Which do you actually do?

[Master of Blades]

Which one do you actually do? Kali, Escrima or Arnis? And who actually seriously practices and not just as an add on to another class.....:rofl: :shrug: :asian:

[K Williams]

Modern Arnis

[arnisador]

Modern Arnis, all the time--plus the Kali in (Vunak-style) JKD.

[lhommedieu]

Eskrima

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/index.htm

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Modern Arnis and Balintawak Escrima.

:samurai:

[Rich Parsons]

I Train and Teach Modern Arnis

and I also study Balintawak Escrima.

[Master of Blades]

Hmm.........seems Kali isnt very popular up around you guys is it!

[lhommedieu]

Cf. Mark Wiley's "Filipino Martial Culture" (Tuttle) pp. 307-44 for an interesting discussion regarding the use of the terms "kali," "eskrima," and "arnis" for various Filipino martial arts.

Wiley's argument is paraphrased in my post under the "FMA Vocabulary Needed" thread.

See also my post (Reply #21) on the "Influence of Spanish Renaissance Swordsmanship..." post on the public forum of the Dog Brothers' website: www.dogbrothers.com

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Master of Blades

Hmm.........seems Kali isnt very popular up around you guys is it!


Well if you look at most of the influence to Modern Arnis for the stick fighting it came from teh Presas Family Style whihc I beleve they called Escrima as well as the Balintawak Escrima. From what I heard, and I maybe wrong, it was decided to use the term Modern Arnis versus some Escrima name. Since, in the area the term Arnis was not being overly used if used at all.

As Pointed out by the esteemed previous poster and his reference to Mark Wiley's Book and and the post as referenced, discuss the terms used, and some of the history.

Study all the stories and posts and then go and ask your own questions to the old Manong Masters and then make your own determination.

Just my thoughts.

Train well everyone

Rich
:)

[ace]

Ive dabeled in a couple of others.
Like Kali , Buno & Balintawak

:cheers:

[The 14th Style]

Eskrima
Mostly Serrada, some Largo. It is the only art I do. I would love to learn Dumog and Cadena de mano, i've seen a little. One of the things I love About the FMA's is that there are so many styles and systems to learn from, it's like an endless banquet.
Resectfully The 14th Style

[Dan Anderson]

Modern Arnis from Remy Presas, Modern Arnis 80 (my curriculum based on my teacher's instructions) and I am hoping to add Balintawak Escrima shortly.

Dan Anderson

[arnisador]

The board has a lot of Modern Arnis members. The survey is not very scientific.

[dearnis.com]

Certainly more time teaching/training Modern Arnis, however currently most of my time is spent as a student of Sayoc Kali.
Chad

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by dearnis.com

Certainly more time teaching/training Modern Arnis, however currently most of my time is spent as a student of Sayoc Kali.
Chad

Chad,

For those of us who have not trained in the Sayoc Kali, could you start another thread and do maybe a compare contrast of the two arts you mentioned, Modern Arnis and Sayoc Kali. I understand that the Sayoc is largely Knife based. Just curious to learn more.

Rich
:cool:

[Black Grass]

All of the above. There is no difference.

Black Grass

[Seigi]

I train in Modern Arnis.

Peace

[Bob Hubbard]

Primary art : Modern Arnis. (Working towards Blue Belt...)

Secondary arts:
Kenpo, Wing Chun, Northern Shaolin Sword

Trinary arts:
Japanese Sword (Iaido, Kenjitsu, etc), Dha (believe its part of Bando???), Ninjutsu, jojutsu

[arnisador]

I've split this thread; the other posts are here (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4446).

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Master of Blades

And who actually seriously practices and not just as an add on to another class.....:rofl: :shrug: :asian:


I think some of the people missed this part of the thread. I do FMA as my primary art. How many others do the same?

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Renegade

I think some of the people missed this part of the thread. I do FMA as my primary art. How many others do the same?

I do the same (under Mr. Hartman).

[dearnis.com]

also train/teach FMA as primary.

[Rob Wilson]

I am a practitioner of Ernesto Presas Kombatan and I am currently at Brown level. I practice Dumog, some silat and I have attended one two-day MARPPIO seminar, and a Kalis Illustrisimo seminar. I have been practicing FMA for two years and eight months.

[Master of Blades]

Yeah, Ive been doing it for about 3 years here. It will be 4 in March. I havnt really ever done any other arts besides this and a couple of others but have never stuck to them. Its been Kali for me all the way. My teacher wants me to get fantastic in one system before I try overloading my brain in other ones. I personally agree with this and instead of cross training I spar lots of differant styles full contact to keep me on my toes and ready for mostly anything.

:rofl: :shrug: :asian:

[Red Blade]

I do JKD Kali and a little Modern Arnis. I do them as an add on.
:cool:

I find it funny that I don't see many Modern Arnis people listing here as a full time art.

:confused:

[BWright]

Modern Arnis.
This is the only art I study.

[dearnis.com]

"Don't see many Modern Arnis people listing here as a full time art."

Not so much funny as sad. Professor taught the seminars as a combination outreach program/ongoing instructor development program. The instructors were supposed to go back and have some kind of program, whether teaching a single training partner, or a whole boat-load of people. Instead it seems like many left sticks laying around the school, scheduled every third Tuesday as Arnis night (subject to change if something else came up), and concluded that they "taught arnis" becasue their students had token requirements from MA added at key belt levels.
Of course these are the same sorts that thought Professor had changed the art if something different came out at a seminar
This does lead to the question of whether you can legitmately study two arts at the same time as full time arts. I think most people can do so with good teaching. Now developing a personal expression which blends the two in free-flow or semi-sparring; that is another question.

[Stickfighter72]

I practice and teach more Pekiti Tirsia and some Inosanto blend Kali, here!!!!


I also have practiced for about a year or 2 in Serrada Eskrima until I had to move away from my instructor. I was really liking that system. We done alot of Largomano, Kadenademano, Panantukan, Silat, deCuerdas as well as medio/corto range fighting...... Simply because Serrada is an more upclose and personal range of stickfighting...

[Damian Mavis]

Sticking to the original question, out of the 3 I do Kali.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Master of Blades]

Yay....another Kali person!!!!!!

[Guro Harold]

Primary Filipine Arts: Modern Arnis & FCS-Kali

[John J]

newbie here...

Bakbakan Kali / Kalis Ilustrisimo


Yours in the Arts,

John G. Jacobo
BAKBAKAN International

[bart]

Hey,

I officially do Doce Pares Eskrima. In my mind I think of it as Arnis and when I describe it to my filipino relatives I have to use the terms Arnis or Arnis De Mano or they don't know what I'm talking about right off the bat. I think it may be a regional thing (Luzon as opposed to Visayas).

Bart

[Dave Fulton]

In my opinion, "A rose by any other name ..." ... they're all the same inspite of what a lot of people try to argue.

However, I call our art "arnis" because that's what my teacher calls it, which is what his teacher called it (although my teacher's teacher now calls it "kali").

Whatever you want to call it, it involves sticks & blades and it's effective.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

Full Contact Martial Arts Association

[John J]

Hey Dave,

I agree with you for the most part. Most systems of Arnis, Kali & Eskrima have obvious similarities in techniques etc...

However, Kalis Ilustrisimo is predominantly a SWORD art. Although it is true that some techniques are interchangeable with stick, the obvious differences are in the motion and usage. In fact, there are subtleties with sword techniques that if not executed properly will either negate the effectiveness or render it useless.

On a similar note, most blunted systems were NOT drawn from the sword or bladed weapons.

I posted these points on several forums and apologize if it has already been seen by some of the Members here.

John G. Jacobo
BAKBAKAN International

[bart]

Hey There,

I have to agree that they pretty much mean the same thing, but I have to assert that I didn't hear about "Kali"until I read Dan Inosanto's book. I'd lived in the Philippines and taken "Arnis" in our school for a part of YDT or Youth Development Training and then also at a camp for the Philippine Boy Scouts. I'd heard it referred to as "Arnis" more than anything else. My Uncle is from Cebu and he told me about Doce Pares Eskrima. But he used to "Doce Pares" as the term rather than "Eskrima". But not once did I hear about "Kali". On a trip back to Manila in 1997 I asked about "Kali" and people thought I was talking about the Hindu deity. Whenever I said "Arnis" they knew what I was talking about. I was for the most part talking with lay people and not FMA practitioners.

When I was in Cebu a few years later, the people referred to what they did most often by the Proper Name of the Style as opposed to the generic term of "Eskrima and we were all regarded as "Eskrimadors" in general. This is much like kung-fu practitioners will more likely refer to themselves as doing Wing Chun or Choy Lai Fut or Tai Chi as opposed to Kung Fu. The same goes with Karateka. They will say Kenpo or Shotokan more often than karate in general conversation. "Kali" was rarely mentioned and it seemed to be thought of more as the American word for "Eskrima". But in a multi lingual society like the Philippines, language is much more flexible than it is here in the monolingual US. So people don't get hung up on terminology so much as just being a means to getting the idea across that you want to impart.

Kalis Illustrisimo would of course be sword based as a "kalis" is a type of sword. You can see it on most "Weapons of the Moroland" plaques.

About the sword and stick things not relating to the development of each other, I have to disagree. The spanish kept detailed records and though they didn't really chronicle the FMA, they did chronicle technology. They introduced domestic steel to the Philippines. Before that time, often traditional wooden weapons were superior to the metal weapons made in the Philippines. Really durable metal weapons were brought by Arab, Chinese, and Indian traders. The record of Magellan's defeat is filled with details of fire hardened wood, and other wooden weapons. They were amazed by the weapon quality metal the Spanish had. Although taken from secondary sources it implies that if FMA existed then that it incorporated both wooden and metal weapons.

Before modern times, we can do nothing but conjecture. In modern times we can draw quite a nice developmental link especially in Cebu, which I believe is even where Kalis Illustrisimo finds its roots. Almost every system claims both blunt and edged weapon techniques. The Doce Pares system does. Balintawak does as does the Maranga. I think the interelation between the two is quite obvious.

I have not seen the posts that were made earlier on other forums to demonstrate the separation of development. Can you please post this information here? I'm always open to new information and my opinion is not set in stone. If there is empirical data to back up the claims, I would be willing to count it as true.

Bart

[John J]

Hi Bart,

You are correct about the term "kali" as it was relatively unknown in the Philippines. My father always mentioned Arnis de Mano or Armas de Mano.

Thank you for the brief history. I am familiar with the evolution of these fighting arts too and are not questioning the development or correlation of the 2 weapons as the influence was evident.

However, I wanted to point out that NOT ALL systems were drawn from blade work especially the more contemporary ones.

I hope to have clarified my point.

John G. Jacobo
BAKBAKAN International

[bart]

Hi John,

The only thing that I was disputing was the statement:


"most blunted systems were NOT drawn from the sword or bladed weapons"

It was really just the "most" in the comment that I wanted to talk about. I agree that there must be some that don't find interlocking roots. But as for most of them, I think they definitely share development.

[Dave Fulton]

Hi John,

I was not attempting to start a debate on the differences between blade vs. stick oriented systems, but I can see that my last sentence may have given that impression.

I was simply pointing out that I don't see any concrete differences that are inherent in the terms arnis, escrima and kali. They seem to simply be different generic terms for fighting arts from the Philippines. Granted, the various styles that they are used to refer may differ dramatically, e.g. Pekiti-tirsia is very different from Serrada Escrima. However, Serrada Escrima is also very different from San Miguel Escrima. My understanding is the G.T. Gaje used the term Pekiti-tirsia Arnis in the late 1970's and later switched to Pekiti-tirsia Kali.

Long story short, which term a teacher uses seems to be more of a matter of preference.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

Full Contact Martial Arts Association

[arnisandyz]

I don't "officially" train in any system, but i sure do have alotta fun!

[John J]

Hey Dave:

>but I can see that my last sentence may have given that impression.

Not at all Dave. This is often the problem with exchanging dialogue over the net. I too am not interested in a debate but simply to point the common misconceptions found in FMA. I just wanted to reiterate the distinction between sword and stick techniques.

Bart:
>But as for most of them, I think they definitely share development.

My conservative guess is there are over 200 styles or systems in the Philippines, if not plenty more. Through publications, only about 50 have had exposure. OUR thoughts are merely speculation. The only sure way of knowing is to trace back the development & evolution of each style / system of Arnis & Eskrima.


John

[arnisandyz]

The only sure way of knowing is to trace back the development & evolution of each style / system of Arnis & Eskrima.


John [/B][/QUOTE]


This would be imposible to do. Many of the older Masters did not document or openly teach thier art and in many cases, the art died with them. I've heard many stories of people not even knowing their own family member (an old uncle or great grandpa, etc.) was an arnisador.

[arnisandyz]

Someone mentioned to me that even FMA is not an accurate term to describe ALL of the Martial Arts of the Philippines since the "F" represents the name Philippines which was named after King Philip of Spain. Some food for thought.

[John J]

>This would be imposible to do.

You do realize I was just making a point NOT a suggestion.

>Someone mentioned to me that even FMA is not an accurate term to describe ALL of the Martial Arts of the Philippines

The primary use of F M A was simply an acronym to Filipino Martial Arts.

John

[arnisandyz]

You do realize I was just making a point NOT a suggestion.

Yup. Just adding to your thread for the other members who might not be as knowledgable on the difficulty in documenting our art. Don't take it personal.


The primary use of F M A was simply an acronym to Filipino Martial Arts.

John [/B][/QUOTE]


What about the arts that are pre Spanish? They were not called Filipino as that developed from being named by the Spanish. I'm just throwing stuff out there to see what others think. When dealing with the history of FMA it can be very confusing as we don't have manuscripts of history of the art like the monks in China did for KungFu.

[Damian Mavis]

Anyone know why the Phillipines martial arts are called FMA? FILIPINO martial arts? Is this just a spelling mistake that we keep encouraging through recurring use?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

Anyone know why the Phillipines martial arts are called FMA? FILIPINO martial arts? Is this just a spelling mistake that we keep encouraging through recurring use?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


Phillipines - is the country

FILIPINO - is the singular.


This is like living in America being an American.

[Damian Mavis]

Really? This is internationally accepted or just a U.S. thing?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Datu Tim Hartman]

To my knowlege this is the case. I have been corrected by Remy himself.

[John J]

>Don't take it personal.

No offense taken. In fact, like yourself, I just wanted to make sure others knew I had no intention of spearheading such a task. It can be difficult at times to convey your thoughts in writing.

>What about the arts that are pre Spanish? They were not called Filipino as that developed from being named by the Spanish.

You are certainly correct. The history of FMA has always been a bit unclear. However, there is no doubt that indigenous fighting arts existed. Some of the pre Spanish terms were used to describe the art, method or movements were: Kaliradman, Sinawali, Pagkalikali, Kalirongan, Didya, Kaboroan, and Ibanag to name a few. I may have incorrectly spelled some due to the various dialects.

John

[John J]

Filipino or Pilipino can be seen as synonymous. However, some of my peers would prefer the following:

Filipino - from or related to the Philippines

Pilipino - a native from the Philippines

John

[arnisandyz]

Because it is called Filipino Martial Arts. Filipino (Filipina - female) refers to that which is from the Philippines whether it be people or things. It would be like calling African Martial Arts – Africa Martial Arts or Mexican food – Mexico food. I think the real question should be why is Filipino spelled with an "F" and not a "PH"? In addition you could also question why it only has one "p" rather than two as in PhiliPPines.

[arnisandyz]

John,

your seem very accurate with your facts (and even your assumtions) with Filipino history (as cloudy as it is). I enjoyed reading your posts and look forward to more.

Salamat

Andy

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by John J

Filipino or Pilipino can be seen as synonymous. However, some of my peers would prefer the following:

Filipino - from or related to the Philippines

Pilipino - a native from the Philippines

John


Not only the spelling, but the pronunciation I've heard go both ways "F" and "P"

[Master of Blades]

So Basically what you're saying is it all boils down to names....

[Damian Mavis]

Honestly I was thinking that the U.S was spelling Phlipino, Filipino because it seems right or is easier? Not dissing American spelling or anything just I've seen words change in the States before and thought maybe this was the case.

As an example, I went to a bank machine in the States and received a receipt that said Cheking account instead of Chequeing account.

Sorry to kind of go off topic.


Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[thekuntawman]

i practice and teach kuntaw and arnis/eskrima. for many years i was calling my stickfighting "arnis" but now i say "eskrima" since most of the people i know here in california say eskrima. its funny, when i talk to my brother, sister and my mother, i still say "arnis".

i teach a separate class for the kuntaw i was taught, and my own style of kuntaw. i also name my arnis style "gatdula fighting arnis" which is a combination of all the techniques i like the most in eskrima. in my fighting eskrima i only teach the single stick and the single knife, maybe i might add stick and knife, but it depends to who wants it, and how good they are with the techniques i taught them already.

for Filipino/pilipino:
many filipinos spell "F_ilipino" but they say "P_ilipino". when you speak, you call it "pilipinas" which means its the style of the philippines. but a person is "pilipino". this is why i call the art "philippine martial arts" not "filipino....." a filipino is the person, philippines is the country.

also i would like to say that i think saying your style is "prespanish is ridiculous. nothing we have has not been touched by the spanish, that is what makes us pilipino. the same way you cannot say who was your great great great grandfather, and thats in your own family, how can you tell us something about the art passed from ANOTHER family? the word "pre spanrish" is a commercial thing to make your art more authentic. people should not get sold out to things like that. the bottom line is, can somebody take this things your teaching, and whip some ass with it, or not? if you want to call it "pinoy tae kwon fu" if your technique works and your training and knowledge can make a weak man strong, then you have all the credibility in the world, more than some "pre spanish authentic passed down ancient"style.:D

okay i'm finish with my :soapbox:

[arnisandyz]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thekuntawman

i would like to say that i think saying your style is "prespanish is ridiculous. nothing we have has not been touched by the spanish, that is what makes us pilipino.

I personally wasn't (nor do I think other members) were saying that "my" art is pre-spanish. Only that the Philippines did have a fighting style, system or whatever BEFORE it was touched by the Spanish, and because of poor documentation or records of history, it is difficult to say exactly what that was or to what extent the indegenous material was changed due to Spanish influence. I don't deny there are people who are taking advantage of this.

Andy

[bart]

Hi There,

This is my understanding of the Filipino, Pilipino, Philippines, and Pilipinas subject. We need to recognize that we are dealing with a subject that came into Modern American English after a history under the Pre Magellan, Spanish, American, and Filipino people.

Question: Why Filipino with an "F" and not a "Ph"?

In the English speaking world the Philippine Islands, named after King Philip of Spain are referred to as "the Philippines" for short. In Spanish they are referred to as "Las Islas Filipinas" or Filipinas, because the Spanish for Philip is Felipe and the word Isla is feminine hence "of Philip" would have to be converted to the feminine, Filipa. Thus directly translated The Islands of Philip or The Philippine Islands becomes in Spanish "Las Islas Filipinas". That's why there's an F.

Question: Why is Pilipino spelled with a "P" and not an "F" sometimes?

In Tagalog there is no native "F" sound, meaning that in native Tagalog words there are none that contain "f". The closest sound is "p". In tagalog and the mixture of tagalog with other native languages of the Philippine archipelago that was and is called Pilipino, words are spelled phonetically, as in exactly how they sound. In Pilipino, the Philippines are called Pilipinas and a person of the Pilipinas is a Pilipino/a depending on gender. Before the Spanish came to the Philippine Islands, the indigenous people didn't refer to the place they lived under a unified term, they identified there place of living as the Island that they lived on, or the part of the island that they lived on, like "Sugbu", or "Maynilad". This is very much how if you ask some from the UK where they live, they will most likely respond with the city or the region first, like Bath or Wales. The Philippines was united by the Spanish under one colonial government. The Spanish gave the region the name that they came up with for it: Las Islas Filipinas. Later when the "Republika Ng Pilipinas" gained independence from the US it took on the name the islands were unified under during 300+ years of colonial government, but they spelled it according to what was present in their language hence "Pilipino", "Pilipinas", and "Pilipino/a".

Question: What's the deal with "Philippino" instead of "Filipino" or vice versa?

When the US conquered the Philippines following the Spanish American War, the US colonial government came into contact with the English version "Philippines" and the Spanish version "Filipinas". The US did everything in English. So you find US newspaper articles in the early 20th century that use "Philippino". But that's a real pain to spell and you find gradually that the American English Terminology for "of the Philippines" becomes the Spanish Masculine "Filipino". You can find that on US Census forms today and on many other government forms including the ones I just used to get my daughter a birth certificate.

In English, there is no change of the ending of an adjective, due to masculinity or femininity of the noun as that structure does not exist in the same sense in English as it does in Spanish or other Romance languages. So since "art" has no gender, a "martial art" of the Philippines is referred to as a Filipino Martial Art aka FMA. This predominance of FMA as the term came about most assuredly because the practice of FMA was first made popular in the Western World in the United States as the Philippines was a colony of the US until 1945 and has very close relations still.

Question: Which one is correct?

They all are depending on the language you're coming from or who you are quoting. Though not interchangeable, the terms mean roughly the same thing, with differing connotations if you understand the historical and cultural background of the term. In short I would say, don't get caught up in the terminology if you aren't willing to lay the intellectual groundwork. Without that groundwork, everything is nothing but conjecture. Focus on techniques and martial practice anyway, because it's unrealistic to expect every practioner of the art to be a walking history book on the Philippines. And just because a person doesn't know the terminology doesn't mean they don't have the skills.

Question: What are your resources?

I speak Tagalog, Spanish, and English, some better than others. I paid attention in my Philippine History and Government Class in High School where our teacher went to great lengths to show Filipino kids how the Philippines was portrayed in the US and the rest of the world. I read a lot about the FMA in English, Tagalog, and Spanish.

Hope this clears some stuff up.

[lhommedieu]

The argument for recognizing distinct pre-Hispanic Filipino martial arts is made by Mark Wiley in Filipino Martial Culture. He states that the term "Kali" should not be used in this context, and argues in favor of using the indigenous-language term for the variety of different arts that existed prior to the Spanish occupation. Martialtalk Forum readers who are interested in this topic may also want to look at the "Influence of Spanish Renaissance Swordsmanship" thread on the Dogbrothers Public Forum.

Re. "Pilipino vs. Filipino," the following essay can be found at: http://store.escalate.com/store/turoturo/article11.jsp

The author is a professor at San Francisco State University.

"As a Filipino people, we had been completely mixed up and entangled in our colonial past. When we think we have shaken away the vestiges of the Spanish colonial experience, some mundane things such as the way we define ourselves to others reveal how ingrained we have become to the Hispanic cultural influence. For example, the Tagalog term for our race and nationality is "Pilipino", as in "Pilipino ako." (I am a Filipino). In determining someone's nationality we say "Pilipino siya." (He/She is a Philippine native). This sentence cannot be literally translated, because "siya" is a gender neutral pronoun; we can only know the gender of this person by the sentence context. The indigenous Philippine language has no gender differentiation, yet occasionally we apply the gender rules for figures of speech following the Spanish language. We use "Filipino" to refer to individual males from the Philippines, and "Filipina" for individual females. However, when we refer to the people in general, we use "Filipinos", following the Spanish language structure rule.
Many of my colleagues at San Francisco State University had asked me as to when it is proper to use Pilipino and when to use Filipino. I indicate that for purposes of my own idiosyncracy, I use "Pilipino" in two ways. I use the term whenever I want to refer to the people within a Tagalog sentence construction. However, for the same thought expressed in English, I use the word "Filipino". For example the Tagalog sentence, "Pilipino ang salita ng mga Pilipino." when expressed in English becomes "Pilipino is the language of the Filipinos". The words "Pilipino" and "Filipino" have the following meanings:

1) A collective noun, denoting any citizen of the Philippines and refers to both female and male. The Spanish word "Filipino" referring to the people has been adapted in all written English documents. One finds the term "Filipino" used more and more often in the literature and in writings in English, whereas when writing in the Philippine National Language the term is "Pilipino". For example, "The Filipinos are the fastest growing minority population among Asian Americans".
2) "Filipino" is a noun for a male native or citizen of the Philippines. Example: "My friend is married to a "Filipino".
3) "Pilipino" is a noun for the Philippine National Language which is claimed to be based on Tagalog. Since I am Tagalog-speaking, I see no difference whatsoever between what is called the Philippine National Language, and my mother tongue. In my opinion, Pilipino is 98% Tagalog, and we are coopting and perpetrating the hypocritical stance of the Institute of National Language when we keep on mouthing their definition of the National Language as Tagalog-based or as other sociolinguists insist is a syncretic language with borrowings from other Philippine languages.
4) "Pilipino" is an adjective, as in Wikang Pilipino (Philippine Language) or Ugaling Pilipino (Philippine Custom). The debate on the use of "Pilipino" and "Filipino" came during the Constitutional Convention of 1973 when some scholars and linguists, began to question the use of the word "Filipino". The reasoning goes like this: Since there is no letter "f" in the Tagalog alphabet, the right term is "Pilipino". This means that we should call ourselves "Pilipino", our nationality is "Pilipino", and our national language is "Pilipino". The assumption is that we as a nation cannot pronounce "f" because the sound is alien to us. The usage of "Pilipino" began to proliferate. Strangely enough, the Filipino Americans began to use the word "Pilipino" because of the movement of seeking roots in Philippine culture among the Filipinos in America.

There are many who disagree on the use of "Pilipino" for three reasons. First, we no longer use the "baybayin" , apparently of Sanskrit or Arabic origin--an ancient syllabary of 17 symbols where the letter "f" is non existent, and "O" and "U" are interchangeable as well as "E" and "I". We had adopted the Latin alphabet. Second, during the Spanish colonial rule (378 years, 1592-1889), the population had been introduced to the Spanish language. In fact we were then called "Filipinos" after the country "Las Islas Felipinas." Even our own family names have the letter "F". I would hate to have my own name changed to "Plores". Thirdly, we had been educated in the English language, and English became the language in our schools and the instructional tool during the American administration (1889-1945). Since then, English had been the lingua franca of the Philippines. The public school system and the introduction of mass education had mandated that all subjects from Grade three on - primary school, secondary and tertiary levels of education - be conducted in the English language. So, to say that we cannot pronounce "f" is to heap insult on our intelligence and capacity to be trained in speech. It is like saying to Americans to change all English words ending in "ge" as in "garage", "mirage ", "collage" because these are French words and the English speaker can never pronounce the terminal "ge" sound. During President Corazon's Aquinos term, the word "Filipino" began to creep back into correct usage. We have since come a full circle from the 1970's when the nationalistic fervor dictated a return to indigenous alphabet sounds to the 90's when we have become more cosmopolitan in thinking and in accepting common usage and borrowed sounds. To summarize, when using the English medium it is therefore correct to use Pilipino with a "P" when referring to the Philippine National language, and to use Filipino with an "F" when referring to the people, to the race, and to nationality. When using any of the Philippine languages (Tagalog, Ilokano, Cebuano, Ilongo, Bicol, Pampangan, Pangasinan), then the issue becomes moot since one cannot have any other resort except to use the "p" spelling or sound. One more nagging question comes to my mind. At the Treaty of Versailles when "Las Islas Felipinas" (named after the Spanish monarch Felipe II) was ceded by Spain to the US, the name was Anglicized to "The Philippines" (King Philip II) to reflect the change. Why then did we not change our national nomenclature and called ourselves "Philippinos"? I have a theory. We are as uncomfortable with the phoneme "Ph" as we were originally with "f". Another thing, can you imagine debating which is the correct spelling: one "p" or double "p"? It would be deja vu all over again. I think the Hispanic undercurrent influence still runs deeper than we want to admit."

- Penelope V. Flores

[arnisandyz]

Bart and lhommedieu,

Excellent description and references to the "P"-"PH"-"F" and "PP" confusion.

Thanks

[arnisandyz]

This may be to big of an undertaking for this forum, buy while we are on the subject, what are the major differences between the Visayan language and the Tagalog. Does Tagalog have more Spanish and Visayan more Indonesian? There is a local Filipino store in our area, and the owner is Visayan, however he had no problem communicating with my wife in Tagalog. My wife mentioned that many Visayans also can speak Tagalog because along with English, that is what is taught in schools.

Thanks

[arnisandyz]

Bart and lhommedieu,

Excellent description and references to the "P"-"PH"-"F" and "PP" confusion.

Thanks

[arnisador]

I thought this was indeed something of a mixture of languages, including Spanish, but with a strong basis in a native language. In fact, the term also refers to a cultural group.

From here (http://www.worldlanguage.com/Languages/Tagalog.htm):



Tagalog, with the stress on the second syllable, is the national language of the Philippines. In 1962 it was made the country's official language and given the new name of Pilipino. Tagalog is the mother tongue of about 15 million people, most of whom live in southern Luzon in an area that includes Manila. Its study has been strongly encouraged by the government and it is estimated that over 75 percent of the population at least understands the language.

Tagalog is a member of the Malayo-Polynesian family of languages. The three centuries of Spanish rule in the Philippines left a strong imprint on the vocabulary. Mesa (table), tenedor (fork), papel (paper), and asero (steel) are only a few of hundreds of Spanish words in Tagalog.


My impression has been that the effect of other languages on Tagalog has been significant, from speaking with Pilipinos.

[Damian Mavis]

All you guys know so much about Philipino culture... all I know about is getting yelled at in Tagalog by my Philipina girlfriends. Wish I had learned the language and more about the culture while I had the chance.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

all I know about is getting yelled at in Tagalog by my Philipina girlfriends.

Well, that's bound to happen when you have girlfriends instead of just a girfriend.

[Damian Mavis]

I meant throughout my life! sheesh, I don't know why but I landed up in relationships with 4 Philipina girls throughout my life. I have some sort of Philipina girl attractor device thingy or something because they always find me.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[J-kid]

err spelling

But i have a expert showing me it once a week and i like it, Soon there is gonna be a stick fighting clinic at my Gym for a weekend.
Sounds like great fun, I plan on Particapating i like alot of there moves. Intresting trapping motions.

[Master of Blades]

Hmmm.......I just figured that this post was kinda pointless because it isnt specific enough. I missed out all of you who do other Filipino arts such as

Arnis Defense Silat

Bakbakan Kali

Balintawak Arnis

Balitok Eskrima

Bandalan Doce Pares Eskrima

Black Eagle Arnis-Eskrima

Cabales Serrada Escrima

D'Katipunan Arnis

Dekiti Tirsia Siradas Arnis

Doblete Rapillion Arnis

Estalilla Kabaroan Eskrima

Garimot Arnis

Giron Arnis Escrima

JKD/Kali

Kalis Illustrisimo

Kalis Kalis ng Tinagalogan

Lameco Eskrima

Lapunti Arnis de Abaniko

Latosa Escrima

Lightning Scientific Arnis International ( :confused: )

Modern Arnis

Moro-moro Orabes Heneral

Pananandata Marinas

San Miguel Eskrima

Sayas-Lastra Arnis

Sayok Kali

Tulisan Caballero Taga Herada

Sorry, everyone was showing off there little bit of knowledge so I thought I would join in. But it does lead me to my next question...

"What is with the Differant spellings of Escrima/Eskrima?"

Does anyone know :confused:

[arnisandyz]

"What is with the Differant spellings of Escrima/Eskrima?"


No "C" in the Tagalog language. Perhaps the "C" was introduced from the Spanish Alphabet?

By the way, I train in FCS Kali, (Sayoc Kali, Modern Arnis, Pekiti Tirsia blend) and some informal largo stuff my uncles taught me when I was young.

[Master of Blades]

Yeah that sounds right.......I do the Inosanto/Lacoste system of Kali or JKD/Kali as they call it now days.

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by arnisandyz
"What is with the Differant spellings of Escrima/Eskrima?"


No "C" in the Tagalog language. Perhaps the "C" was introduced from the Spanish Alphabet?

By the way, I train in FCS Kali, (Sayoc Kali, Modern Arnis, Pekiti Tirsia blend) and some informal largo stuff my uncles taught me when I was young.

Would you also say wiith bits of Lameco, Pambuan, and Inosanto/Lacoste 'blend' for flavor? Then there's always the Kuntao-Silat elements Al keeps bringing in, but I guess these things are specific to our training group, and not FCS Kali as a whole.

Cthulhu

[lhommedieu]

My understanding of the difference in spelling (which I take from Mark Wiley's Filipino Martial Culture ) is that both terms derive from the Spanish word esgrimar , which can mean "to skirmish."

Wiley states that "escrima" is an improper adaptation of the tem that was taken into the Tagalog language during the Spanish occupation of the Philippines; "eskrima" is the accepted romanization of the term based on the current Tagalog alphabet, which contains no letter "c."

While "eskrima" may be used more often today, neither "escrima" nor "eskrima" was originally a Tagalog term. Furthermore, the use of the term "escrima" is not incorrect insofar as it may accurately reflect the historical and cultural tradition of a specific school or style.

I suspect that this means that when Tagalog-speaking people used the term orally, it sounded exactly like "escrima" or "eskrima," but when the term was written by Spanish-speaking people they used either a "c" or a "k."

Best,

Steve Lamade

[Master of Blades]

Thanks for the help but what I'm interested in now is Lightning Scientific Arnis International cuz I wanna know what the hell that is.....:confused:

[lhommedieu]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
Thanks for the help but what I'm interested in now is Lightning Scientific Arnis International cuz I wanna know what the hell that is.....:confused:

Wiley has a chapter about LSAI in Filipino Fighting Arts

Best,

Steve

[Master of Blades]

Wow, damn your fast.........thanks a lot. Anyone else have any info?

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
Hmmm.......I just figured that this post was kinda pointless because it isnt specific enough. I missed out all of you who do other Filipino arts such as

Arnis Defense Silat

Bakbakan Kali

Balintawak Arnis

Balitok Eskrima

Bandalan Doce Pares Eskrima

Black Eagle Arnis-Eskrima

Cabales Serrada Escrima

D'Katipunan Arnis

Dekiti Tirsia Siradas Arnis

Doblete Rapillion Arnis

Estalilla Kabaroan Eskrima

Garimot Arnis

Giron Arnis Escrima

JKD/Kali

Kalis Illustrisimo

Kalis Kalis ng Tinagalogan

Lameco Eskrima

Lapunti Arnis de Abaniko

Latosa Escrima

Lightning Scientific Arnis International ( :confused: )

Modern Arnis

Moro-moro Orabes Heneral

Pananandata Marinas

San Miguel Eskrima

Sayas-Lastra Arnis

Sayok Kali

Tulisan Caballero Taga Herada

Sorry, everyone was showing off there little bit of knowledge so I thought I would join in. But it does lead me to my next question...

"What is with the Differant spellings of Escrima/Eskrima?"

Does anyone know :confused:


MOB,

THere are also families of the Balintawak Eskrima as well as Doces Pares Eskrima.

Rich
:asian:

[arnisandyz]

Lightning Scientific - There is also a chapter on Benjamin Luna Lema in Wiley's Filipino Martial Culture.

I had a chance to workout with one of his senior students a couple years back (he was visiting a friend of my niece in Florida for Spring Break).

He showed me alot of punyo applications as well as some "dumog". Nice guy. I'm not sure is this is representative of the system or just something that he was working personally on at the time, but it was good stuff from what I remember.

Andy

[Master of Blades]

Thanks a lot for the info guys :asian:

[stacks]

Hello Rob
I tried to email you but for some reason I could not get through
I notice that you are in Comox, so am I. why don't you drop by our dojo and exchange ideas on some cross training we are
House of Kenpo Karate School in Comox, give us a call

Stacks

[moromoro]

well i know this is a little late.

but i train in Moromoro orabes haneral eskrima and
Black eagle eskrima......

[Brian Johns]

I find it funny that I don't see many Modern Arnis people listing here as a full time art.

I would have to disagree with this comment. I know ALOT of people who do Modern Arnis fulltime, including yours truly. Granted there are those who do it only once in a while (as in "let's get the sticks out every other week). However, as I said above, I know quite a few people who do Modern Arnis full time.

For the record, I do Modern Arnis and Vee JJ.

Take care,
Brian Johns
Columbus, Ohio

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by WhoopAss
I know quite a few people who do Modern Arnis full time.


Could you list them? Also could you list who started in Modern Arnis?

[Brian Johns]

Could you list them? Also could you list who started in Modern Arnis?



Truthfully I cannot answer who started in Modern Arnis and have done it full time from the beginning other than yours truly. But I can say that I know a few who have switched to Modern Arnis full time. There's Mao and me in Columbus. We don't teach anything other than Modern Arnis. There's Ken Smith. He has dropped the Isshin Ryu in favor of full time Modern Arnis in his school. There's Chuck Gauss. There's Shishir. There's Kelly Worden. There's most of the MOTTs. There's you. There's Scott VanDerZee. Maybe I went overboard when I said "quite a few." :D

Take care,
Brian

[arnisador]

Originally posted by WhoopAss
a few who have switched to Modern Arnis full time. There's Mao and me in Columbus. We don't teach anything other than Modern Arnis.

He gave up the Aikido?


There's Kelly Worden.

Doesn't he also do other arts? From his site (http://www.kellyworden.com/Pages/Home%20Page/default2.html):


Datu Worden's curriculum covers single stick Modern Arnis, close-quarter Kali, double stick Escrima, Kuntao - trapping, Combat Knife, double knife, Staff - Sibat, Defensive Tactics, Renegade Jeet Kune Do, and much, much, more.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by WhoopAss
There's Mao and me in Columbus. We don't teach anything other than Modern Arnis.

There's Ken Smith. He has dropped the Isshin Ryu in favor of full time Modern Arnis in his school.


As far as Ken Smith dropping Karate, his website doesn't seem to reflect that.
http://www.islanderskarate.com/Schedule.htm

Doesn't Mao still teach Aikido?

[Guro Harold]

I am sure he can correct me if I am wrong, but what about Datu Deiter?

[Brian Johns]

Arnisador and Renegade,

Yes, Mao does still teach aikido. However, he does not teach Aikido seminars and very rarely goes to Aikido seminars or camps. I think that it's fair to say that he spends far more time on Modern Arnis and promoting this particular art than he does with Aikido. So I really consider Mao to be a full timer with regard to Modern Arnis.

With regard to Kelly Worden, I do perceive that he's a full timer with regard to Modern Arnis. After all, he is the head of his own Modern Arnis organization (WMAC) and I think that the other arts listed help flesh out his Modern Arnis curriculum. I've seen tapes of his and it's heavily slanted toward Modern Arnis. I perceive Renegade to be a full timer with regard to Modern Arnis, even though he has been doing other arts such as Balintawak, Bando etc.

As for Ken Smith, he has indeed dropped the Isshin Ryu to do Modern Arnis full time. I visited his new school a month ago (a beautifui 7,000 square foot facility). He confirmed to me that he is now doing Modern Arnis full time. So there is no sign of Isshin Ryu in the school anymore.

Take care,
Brian:cool:

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Modern Arnis from Remy Presas, Modern Arnis 80 (my curriculum based on my teacher's instructions) and I am hoping to add Balintawak Escrima shortly.

Dan Anderson

I have now added Balintawak Escrima to what I am learning.

Yours,
Dan

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by WhoopAss
I perceive Renegade to be a full timer with regard to Modern Arnis, even though he has been doing other arts such as Balintawak, Bando etc.

Since you opened the door, I think I’ll walk through. I have experienced many martial arts through seminars, classes or in someone’s backyard. My first legitimate training was in Modern Arnis. My first instructor was Guro John Bryant. He was in the first tape series GM Remy made and I found out after talking to Demetrio Presas back in 1998 that GM Remy was grooming him to be a serious player. He ran “The Filipino Karate Academy” in Buffalo, New York. This was a full-time Modern Arnis School. It was the only commercial Modern Arnis school that I knew of at the time. Many schools that teach Modern Arnis teach something else as a primary art and offer classes in arnis for extras. Due to problems involving John and myself, I left the school as a brown belt and continued the training on my own.

After attaining my Black Belt, I started searching out the pieces that make up our art. If someone was to ask me “Why do we do this?” I wanted to be able to tell them more than “Prof said so”. I wanted to know where the move came from and theory behind it. Since the Prof was busy teaching all over the world, I set out on this journey on my own.

The first thing I did was to check out as many FMA tapes, books & seminars that I could. I was surprised to see how much I already knew based on the Prof teachings. I eventually hooked up with GM Ric “Bong” Jornales of the Arnis Sikaran system. Much of GM Jornales’ system was similar to Modern Arnis. The major differences were the amount of Sinawalis and the use of the Sibat (Filipino Staff). I had never seen GM Presas teach the Sibat, so this was very new to me. I eventually earned a probationary Black Belt through GM Jornales, but since I haven’t logged the hours of training that I feel I should be putting in to maintain that status, I no longer claim the rank.

The next art I looked into was Small Circle Ju-Jitsu. GMs Presas and Jay were best friends. The two cross-trained with each other and was very evident in the Modern Arnis. Much of our Dumog is really Small Circle Ju-Jitsu. Although I hold no rank in the system I have logged many hours with GM Jay on the seminar circuit. I feel that his concepts have helped both my hand and stick training significantly.

The whole time I was looking at Japanese-Okinawan Karate. GM Presas was a 6th Degree Black Belt in Shotokan Karate and it was very evident in his forms. I patterned my body movement for my Anyos after Isshinryu Karate. I also learned much about dojo etiquette from them and it has helped me a lot while attending and teaching seminars.

Another chapter in my journey led me to Parker’s Kenpo. I’ve been told that many Filipinos in Hawaii used Kenpo as a vehicle for teaching the FMAs. What I gained more than anything else was a method to start a more developed vocabulary. FMAs are not known for their terminology. I will always hear in my head Remy saying “You can do this and you can do that”. The examples of language that are in Kenpo were very helpful and greatly assisted in my teaching, plus I got to see a lot of similarities in material also.

One of the things that I enjoyed the most was fencing. Not the strip fencing you see in the Olympics. We’re talking medieval fencing like the three musketeers. Seeing that the Spanish occupied the Philippines for over 400 years, it would do me good to learn about a system that could have influenced the martial cultures during this time period. What I like most about this type of training is that we tried to hit each other. In FMAs we do drill upon drill upon drill, sometimes semi-sparring and in some schools, you’ll see free sparring. What’s nice about the fencing is that you warm up, practice some moves, and then we fight. When I would go back to my school, I would fence against my students while they would stick fight against me. This gave me much insight as to why we do some of the techniques that we do and why some styles use longer sticks.

The last leg of my safari brought me to Balintawak Escrima. I have had several people in the past recommend that I get involved in the system. At that time I wasn’t ready to add it to my training. I was still working on some things in my Arnis and having some problems with business associates that I had to work out. I started training with GM Buot in July of 2000 and haven’t regretted one moment of it. What many people don’t know is that Balintawak was the last art GM Presas did before forming Modern Arnis. I could see from the moment I started training that Prof was putting more and more Balintawak material into his Modern Arnis. I feel that my training with GM Ted Buot is like me going for my PHD in Modern Arnis. Now before anyone says that Remy might not approve of my training in Balintawak, remember this - Remy was one of the people that sponsored having Manong Buot take me as a student. I don’t feel that is as much a different art as opposed to being an extension of it. You would be surprised how much of Modern Arnis is based on Balintawak moves.

Now I do have exposure to arts that had nothing to do with my Modern Arnis training. Bando is one of these arts. I don’t study the art as much as I study the man teaching the art, Dr. Maung Gyi. I look to him for guidance. He has helped me a lot with my teaching. I feel that he is one of, if not the best, teacher that I have ever met. He has given me teaching formulas that I have been able to implement with great results. Seeing that his program is all about combat it helps me with categorizing my material into what‘s for attribute and what’s for combat. Sometimes people get the two confused.

For the record, I only have active rank in one system of martial arts, and that is Modern Arnis. Besides the Arnis-Sikaran, I have not been ranked in any other system. As far as my Kenpo and Bando status, I would be lucky to earn a yellow belt with all of the material that I have learned. When I practice these systems, it is at the seminars and camps that I either attend or teach. This may amount to 4 or 5 weekends out of the year. When I attend these functions, I look for their theories and strategies. I try to figure how what they do affects what I do. If there were a system that I would be qualified for rank in, it would be Balintawak. The only thing is that the system has no ranking program; you just train and try your best to get better.

One additional thing that I would like to point out is that I didn’t cross-train into the system, I DO the system. It is the first system that I learned. Most of the Modern Arnis instructors today started in a different art. This could lead into misunderstanding of a technique due to the influence of a primary system. My rank was based on what I did in Modern Arnis, not because I had a Black Belt or instructor status in a different art. Of course, we all cross-train. The difference is that most people cross-train into Modern Arnis with an other system as a base, where in my case Modern Arnis was base and I cross-trained out.

I hope I didn’t bore anyone. I feel that there was some need for clarification based on some of the posts I’ve seen in the past.

Respectfully yours,
Tim Hartman
:asian:

[Dieter]

I am sure he can correct me if I am wrong, but what about Datu Dieter?

Hi,

sorry for the late reply, but I was a for a few days out of town.

I started martial arts in 1967 with Judo and 1976 I started with Kung Fu and Karate and some other stuff, where I reached different black belt levels.

In 1978 I started with the FMA.
Since 1984 I am training and teaching only Modern Arnis. I am not claiming my other black belts any more, because since 1984 I have been concentrating on Modern Arnis only.

During my studies of Sport science in cologne (1982 - 1988) I was teaching Modern Arnis up to 7 times a week to
different groups in Cologne and Essen. In addition I was teaching up to 35 Modern Arnis weekend seminars a year.
Since the beginning of the 90ies I am teaching only twice a week my groups in Essen and Dortmund and in addition to that I am teaching about 20 Modern Arnis weekend seminars a year in Gemany and wherever I am invited.

So regarding martial arts, I am a full timer in Modern Arnis since about 20 years.
My other profession since 1989 is to produce martial arts instrucional videos and DVDs that you can find under

http://www.abanico.de


Here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3832&perpage=15&pagenumber=3) you can find a more detailled Martial Arts biography of me.

I hope this helps.



Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis

[Mao]

I started training 30 years ago in TKD, mostly because it seemed like there was nothing else on the planet at the time. This was my point system phase. In 1980 I started training in a blend of Bando/JKD which I still work concepts of. This was my tournament/full contact phase. In 1990 I started training in Aikido. This enhanced my movement light years ahead of where it was. It was no longer always about repelling the other guy. Now it was adding how to blend and accept the momentun/movement of the other guy. In late 1991 I was talking to a JKD friend and mentioned that I had seen a "stick art". He said he knew some. It took me about 2 months to pick his brain dry. I then found one of Remy's original students right here in Columbus Ohio. He hadn't trained/taught in about 10 years but I convinced him to come to my school every month for about 2 years when he said "well, you know about everything I do. You need to look up Remy." After wondering why the "H" he didn't tell me you COULD look up Remy 2 YEARS ago, I looked him up. The rest is hx.. Guro Brian is correct in that I do teach/ promote Modern Arnis way way way more than Aikido. One of the reasons is that my Aikido teacher is a 6th dan shihan. I don't have to go very far to get great aikido. In order to get great modern arnis.................well it doesn't get any better than me!! HAA! I jest. I need to travel. I believe that most of the best martial artists are those who have crossed trained because they have seen many ways of moveing so they are far less likely to get surprised in the street by some "new" way of moveing. Their exposure is far greater and more diverse. Of course in Tims case, he is far more exposed and perverse.........HAA, again I jest. I haven't read this entire thread so I don't know why it started. I read Whoops last couple of posts and thought I'd chime in.
Respectfully,
Guro Dan McConnell
IMAF, inc. Board of Directors
Modern Arnis of Ohio
Hilliard Budo Center

[The Boar Man]

My main art is really a blend of Presas Arnis and W. Hock Hochheim's material. I started with Hock in 94 learning Presas arnis (his blending of GM Remy's and GM Ernesto's systems) and he introduced me to GM Remy in 95 and GM Ernesto in 96. Since then I've continued to train with both of them (till the Professor's passing) at their camps. I still study and teach Hock's material as well.

Mark

[Brian Johns]

As for me, I started in the martial arts 20 years ago. Due to a Chinese high school friend of mine, I started in Kwan Ying Do Kung Fu, a Shaolin Kung Fu style. I stayed in that until my freshman year in college when I started studying a Vee Jiu Jitsu and Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do blend. I studied this blend for 7 years (1983 through 1990). I'm still somewhat active in this blend. As an aside, when I met with Prof Vee in 1989, he recommended that I study Arnis. But, he did not recommend any particular style of Arnis. This advice was to stick in the back of my mind for years.

I moved to Columbus, Ohio in 1990. From 1990 through 1996, I studied Tracy Kenpo. I achieved Shodan. However, I am inactive with Kenpo. I never gained any sense of satisfaction from this style as they required that you learn 40 different self defense techniques for each belt. Long on technique and short on concept. There was no sense of "connecting the systems." Because of this, I left Tracy Kenpo in December of 1996.

Along the way, I dabbled in Gracie JJ. While it's a great style, I always felt like my standup game still lacked something. In addition, I attended a few pressure point seminars to better understand the Chung Do Kwan TKD forms. I also dabbled a little bit in Aikido.

Also, along the way, I had given private lessons to a few folks in the Vee JJ/Chung Do Kwan blend. As a matter of fact, I still do for a first year law school student right here in Columbus, a referral to me from one of my Vee JJ buddies.

Then I met Guro McConnell through the internet and started in Modern Arnis in Feb of 1998. After all these years of bouncing around and experiencing disappointment, this was it. Then I started going to the Modern Arnis seminars and camps with Guro Dan. For me, Modern Arnis has helped tie together the various concepts of my martial arts background. So since 1998, I've been very heavily involved in Modern Arnis and am thankful to have met Guro Dan and Professor.

Take care,
Brian Johns

[Tom Caulfield]

Lapu Lapu Vinas Arnis. I teach it as a seperate class at my School.

[jayla]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Arins,Kali,Eskrima mean the same thing. From what I read of FMA history different Provinces or parts of the Philippines call FMA one of these three names and they would add there own name to distinguish there school from others. Example- Bakbakan Kali, Balintawak Arnis, Balitok Eskrima.

JAYLA!

[OULobo]

Missed this thread. I guess I train FMAs. I mainly train Marcial Tirada. At this point I would say that it is my primary art.

[OUMoose]

I have trained in Marcial Tirade Kali as OULobo has, but unfortuantely it is not my main art anymore.

[Flatlander]

Primarily Natural Spirit Modern Arnis, blended with Renegade JKD, Kuntao, and Ninjutsu, all from the same instructor.

[DoxN4cer]

I feel that this quote of RP is appropriate here.

"It is all de same"

[IMAA]

Well, from my understanding in the end essentially Kali, Eskrima, Arnis are all the same. However, the different family systems are very different when your speaking in behalf of attitude, technique, skill, heritage, etc..

I started back in 1984 studying a hybrid of Inosanto Kali / Pekiti Tirsia Kali with Pentjak Silat and Jun Fan Method of JKD. I studied this up to 1990. For many years continuing I followed this same path hitting up seminars w/ Guro Dan Inosanto, One or two Seminars with Leo T Gaje. Around 1999 I met a guy that teaches Inayan Eskrima, De Cuerdas and i've stayed in touch with him studying this art off and on since 99'. Exactly one month ago we have started an Escrima group training lesson at a local karate dojo.

[cannibal combat]

I have trained in various styles of Escrima and Kali. The difference to me is just the name. I found similar techniques and strategies in both. When people ask what I do, I always say "Filipino Martial Arts". To many people get caught up in the names. For me it's the skills that draw me in.

[Knarfan]

I have been training in FMA for about twelve years . My main art is Sayoc Kali . I also train in Modern Arnis (for about the last four years) & luckily for me my training partners have a strong background in Modern Arnis . I'v also been exposed to many other FMA . I try to expriance as many types of FMA as possible because they all have something special to offer . There are alot of strong similarities throughout the many systems & I think it helps to explore & I will continue to do so . I also have a half decent background in grappling & some Silat training .

[Airyu@hotmail.com]

Hello Everyone,

I would say that most people are now lumping the terminology -Kali, Escrima, Arnis- into one category and which ever style you are training in have many things in common despite what they name the system.

I have been training for just over 30 years, and about 24 - 25 in various FMA type arts. My primary focus for the last five years (FMA wise) has been Sayoc Kali, but that has not stopped me from continuing to explore and train in other fma's as well!

Frank- I am looking forward to seeing you at Sama Sama!!

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net

[kenpochad]

I have been thinking about train in kali I really like what i see .
i cant pull up any info on CDF academies here at work they use a web blocker

http://marinojones.com/ has any body heard of him

[graywolf]

All

[guromkb]

Kamusta Ka
I have trained & taught Pekititirsia kali also Silat. I now teach my blend of both Kali-Rongan ng Buhay...I call it Silat flavored Kali and Kali spiced Silat..all in all It Works and that's what truly matters.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

It's good to see so many FMA systems here on MT!
:-partyon:

[Makalakumu]

It's good to see so many FMA systems here on MT!
:-partyon:
Yeah, its really cool. It seems MT predominantly populated by FMA players and Kenpo/Kempoists. I wonder if the demographics show a trend in martial arts in this country?

BTW - I have three years experience in Arnis De Mano and three years in Inosanto Blend Kali.

[PeteNerd]

What's the difference between Arnis, Escrima and Kali? Aren't they all very similar and sometimes interchanged? Does it just depend on what your style prefers to call it? I'm training in Balintawak in Cebu now and I tried to ask my instructor. He said the arnis is more of a western term for stick fighting, escrima is what most people call stick fighting in cebu and kali is the term used more in Negros. What's the popular opinion on this question. I'm just curious.

Thanks,
Peter

[arnisador]

We're living in the Age of Kali:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga


According to most interpretations of Hindu scriptures, including the Vedas, the Kali Yuga (lit. Age of Kali , also known as Iron Age) began at the end of Krishna's bodily lifespan (approximately 5100 years ago, 3102 BCE) and will last exactly 432,000 years — placing its conclusion in the year 428,899 CE (it began with a year 0).

[Fluffy]

Escrima

[Oliver_r_gabuya]

Escrima... we at Filmocan Escrima club practise mutiple weaponry. from daggers, garote, pinuti(long one side bladed weapon), bull whip, throwing knives, spear, 2 meter long chain, hand to hand combat, grappling and combat sirado, REALISTIC ESPADA Y DAGA, abisidario(long and short range. www.filmocan.coms.ph (http://www.filmocan.coms.ph)

[GuruJim1]

I study with Tony Marcial for about 9 to almost 10 years in Gung Fu and Marcial Kali. Still remain my favorite Kali System.:asian:

[poetics5]

actually i study or will be in all three. i started at a school that was a "hey we teach everything" variety. i love kali and thats why i joined them. left and found my guro whose trained and cert'd in a buch of different arts, but he only teaches us fma. our training starts with babao arnis, as we reach the second half of this training we start to get into the fma boxing - sorry don't remember how to spell the name properly at the moment, but everyone knows what i mean. after we test our of arnis we'll move on to dose paras escrima, after we test again we move finally on to villabrille - lagusa kali. from there you train until you are able to past your test for masetro. and from there guro. we don't really have a time frame for start to finish although i've been told it takes about 3-4 years to reach masetro. also if i'm incorrect with any of this please feel free to correct me.

on a side note if personally asked our guro will instruct us in other thing, but only outside of our fma training. he doesn't want to 1. confuse anyone on what is and isn't fma, and also he doesn't what to distract from our fma learning.

-- i forgot to mention you are required to do a certain number of tourns, and a certain number of sparring matches per section and each style has 3-4 sections (training wise)

[James Kovacich]

Eskrima
Mostly Serrada, some Largo. It is the only art I do. I would love to learn Dumog and Cadena de mano, i've seen a little. One of the things I love About the FMA's is that there are so many styles and systems to learn from, it's like an endless banquet.
Resectfully The 14th Style

Inayan Eskrima?

[James Kovacich]

Cf. Mark Wiley's "Filipino Martial Culture" (Tuttle) pp. 307-44 for an interesting discussion regarding the use of the terms "kali," "eskrima," and "arnis" for various Filipino martial arts.

Wiley's argument is paraphrased in my post under the "FMA Vocabulary Needed" thread.

See also my post (Reply #21) on the "Influence of Spanish Renaissance Swordsmanship..." post on the public forum of the Dog Brothers' website: www.dogbrothers.com (http://www.dogbrothers.com)

Best,

Steve Lamade
Theres also a lot of discussion about Wiley and some of the other "masters."

