How many of you have made a real study of anatomy and it's implications into your practice/use of Kenpo???
Just wondering...
Your Brother
John

I do, though I usually have to get help from friends. I keep pestering my parents (dads a doctor, moms a PT) for clarification on where muscles attach, or how the nerves connect that aren't well shown in Grays. Two of my fellow instructors are nurses as well, one of which has done alot more exploration of anatomy than I have.

I've been mostly working on the arms and head so far, I haven't explored the torso and legs as much. My copy of Gray's Anatomy has little post-its on the pages for reference.

Lamont

Originally posted by Brother John

How many of you have made a real study of anatomy and it's implications into your practice/use of Kenpo???
Just wondering...
Your Brother
John

Mr. Duffy used to use a Gray's Anatomy Coloring Book as a teaching aid. It is of course very well illustrated.

I keep meaning to get one. His is very old, and that last time I looked at one for me it was like $30.00. I may ask for one for Christmas though now that you have reminded me.

The three resources I normally use are a 33 pg book called Human Anatomy in Full Color by John Green, The Anatomy Coloring Book by Kapit & Elson and a 2 video set I picked up at Sigung LaBounty's suggestion called The Video Atlas of the Human Anatomy.

I like the Anatomy coloring book because it tells you about the natural movement of the body and certain issues that joints may face. The Video Atlas is the weirdest thing I had ever seen. The dude was explaining the shoulder area and the ligaments and muscles,etc.....So I'm watching him use this dummy and then I'm like wait a minute that's not a dummy that is an actual part (I should say cross section) of an arm and shoulder...it is very graphic in explaining and SHOWING the muscles, joints, sockets, etc....if you have the stomach for it, it is an education. I found it on some obscure used college text reseller on the internet for cheap.

jb:asian:

... takes on a whole new meaning when you are talking about learning anatomy, eh? I started with NCKKA material, material in other Martial Arts books, and actual pressure point / medical anatomy charts. Then got the coloring book before Brown Belt, circa 1982-1983 and for Black actually got a Grey's Anatomy.

More than I can ever learn, or rather, more than I am willing to spend the time learning. Alas, I lost Grey's in a divorce in 1993 and have been unwilling to cough up the $$$'s to purchase a new one. I still highly recommend it as the definitive reference source.

I require my students to at least have a "working knowledge of applied kinesiology as referenced in Infinite Insights.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

Yes, it and several others are excellent sources of reference.

:asian:

Coloring is fun :)

The Video Atlas is the weirdest thing I had ever seen. The dude was explaining the shoulder area and the ligaments and muscles,etc.....So I'm watching him use this dummy and then I'm like wait a minute that's not a dummy that is an actual part (I should say cross section) of an arm and shoulder...it is very graphic in explaining and SHOWING the muscles, joints, sockets, etc....if you have the stomach for it, it is an education.

Heh, I remember when my mom was in PT school (I was about 10 or so), and she brought home a cadaver arm to do homework. Both really cool and disgusting at the same time.

Mr. Billings,

You can pick up Grays at B&N or Amazon for under 20 bucks, a good investment, or an expensive paperweight depending on how you look at it. :)

Lamont

I will have some Brown Belts coming up soon that could use it, for less than $20.00 it is a steal!

Muchos Gras,
-MB

After most kenpo lessons, I'd head home and check out the Anatomy Coloring Book to learn a little more about the targeting of strikes. I've also found some lecture notes on biomechanics (specifically, the lever actions of major bones and muscles) helpful when looking at joint locks, arm bars, and hyperextensions.

Using the reference books definitely adds another dimension to the kenpo learning curve....

Tad

Brother John,

Most Excellent topic!!


After studying the Martial Arts (although I'm a Kenpo newbie) for quite a while the subject of anatomy becomes more necessary.

I have Grays on the "short list" of my birthday presents to add to my reference library, along with a just a few Mosby manuals, and American Red Cross books.


and not only from the lethality applications ..............


The ability to have knowledge of anatomy also allows to assist a fellow martial artist (+ family, friends, and GASP... even stangers!) who may become injured in your presence.


Healing is more significant than hurting for the well balanced Martial Artist.

