special forces training

[chris_มวยไทย]

hi , does anybody know what martial arts are taught in the british and american army?

thanks,

chris

[SFC JeffJ]

Well, I wouldn't call what the US Army does a Martial Art. They combatives the are teaching right now are way to focused on ground work if you ask me. Somehow the Ft. Benning BJJ club got a lot of influence in the making of the new manual. Back when I was in, both Rangers and Special forces were mainly trained in the old Applegate/Fairbairn "WW II" style combatives. I'm pretty sure both SF and the Rangers still put a lot of emphasis on that.

I have no idea about what the Brits teach their soldiers for H2H.

Jeff

[chris_มวยไทย]

Well, I wouldn't call what the US Army does a Martial Art. They combatives they are teaching right now are way to focused on ground work if you ask me. Somehow the Ft. Benning BJJ club got a lot of influence in the making of the new manual. Back when I was in, both Rangers and Special forces were mainly trained in the old Applegate/Fairbairn "WW II" style combatives. I'm pretty sure both SF and the Rangers still put a lot of emphasis on that.

I have no idea about what the Brits teach their soldiers for H2H.

Jeff

thanks , o remember readong somewhere about an army teaching muay thai , i think it was on google......

[SFC JeffJ]

There are elements of many different styles that are in the current FM. From what I've been told a lot of kali "concepts" are in there. It's quite possible some from Muay Thai made it in as well.

Jeff

[CuongNhuka]

U.S. Army - modified BJJ + modified Tae Kwon Do
U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy - same as Army
U.S. Marines - as Army + modified Aikido + Mauy Thai + Kali.

The services also teach knive, bayoneted rifle, and pugel stick (think a long staff). But I'm not sure were they got it form. I have no idea what the Brits teach, but I imagine it's similar. Notice that the Marines teach the most. Why? Theres is more then just the good old fashioned "you learn it in boot camp, and that's about it". They have a defined ranking system (white, tan, green, brown, and then 6 degrees of black). When you go through boot camp you are trianed to tan belt. After that, learning more is optional. But you get points toward promotion, so folks have a reason to keep training.
And Jeff why would you not say that what the army teaches is not a martial art? The Marines even call there hand to hand combat program "Marine Corps Martial Arts Program" (or mcmap).

[Tez3]

The British Army doesn't teach martial arts as such though the Gurkha recruits do TKD. I've just Pmd you about something else but that will give the person and place to ask lol!

[jks9199]

U.S. Army - modified BJJ + modified Tae Kwon Do
U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy - same as Army
U.S. Marines - as Army + modified Aikido + Mauy Thai + Kali.

The services also teach knive, bayoneted rifle, and pugel stick (think a long staff). But I'm not sure were they got it form. I have no idea what the Brits teach, but I imagine it's similar. Notice that the Marines teach the most. Why? Theres is more then just the good old fashioned "you learn it in boot camp, and that's about it". They have a defined ranking system (white, tan, green, brown, and then 6 degrees of black). When you go through boot camp you are trianed to tan belt. After that, learning more is optional. But you get points toward promotion, so folks have a reason to keep training.
And Jeff why would you not say that what the army teaches is not a martial art? The Marines even call there hand to hand combat program "Marine Corps Martial Arts Program" (or mcmap).

I'm curious about your sources...

As far as I know, only the USMC has an actual "martial art" approach to teaching their hand-to-hand combatives. (Google Marine Corp Martial Arts, and you'll surely find info on it.) It's a relatively new development, though the USMC has had a systematic approach to hand-to-hand for at least 15 or 20 years, under a few different names. I used to work with a former Marine who had been part of the team developing and teaching their Line Combat System (or something similar in name) in the mid to late 90s.

Otherwise, my understanding is that military hand-to-hand is like police defensive tactics. It uses some moves that are common to many martial arts, unified under some common principles and goals. For a cop, that's survival and getting the bad guy cuffed & stuffed; for a soldier, it's survival, and killing an enemy when you are forced to use bare hands. BOTH emphasize that going hands-on with someone isn't exactly the ideal goal... It's more something to do when the ideal situation has fallen apart.

The various special forces, as I understand it, just get more practice and more intense focus on using the hand-to-hand because they stand a greater chance than a "ordinary" soldier to actually have need for using them.

It's important to understand that military (and law enforcement) training doesn't really have time to teach much hand-to-hand, and that they're not going to devote a lot of their limited time to martial arts type defensive training. It's not their game... Beyond the standard training, many cops and many service members do seek out more advanced training on their own time. (This is where you get the people bragging about "teaching to law enforcement and the military" all too often... For law enforcement, if they're not a certified defensive tactics instructor, odds are very good that they're also not a formal training resource for law enforcement. I'd be willing to bet there are similar qualifications for military instructors.)

Oh... and as to pugil sticks... They're basically a combined aggression training/bayonet practice tool. The strikes and blocks used are the same as for bayonet, which is a very simplified spear system.

[chinto01]

I know when I went through boot camp the hand to hand combat portion was a two day crash course which I thought was pitiful. But then again there was other things to get done also. When I went on to my second phase of training the hand to hand was a little more organized but that was because our Drill Instructor was a BB in judo. Thank goodness for my own training.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

[Blindside]

My kali instructor is a contract instructor for one of the SF groups. It is voluntary for the members, if they want to do it, they come to his classes for no charge, and he puts on a couple intensive weekends over the year that get more attendance. This is not systematic, it is just what this one particular group has decided to do.

Lamont

[SFC JeffJ]

My kali instructor is a contract instructor for one of the SF groups. It is voluntary for the members, if they want to do it, they come to his classes for no charge, and he puts on a couple intensive weekends over the year that get more attendance. This is not systematic, it is just what this one particular group has decided to do.

Lamont
What group if I may ask?

When I was in 5th, we had a few guys who worked with us ocassionally like that.

Jeff

[Blindside]

What group if I may ask?

When I was in 5th, we had a few guys who worked with us ocassionally like that.

Jeff

19th SFG

[CuongNhuka]

I'm curious about your sources...

As far as I know, only the USMC has an actual "martial art" approach to teaching their hand-to-hand combatives. (Google Marine Corp Martial Arts, and you'll surely find info on it.) It's a relatively new development, though the USMC has had a systematic approach to hand-to-hand for at least 15 or 20 years, under a few different names. I used to work with a former Marine who had been part of the team developing and teaching their Line Combat System (or something similar in name) in the mid to late 90s.

Otherwise, my understanding is that military hand-to-hand is like police defensive tactics. It uses some moves that are common to many martial arts, unified under some common principles and goals. For a cop, that's survival and getting the bad guy cuffed & stuffed; for a soldier, it's survival, and killing an enemy when you are forced to use bare hands. BOTH emphasize that going hands-on with someone isn't exactly the ideal goal... It's more something to do when the ideal situation has fallen apart.

The various special forces, as I understand it, just get more practice and more intense focus on using the hand-to-hand because they stand a greater chance than a "ordinary" soldier to actually have need for using them.

It's important to understand that military (and law enforcement) training doesn't really have time to teach much hand-to-hand, and that they're not going to devote a lot of their limited time to martial arts type defensive training. It's not their game... Beyond the standard training, many cops and many service members do seek out more advanced training on their own time. (This is where you get the people bragging about "teaching to law enforcement and the military" all too often... For law enforcement, if they're not a certified defensive tactics instructor, odds are very good that they're also not a formal training resource for law enforcement. I'd be willing to bet there are similar qualifications for military instructors.)

Oh... and as to pugil sticks... They're basically a combined aggression training/bayonet practice tool. The strikes and blocks used are the same as for bayonet, which is a very simplified spear system.

A martial art is any form of self defense that can and has been passed on through the generations. Since all the serives have been teaching hand to hand combat for as long has they have been around, they are (by definition) martial arts. Though they are pretty much taught as an aggretion tool.

[SFC JeffJ]

19th SFG
Reserves or Guard? Or is that one of the ones that was NG or Reserves and is now active?

Jeff

[Blindside]

Reserves or Guard? Or is that one of the ones that was NG or Reserves and is now active?

Jeff

Guard, but they have been active for several years now, or at least the elements that I interact with have been. I don't know much about their structure, it just isn't something we talk about.

[matt.m]

Well, I wouldn't call what the US Army does a Martial Art. They combatives the are teaching right now are way to focused on ground work if you ask me. Somehow the Ft. Benning BJJ club got a lot of influence in the making of the new manual. Back when I was in, both Rangers and Special forces were mainly trained in the old Applegate/Fairbairn "WW II" style combatives. I'm pretty sure both SF and the Rangers still put a lot of emphasis on that.

I have no idea about what the Brits teach their soldiers for H2H.

Jeff

Jeff, I agree. I was at Barnes and Nobles before my knee surgery. Anyway, I saw this book. I couldn't help but feel sorry for these guys. I did hand to hand and riot control in Haiti.....The last thing I wanted was to be on the ground.

MCMAP was evolved from the old L.I.N.E. system of the 80s and 90s. It isn't predominately ground based. I have a dan in judo so I am not afraid of ground work. It is just that it is bad to be on the ground with multiple attackers. Plus it is hard to roll with all that gear on.

Just a thought.

[Rook]

I'm curious about your sources...

As far as I know, only the USMC has an actual "martial art" approach to teaching their hand-to-hand combatives. (Google Marine Corp Martial Arts, and you'll surely find info on it.) It's a relatively new development, though the USMC has had a systematic approach to hand-to-hand for at least 15 or 20 years, under a few different names. I used to work with a former Marine who had been part of the team developing and teaching their Line Combat System (or something similar in name) in the mid to late 90s.

The marines run through a heavily BJJ based Basic Combatives program, and the MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial arts Program) is a seperate program intended to "encourage fighting spirit." LINE is no longer used in any branch of service, although it had some role in the development of the MCMAP.


Otherwise, my understanding is that military hand-to-hand is like police defensive tactics. It uses some moves that are common to many martial arts, unified under some common principles and goals. For a cop, that's survival and getting the bad guy cuffed & stuffed; for a soldier, it's survival, and killing an enemy when you are forced to use bare hands. BOTH emphasize that going hands-on with someone isn't exactly the ideal goal... It's more something to do when the ideal situation has fallen apart.

The various special forces, as I understand it, just get more practice and more intense focus on using the hand-to-hand because they stand a greater chance than a "ordinary" soldier to actually have need for using them.

Well, various elite special forces units have there own frequently changed H2H programs based around their needs and also use various contract instructors. For a while JKD's Tony Vunak worked with SEALs on the Easy Coast, and for a while MMA's Ken Shamrock worked with many west coast SEALs. In the past, many martial arts have been used briefly (including shotokan karate, hapkido, and a host of ecclectic systems), although from my understanding each one was short lived.

Unfortunately, many groups don't make any part of the H2H training public even after it is no longer in use, so that leaves us open to endless claims from people that they taught the SEALs, Delta Force, the SAS, or some made-up force no one has heard of in order to gain credibility with the gullible.


It's important to understand that military (and law enforcement) training doesn't really have time to teach much hand-to-hand, and that they're not going to devote a lot of their limited time to martial arts type defensive training. It's not their game... Beyond the standard training, many cops and many service members do seek out more advanced training on their own time. (This is where you get the people bragging about "teaching to law enforcement and the military" all too often... For law enforcement, if they're not a certified defensive tactics instructor, odds are very good that they're also not a formal training resource for law enforcement. I'd be willing to bet there are similar qualifications for military instructors.)

Agreed.

[Cruentus]

US Army Combatives is a BJJ based program with some of the Applegate stuff still mixed in (mainly bayanette and knife).

It is important to remember that military hand-to-hand training is used more as a tool for building comradary, confidence, and "fighting spirit." This is seen by trainers as being more important then effectiveness, actually. This is why grappling based programs are more of a focus. It is not that pulling a combat knife or weapon of opportunity wouldn't be more effective on the field during the rare encounter where a firearm isn't deployable. It is that wrestling with each other is a great confidence, endurance, and team building exercise.

SOF (SF, MI LRS, Ranger, RECON, SEALS, etc.) may decide to pursue additional hand-to-hand training with the unit. This is usually done as OPTIONAL training outside of regular drills and exercises. Even when civilian instructors are "contracted" to teach these units, it is almost always done as an optional, or intermural programs.

[matt.m]

To correct Rook....The Marine Corp's MCMAP is not heavily BJJ. It is more TKD, HKD, or Aikido styled. It is improved upon the L.I.N.E. system. More targeted towards belts coloring and a certain cirriculum.

