Titles

[MJS]

How much value do you place on the various titles in the arts? I ask this, because on another forum, I was reading a thread by someone who stated that he was just about ready to test a student of his for 5th degree black. He goes on to say that he's been making a living teaching since 1992, and that bringing someone to this rank shows that he has spent alot of time and commitment with this student. His question was whether or not he should now consider himself a Grandmaster.

Now, I'm not saying that titles should not be used, but IMO, I feel that there should be more behind that title than simply promoting someone to 5th.

Thoughts?

[terryl965]

I agree with you

[Rook]

Well, doesn't whatever art he belong to have a standard set of titles? Ussually a title is awarded to you by people from your organization or from you art. If you are an art founder, titles are sometimes given by MA organizations but there is a fine line between that and sokeship councils that is turning greyer by the day. There really isn't a time that I can think of when a person should appoint his or herself to a new title.

[Carol]

Well, doesn't whatever art he belong to have a standard set of titles? Ussually a title is awarded to you by people from your organization or from you art. If you are an art founder, titles are sometimes given by MA organizations but there is a fine line between that and sokeship councils that is turning greyer by the day. There really isn't a time that I can think of when a person should appoint his or herself to a new title.

What Rook said.

I can't think of any title that should be appointed.

[Xue Sheng]

I too agree

But to me titles don't mean much I have seen some pretty amazing martial artists most going by their first name. It is how you train and who you are that matters. A title means nothing, it a label that is all.

And I am VERY aware this is regional, but every time I hear someone say they are a grand master I think of what I was told about Beijing. If they call someone a grand master there.... they are being very sarcastic.

[exile]

I agree with you

Ditto. I've always thought that if the term `Grandmaster' means anything at all, it identifies someone who's made a fundamental and sustained contribution to their art—who has demonstrably advanced it by conspicuous excellence in some core aspect of it over many, many years. Emphasis on many.

[Kacey]

Titles should be earned - not taken.

I have no problems with organizations that require instructors to promote students to a certain rank before some they themselves can be promoted, and for the reasons MJS quoted - having an instructor who spends the time and effort to bring a student to a certain level shows dedication and commitment. Nonetheless, I don't feel it is the instructor/student's place to take a title based solely on this one attainment.

MJS, do you know if this person you mention has an instructor - because that is the person who should be bestowing titles (as an expression of rank).

[MJS]

Well, doesn't whatever art he belong to have a standard set of titles?

Yes.



Ussually a title is awarded to you by people from your organization or from you art.

Agreed.



If you are an art founder, titles are sometimes given by MA organizations but there is a fine line between that and sokeship councils that is turning greyer by the day.

He is not the founder of the art.


There really isn't a time that I can think of when a person should appoint his or herself to a new title.

Agreed.

[Drac]

Ditto. I've always thought that if the term `Grandmaster' means anything at all, it identifies someone who's made a fundamental and sustained contribution to their art—who has demonstrably advanced it by conspicuous excellence in some core aspect of it over many, many years. Emphasis on many.

I agree with exhile..The handful of Grandmasters that I have had the privledge to meet and train with personify the above description...

[MJS]

MJS, do you know if this person you mention has an instructor - because that is the person who should be bestowing titles (as an expression of rank).

AKAIK, yes, this person is affiliated with an organization, hense the reason why I was so curious as to why someone would want to promote themselves, rather than going thru their inst.

Mike

[Drac]

I was so curious as to why someone would want to promote themselves, rather than going thru their inst

It is a good question...

[Infinite]

Can I :deadhorse titles are earned, bestowed, and gained.

Not earned,claimed,gained or worse claimed,gained

[kroh]

Have you ever noticed how many grand masters there are? Even now we have great grand masters, supreme great grand masters...I have even heard some one refer to himself as...Lord.

OK...Since we can't really quantify what makes a master because each of the systems has their own criteria, what's the point? I have seen some of these great grand masters and some of the martial arts they profess. Either I wasn't privy to the hidden meaning of what they were doing or they couldn't fight thier way out of a wet paper bag. I have also seen others (like Xue Sheng said) who are the very epitome of what a master of should be and yet refuse to be refered to by title.

I think part of the problem is that in America, we all want to feel special. I am sure there are many who say," That group has a grand master...maybe we should have one too." Suddenly the title looses much of its meaning.

Titles are fine as long as some one using them understands what the language behind them means. If you call some one Grand Master... That is redundant to a point but possible if you are refering to the dictionary defintion of master as head of household. The master heads a small group and the Grand master controls all of them. Do we really need a Supreme Great Grand Master. In my opinion it sounds like a supersized portion at a fast food restaraunt.

The other thing that I often wonder about is why a person would refer to themselves by a title in another language when they don't speak it. I have noticed that a lot of the Americanized Kempo systems have moved from calling their instructors by an Asian word to using the polite monicre of Mr. or Ms. (mrs. etc). I think that is a great step to making the system they study truely their own. Some even use the title of Professor or Dr. (although some of these still wierd me out a bit).

Titles should have a definate purpose. They should define clear cut seperations in an organization and should be exactly as designed... a descriptor to tell who is who. When they transcend that and start stroking the ego instead...

Better that I not finish that one...

Regards,
Walt

[exile]

Titles are fine as long as some one using them understands what the language behind them means. If you call some one Grand Master... That is redundant to a point but possible if you are refering to the dictionary defintion of master as head of household. The master heads a small group and the Grand master controls all of them. Do we really need a Supreme Great Grand Master. In my opinion it sounds like a supersized portion at a fast food restaraunt.

...Titles should have a definate purpose. They should define clear cut seperations in an organization and should be exactly as designed... a descriptor to tell who is who.

I think I've always supposed that the use of the titles `Master' and `Grandmaster' were patterned after the use of these titles in chess, where they've been part of the ranking since Czar Nicholas II first awarded it to a group of top tournament finishers in 1914. The FIDE which regulates the international chess world has strict competition criteria for both titles, and in addition, there appears to be a `Super Grandmaster' title, again awarded on a strictly quantitative basis depending on international FIDE tournament performance, with the number of these Super GMs never having exceeded double digits since it was instituted. Each of these titles identifies the holder's competence as a chessplayer in a very specific way that can be immediately documented by consulting his or her FIDE numerical rating. Anyone who claimed any of these titles without the numbers to back it up would be kicked out of the chess world so fast they'd be travelling backwards in time.

Big difference between us and them, eh?

[kroh]

Anyone who claimed any of these titles without the numbers to back it up would be kicked out of the chess world so fast they'd be travelling backwards in time.

And this is a good example of where the titles have a purpose. The titles attest to the persons skill BACKED UP BY their past achievements, and not just becuase they opened up their own chess club and they need something flashy to put on the door to draw in students.

Great example,
Regards,
Walt

[exile]

And this is a good example of where the titles have a purpose. The titles attest to the persons skill BACKED UP BY their past achievements, and not just becuase they opened up their own chess club and they need something flashy to put on the door to draw in students.


Perfect analogy, Walt!

I suppose the problem is that if it's a competitive contest you're getting rank in, the parameter you use for ranking is there for all to see: success in sanctioned contests. With the MAs, there's just no way you can quantify competence in a parallel fashion. Competition is only a part, and for many practitioners (and styles) a minor part, of the story. So we wind up with all this title-mongering...

[jks9199]

How much value do you place on the various titles in the arts? I ask this, because on another forum, I was reading a thread by someone who stated that he was just about ready to test a student of his for 5th degree black. He goes on to say that he's been making a living teaching since 1992, and that bringing someone to this rank shows that he has spent alot of time and commitment with this student. His question was whether or not he should now consider himself a Grandmaster.

Now, I'm not saying that titles should not be used, but IMO, I feel that there should be more behind that title than simply promoting someone to 5th.

Thoughts?

I don't think that Grandmaster is a title you take for yourself.

Beyond that -- I'm given to understand that anyone calling themself "sensei" doesn't understand the word in Japanese. I don't know if that's true or not...

I generally don't call myself "master" or anything else, nor do I require students to address me by anything other than "Mister" or my name.

But a lot of this is also dependent on the practices within a style. Some styles call practioners at certain levels "professor" or "doctor"; others use their own names, and still others just don't bother with it.

[Iron Leopard]

In my style and some others I've been associated with 5th degree is the master level. I don't know how I feel about this other than ...I feel I will never be ready for this level and I also feel that nobody should promote themselves to any rank or title.

[wade]

I have 2 student that I have promoted to KKW 5th Dan, they call me master (small letters) last name. I call them by their first names. To everyone else I go by my ultra secret magical hidden name, wade. It's easier to remember...

[Bigshadow]

In many martial arts certain titles are associated with certain ranks.

However, I like the idea of some titles being given by one's peers because they respect their level of skill and rank versus being demanded or ordered by the person just to be formal and sound cool, especially when referring to themselves. You will notice that the most humble masters rarely ever refer to themselves as master.

[Drac]

To everyone else I go by my ultra secret magical hidden name, wade. It's easier to remember...

QUICK on to the internet with this secret hidden knowledge...LOL

[Drac]

I read an interview with Grandmaster John Pellegrini of the Combat Hapkido system once where he stated that a lot of these advancements in rank occure at 75,000 feet when they are flying over the country of their disciplines orgin...

[kroh]

I read an interview with Grandmaster John Pellegrini of the Combat Hapkido system once where he stated that a lot of these advancements in rank occure at 75,000 feet when they are flying over the country of their disciplines orgin...


Yep...that is just too cool for school...
Regards,
Walt

[Grenadier]

Titles are tools. They can be used for good, or for ill, and are not inherently good or evil in and of themselves.

They are also things that should be earned, and not simply handed to someone once they hit a certain rank. Demonstrating that someone is worthy of such a title should require more than just the rank, since most titles are based on someone's abilities as a teacher, in general.

Just because someone has become a shodan in a system, does not automatically make him a sensei. Just because someone becomes a godan in a system, does not automatically make him a shihan / renshi, and so forth.

What does get me rather irritated, is when people with no teaching experience are automatically handed titles such as sensei and shihan. If anything, when someone is granted such a title, it's more about what they give back to the system, than what they have taken from it.

[kroh]

What does get me rather irritated, is when people with no teaching experience are automatically handed titles such as sensei and shihan. If anything, when someone is granted such a title, it's more about what they give back to the system, than what they have taken from it.

It is interesting that titles like this comming from Japanese roots have lost touch with how they were gained in Japan. For example...there were usually strict requirements in that country requiring teachers be certified and fullfill stringent requirements even before being considered for said certification. This of course refers to the gendai budo (modern martial arts created during the turn of the 20th century) and not to the koryu (old schools who had their own strict requriements). I like your observation that such titles, as are being discussed here, are more about what is being given back by the individual. I believe that "back in the day" many of the judo upper tier were given high Step Grades (the dan ranks) due to their service to the sport.

National geographic did a great show on kendo not too long ago (2004) where they were talking about how many the 7th degree experts of that sport have to take a massive test to get the coveted 8th degree. Some have been in the sport for decades and many of them are well over 50 (with one participant on the last step to eighty). Many who take the challenge fail and have to sit at the 7th degree untill the next test. The test is considered harder than the Japanese bar exam (according to the show). I thought it was a great display of fortitude for these 7th degree experts to humble themselves in front of a board and have to compete for the right to earn this coveted title ( it is my understanding based on the documentary that much like some of the other Japanese combat sports, the 9th and 10th step grade are honorary ranks that are bestowed for service and sacrifice). I tried going onto Kendo world to find the video but the link seems to be outdated.

Great Post Grenadier...
Regards,
Walt

[Brandon Fisher]

I know of 6th Dan's who have trained people up to 5th Dan and their title is Renshi. I know 7th Dan's who of trained people to 6th Dan level and their Title is Kyoshi. Promoting one person to 5th dan does not qualify one for grandmasters level. Are they are 8th, 9th or 10th dan that want to claim to be a grandmaster? If this person wants grandmaster status there are plenty of organizations that will sell him the paperwork. But doesn't mean its worth anything.