:asian:

Originally posted by Stick Dummy


Healing is more significant than hurting for the well balanced Martial Artist.

:asian:
Must...not...comment...:anic:

You need use the anatomy knowledge together with physics, i.e. the knowledge of the juncture alone is not enough to throw someone, you must know how to apply the momentum (sorry, english is not my mother tongue and I don't know how to explain this)

Dang!

Its not bad enough Seig lies down and goes to sleep while I'm instructing, now he's beating on the kinder, genteler Stick Dummy for "Caring & Sharing"

I got the Grays anatomy book for my B-day, and just have to get the coloring book too. Be fun to track this stuff on my Century "Bob" dummy.

Why physics to throw somebody in Kenpo?

If this sounds stupid sorry,
it is not meant to be a flame,

I've had this limb destruction thing going for a couple years now that I just can't kick..........

To know for example how to apply properly a leverage.
To know why the back up mass works, action-reaction principle. To know the principle of the conservation of movement, thus putting that to work to your advantage.
But unless you think anatomy is only necessary to know pressure points, in which a small pressure gets a lot of response, there's a lot of physics involved in martial arts as well

Originally posted by Kenpomachine

You need use the anatomy knowledge together with physics, i.e. the knowledge of the juncture alone is not enough to throw someone, you must know how to apply the momentum (sorry, english is not my mother tongue and I don't know how to explain this)


My friend,

Your English is very good, no need to apologise for it.

Les

PS
Good to see another European kenpo exponent on the forum, welcome

Thanks for the welcome, Les :)

I knew your patch remind me of something and DANG, one of the fomer students of my instructor is the representative for the AKKI in Spain, David Pérez de Lara. Great guy :)

Originally posted by Kenpomachine

Thanks for the welcome, Les :)

I knew your patch remind me of something and DANG, one of the fomer students of my instructor is the representative for the AKKI in Spain, David Pérez de Lara. Great guy :)


It sure is a small world.

Where abouts in Spain are you?

My parents live in Gran Canaria.

Les

I'm from Madrid, though I'd rather be in the Canarias now ;)

Lucía

We keep a skeleton with rubberbands representing nerves, to show location of nerve strikes. We also, like in jujitsu, do fall and throw training for throwing techniques. We have also recently added a joint lock (2) person kata to practice obtaining and transitioning differant holds and joint locks. We do 14 differant joint locks on each side ending in a throw. If you would like to see the Joint Lock Kata it is on Joe Simonet's Beyond Kenpo tapes. Excellent tapes by the way.

I had a Grey's Anatomy for years. Saw a Grant's Anatomy in a book store and haven't used the Grey's since. It cost $54.00, but it is worth every penny. It is in color and the breakdowns are superb. Take a peek when out browsing at the local book store.

white belt

Less time needs to be spent trying to figure out "why" and more on "how." The best reference is a good teacher explaining HOW to make something work. If you spend your time on the WHY, you'll never learn HOW. WHY comes much later AFTER you know HOW. The "scholar" was a "warrior" first, so he could make sense of the "why."

"How" is accurately reinforced by anatomy breakdowns as well. A good case in point is the generous Oriental Master with limited English vocabulary. "How" can become clearer sooner, with images beyond the skin, where words are sometimes lacking.

white belt

Originally posted by white belt
"How" is accurately reinforced by anatomy breakdowns as well. A good case in point is the generous Oriental Master with limited English vocabulary. "How" can become clearer sooner, with images beyond the skin, where words are sometimes lacking.

white belt

A teacher with the enability to communicate effectively with students, is not a good teacher no matter how knowledgeable or competent they may be. The best anatomy reference is the guy standing in front of you while the teacher watches and corrects.

I personally have students who are M.D.'s, Ph.D.'s, chiropractors, and acupuncturists. They seem to know pretty well what you will find in those anatomy books and charts, but they can't make a technique functional until I show them how. And no, their knowledge of anatomy, bone structure, and acupuncture points doesn't help them.

The HOW should always be the focus. It will take years before you even begin to understand WHY. Unfortunately Kenpo more than other arts, seems to be full of people who can't really DO the things they like to TALK about.