[leomel pino]

eskrima, it is the name here in cebu especially in rural areas.arnis is reffered as a sport here in cebu while eskrima is more on combat.
practice largo mano eskrima which i learned from my granduncle in the municipality of tuburan, cebu. learning the art is literally painful, i mean hits are actually for real and bruises are common after sessions, he used to pushed the idea of reality and telling that it is better to have a taste of the real thing. my granduncle used to encourage me to explore and be creative, it is for the reason of not being stucked in 4 walled room and to be defeated by mere negligence. techniques are usually divided into sections: strikes, angles, grappling and movement and all are basic, the advance techniques depends on how you create and explore.

anyone from cebu here? kamusta na mga higala! palambua ug pakusga ang panaghugpong sa tanang mangolisihay sa tibu-ok kalibutan. mabuhi ka manggubatayng bisaya!

[Kwan Jang]

I've been doing the FMA's since 1980. Remy introduced modern arnis to my instructor, Ernie Reyes and convinced him that he should get in touch with his cultural roots. Since then, our schools have had training programs in Inayan (Mike Inay and Jeff Elliott) back in the day. We have for many years incorperated modern arnis for the underbelts and Serrada escrima for the black belts.

[Gurokevin]

I teach Arnis Braña. But I also am currently studying Sayoc Kali, Balintawak Arnis Escrima, amongst many others. I have trained in about 13 different systems of Filipino martial arts.

[albert28]

Which one do you actually do? Kali, Escrima or Arnis? And who actually seriously practices and not just as an add on to another class.....:rofl: :shrug: :asian:
in filmocans.we do escrima, arnis and knife handling..........Master Panto is a legacy to be known by all........http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

[albert28]

to my fellow filmocans.let us continue the spirit of brotherhood.........

[albert28]

Escrima... we at Filmocan Escrima club practise mutiple weaponry. from daggers, garote, pinuti(long one side bladed weapon), bull whip, throwing knives, spear, 2 meter long chain, hand to hand combat, grappling and combat sirado, REALISTIC ESPADA Y DAGA, abisidario(long and short range. www.filmocan.coms.ph (http://www.filmocan.coms.ph)

gud day to you sir........i've heard of your name from Master Panto........im his new member for months ago.......we still here in Cebu still continue the spirit of filmocans.......Master was just so unfortunate that he doesn't have his own gym......if only he has one, i'm pretty sure many would be ignited to join........have a gud day.... worry not coz in a few days he would join in this forum.have a gud day............:asian:http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Master Panto]

My understanding of the difference in spelling (which I take from Mark Wiley's Filipino Martial Culture ) is that both terms derive from the Spanish word esgrimar , which can mean "to skirmish."

Wiley states that "escrima" is an improper adaptation of the tem that was taken into the Tagalog language during the Spanish occupation of the Philippines; "eskrima" is the accepted romanization of the term based on the current Tagalog alphabet, which contains no letter "c."

While "eskrima" may be used more often today, neither "escrima" nor "eskrima" was originally a Tagalog term. Furthermore, the use of the term "escrima" is not incorrect insofar as it may accurately reflect the historical and cultural tradition of a specific school or style.

I suspect that this means that when Tagalog-speaking people used the term orally, it sounded exactly like "escrima" or "eskrima," but when the term was written by Spanish-speaking people they used either a "c" or a "k."

Best,

Steve Lamade

Gud day to you stephen....hey there its me Master Panto in Cebu, Philippines..its been quite long since we did'tnt get in touch with. I just like to ask have you & Oliver met again....Did he gave you a copy of CD of Demo of Mater Momoy?...How are you there guys?....Me still thesame way you've known....I'm so sorry I did't have a lot of tie to get in touch with you....Haven't it came to your schedule to visit Philippines.....I'm glad to meet you in person....Please do reply me....If you have further questions regarding San Miguel Eskrima feel free to ask me & I would be much willing to attend any of your questions....Would you like to have an original logo of San Miguel?..perhaps I could provide you....actually the logos being attached with the San Miguel are not the real ones....I could provide you everything that you may want about San Miguel... :asian:..Gud day...
Wishing for your best reply to me......

Sincerely,
Master Panto
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[lhommedieu]

I just like to ask have you & Oliver met again...

I'm driving to Pennsylvania his afternoon and will detour to see Oliver on my way.

I also have a DVD that I'll give to him and to you as well. I'm looking forward to corresponding with you about San Miguel Eskrima and will talk to you later this evening if I can get on-line.


Best wishes,

Steve Lamade

[albert28]

Escrima... we at Filmocan Escrima club practise mutiple weaponry. from daggers, garote, pinuti(long one side bladed weapon), bull whip, throwing knives, spear, 2 meter long chain, hand to hand combat, grappling and combat sirado, REALISTIC ESPADA Y DAGA, abisidario(long and short range. www.filmocan.coms.ph (http://www.filmocan.coms.ph)
Hey there gud day! I'm a student of Master Panto..we do continue the teachings of filmocans still here in Mambaling..Master want to send this message to you..have you seen his name posted here already..he was waiting for your post for him too..& Oliver I bet did you recieve the adress of Master Panto which he gave you..if you have any inquiries to him just send him private message ..thnx..& have a good day!

[Banakun]

Thanks for the help but what I'm interested in now is Lightning Scientific Arnis International cuz I wanna know what the hell that is.....:confused:

Here's a primer on LSAI:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U887uykZTUA&feature=user
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdrRRtDwU3c&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBhErlYsbos&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS-ihP8_jy0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arQM8MuUY1U&feature=user
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3NG31tSrH8&feature=related

BTW, there is no difference between the 3 (Arnis, Escrima, Kali). As a matter of fact, prior to some 20 years ago, I don't even think "kali" existed in the sense that it was generally used to describe FMA with the exception of a very vague mention in a book written in the 1950's (by Mirafuente/Yambao). The general term was either Escrima or Arnis. Of course nowadays, Kali is just another name used to describe FMA (among others, escrima and arnis included). It's all same-same... :shrug:

[arnisador]

Great links! Thanks!

[kailat]

< KALI > perse, however I percieve all of them to be the same art in the larger scheme of it all. I've studied in the styles of:

Inosanto Blend Kali / JKD
Serrada Eskrima
Pekiti Tirsia Kali
Doce Pares Eskrima
Sayoc Kali
Arnis De Mano
Sikal

So I consider myself a Kali player.. But its all the same to me!!!

[hapkenkido]

i do modern arnis with bob quinn, but we have started to do some classical arnis too.

[Topeng]

Alll those terms mean the same to me.

Primary art: BaHad Zu'Bu Kalis Ilustrisimo
Its also referred to as BaHad Zu'bu Eskrima.

The terminology I have seen people sometimes get confused with is thinking Panantukan, Pananjakman, or Dumog are the same as Eskrima, Kali. Though they are all part of FMA, those are each their own.

[kalimistress]

I am a Kali practitioner. I am currently a Gold belt/sash but have decided that testing does not make me a better martial artist and probably will not test again. I am wanting to get into the Inosanto instructor program.

[Franko808]

Escrima......

[DaughteroftheArts]

Escrima, six days a week...

[kuntawguro]

This may raise some eyebrows. I do Bugtongan/ Kaliluhon this is a form of Kali sword and shield. The style is literally trickery, puzzle, and treachery. I have been ranked in Modern Arnis and PTK but I teach what I know best.

My training started in 1968 in TKD but I soon switched to FMA when I saw it actually work.

[bobquinn]

More power to you. Teach what you have been taught and persue what you don't know. Keep the faith.

Bob Quinn

[Phil Mar Nadela]

Kali-Arnis de Mano and Arnis de Abanico. I'm also a student under Paclibar Bicol Arnis ; I'm not sure but i think its classical Arnis.

[bobquinn]

Awesome, I know you are having fun with it.

B Quinn

[Wabushmines]

Im practitioner in terms of Club Stick, a form of stick which is composed of different various style of stick art. In terms of " Club Stick" Doce Pares Cali Arnis Eskrima. which means, all kind of stick art. Single stick, Double stick, Short Stick, Medium Stick, Long stick nor Pole Stick and Blades Arts.