Where did pinon 4 come from?

[MeatWad2]

Where did pinon 4 come from?
Did cerio make it up?

[almost a ghost]

kyoshukin Karate I believe, at least that's what I've read for pinons 1, 3, 4, and 5, pinon 2 being a creation of Cerio's.

[exile]

Are you folks talking about a kata form? Is this something related to the Pinan katas, the set of kata Anko Itosu created at the very end of the 19th century based, at least according to certain sources, on a single much longer Chinese form? The spelling gives that impression... ?

[RevIV]

Pinions 3,4, and 5 come from the shotokan Heieans (sp sorry) they are almost the exact same. Here is how i describe them to my students. 3,4,5 were taught to Prof. Cerio - he Kemponized them - he then taught them to GM Villari who then Kung-funized them. So you now have 3 generations of forms that have changed from the original intent. I do get confused about the origins of 1, which is my fault because i have been told it but it does not resemble Heiean Shodan at all and yes 2 pinion was made up by Prof. Cerio. If you look at some of the Hawaiian forms they have a good shotokan influence.
In Peace
Jesse

[thetruth]

My old instructor (no longer with him) told us that the pinan kata were 4 short katas learnt before kusanku to make it easier to learn. I don't know if there is any truth to this as my old instructor was not known for telling the truth

Cheers
Sam:asian:

[Hand Sword]

Intersting....From my talks with higher up, old schoolers, who knew Mr. Cerio, that, the forms came right out of a book, by Mas Oyama (Kyokushinkai system). At least 1, 3, 4, and 5. Number 2, he created himself.

[RevIV]

Intersting....From my talks with higher up, old schoolers, who knew Mr. Cerio, that, the forms came right out of a book, by Mas Oyama (Kyokushinkai system). At least 1, 3, 4, and 5. Number 2, he created himself.

I heard this too, but i also heard that there were very few Kempo organizations on the east coast (zero i think) so Prof. Cerio learned the forms to be part of a Shotokan Org. this way he had a board of people to talk and trade ideas with. This could be wrong and i am ok with this. But i do know that these forms are almost identical to the Shotokan Heieans. All of which i have learned to try and find some of the original meanings behind. Plus, i have a few black belts from Shotokan in my school and it is painful for them to do the forms a different way.
In Peace,
Jesse

[exile]

My old instructor (no longer with him) told us that the pinan kata were 4 short katas learnt before kusanku to make it easier to learn. I don't know if there is any truth to this as my old instructor was not known for telling the truth

Cheers
Sam:asian:

He wasn't wrong that there is some thinking that the Pinans did come from an earlier Chinese form which might well have been Kusanku, and that Anko Itosu created the Pinans on that basis. But the part about doing it to make it `easier to learn' Kusanku is up for grabs. Iain Abernethy has a detailed analysis of the Pinans in which he argues—very persuasively, I think—that each of the first three Pinans corresponds to a combat tech set for progressively closer fighting ranges, with the last two offering more advanced supplementary material. He's got the deepest technical analysis of the Pinans out there, I think. I have a link I can send you later to an article of his summarizing his results.

[marlon]

Pinions 3,4, and 5 come from the shotokan Heieans (sp sorry) they are almost the exact same. Here is how i describe them to my students. 3,4,5 were taught to Prof. Cerio - he Kemponized them - he then taught them to GM Villari who then Kung-funized them. So you now have 3 generations of forms that have changed from the original intent. I do get confused about the origins of 1, which is my fault because i have been told it but it does not resemble Heiean Shodan at all and yes 2 pinion was made up by Prof. Cerio. If you look at some of the Hawaiian forms they have a good shotokan influence.
In Peace
Jesse

It does resemble heien nidan in some systems as the 1st and 2nd have been inverted in some systems...it also resembles the taikyou 1 or fugayata 1 form i think

Respectfully,
Marlon

[marlon]

He wasn't wrong that there is some thinking that the Pinans did come from an earlier Chinese form which might well have been Kusanku, and that Anko Itosu created the Pinans on that basis. But the part about doing it to make it `easier to learn' Kusanku is up for grabs. Iain Abernethy has a detailed analysis of the Pinans in which he argues—very persuasively, I think—that each of the first three Pinans corresponds to a combat tech set for progressively closer fighting ranges, with the last two offering more advanced supplementary material. He's got the deepest technical analysis of the Pinans out there, I think. I have a link I can send you later to an article of his summarizing his results.


That would be very much appreciated

Marlon

[Danjo]

Oyama trained with Funakoshi and got his kata from him.

[exile]

That would be very much appreciated

Marlon

My pleasure—watch this space later on this evening...


Oyama trained with Funakoshi and got his kata from him.

Exactly right, and GF got them in turn from his teachers Azato and Itosu. Oyama kind of went his own way later on...

The funny thing is, there was a lot of criticism directed at Itosu for creating the Pinans. It was viewed as dilution of the art, turning karate in schoolchildren's games, which was what a lot of the hardcore karateka at the time—and it was a very hardcore time—thought about the Pinans. But they have terrific martial content!

[Shotochem]

I heard this too, but i also heard that there were very few Kempo organizations on the east coast (zero i think) so Prof. Cerio learned the forms to be part of a Shotokan Org. this way he had a board of people to talk and trade ideas with. This could be wrong and i am ok with this. But i do know that these forms are almost identical to the Shotokan Heieans. All of which i have learned to try and find some of the original meanings behind. Plus, i have a few black belts from Shotokan in my school and it is painful for them to do the forms a different way.
In Peace,
Jesse

As a former Shotokan guy myself, I can feel their pain. It just kills me sometimes how so many things are so similar yet so different. It really plays tricks with my old brain. I have to actively think about not doing them the way I learned them but the new way I am being taught.

[DavidCC]

He wasn't wrong that there is some thinking that the Pinans did come from an earlier Chinese form which might well have been Kusanku, and that Anko Itosu created the Pinans on that basis. But the part about doing it to make it `easier to learn' Kusanku is up for grabs. Iain Abernethy has a detailed analysis of the Pinans in which he argues—very persuasively, I think—that each of the first three Pinans corresponds to a combat tech set for progressively closer fighting ranges, with the last two offering more advanced supplementary material. He's got the deepest technical analysis of the Pinans out there, I think. I have a link I can send you later to an article of his summarizing his results.

Can I get a link to that article, too, please :)

[RevIV]

As a former Shotokan guy myself, I can feel their pain. It just kills me sometimes how so many things are so similar yet so different. It really plays tricks with my old brain. I have to actively think about not doing them the way I learned them but the new way I am being taught.

How do you do it. That would drive me nuts, kindof like how all the forms i have been learning have been changed about 5 times each since the time i started. Its the need to keep adding things to a system and not get rid of things that do not hold true anymore. Your 4 pinion i bet resembles very little to your Heien Yondan, but i bet you knew your bunkai better to the heien then to the pinion. And that is why the meanings get lost. On the flip side though through my experience i will go out on a limb saying that your self defense in most scenerios was inlightened when you joined Kempo.
In Peace
Jesse

[exile]

Can I get a link to that article, too, please :)

Hi guys, sorry this took so long—if you could see the state of my study at the moment you'd understand why it took me all night to find this article. Here's the link:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_10.asp

This will get you to the article, which gives some very suggestive background history. BUT...

... for a relentelessly detailed examination of the technical combat content of the Pinan/Heian katas, showing that in Itosu's time they were regarded not as a pattern within an overarching martial art but rather regard as a martial art on their own, take a look at the following links:

www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan1.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan2.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan3.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan4.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan5.asp

These articles constitute a short monograph on the combat system encoded in the Pinans, but recoverable with the aid of interpretation principles that UK karateka have in recent years spelled out in articles and books that are in effect users' manuals for combat applications of kata movements. Take a look at what IA has to say about the way in which the first three Pinans cover proressively closer fighting ranges, while the last two Pinans introduce more advanced and technically sophisticated ways of linking the techs in the first three Pinans.

By the way, I got all this stuff from IA's website, which is 100% free.

[almost a ghost]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwhYQmH6Dnw&mode=related&search=

[Matt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwhYQmH6Dnw&mode=related&search=

That's neat. I hadn't seen the kyokushinkai version. You can really see how the kyokushin folks really have a 'power' interpretation.

[Shotochem]

Strangely enough, I find that my bunkai and applications are even better than before. New style for me = more techniques different ways of thinking and more possibilities.

I have gotten more creative and brutal in my applications.:xtrmshock

Kempo is EVIL!!!! :)

[marlon]

Hi guys, sorry this took so long—if you could see the state of my study at the moment you'd understand why it took me all night to find this article. Here's the link:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_10.asp

This will get you to the article, which gives some very suggestive background history. BUT...

... for a relentelessly detailed examination of the technical combat content of the Pinan/Heian katas, showing that in Itosu's time they were regarded not as a pattern within an overarching martial art but rather regard as a martial art on their own, take a look at the following links:

www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan1.asp (http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan1.asp)
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan2.asp (http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan2.asp)
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan3.asp (http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan3.asp)
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan4.asp (http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan4.asp)
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan5.asp (http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan5.asp)

These articles constitute a short monograph on the combat system encoded in the Pinans, but recoverable with the aid of interpretation principles that UK karateka have in recent years spelled out in articles and books that are in effect users' manuals for combat applications of kata movements. Take a look at what IA has to say about the way in which the first three Pinans cover proressively closer fighting ranges, while the last two Pinans introduce more advanced and technically sophisticated ways of linking the techs in the first three Pinans.

By the way, I got all this stuff from IA's website, which is 100% free.


Thank you very much. I once heard that Motubo considered different forms as different fighting systems also. This is why for a while i was looking to find out how the kempo forms were done originally, in an attempt to find some insight into this concept of differing fighting systems. Most skk forms are done the same way but if you look deep enough some good things can be found.

Respectfully,
Marlon

[exile]

Originally Posted by exile
Hi guys, sorry this took so long—if you could see the state of my study at the moment you'd understand why it took me all night to find this article. Here's the link:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_10.asp

This will get you to the article, which gives some very suggestive background history. BUT...

... for a relentelessly detailed examination of the technical combat content of the Pinan/Heian katas, showing that in Itosu's time they were regarded not as a pattern within an overarching martial art but rather regard as a martial art on their own, take a look at the following links:

www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan1.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan2.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan3.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan4.asp
www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan5.asp

These articles constitute a short monograph on the combat system encoded in the Pinans, but recoverable with the aid of interpretation principles that UK karateka have in recent years spelled out in articles and books that are in effect users' manuals for combat applications of kata movements. Take a look at what IA has to say about the way in which the first three Pinans cover proressively closer fighting ranges, while the last two Pinans introduce more advanced and technically sophisticated ways of linking the techs in the first three Pinans.

By the way, I got all this stuff from IA's website, which is 100% free.

Thank you very much. I once heard that Motubo considered different forms as different fighting systems also. This is why for a while i was looking to find out how the kempo forms were done originally, in an attempt to find some insight into this concept of differing fighting systems. Most skk forms are done the same way but if you look deep enough some good things can be found.

Respectfully,
Marlon

You're quite welcome, Marlon; I'm really happy when someone is interested in Abernethy's stuff and more generally the research that that terrific group of UK karatekas/TKDists are doing on realistic bunkai interpretation. What you read about Motubo is quite right; on p. 60 of his landmark book Bunkai-Jutsu: the Practical Application of Karate Kata, Abernethy cites a passage from Motobu's writings that makes the latter's view clear:

The Naihanchi, Passai, Chinto and Robai styles are not left in China today and only remain in Okinawa as active martial arts

and goes on to comment: `In the preceding quote, you will notice that Motobu refers to the katas as styles and martial arts. This statement is further evidence that each and every kata is a complete system of fighting in its own right'. (p. 60) Bill Burgar, in his book Five Years, One Kata, describing his five year experiment in advanced training studying the bunkai of a single kata (Gojushiho) exclusively, makes the same point, citing Motobu's book Okinawa Kempo: Karate-Jutsu to the effect that for the karate masters of his day and earlier, the single kata that they were mastering actually constituted the technical content of their martial art. He has a very nice discussion of why training in karate changed so that kata, once identified with the art itself in this way, became seen as a kind of dispensible add-on to the `substantive' part—kihon/sparring mode of training which actually got going in the late 19th c. and became almost universal by the early 20th c.

My own take on MA history is that it's not decorative, giving you some mystical linkage to `ancient wisdom'—I've come to loathe that phrase!—but intensely practical: knowing a bit about the history can give you valuable ideas about the most effective technical application of kata and hyungs, and also make it clear when a form has become somewhat `garbled' by subsequent revisionists, obscuring the technical meaning of certain sequences in the kata. Recovering that meaning is sort of like trying to recover the content of a lost ancient text on the basis of several extant but textually corrupted copies. It can be done, but you need every bit of contemporary evidence you can get your hands on...

[Gufbal1982]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwhYQmH6Dnw&mode=related&search=


That's rad. check this one out...shorin pinan 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S49jJKN0_1Q

[Gentle Fist]

Just thought I would add this insight.

Current Cerio system forms that have elements from the Kyokushinkai Pinan set.

Pinan 1 - Kyokushinkai Pinan 1
Pinan 2 - Cerio Creation using kenpo combinations
Pinan 3 - Cerio Creation using kenpo combinations
Cat 1 - Kyokushinkai Pinan 3
Cat 2 - Kyokushinkai Pinan 4

Kyokushinkai Pinan 2 has some elements in the Cerio Pinan 2 and 3, but not many.

Kyokushinkai Pinan 5 was not used in the Cerio system.

[exile]

Just thought I would add this insight.

Current Cerio system forms that have elements from the Kyokushinkai Pinan set.

Pinan 1 - Kyokushinkai Pinan 1
Pinan 2 - Cerio Creation using kenpo combinations
Pinan 3 - Cerio Creation using kenpo combinations
Cat 1 - Kyokushinkai Pinan 3
Cat 2 - Kyokushinkai Pinan 4

Kyokushinkai Pinan 2 has some elements in the Cerio Pinan 2 and 3, but not many.

Kyokushinkai Pinan 5 was not used in the Cerio system.

Were the Kyokushinai Pinan/Heian kata any different from those created by Otuso and brought to Japan by Funakoshi? Did Oyama alter them in some way? Or it is just that Cerio was exposed to Kyokushinkai and learned the Pinans from that exposure?

[marlon]

You're quite welcome, Marlon; I'm really happy when someone is interested in Abernethy's stuff and more generally the research that that terrific group of UK karatekas/TKDists are doing on realistic bunkai interpretation. What you read about Motubo is quite right; on p. 60 of his landmark book Bunkai-Jutsu: the Practical Application of Karate Kata, Abernethy cites a passage from Motobu's writings that makes the latter's view clear:

The Naihanchi, Passai, Chinto and Robai styles are not left in China today and only remain in Okinawa as active martial arts

and goes on to comment: `In the preceding quote, you will notice that Motobu refers to the katas as styles and martial arts. This statement is further evidence that each and every kata is a complete system of fighting in its own right'. (p. 60) Bill Burgar, in his book Five Years, One Kata, describing his five year experiment in advanced training studying the bunkai of a single kata (Gojushiho) exclusively, makes the same point, citing Motobu's book Okinawa Kempo: Karate-Jutsu to the effect that for the karate masters of his day and earlier, the single kata that they were mastering actually constituted the technical content of their martial art. He has a very nice discussion of why training in karate changed so that kata, once identified with the art itself in this way, became seen as a kind of dispensible add-on to the `substantive' part—kihon/sparring mode of training which actually got going in the late 19th c. and became almost universal by the early 20th c.

My own take on MA history is that it's not decorative, giving you some mystical linkage to `ancient wisdom'—I've come to loathe that phrase!—but intensely practical: knowing a bit about the history can give you valuable ideas about the most effective technical application of kata and hyungs, and also make it clear when a form has become somewhat `garbled' by subsequent revisionists, obscuring the technical meaning of certain sequences in the kata. Recovering that meaning is sort of like trying to recover the content of a lost ancient text on the basis of several extant but textually corrupted copies. It can be done, but you need every bit of contemporary evidence you can get your hands on...


We think alike here. Thanks again....btw i am certified to teach naihanchi shodan as a complete martial art system. it is very interesting and learning a form / style this way enabled me to 'see' more in my kempo forms and even the combinations. very powerful way of seeing things. this approach also helped me teach the animal techniques of skk better as i veiw them as different styles of fighting. It would be a great asset if everyone could learn one form as a complete system of martial art...expands the mind and adds depths to your practice and has increased my ability to teach.

With respect to you and your efforts,
Marlon

[exile]

We think alike here. Thanks again....btw i am certified to teach naihanchi shodan as a complete martial art system. it is very interesting and learning a form / style this way enabled me to 'see' more in my kempo forms and even the combinations. very powerful way of seeing things. this approach also helped me teach the animal techniques of skk better as i veiw them as different styles of fighting. It would be a great asset if everyone could learn one form as a complete system of martial art...expands the mind and adds depths to your practice and has increased my ability to teach.

That's very good to hear—I agree with you wholeheartedly about the value of learning a single form in tremendous depth and breath of application. I'm beginning to think that there are others out there who are interested in pursuing this once-universal but now rare approach to MA training.


With respect to you and your efforts,
Marlon

Likewise, Marlon! I applaud your dedication to mastering the Naihanchi kata and digging out the combat secrets the Naihanchi set encodes. I am convinced that the real benefits of a kata as a fighting system will only be accessible to people who have made it a central focus of their training over many years.

Far be it from me to make extra work for anyone—but it sounds to me as if you might well have a good book in you on the Naihanchi fighting system... you'd certainly have a lot of customers for it... just a thought! :wink1:

[Shotochem]

We think alike here. Thanks again....btw i am certified to teach naihanchi shodan as a complete martial art system. it is very interesting and learning a form / style this way enabled me to 'see' more in my kempo forms and even the combinations. very powerful way of seeing things. this approach also helped me teach the animal techniques of skk better as i veiw them as different styles of fighting. It would be a great asset if everyone could learn one form as a complete system of martial art...expands the mind and adds depths to your practice and has increased my ability to teach.

With respect to you and your efforts,
Marlon

Hi Marlon,

Here is an excellent book for your study of the Niahachis as they are quite similar to the Shotokan Tekki series.
http://www.tamashiipress.com/graphics/bunkaitekki.jpeg


http://www.tamashiipress.com/books/elmar_schmeisser/bunkai_tekki.html


















It was a real eye opener for me.:eek:

It changed the way I went about my applications.

-Marc-

[marlon]

That's very good to hear—I agree with you wholeheartedly about the value of learning a single form in tremendous depth and breath of application. I'm beginning to think that there are others out there who are interested in pursuing this once-universal but now rare approach to MA training.



Likewise, Marlon! I applaud your dedication to mastering the Naihanchi kata and digging out the combat secrets the Naihanchi set encodes. I am convinced that the real benefits of a kata as a fighting system will only be accessible to people who have made it a central focus of their training over many years.

Far be it from me to make extra work for anyone—but it sounds to me as if you might well have a good book in you on the Naihanchi fighting system... you'd certainly have a lot of customers for it... just a thought! :wink1:

you say scary things. Thanks. Do you have a form that is your central focus?

respectfully,
Marlon

[marlon]

Hi Marlon,

Here is an excellent book for your study of the Niahachis as they are quite similar to the Shotokan Tekki series.
http://www.tamashiipress.com/graphics/bunkaitekki.jpeg


http://www.tamashiipress.com/books/elmar_schmeisser/bunkai_tekki.html


















It was a real eye opener for me.:eek:

It changed the way I went about my applications.

-Marc-

thank you.
marlon

[14 Kempo]

That's rad. check this one out...shorin pinan 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S49jJKN0_1Q

The movements seen here are very similar, but this looks to be pure Karate. The USSD version is done with much smoother and sometimes more flowing movements (as you know) and incorporating much of what is learned from leopard.

Some thoughts on leopard that are found throughout the USSD version of this form are, the leopard: will retreat to better its position; uses a single bound, single bite kill tactic; uses stealth to hunt; steps into its own foot steps as it stalks its prey; and minimizes movement.

I have not been able to find a video of this form showing the version I write about. Maybe I'll get around to it one of these days and post it on YouTube. I'll check the USSD videos to see if it does that form as it is taught in the school I attend (those were taped long ago).

[exile]

Hi Marlon,

Here is an excellent book for your study of the Niahachis as they are quite similar to the Shotokan Tekki series.

http://www.tamashiipress.com/books/e...kai_tekki.html
It was a real eye opener for me.

It changed the way I went about my applications.

Hey Shotochem, thanks for posting that reference—I'd seen a reference to that book before, lost track of it and had no clue where to look for it, so very much appreciate getting the info back—plan to get it from Amazon ASAP. :asian:




you say scary things. Thanks. Do you have a form that is your central focus?

respectfully,
Marlon

I've only been in the game a few years, still have another belt to go through before I test for Dan, so I'm very underexperienced compared to a lot of people on MA. But I have tried to think hard about the hyungs I've learned in TKD, and one of them in particular strikes me as worth detailed study—Palgwe Sa-Jang, the fourth in the series of TKD colored belt forms which bear the closest resemblance to Okinawan/Japanese kata without actually being Karate kata. The Palgwes contain large chunks of the Pinan/Heian kata in particular, kind of mixmastered together—but the crucial thing is, the `atomic' combat-scenario components which are strung together in fours and fives to make up the kata are themselves left intact; it's just that they're put together in different combinations than in the O/J forms. Palgwe Sa-Jang, for example, begins with a sequence directly out of Pinan Shodan—a high/mid double block combination, followed by what looks like an uppercut and then a knife-hand strike. There is an excellent bunkai analysis of this sequence by Iain Abernethy in kind of short monograph on the Pinan/Heians you can get from his website, which he demonstrates on his Bunkai-Jutsu video devoted to applications of the moves in the Pinan/Heians. But I've got a couple of others that I think are practical also, and need to experiment further with to nail down how well they work. I have bunkai worked out for a few of the other movement-sequences in that palgwe. So I guess I'd have to say that given my relative inexperience in TKD, this particular palgwe seems to be the one that I'm stpending most of my time working on.

As for writing a book... it sound to me as though you've got the knowledge to do it; if Bill Burgar could do it with the kata that was his life's work, Gojushiho, then we know it can be done, and Naihanchi—the kata that was in effect Funakoshi's main study project for much of his MA careers—has enough of a historical aura and gravitas about it that there would be a tremendous interest in what you were doing, always the most important incentive for a writer! As I say, I don't want to create extra work for anyone, but... it's something to think about, eh? :)