I described my circumstance. My teacher is a 9th Dan Grandmaster from Korea. His English is not the greatest, but he IS a good teacher. A good teacher learns to overcomes such obstacles. There are poor teachers who can and can't speak your native tongue. The medical implications are very good to know when it comes to any self defense art. The nonchalant attitudes are more easily turned to serious focus when safe practice of dangerous techniques is needed. Anatomy knowledge IS useful when pointing out the safety factors in training and the medical implications of various methods. Carotid attacks are hard to practice full power. They of course can be lethal if practiced carelessly. Showing a student on their body is needed first. Showing the interconnection and gravity of what they could do is helped with anatomy charts. I have a heart doctor and a physical therapist under my tutelage. They are more quick to understand the outcome of different techniques than say a Barber shop owner. Is the coordination there more quickly? I agree it isn't. But it still does not take from the above points. They, knowing more the dangers, tend to approach practice with a little more caution and respect. Knowing this, they can also recognize more quickly what not to use on drunk Uncle Bob when the beer runs out. Having some anatomical knowledge helps everyone. Do you think the old Masters would have been better off without the Dim Mak charts passed down through the generations too? Why do those exist, I wonder?

white belt

White Belt and Doc,

I'm not sure you two are disagreeing.

You have both stated that a teacher is required to show you how something works.

The rest is a tangent you two seem to be distracted by. I think most of your argument here is that Doc would prefer a teacher to be able to speak English but both of you are stating that a teacher needs to show you how to do something and both of you have illustrated how and why this is the case.

I don't think you truly have a disagreement on the topic of needing a teacher who can properly train his students.

White Belt-you seem to have a good teacher so I'm not sure what you guys may be disagreeing about.

Do you both believe that it is better if the teacher can speak the student's native language?
Do you both belive that a teacher Must speak a student's native language?
Do you both believe that it is possible to communicate effectively without being able to speak the same tongue?

I think these are the only points you two have in contention. If you want to carry this out will you please restate the premise that you are arguing? As should be obvious I think you have both made great points. Thank you. :asian:

Thanks for the input. I do agree with a good teacher being the best resource. My experience has been that proper hardcopy reference helps, too. If someone takes the two and switches their roles, then yeah, that's not very productive. What do you think, Doc? Do I understand your point?

CDHall, speaking of books, I picked up an extremely large hardcover book of Hapkido by Mark Tedeschi. The first chapter deals with how to throw the book at an assailant. :)

If I misunderstood Doc, my apologies to him. Good referee job Mr. Hall

white belt

Originally posted by white belt
Thanks for the input. I do agree with a good teacher being the best resource. My experience has been that proper hardcopy reference helps, too. If someone takes the two and switches their roles, then yeah, that's not very productive. What do you think, Doc? Do I understand your point?

CDHall, speaking of books, I picked up an extremely large hardcover book of Hapkido by Mark Tedeschi. The first chapter deals with how to throw the book at an assailant. :)

If I misunderstood Doc, my apologies to him. Good referee job Mr. Hall

white belt

Don't misunderstand. We're pretty much on the same page. (I have a tendancy to speak as if you were my student). With students, I just de-emphasize the "reference material" because it's basically useless in learning "how." Trust me, it really is.

But I also see here students striving to suppliment their instruction, which is a good thing when you feel the need. But students sometime become hipnotized by the accumulation of "information." I would rather they become hipnotized by their ability to execute and work on getting better at it. My students receive so much input from the teaching staff, they rarely go outside of our own study materials until they become senior instructors.

I'm sorry and I have to remind myself that my situation is unique and everyone can't teach in the demanding fashion that is the norm in our curriculum.

An instructor who cannot speak your language fluently will never teach you to a higher level. Imagine taking a physics class from someone who deosn't speak english.

Don't discard anything, but make sure it's actually helping you to "Stop that punch and knock that sucker down." :asian:

I may have misunderstood how far apart you two really were but I am glad that I was correct in assessing that you were largely in agreement.

I think I'm with you both
A) Good teacher is best and of primary importance
B) Reference materials can be useful but can not substitute for the good teacher

We agree on this? If so, then that is all I wanted to check on. I was just wanting to confirm what the common ground was. I've enjoyed both of your posts.
:asian: