel that a student failing is not ones fault. But don't we as teachers have something of a responsibility to not only present the material but to ensure that our students both understand and practise?

That is not to say that we should monitor them constantly and berate them for not training. We should be presenting such an attitude that will make students want to train and learn so that when a test comes along they are ready and willing to undertake it.

And even so, students will fail. I observe students during class; hold pretestings; I invite other instructors in to provide additional feedback; and even so, students will fail. Others on this thread, and similar threads, have stated that testings are closed to spectators to avoid the stress of spectators; for myself, the stress of testing proves the mettle of the students. If they cannot perform under stress, such as that created by an audience, it becomes even less likely that they will be able to perform under other types of stress, such as actual self-defense situations. That is not meant to equate the two situations - actual self-defense is much more stressful than any situation I can create in a dojang - but I do the best I can to create stress within the testing situation, to teach students to perform under stress.

[bluemtn]

I haven't failed a test exactly, but I didn't immediately get a rank until I was able to perform something correctly. My instructor said, "you passed, but you need to work on this on your own", and he had me do it at the next class we had- no extra fees, was able to learn some things on my then new belt all before the re- performance. That's all I've ever seen happen. I think for me, I needed to do some mental work, if you catch my drift.

[Drac]

I failed my first test...It happens...

[Steel Tiger]

And even so, students will fail. I observe students during class; hold pretestings; I invite other instructors in to provide additional feedback; and even so, students will fail. Others on this thread, and similar threads, have stated that testings are closed to spectators to avoid the stress of spectators; for myself, the stress of testing proves the mettle of the students. If they cannot perform under stress, such as that created by an audience, it becomes even less likely that they will be able to perform under other types of stress, such as actual self-defense situations. That is not meant to equate the two situations - actual self-defense is much more stressful than any situation I can create in a dojang - but I do the best I can to create stress within the testing situation, to teach students to perform under stress.


I agree, the presence of an audience has beneficial effects even if they are not immediately obvious. My teacher not only preferred audiences, but encouraged them to be vocal during certain parts of the testing process, especially sparring.

In my opinion, a test should look to examine more than just clinical knowledge of technique, as you say, whether that be the student's character, inner resolve, or philosophical understanding.

[pstarr]

Yes, I've failed students - especially some who, against the better judgement of their seniors, weren't up to snuff. The exam requirements are there for a reason...

[tellner]

If there weren't a chance of failure it wouldn't be a test.

[bushidomartialarts]

i guess i'm a bit of a hippie that way. way i figure it, the test is the hours upon hours of class they go through and demonstration of competence over time.

someone made the point that one shouldn't call it a test if it's a demo or exhibition. i denifinitely see that point. thanks all for weighing in on what's turning out to be an interesting conversation.

[Carol]

I failed Kenpo a stripe test once. I got overheated and very dizzy and had to take myself off the mat. Later that week I had a private lesson with my instructor where we went over the old material as well as a bit of new material. At the end of the private he said that the review part of the lesson was my stripe test, then he awarded me my stripe. :)

[Cirdan]

Since our sensei don`t let us test until we are ready, students rarely fail but it can happen. Those that fail usually do so becauce they freeze and give up after a imperfect move instead of carrying on and giving the extra effort. Lower ranks messing up a kata or similar are usually given a second chanse immediately. I would say the test most of all is about your ability to focus and if you know the material by heart.

[Haze]

I failed my green belt test (goju ryu)

My instructor prepared me, was my own fault.
Just drew a blank part way through one of the kata.

[BrandiJo]

My first inst would fail students atleast once before they reached black belt. I never got that high with him, but my best friend did. She says she learned alot from failing and he clames that it does a student good to be humbled... personaly i dont understand setting a student up like that.

[Shotochem]

I failed my first BB test. Long story I won't rehash it.

I learned more that day than the previous year. It was more than just technical skill they were after.
I am a much better MA today than I was back then. I never did retest. I kept training with that organization for a couple of years and have sinced moved on. I declined every time they asked me to grade. For me it no longer mattered. I Trained 4 classes a week for 7 years straight and at home as well. They couldn't respect the fact that to me it was never about a belt and that I never wanted to grade in the first place. I never had any fears of retesting. It just didn't seem to matter as much to me.

I started all over again in another art (Kempo). The sheer joy and pleasure of training a new system as a whitebelt again was strangely undescribeable. It was fun and enjoyable again. I have graded a few times in this atr already but I no longer feel any pressure or desire for rank. I have also been attending assorted seminars in other styles to broaden my horizons and keep myself amused.

Am I a heretic? Am I still a real MA? Or maybe, this is what it's reall all about.

-Marc-

[Grenadier]

I've failed two exams in my time, each in a different style.

My teachers thought I was ready, and I certainly thought I was ready, but since the performances that I gave those days did not meet the standards, I did not pass. Of course I was upset, but life moves on, and the last thing I'm going to do is curl up into a blubbering ball of misery for the rest of my life.

This is the same way I see it with other students, as I strongly agree with Kacey. A student who has no chance of passing an exam will simply not be given an exam form. Whether this is due to lack of preparation, or unfortunate circumstances (injuries, etc), it matters not.

Also, a student who has not trained consistently, with an acceptable level of intensity, will not be allowed to take the exam, even if he knows all of the material. The exams actually begin from the moment after the student has received the belt that he is wearing, and each student is evaluated throughout the quarter.

There are some students who try to get away with as little effort as possible, and then crank it up when test time rolls around. Most of the time, I don't bother giving them exam forms, and will tell them specifically, that they need to keep "cranking it up" on a regular basis, and not just for a week.

Yes, there are some students who might be better served by letting them take the exam at the more advanced ranks, since there's so much material, that they cannot possibly do well just by cramming. This would teach them a lesson about slacking off, but it would also be an insult to those taking the exam, since those folks earned the right to be there by their hard work.

Unfortunately, even good students can have a disruptive moment in their trains of thought. However, if they are good students, then they should use the failure of an exam as a powerful motivational tool, and come out even stronger than before.

[Brian R. VanCise]

In IRT training is the major test! I mean whenever a student is training they are being tested right from the get go. Tested to see if I want them as a student, if they want to train, if they can perform the techniques, and so on. The formal test is more of a chance to bond and train and explore new directions in their training. Test's are done on an individual basis though so it is quite different than a mass testing and quite time consuming. (two to three hours for the first test) Could someone fail? Maybe if they did not show up or failed to perform with heart! Technique wise probably not as they will be far advanced in the technical area before I would allow them to test.