The Marine Corps knows that going to the ground in a fight with gear on is stupid. Multiple attackers in war means you want to stay off the ground.

I am a Former Marine Corps Sgt., I served in Haiti, Albania, Liberia, Bosnia 2x. So I know a little about riot control, war and hand to hand. I also have a Gunnery Sergeant pal whose unit served with mine in Haiti cirra 1994. He showed me the MCMAP cirriculum, it is an improvement to L.I.N.E. which was all standup, I know I taught it as an instructor.

[Cruentus]

Matt, what did you think of the old line stuff?

From what I remember, it seemed pretty cool to me. But some are very critical of it, and I am not knowledgable enough in that system to know why.

Since you used to teach it and are a Marine, it would be cool to get your opinion! :)

[matt.m]

Matt, what did you think of the old line stuff?

From what I remember, it seemed pretty cool to me. But some are very critical of it, and I am not knowledgable enough in that system to know why.

Since you used to teach it and are a Marine, it would be cool to get your opinion! :)

Hand to hand combat is quick and clumsy when talking about average joe fights. Also combat is a group activity. The idea is like football almost start at point a and make it to point b. You certainly don't all day to have a fight so L.I.N.E was based off of groin strike, hammer fist strikes and joint take downs. Kicking was Muai Thai style with shin, inside thigh and knee kicking. The whole thing was designed to keep you standing and your opponent looking at the sky.

Great for fighting in a crowd, not the best one on one in a ring environment.


MCMAP is a definite improvement, but it is still.....you keep standing at all costs. I have seen far too many people get brutally damaged during a fight when they were on the ground looking at the sky.

[Cruentus]

Cool; thanks Matt.

I remembered from what some Marines showed me of the LINE system was that it seemed like they were trying to move "through" the opponent to get somewhere rather then "squaring off" as if to spar them. It seemed very tactically sound to me considering the battlefield environment.

Another question, if you don't mind: What was the basic origin of LINE? I thought someone told me way back when that it was mostly an Isreali system modified to meet Marine standards?

I agree with the idea that you shouldn't be looking to spar or roll around on the ground with your opponent if you ever get into a H2H situation on the battlefield. The grappling has its place and does its job for the army basics, but as a soldier I would seek additional training if that was my only experience. Rangers and SF have some FMA with sticks and knives worked into their program, which is a good thing. I would think that it would be more likely that you will have a weapon of opportunity or combat knife available for H2H rather then grappling and working submissions unarmed as the best option. And I understand that the army "Combatives" authors based the doctrine behind the old Col. Applegate saying that "the one who wins the hand-to-hand fight is the one who's buddies arrive with the rifle first." This statement may hold some truth in the right context, yet in small teams, like LRS 6 man teams for example, you don't have the luxary to wait for your friends. Not to mention, what if his friends are likely to arrive first, regardless of what team your on!? I like the idea of going through my attacker to get to safety or a weapon, rather then sticking around and sparring or rolling with him.

Just my thought on the subject.

[Cruentus]

Just to add to this sort of dead topic;

I just picked up "H2H - Modern Army Combatives" by Greg Thompson and Kid Peligro: http://www.h2h.us/info.html

For those interested in the current army program, besides getting a copy of the field manual, I highly recommend this book as well. It is very well done with great illustrations and abilities to connect techniques and concepts together in book format.

Though there are still some things that I would personally do differently then the MAC program, however, I can see where this has evolved already, at least compared to SFC Matt Larsons revised edition of FM-21-150 where BJJ was introduced as the foundation, You can see some discussions on this here for background, as well as some of the "yays and neighs" : http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10166&page=1&pp=15

What I saw in this version (called MAC) that wasn't emphasized as much in the manual is an expansion on the idea that "the one who gets to a weapon 1st wins the H2H encounter." So quite a bit was dedicated to weapon retention and control/clinching/grappling tactics geared towards getting to a weapon quickly (knife, gear, firearm) rather then competitive grappling, although competitive grappling was still the primary foundation of skills. This idea and emphasis something I am definatily on board with, as when I taught/teach some of our soldiers, I emphasize getting to a combat knife or firearm quickly rather then just rolling.