[The Kidd]

I would have to agree with the majority, as teachers we should never set a student up to fail. If they are not ready or are borderline then they should never receive a testing form. Could someone be ready and then blow it on testing day? Sure but that should be a rarity and handled with dignity, not a regular occurance and handled as a right of passage.

[searcher]

If there weren't a chance of failure it wouldn't be a test.


That is it in a nutshell. BTW-I have had students fail and most of them never miss a single thing on tests after they fail one.

[jdinca]

I have a student who has tested for his blue belt 3 times. He's the first student I've ever had that failed a test. He'll be on fire in his lessons but then something will crop up in the test that prevents him from passing. I won't let him test again until I'm positive he can pass.

It's okay for a student to fail a test. We don't let it happen in the beginner ranks but once a student has achieved, oh say purple belt, there are times where they may not pass a test. What matters is how it's handled. If it's done in a positive, supportive manner, it can be a great learning experience. If not, it can demoralize and student and the can soon be gone.

[matt.m]

Purple belt -3rd gup is the 1st major belt in MSK:HKD. I know that on one occasion that the whole group testing failed and had to retake 2 weeks later.

[bydand]

The last couple of schools I've had the pleasure of training in didn't have formal "tests", the testing was done every week, every training day. Attitude, skills, participation in classes, general overall performance, was looked at and taken into consideration. When the instructors were satisfied you met the skill level expected at a certian rank, and all the other peices fell into place, you were asked to prepare a Demo. Never called it a test, but you were expected to do a good demo and do it in front of not only our dojo, but friends and family members of all the students who were "going up". Plus now that there are two schools close to each other, we get a lot of students, and instructors from the other school coming over to watch and encourage us, as we do them for their demos. Personally I think it is more stressful than a regular test because you know what is expected, and the last thing you want to do is goof-up and disappoint the instructor. After all he has the confidence that you have the skills for the new belt level, and is excited for you to be able show others your progression in the art. My wife is preparing for her first "Demo" the middle of next month and I can assure you, she has given much thought to what she wants to do and we have been practicing a LOT lately because she wants it to be "perfect". I know she has the skills, the Instructor knows she has the skills, the other students know she has the skills, but this is a way for HER to know she has aquired the skills.

Never seen a student "fail", but have seen them freeze up and forget what was next. A gentle reminder from an instructor and some kind words and they always calm down and finish their demo, usually with lots of cheering from the crowd, their fellow classmates, and also from the front of the dojo and the instructors.


P.S. I'm darn proud of her too!

[bigkicks]

If there weren't a chance of failure it wouldn't be a test.



i belive tellner best.

we have failed students before, but also we have never placed a student in front of a testing commitee that we knew wasn't fully capable of passing. if the student frezzes up, chokes, or forgets his/her katas, it is up to the instructor to pass, fail, and/or re-test. I will say that in our TSD school their are no re-test for 6 months to a year if you fail in the 3rd-1st dan area. any belt below that its an option that we reserve to fail or re-test.

Stuff happens all the time, weather it be mentally or physically. Bottom line is when your testing it is all you up their, your mind should be free and clear of all thoughts except the one at hand. if prepare well enough failure will never be a result.

[tshadowchaser]

I am jumping into this blnd after reading the first post.

YES I have failed students on their tests. I have failed them because: they pulled mental blanks
not been able to give me basic fist day information that we repeat every day
had no clue whatthey hell they where supposed to do
not been able to tell me the first line of our code
not known who my instructor was
not knowing the name of the school
thinking they could just do whatever and I would accept it as correct
because they gave up or did not have the desire to complet the warm up excersises
because they acted like my school and the test was a playground for kindergarden children not an adult testing

Yes I have failed a few and have no trouble failing more. I require they know and are able to preform the material I test them on and I expect them to do so with a persaonal pride in what they do

I have also tested a student and awarded them the same rank as they already had because they never could remember to sign in with that rank they had already tested and passed

[kachi]

I had to exsplore a few ideas such as A. Stop the test and have her test again at a later date B. Continue testing and let her,hopefully, workout the jitters C. Pass her, but as a honory purple belt, and have her re-test for that portion she had problems with.

When I went for my shodan-ho in November, there was 2 of us attempting it and a bit over 3/4 of the way through the other person passed out (it was very hot and it's a very very rigorous test). I passed and got my belt and she was made an honory shodan-ho and had to take the bit of the test she missed a few weeks later.

And I've only ever seen 2 people fail, who were doing great up until the test when I suppose the nerves kicked in and they just stuffed up way to much to be given their belt. One of them dropped out after that (bit of a blow to the confidence I guess) and the other continued and got their belt 6 months later.

[tellner]

There are many different sorts of test. There are tests which confirm a student's knowledge. There are tests which teach. There are tests which inspire confidence. There are tests which weed out. There are tests which push a student beyond what he or she has done before. The standards of success and failure and the desired outcome on the part of the tester depend on what sort of test it is.

"One hundred men will test today. Just three will wear the Green Beret," is a lot different than a test which is actually an initiation ceremony into a new level. The standards will be different. The material will be different. The fraction of people who fail will be different.

In a strange way I'm partial to testing more than I am to kyu/dan ranks or any of the variations. Rank has its place in a huge organization. In one as small as what I'm involved in it is pretty worthless except for the distinction between the guy in front of the class and the guys taking the class. On the other hand tests can be very useful. Someone may perform flawlessly in the familiar comfort zone of class. Making him put something on the line in a higher stress situation is useful, particularly if the test makes him do something which he has never done before, something which you think he has a reasonable chance of succeeding at. It's just another aspect of "live training".

[ares]

I feel most students have problems because they don't truely believe that they know all that they should. If you are confident in your training, then you should be able to show it when testing. My Shihan has us do forms, then tells other students to grab guns, knives and clubs. He then tells the attackers what to attack (grab or weapons) and the testing student must properly do the technique. Some students know the material, but when it comes down to rapid fire attacks they mentally break down and forget. If you know your stuff and are just having problems you get a half belt(yellow/orange. orange/purple). He will give you some time to work out your problems and he test you again. If a student fails because of nerves then you can't promote. They know they were nervous and will work to improve it for next time and be better students for it.

[Kempo/wingchun dummy]

I failed my brown belt test the first time because i was unprepared and had an unrealistic view of my own abilities compared to the adults. as a teen i really hadn't thought about the differences between the kids programs the chain school was pushing and what the grown ups were doing. the instructors were poor teachers and allowed me to test and get beat up and hurt physicaly and emotionally. The owner and master realized what was going on, stopped the abuse( they were beating the poop out of me) and convinced me to train harder and test again. I waited till the same group of people were testing again and sought revenge. I had become as big a jerk as them. I passed, then quit, then found an amazing teacher who helped me overcome my anger and helped me to grow as person. i don't test people who aren't ready and i have had to fail exactly
two, but if you lay the ground work of understanding, friendship, compassion and truthfullness they will be dissapointed but determined to do better because they love what they are doing. anyways thats my experiance. a bit extreme but i've learned quite a bit about my self some good some bad, but even with my own personal experence i felt absoulutly sick inside at having to fail them (they're my students i love them!) but they totally sucked on that particular day, on stuff that they could do any other day,but that most important one. Sometimes people just screw up bad for whatever reason but if you can't do it when you most need to then what's the point? i"ll shut up now

[Anti-Theory]

My Sifu never failed me on any of my tests, but I know some of the students who have failed his test. Sometimes at the very start of the test if it seems like you're really nervous and are making lots of mistakes he'll tell you to stop and won't charge you for the terting. There are also parts where you can instantly fail if you do not perform the technique correctly or too slowly. For example, dropping your staff during your test would get you an F grade and you would have to re-take it later.

[fnorfurfoot]

I am curious to know if the instructors here charge testing fees and if so, if you were to fail a student, do they have to pay the fee again to re-test?

[Blindside]

No testing fees here.

[Kacey]

I am curious to know if the instructors here charge testing fees and if so, if you were to fail a student, do they have to pay the fee again to re-test?

Students who fail tests are always retested free, at least in my association.

[charyuop]

As a student I wouldn't find imbarassing or humiliating failing a test. Of course everyone is different, but that is my position.
MA is not math, if I forget something I can open a book and check what I forgot. When you need to use MA is a one time chance. If you fail in the moment you need MA you don't say ok let's redo it, you just get beaten up or killed in the worst case scenario.
Thinking that the being nervous is an excuse is not enough. When I (hopefully never) need to use MA, I will probably be nervous, scared, full of adrenaline and who knows what else.
Failing a test would show me my limit or problems and will give me something to work on, that can be being more natural movements, memorizing better techniques or learning to face my nervous/fears problems better.

Just my 2 cents...

[Brian R. VanCise]

No testing fees ever in IRT! If you earn a rank it is yours with no money attached.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif (However you have to earn it on the mats with regular training and lots of hard work)

[Kacey]

No testing fees ever in IRT! If you earn a rank it is yours with no money attached.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif (However you have to earn it on the mats with regular training and lots of hard work)

I wish I didn't have to charge testing fees - but I don't earn enough as an independent contractor for the Y being an instructor to buy supplies for my class; testing fees stay with the class in our association, and I use the money to buy belts, wood for breaking, focus pads, most recently a Bob, things like that.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I wish I didn't have to charge testing fees - but I don't earn enough as an independent contractor for the Y being an instructor to buy supplies for my class; testing fees stay with the class in our association, and I use the money to buy belts, wood for breaking, focus pads, most recently a Bob, things like that.

Hey Kacey I understand completely. I do not have a problem with anyone charging testing fees, I have just decided that a feature of training in IRT is no testing fees. Therefore there are no hidden costs when people sign up and they understand that right off the bat.

[Rich Parsons]

I wish I didn't have to charge testing fees - but I don't earn enough as an independent contractor for the Y being an instructor to buy supplies for my class; testing fees stay with the class in our association, and I use the money to buy belts, wood for breaking, focus pads, most recently a Bob, things like that.


Kacey et al,

We charge a small nominal fee for the color belts and then we use the money to buy more pads or pay the rent in July when we shut down for vacations and such. We do not even try to make money. We just try to find ourselfs close to even.


As to failing a test. Yes it is possible. Although, the student should not have been tested unless they were gone over the material and they could do it. So if they can do it, and fail on the test, no fees. Then the instructors work on figuring out what the issues are. Such as fear or something else that might be going on in their life at the time.

[jks9199]

Hey Kacey I understand completely. I do not have a problem with anyone charging testing fees, I have just decided that a feature of training in IRT is no testing fees. Therefore there are no hidden costs when people sign up and they understand that right off the bat.
We don't charge testing fees until the black belt level. Then, those fees cover the cost of the testing seminar/camp, and (unless they've changed it since I was promoted) initial full-membership into the association.

We do charge monthly class dues, however, and some seminars/clincs/camps have fees to cover their costs. Those fees are used to cover the costs of the space, equipment, and maybe once in a blue moon, we actually get enough for dinner over and above the costs!

[Steel Tiger]

I charge no fees for testing. In fact, its a good thing I have another job because I charge almost nothing for training as well.

[bignick]

Is it really a test if you can't fail?

[Steel Tiger]

Is it really a test if you can't fail?

Well no, I don't think so.

If there is no chance to fail then we start to fall into the very unpleasant new age rubbish of only positive reinforcement even when things are diabolically wrong. Martial arts should be about more than just knowing and demonstrating technique, and to see proper resolve and strength of character it is necessary that participants in testing realise that they may not succeed.

[jks9199]

Well no, I don't think so.

If there is no chance to fail then we start to fall into the very unpleasant new age rubbish of only positive reinforcement even when things are diabolically wrong. Martial arts should be about more than just knowing and demonstrating technique, and to see proper resolve and strength of character it is necessary that participants in testing realise that they may not succeed.
I think it's important that evaluational tests be failable (to coin a few words).

But other "tests" are trials or indoctrinations; those should be difficult -- but also difficult to fail, unless the participant chooses to fail by giving up. They're meant more to show that you belong than to determine if you belong, if I'm making sense.

Of course -- sometimes, the student doesn't know which type of test they're undergoing...

[Steel Tiger]

I think it's important that evaluational tests be failable (to coin a few words).

But other "tests" are trials or indoctrinations; those should be difficult -- but also difficult to fail, unless the participant chooses to fail by giving up. They're meant more to show that you belong than to determine if you belong, if I'm making sense.

Of course -- sometimes, the student doesn't know which type of test they're undergoing...

Are you making sense? Yes, I certainly think so. I'm not a fan of the word indoctrination though. It carries certain connotations of which I am not in favour. Trials, on the other hand, always pique my anthropological interest.

Trial and ritual are important parts of any society no matter how big or how small, and our various schools are societies. The training and testing that we put ourselves and others through are the rituals and trials that we use to reinforce the bonds that bind the school together.

If a student take two or three attempts to pass a grading shouldn't that tell you that this student is one who wishes to be part of the community?

[jks9199]

Are you making sense? Yes, I certainly think so. I'm not a fan of the word indoctrination though. It carries certain connotations of which I am not in favour. Trials, on the other hand, always pique my anthropological interest.

Trial and ritual are important parts of any society no matter how big or how small, and our various schools are societies. The training and testing that we put ourselves and others through are the rituals and trials that we use to reinforce the bonds that bind the school together.

If a student take two or three attempts to pass a grading shouldn't that tell you that this student is one who wishes to be part of the community?
Indoctrination is the best word I could think of at the time -- and I'm still stuck for a better one, except maybe initiation.

A common inculcation (to use another $10 word!) experience is a great tool to make bonds between people; even though the specifics of the experience change, anyone who's been through VMI's Ratline, USMC Basic Training, or the US Navy's BUDS course, or a police academy or... share certain common points of reference with their compatriats. The same thing can happen with martial arts testing.

[Steel Tiger]

Ah yes, very good examples of the shared experience creating bonds.

But those programmes also have very strong criteria for passing and failing.

[Brandon Fisher]

Failure is not the teachers fault unless that teacher didn't teach the material. You can teach things very throughly but not always will a student take the responsibility to practice the material. Its like the old saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Failure is a part of life and I believe one must learn to fail before they truly learn to succeed. However I have never failed a student either, only one should have failed and I let it go. That was a mistake on my part.

[IcemanSK]

Failure is not the teachers fault unless that teacher didn't teach the material. You can teach things very throughly but not always will a student take the responsibility to practice the material. Its like the old saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Failure is a part of life and I believe one must learn to fail before they truly learn to succeed. However I have never failed a student either, only one should have failed and I let it go. That was a mistake on my part.

Well said.

I've seen more than one student try to breeze through a test without putting in effort yet still expecting to pass. They were sadly mistaken.

I've also seen the above mentioned instructors allowing someone to test when they haven't been taught the material. That's just cruel, IMO. Failure is an important part of life. But setting someone up to fail serves no purpose.

[RBaddorf]

If you do fail, you are in good company. If you read his book, you will see that Chuck Norris failed his first black belt test.

If there is no chance of failing, it is not a test. It is a demonstration.

[Adept]

I can see how one can feel that a student failing is not ones fault. But don't we as teachers have something of a responsibility to not only present the material but to ensure that our students both understand and practise?

No. We make the material available to them, and encourage them to train. If they choose not to train, then it is not our fault.

Having said that, I don't believe a student should be asked to test unless the instructor reasonably believes they can pass.

[grydth]

I believe the dojo where my daughters train has reached an excellent compromise to avoid either embarassing students before family or handing out meaningless belts to unqualified slackers.

They very thoroughly prepare people on the material, both for testing and for practical use. There is a lot of personal attention, and this can be supportive or critical depending on the person and the situation.

To qualify for the next belt, the student must pass a "red tip" examination - and this is grueling. I have seen half the prospects told they are not ready and must train more. No red tip, no admission to the test.

The test itself, a public event, is hard physically but everyone passes.

My daughter was awarded her Purple Belt with black stripe last night, and she was superb! (Just had to tell everyone that. Resume normal programming).

[Kacey]

I believe the dojo where my daughters train has reached an excellent compromise to avoid either embarassing students before family or handing out meaningless belts to unqualified slackers.

For younger children, yes, avoiding embarrassment is a good thing. For teens and adults, either one prepares oneself, or one embarrasses oneself. As an instructor, I will not allow a student to test who cannot pass - but neither does the ability to pass ensure that all students will pass. I have had students fail; I have had friends, under my instructor and other instructors, fail; the ones who fail and return are often the best of us all - because they learned from their failure. The ones who appear at testing and do not try - and then blame anyone other than themselves for their failure - leave, and generally don't come back; the few who come back are to be commended, and often become the most skilled practitioners.


They very thoroughly prepare people on the material, both for testing and for practical use. There is a lot of personal attention, and this can be supportive or critical depending on the person and the situation.

No problem with this part; any good instructor does the same.


To qualify for the next belt, the student must pass a "red tip" examination - and this is grueling. I have seen half the prospects told they are not ready and must train more. No red tip, no admission to the test.

Then this is the test, as this is the part one can fail. Open or closed does not matter; failing behind closed doors is no less demoralizing than failing in public, even if the immediate impact is lessened by not having spectators outside the class. Also, if the preparation is as good as you say, then I must wonder why such a large portion of the class fails. Surely, the instructors can determine more readily if students are able to pass than by setting them up for an examination that half of them fail. Testing should not be assured, no, but neither should half of those tested fail; that is, IMHO, a fault on the part of the instructors who promulgate such a system.


The test itself, a public event, is hard physically but everyone passes.

A test you cannot fail is a demonstration. I understand what you're saying about not embarrassing people in public, especially children - but if you cannot test without passing the "red tip" examination, and cannot fail once you have passed the "red tip" examination, then the "red tip" examination is the test - which, by your own admission, half of the students fail - and the latter is a post-testing demonstration. As I said, I have a problem with a testing system in which half of the students who are allowed to test fail. I must therefore disagree with your opinion of the quality of this "compromise" - not because the testing is in any way made easier, but because I consider the "red tip" exam to be a semantic change that allows the instructors to test the students privately and fail half of them, instead of preventing them from testing until they are able to pass - not guaranteed, just able - while still making them feel like they are doing well when they fail the "red tip" pretest that is the real examination. I see no purpose in this system other than making the instructors feel good about never "failing" a student in public.


My daughter was awarded her Purple Belt with black stripe last night, and she was superb! (Just had to tell everyone that. Resume normal programming).

Congratulations to your daughter!

[grydth]

We can agree to, in part, disagree.

There's nothing personal here, as my girls are 8 and 11, and are much better performers than their father was.

Yes, I view the Red Tip as the actual exam as well. But I do agree with their Shihan that it is better to advise them they need to train harder after a class than corking them with failure in front of a packed dojo. I therefore disagree with you on this point. These teachers appear sincere in this practice, and have never struck me as being the type to institute a system just to make themselves feel better... so I think this another point of contention. Finally I feel that passing the red tip test lends confidence for their performance in the public domain.

Yes, I concur that those who fail and return often become the best - but I wonder if having to fail in public might drive away some who might have otherwise returned.

I am sorry if I led any of you folks to an inference that half the students failing the red tip part was a typical number. I have witnessed that happen, but I did not mean to infer that a an average failure rate. Insofar as it is relevant, I'd put the typical red tip failure rate at 10-20%.

All this said, I believe both you and their Shihan to be principled instructors who care about and benefit their students. Neither of you are running one of those odious belt mills with a questionable curriculum. I wish you both the best.

[Drag'n]

I recently passed my shodan test.The 6 other guys who attempted, didnt pass.
We were tested on our basics for 2 hrs. Then had to fight 10 opponents back to back without breaks. Full contact Karate rules.
We were all regarded as being technically proficient enough to take the test, or we wouldnt have been there in the first place.
But there are some things which cant always be assesed in a normal training environment. Occasionally we have to be pushed beyond our boundaries to see what weve got inside when it really "hits the fan".
Tests are a way of pushing those boundaries.
knowing you have to face such a test is an inspiration to train harder.
Tangible but challenging goals are an important part of any effective training program.
Passing such a test fills you with a tremendous amount of satisfaction and accomplishment.
If passing was a sure thing then the inspiration and the satisfaction just wouldnt be there.

I felt for the other guys who didnt pass.
I couldnt walk for 2 days from the pain in my swollen battered legs. But I had the thrill of having faced a tremendous challenge and making it through.The test made me realise things about myself that I couldnt have got from regular training.
They(the other 6) had to face the humiliation and disappointment of failure AND deal with the pain.
But thats all a part of growing and developing your spirit. Those who would give up after failing just dont have what it takes to be a MArtist. Certainly not a shodan.
Just like loosing a fight. The fights I've lost have inspired me to train harder and overcome my weaknesses more than the ones I've won.
Some guys give up after 1 loss.

Failure is an important part of the learning process in any endevour.
To eliminate it would be a great waste.

[evenflow1121]

I ve failed people before, I dont really see a problem with it, I never charged anyone for a rank test, failing is a part of life, it defines us and can make us stronger if we choose to over come it. You have a bad day, or you may think you know the material well, but you may not actually know it as well as you think, so you fail the test, you come back a few months later and pass it, it makes you a better person. It teaches you how to value your rank, if you choose to quit then perhaps you didnt really deserve that black belt. Just my humble opinion.

[Laurentkd]

Many people have said that they understand allowing adult students to fail but not children. And I agree that no one should be set up for failure. However, I failed a blue belt (5th gup) test when I was 8 years old because I could not break a 6X12 board with a sidekick in three attempts. In someways this is one of my proudest moments because I stood in line watching the rest of my rank group test (and pass) and bowed out, sat down and watched the rest of testing and did not start crying until I was out of the dojang (well, bawled is really more accurate). But the thought of quitting never entered my mind, I tested a month later and passed no problem. But the fact that I was able to fail and still show good composure and respect to my fellow students, as well as being able to get back on the horse again- I feel that said more about me than any test that I passed.

I realize I was not your "average" 8 year old TKD kid (anyone still involved in any of the arts even after just a couple years is not average!). I just wonder how we are hurting kids today by NOT ALLOWING them to experience these types of situations and learn how to handle them. At some point all these kids will be adults, and will they only then start to learn how to handle disappointment and how to get over those tough hurdles? How much are we really helping them?

[jks9199]

Many people have said that they understand allowing adult students to fail but not children. And I agree that no one should be set up for failure. However, I failed a blue belt (5th gup) test when I was 8 years old because I could not break a 6X12 board with a sidekick in three attempts. In someways this is one of my proudest moments because I stood in line watching the rest of my rank group test (and pass) and bowed out, sat down and watched the rest of testing and did not start crying until I was out of the dojang (well, bawled is really more accurate). But the thought of quitting never entered my mind, I tested a month later and passed no problem. But the fact that I was able to fail and still show good composure and respect to my fellow students, as well as being able to get back on the horse again- I feel that said more about me than any test that I passed.

I realize I was not your "average" 8 year old TKD kid (anyone still involved in any of the arts even after just a couple years is not average!). I just wonder how we are hurting kids today by NOT ALLOWING them to experience these types of situations and learn how to handle them. At some point all these kids will be adults, and will they only then start to learn how to handle disappointment and how to get over those tough hurdles? How much are we really helping them?

Kids aren't stupid. They know when they've really been tested or who really scored more points even if the adults don't keep score. To me, it's insulting not to keep score or honestly test them. Passing standards can be reasonably age appropriate (I don't expect an 8-year old to be able to repeat information in the same way or have the same coordination a 13-year old or an adult would, for example) -- but the test has to be honest. Otherwise, they know... And they know when rank is given for actual achievement versus being a pat on the back.

Kids aren't miniature adults -- but they're still people and should be treated like people.

[Brandon Fisher]

Oh man not allowing kids to fail is WOW how will they be prepared for the real world later in life. Its scary what could be caused by that.

[searcher]

If a student cannot fail then it is NOT a test, it is a give-away. They need the possibility of failure to keep them on their toes and to help them to continue working hard. It is that little kick in the pants when they start to get full of themselves.

[morph4me]

I believe that in order to pass a test a student, any student, has to meet the minimum requirements for the rank they are being promoted to. I also believe that every student I promote, to any rank, is a reflection of my competence as an instructor.

I don't pass or fail students, their performance earns them the next rank, or doesn't. I have had some students that didn't earn their rank the first time they tested and, as others have said, if they continue to train, they often become the most skilled practitioners.

[grydth]

Not allowing failure at any level to me is providing false self-esteem, which will explode like a fragile pane of glass in a real world situation. I've already explained how my kids' dojo handles it.

There's another side, though. Years ago I tested for blue belt in a kempo school in MA and took a serious beating, which I saw happen a lot and had no problem with - this was the late 1970's after all. Three weeks later I watched some fat kid waltz through the same test for the same belt I had bled for without sweating much less bleeding. Summoning some courage, I asked Sensei how this guy got the same rank I did. Here is what he told me: You come here to toughen up to get through graduate school and then you're joining the Army. I believe we provided that to you on your last test. This kid's mother wants him to gain self esteem while she gets time free to do who knows what. The way I see it, I have given both of you what you paid for.

I did get what I paid for, and that training later saved my life. Maybe instead of always criticizing dojos, parents and students should reassess their own values and goals.

[Shotgun Buddha]

For it to be a test there always has to be possbility of failure. I don't think you should let them grade till they're ready for it, but no point giving them a free ride, they won't learn from it.
Make it so they have to work for the test, but don't test them till they can do the work.

[IWishToLearn]

I test each student individually, privately, with invited black belts to watch and critique from other styles, and I video each test. I have a three tiered scoring system. Under 80% they fail and must wait at least 30 days to retest. 80-87% I consider Pass on Condition - and the student must make the necessary corrections and retest with 95% or higher before being allowed to continue to the new material. 88% and up is a straight Pass, and they need to make necessary corrections and demonstrate understanding of them before going to new material.

New belts and diplomas are given on a different date in a public ceremony.

Thus far I haven't had anyone fail, but I did have two that came into the Pass on Condition category.

[calmone]

I agree with a lot of what all of you are saying. I do however have some sticking points. Pre-testing someone and then telling them they can or cannot test isn't that the same as testing them? If a student makes a mistake at testing and you fail them is that fair. I make mistakes everyday of my life. Testing is for mental and physical perserverence. If a student tests and is not prepared they should fail. However, if you have a student that is mentally prepared and makes a mistake but corrects it, or, a student freezes not because they arent prepared but because of anxiety, shouldn't the tester or their instructor ease that. Because, not all of us are public speakers. I have a student that would freeze at every testing he had. But, when he would compete at tournaments he would win 1st or 2nd place everytime. We talked to his parents he had the same problem in school when they said test he would panic. We adjusted the testing a little. 3 years later he is doing just fine. What good would it have done if i had failed him 8 testings in a row. I did fail him the first time. If they give 100percent of themselves and make a small mistake. I do not believe in failing them. If they give 60percent and do everything correctly they should fail. They did not make an effort. Kind of like testing in school that is why they have a scale to their passing or not.
Testing should be public and each student should be based passed or failed on their individual effort. 1st and foremost do they know what they are doing.
2nd do they put forth the effort to impress the panel. 3rd are they physically and mentally capable of learning the next rank. Testing should never be based on if they make a mistake unless they make the mistake repetitively

[jks9199]

I agree with a lot of what all of you are saying. I do however have some sticking points. Pre-testing someone and then telling them they can or cannot test isn't that the same as testing them? If a student makes a mistake at testing and you fail them is that fair. I make mistakes everyday of my life. Testing is for mental and physical perserverence. If a student tests and is not prepared they should fail. However, if you have a student that is mentally prepared and makes a mistake but corrects it, or, a student freezes not because they arent prepared but because of anxiety, shouldn't the tester or their instructor ease that. Because, not all of us are public speakers. I have a student that would freeze at every testing he had. But, when he would compete at tournaments he would win 1st or 2nd place everytime. We talked to his parents he had the same problem in school when they said test he would panic. We adjusted the testing a little. 3 years later he is doing just fine. What good would it have done if i had failed him 8 testings in a row. I did fail him the first time. If they give 100percent of themselves and make a small mistake. I do not believe in failing them. If they give 60percent and do everything correctly they should fail. They did not make an effort. Kind of like testing in school that is why they have a scale to their passing or not.
Testing should be public and each student should be based passed or failed on their individual effort. 1st and foremost do they know what they are doing.
2nd do they put forth the effort to impress the panel. 3rd are they physically and mentally capable of learning the next rank. Testing should never be based on if they make a mistake unless they make the mistake repetitively

I disagree with you on the question of mistakes.

A student testing should know the material well enough not to make mistakes, and be able to perform those skills, at the appropriate level and under the pressure of the testing environment. Instead, you seem to be saying that if they ordinarily know the material -- but can't show it under pressure, they should be passed. In other words, to me, you're saying the test itself is meaningless.

I'm not saying that there should be no allowance for minor mistakes or even needing to restart a form once, maybe (rarely) twice. I don't expect a person testing for green belt to demonstrate brown or black belt skills, and I don't look for a 1st level black belt to have the polished skills of a more advanced black belt. The students response to their errors is something else I'd consider; if they freeze and lock up... they probably won't pass. If they adapt and roll with it... they might.

[Brandon Fisher]

I allow for very slight mistakes not big ones. Just because we are human adn mistakes happen. But the material has to be known under pressure, what if the student had to use it in a real life situation. Thats real pressure as I am sure alot of you know.

[bluemtn]

I allow for very slight mistakes not big ones. Just because we are human adn mistakes happen. But the material has to be known under pressure, what if the student had to use it in a real life situation. Thats real pressure as I am sure alot of you know.


I agree. I've seen fellow students fail because at test time, they just couldn't do what they were able to at a pre- test or class. Mistakes happen, and nerves sometimes will get in the way a little too much. At the test, we're given 3 tries at a tech. that we're not doing right, because of pre- testing. If you didn't do well at the pre- test, you wouldn't be at the test. Of course, you're allowed to redo the test and free of charge at regular class time.

[calmone]

Brandon Fisher said:
I allow for very slight mistakes not big ones. Just because we are human adn mistakes happen. But the material has to be known under pressure, what if the student had to use it in a real life situation. Thats real pressure as I am sure alot of you know.

this is what i was trying to get at i just didnt say it correctly

[Kacey]

I agree. I've seen fellow students fail because at test time, they just couldn't do what they were able to at a pre- test or class. Mistakes happen, and nerves sometimes will get in the way a little too much. At the test, we're given 3 tries at a tech. that we're not doing right, because of pre- testing. If you didn't do well at the pre- test, you wouldn't be at the test. Of course, you're allowed to redo the test and free of charge at regular class time.
That's what I do too.

[Balrog]

Been thinkin' about tests and testing of late. I've never failed a student who took a test from me. There's plenty I've pulled aside and told to wait another month. But to my way of thinking, if a student gets up on test day unprepared...

That's the teacher's fault. There's no way the student should have to face the humiliation of doing poorly and not receving rank for their teacher's innatention and slipshod work.


That's true up to a point. We require students to break boards when testing for higher rank. We have had students in the past who have broken boards by the carload in practice, then they just can't buy a board break on testing day. It happens, and it's a learning experience for the student about perseverance.



Again, I've told lots of students to wait another month. But I don't fail tests. You could say that the 'test' is really an exhibition and celebration, but the student is tested for rank in each class?That's my preference as well. I prefer to have a student sit out a testing rather than test when unprepared.

[bookworm_cn317]

I've failed some tests. The only one that really bothered me was failing my blue belt test in March. I felt like I let my instructor down.

[mjd]

I beleave if a student fails a test it's always the fault of the instructors, the instructors job is to teach, prepare, evaluate, examine, make judgements on the students behalf. The ulitate goal is to teach a student to defend themselves, this is the judgement instructors have to make, will they, can they do this, but in saying that roman wasn't built in a day.

I also believe that all students must be treated fairly, so I use pre-test, when students have met the required class time and have demonstrated they understand and can preform the material, they are invited to a pre-test, this is not a pass/fail it is a where are you at and what do we need to work on. Pre-test are schedule once pre-month, testing is randum, this way I can tell a student he or she is not ready and give them the reasons why.

Pre-testing is done outside of the normal class time and done with a panel of uppper belts, this also gives some good experience to ranks just below black belt to serve on the panel.

I think this works well, I have been doing this for 7 years now and since only one time I had an issue with failure, I had group of 7 teenagers that didn't take it serious so I stopped the test gave them a 20 minutes leacture, about half way through and gave them 30 days to think it over and re-tested them, they all but one came back and re-tested and did well.

[jdinca]

I beleave if a student fails a test it's always the fault of the instructors, the instructors job is to teach, prepare, evaluate, examine, make judgements on the students behalf. The ulitate goal is to teach a student to defend themselves, this is the judgement instructors have to make, will they, can they do this, but in saying that roman wasn't built in a day.

I also believe that all students must be treated fairly, so I use pre-test, when students have met the required class time and have demonstrated they understand and can preform the material, they are invited to a pre-test, this is not a pass/fail it is a where are you at and what do we need to work on. Pre-test are schedule once pre-month, testing is randum, this way I can tell a student he or she is not ready and give them the reasons why.

Pre-testing is done outside of the normal class time and done with a panel of uppper belts, this also gives some good experience to ranks just below black belt to serve on the panel.

I think this works well, I have been doing this for 7 years now and since only one time I had an issue with failure, I had group of 7 teenagers that didn't take it serious so I stopped the test gave them a 20 minutes leacture, about half way through and gave them 30 days to think it over and re-tested them, they all but one came back and re-tested and did well.

I've gotta disagree with your first sentence. If a student isn't ready and allowed to test, you have a point. Even in this case, some students will insist they be allowed to test and if they won't listen, then one of the best ways to get the point across is to allow them to test and fail. This has to be very selective though, based on the student. But if an instructor thinks a student is ready, and the student locks up for whatever reason and has a bad test, how can that be the fault of the instructor?

Pre-tests are a great idea. It's pretty standard for us to do a "belt prep" lesson before a student tests. I will agree that the instructor is being graded on the students test, just as much, if not more, than the student is.

[Kacey]

I've gotta disagree with your first sentence. If a student isn't ready and allowed to test, you have a point. Even in this case, some students will insist they be allowed to test and if they won't listen, then one of the best ways to get the point across is to allow them to test and fail. This has to be very selective though, based on the student. But if an instructor thinks a student is ready, and the student locks up for whatever reason and has a bad test, how can that be the fault of the instructor?

Pre-tests are a great idea. It's pretty standard for us to do a "belt prep" lesson before a student tests. I will agree that the instructor is being graded on the students test, just as much, if not more, than the student is.

I'm going to agree and disagree - students can fail; if they can't, it's not a test - it's a demonstration. However, whether or not a student tests is up to me - if I haven't cleared the student to test, and s/he shows up thing s/he'll test, s/he'll have quite a shock. I have had students fail, usually due to nerves, although I have had the occasional student who thinks s/he's hot stuff blow off testing (walk through techniques, not try, etc.) and fail that way - but it's fairly rare, because I won't let a student test if s/he can't pass - that's poor instruction - but neither is passing at testing guaranteed.

We always do a pretesting to determine who is ready to test - and my assistant instructor and I decide together who is and is not ready to test, and then the students are informed of our decision. If you're not ready, you don't test - and I've never had problems with it; in fact, when I've told students they aren't testing, the usual response is "thank you - I didn't think so either" - including one girl who was 13 at the time, who told me that she knew she wasn't ready, and if I had told her to test, was going to ask if she could wait for the next testing, because she didn't want to get up, do badly, and embarrass herself or the class.

[jdinca]

I'm going to agree and disagree - students can fail; if they can't, it's not a test - it's a demonstration. However, whether or not a student tests is up to me - if I haven't cleared the student to test, and s/he shows up thing s/he'll test, s/he'll have quite a shock. I have had students fail, usually due to nerves, although I have had the occasional student who thinks s/he's hot stuff blow off testing (walk through techniques, not try, etc.) and fail that way - but it's fairly rare, because I won't let a student test if s/he can't pass - that's poor instruction - but neither is passing at testing guaranteed.

We always do a pretesting to determine who is ready to test - and my assistant instructor and I decide together who is and is not ready to test, and then the students are informed of our decision. If you're not ready, you don't test - and I've never had problems with it; in fact, when I've told students they aren't testing, the usual response is "thank you - I didn't think so either" - including one girl who was 13 at the time, who told me that she knew she wasn't ready, and if I had told her to test, was going to ask if she could wait for the next testing, because she didn't want to get up, do badly, and embarrass herself or the class.

There's actually no disagreement here. I've never had a student go through a test without my approval, but it has happened on occasion. Typically, it's a young student with parents pushing from behind, or a student who's become somewhat "teacher deaf". It is on the rare side, though. I've also turned down a few students who wanted to test. Some students have been tested who didn't think they were ready just because I knew they were and wanted to give them a confidence boost. Trust me, I wouldn't do it if I hadn't mentally already passed them. These are usually tests done in a private lesson, as opposed to going before the belt board. If a student is moving well enough during the belt prep, I'll make it a test and the student doesn't know it until I say "congratulations".

These scenarios, for the most part, are all in the early belts. When a student gets to the point where they're ready to test for, say, advanced purple, or blue belt, things get much more structured. By this point, they should have a decent understanding of how the system works and what's expected.

[Rich Parsons]

I've gotta disagree with your first sentence. If a student isn't ready and allowed to test, you have a point. Even in this case, some students will insist they be allowed to test and if they won't listen, then one of the best ways to get the point across is to allow them to test and fail. This has to be very selective though, based on the student. But if an instructor thinks a student is ready, and the student locks up for whatever reason and has a bad test, how can that be the fault of the instructor?

Pre-tests are a great idea. It's pretty standard for us to do a "belt prep" lesson before a student tests. I will agree that the instructor is being graded on the students test, just as much, if not more, than the student is.

I agree with the comments here but also would like to add in that I have seen studnets do well in pre-tests or check outs, and then with the formaility of a test just fall apart.

If the student falls apart or gets lazy is it still the instructors fault, even though the student did well by themselves before the test?

[Kacey]

I agree with the comments here but also would like to add in that I have seen studnets do well in pre-tests or check outs, and then with the formaility of a test just fall apart.

If the student falls apart or gets lazy is it still the instructors fault, even though the student did well by themselves before the test?

One of the purposes of testing, IMHO, is to see how the student reacts on under pressure - how does the student perform when nervous? How does the student respond to errors? How does the student respond to a different voice (our testings are done by other instructors, not the students' instructor)? How does the student respond when asked to do something beyond their own level? If the class is testing with another class, how does the student respond to any of the differences between classes? To having a partner other than the person(s) they are used to from class? How well can the student block out anything that may be occurring outside the dojang? All of these questions address the question of reacting under pressure - which in turn speaks to how well the student knows and understands what s/he is doing. If you can't respond under the pressure of testing, how well do you really know what you've been taught?

Some things cannot be determined in the everyday dojang setting - one of those things is how students respond to novel stimuli, such as those described above. One of the purposes of testing is to help determine those questions - and to help students learn how to respond to variant stimuli while under stress - at least, that's the way I see it.

[bushidomartialarts]

If the student falls apart or gets lazy is it still the instructors fault, even though the student did well by themselves before the test?

I've had students (children) fall apart during a test. Public things here, with 50-100 spectators in attendance. Each time I did what was necessary to rescue the situation. Second shots, highlighting what they do know, whatever it took to salvage that child's dignity in public.

I figure it's my job, since I was the one who put them up not fully prepared in the first place.

[jdinca]

I've had students (children) fall apart during a test. Public things here, with 50-100 spectators in attendance. Each time I did what was necessary to rescue the situation. Second shots, highlighting what they do know, whatever it took to salvage that child's dignity in public.

I figure it's my job, since I was the one who put them up not fully prepared in the first place.

We don't allow spectators (except parents) at belt boards but there is at least a dozen instructors and black belts sitting at the front of the room. Some students thrive in this environment, some crash and burn and most are somewhere in the middle. If you KNOW a student is going to crash and burn under that type of pressure, then yes, it is your responsibility for putting them in that enviromnent in the first place. But if you don't know, then how can you place it on your shoulders? There's been a number of students who come to a belt board and the consensus is not to pass them based on their performance but, since it was due to the level of anxiety from the situation, they get tested in a private lesson within a couple of weeks and usually pass. It's all part of the learning process for the instructor, as well as the student.

[kidswarrior]

Been thinkin' about tests and testing of late. I've never failed a student who took a test from me. There's plenty I've pulled aside and told to wait another month. But to my way of thinking, if a student gets up on test day unprepared...

That's the teacher's fault. There's no way the student should have to face the humiliation of doing poorly and not receving rank for their teacher's innatention and slipshod work.

Again, I've told lots of students to wait another month. But I don't fail tests. You could say that the 'test' is really an exhibition and celebration, but the student is tested for rank in each class?

I agree pretty much hook, line and sinker. As a professional teacher, I and my colleagues are certainly held responsible for all kids' test scores, and we have virtually no say in who gets tested when. That's the other end of the spectrum. But for a student whom we MAists invite to rank test, we should have the judgement to know who is and is not ready.

'Exhibition' and 'celebration' are good ways to look at this. I actually prefer 'authentication', because I see it as a time for a student to prove to me, to senior students, and to her/his fellows that s/he's worthy of operating at the next level. It just authenticates what every class session for the past months has taught.

As far as it being a chance to examine them under pressure and to use novel situations, imho we can---and should--be doing that as a matter of course in our classes. So would I ever fail a student? Maybe one here or there, just as I can't save every student in my day job. Some are just determined to self destruct (can anyone say 'fear of success'?). But 98-99 out of 100 should be successful.

[Rich Parsons]

One of the purposes of testing, IMHO, is to see how the student reacts on under pressure - how does the student perform when nervous? How does the student respond to errors? How does the student respond to a different voice (our testings are done by other instructors, not the students' instructor)? How does the student respond when asked to do something beyond their own level? If the class is testing with another class, how does the student respond to any of the differences between classes? To having a partner other than the person(s) they are used to from class? How well can the student block out anything that may be occurring outside the dojang? All of these questions address the question of reacting under pressure - which in turn speaks to how well the student knows and understands what s/he is doing. If you can't respond under the pressure of testing, how well do you really know what you've been taught?

Some things cannot be determined in the everyday dojang setting - one of those things is how students respond to novel stimuli, such as those described above. One of the purposes of testing is to help determine those questions - and to help students learn how to respond to variant stimuli while under stress - at least, that's the way I see it.


We also rotate their facing to one not normally used during practice. You cannot believe how much of a difference for forms and other technique demonstrations when you change their prospective or perception of start and stop or what they see.

I work them in all facings and around but sometimes beginners are only used to practicing or mostly practicing facing in one direction only.

[Rich Parsons]

I've had students (children) fall apart during a test. Public things here, with 50-100 spectators in attendance. Each time I did what was necessary to rescue the situation. Second shots, highlighting what they do know, whatever it took to salvage that child's dignity in public.

I figure it's my job, since I was the one who put them up not fully prepared in the first place.

Saving the dignity of a child is a good thing in the long run.

[Kacey]

We also rotate their facing to one not normally used during practice. You cannot believe how much of a difference for forms and other technique demonstrations when you change their prospective or perception of start and stop or what they see.

I work them in all facings and around but sometimes beginners are only used to practicing or mostly practicing facing in one direction only.

I do that all the time in class - which is easier for me because my class meets in a different room on Monday than on Thursday, so it's harder for students to key off the same walls all the time anyway - but I have my students face all four walls and diagonals to teach them not to use the walls, so it won't matter what room they're in.

[jks9199]

I learned that one many years ago...

We were training outside, and many of us unconsciously oriented our movements in a few sets of the form we were working by the tree at one end of the park and the creek bed along another side... Then, for some reason, we turned around. (I think it may have been as simple as getting the sun out of our eyes... Or because we beat too deep a rut into the ground...) Quite a few of us suddenly got completely lost doing the set that we were clicking through without a problem before the turn!

Today, I've been known to have students change their start direction several times, start forms in the middle, do them backwards... All in an attempt to get them to actually look at the form -- and to make them rely on visualizing an opponent, NOT the wall!