Again, there are still some things I would do differently if I were in charge, but it is nice to see the evolution of this going in a positive direction...

:)

[kaizasosei]

i found it really interesting when i saw some military training where they would all form a large circle and then take turns fighting inside it...not unlike the ufc but with a more carefree nothing special attitude.




j

[Kage-Ronin]

U.S. Army - modified BJJ + modified Tae Kwon Do
U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy - same as Army
U.S. Marines - as Army + modified Aikido + Mauy Thai + Kali.

The services also teach knive, bayoneted rifle, and pugel stick (think a long staff). But I'm not sure were they got it form. I have no idea what the Brits teach, but I imagine it's similar. Notice that the Marines teach the most. Why? Theres is more then just the good old fashioned "you learn it in boot camp, and that's about it". They have a defined ranking system (white, tan, green, brown, and then 6 degrees of black). When you go through boot camp you are trianed to tan belt. After that, learning more is optional. But you get points toward promotion, so folks have a reason to keep training.
And Jeff why would you not say that what the army teaches is not a martial art? The Marines even call there hand to hand combat program "Marine Corps Martial Arts Program" (or mcmap).


Howdy,

Chief Petty Officer, USN here. Just as a point of clarification: regular joe navy sailors do not receive any H2H combat training as part of a regular curriculum.
The SF portions I believe do their own thing, (SEAL/ SWCC/ EOD), but don't quote me on that.
We do get some very basic, dumbed-down take-down and arresting skills taught as part of our security response training on a one-time occurence - but that is it. (In my opinion it is next to worthless.) And if you don't fill that billet, you don't get that training.
Just thought you should know.

~Rob Acox

[HelloKitty]

my master trained with groups of US army and air force when he was younger. i think they recieve training in several tipes of martial arts and other techniques.

[chinto]

hi , does anybody know what martial arts are taught in the british and american army?

thanks,

chris
last I heard they were using an amalgimation of the old WWII Aplgate/Fairbairn combatives and some techniques from tkd and a bunch of the bjj stuff has been added becouse its 'populer' and the MMA sport popularity.

I would sugest that if you want to train, I have known some special ops people who all trained in a traditional style and then did the training that the army gave.. When I asked they all said "every one in the special operations comunity study some art, usulay one of the older traditional arts."

[Guardian]

I'm curious about your sources...

As far as I know, only the USMC has an actual "martial art" approach to teaching their hand-to-hand combatives. (Google Marine Corp Martial Arts, and you'll surely find info on it.) It's a relatively new development, though the USMC has had a systematic approach to hand-to-hand for at least 15 or 20 years, under a few different names. I used to work with a former Marine who had been part of the team developing and teaching their Line Combat System (or something similar in name) in the mid to late 90s.

Otherwise, my understanding is that military hand-to-hand is like police defensive tactics. It uses some moves that are common to many martial arts, unified under some common principles and goals. For a cop, that's survival and getting the bad guy cuffed & stuffed; for a soldier, it's survival, and killing an enemy when you are forced to use bare hands. BOTH emphasize that going hands-on with someone isn't exactly the ideal goal... It's more something to do when the ideal situation has fallen apart.

The various special forces, as I understand it, just get more practice and more intense focus on using the hand-to-hand because they stand a greater chance than a "ordinary" soldier to actually have need for using them.

It's important to understand that military (and law enforcement) training doesn't really have time to teach much hand-to-hand, and that they're not going to devote a lot of their limited time to martial arts type defensive training. It's not their game... Beyond the standard training, many cops and many service members do seek out more advanced training on their own time. (This is where you get the people bragging about "teaching to law enforcement and the military" all too often... For law enforcement, if they're not a certified defensive tactics instructor, odds are very good that they're also not a formal training resource for law enforcement. I'd be willing to bet there are similar qualifications for military instructors.)

Oh... and as to pugil sticks... They're basically a combined aggression training/bayonet practice tool. The strikes and blocks used are the same as for bayonet, which is a very simplified spear system.

This explaination hits it right on the head. We did not have time either in the Air Force, all our H2H training came on our own for our duties as cops. We were taught a crash course also and after that, your on your own as far as training. I don't know if I would say they are a Martial Arts in the manner that we look at Martial Arts as a name, but if they want to call what they do a Martial Art, who am I to argue with them.