[IcemanSK]

How much value do you place on the various titles in the arts? I ask this, because on another forum, I was reading a thread by someone who stated that he was just about ready to test a student of his for 5th degree black. He goes on to say that he's been making a living teaching since 1992, and that bringing someone to this rank shows that he has spent alot of time and commitment with this student. His question was whether or not he should now consider himself a Grandmaster.

Now, I'm not saying that titles should not be used, but IMO, I feel that there should be more behind that title than simply promoting someone to 5th.

Thoughts?

My question for the person who asks that question to others about themself is, "why are you asking yourself that question? That is a question to ask your instructor." If someone has been train long enough to test someone to 5th Dan, I'd imagine that question would have been asked & answered already. I mean no disrepect in this. I'm amazed at how people can train for a long time & still not have clear direction on these types of questions. It's the fault of instructors who do not give clear direction. What is the standard in one's MA system?

[IcemanSK]

I read an interview with Grandmaster John Pellegrini of the Combat Hapkido system once where he stated that a lot of these advancements in rank occure at 75,000 feet when they are flying over the country of their disciplines orgin...

My instructor refers to that as "the magic plane". One leaves their destination one rank & lands as another rank. Man! Where do I get a ticket for that flight?!

The problem is, when ya go thru the metal detectors before that flight, you need to leave your integrity & self-respect there. Ya can't take those with you.

[Touch Of Death]

The guy in in a unique situation where he is probably the first and last word of Kenpo in his area. He will be that area's grandmaster. I understand American's thinking he should hook up with an already existing American Grandmaster and just be happy, but its a business, and as far as Kenpo goes in south Africa there is no need to affilate yourself with the United States. I think his mistake is asking the opinion of those Americans.
Sean

[CTKempo Todd]

If I'm lucky enough to be around in another 40 years and revered as a martial artist with 57 years of experience and lots of stripes on my belt..

Do you know what I want to be called???......Todd..
You know why..Thats my name ;-)

These titles are all getting pretty silly aren't they?

[Drac]

If I'm lucky enough to be around in another 40 years and revered as a martial artist with 57 years of experience and lots of stripes on my belt..

Do you know what I want to be called???......Todd..
You know why..Thats my name ;-)

Father Greek is the same way....

[kroh]

If I'm lucky enough to be around in another 40 years and revered as a martial artist with 57 years of experience and lots of stripes on my belt..

Do you know what I want to be called???......Todd..
You know why..Thats my name ;-)

These titles are all getting pretty silly aren't they?


:bow:

Regards,
Walt

[James Kovacich]

Having a title DOES NOT have to equate being called it by your students. Just like the ranking system with belts as a measurement tool. There are many schools who issue rank/belts but don't even where a gi.

[Xue Sheng]

If I'm lucky enough to be around in another 40 years and revered as a martial artist with 57 years of experience and lots of stripes on my belt..

Do you know what I want to be called???......Todd..
You know why..Thats my name ;-)

These titles are all getting pretty silly aren't they?

Actually if I'm around another 40 years I will be happy if I can hear them call me anything.

[IcemanSK]

Actually if I'm around another 40 years I will be happy if I can hear them call me anything.

:lfao: :lfao:

[Drac]

:lfao: :lfao:

Yep....

[Last Fearner]

How much value do you place on the various titles in the arts?
I'm going to respond with one of my philosophical answers:
How much value do I place on titles in the Martial Art? All and none.

I say "all" because there is a meaning and a purpose for these titles that go beyond the misguided egos of individuals. A purpose which is more for the student, than the one carrying the title. As a teacher (another simple title), I am always aware that students can have bigger problems with ego, being arrogant, and not willing to respect anyone, regardless of how humble the teacher is. The use of a title begins to expose this flaw in a student who has trouble humbling themselves by addressing their teacher in such a way. The title is not for my benefit, but to educate students that if you have a problem with a title, then the problem is yours.

I also say that the value of titles is "none" because it is truly not the title that has value, but what the title represents. Thus, I agree with those who say that the title should be earned, it should be bestowed by your seniors, and it should represent more of what you give to teaching, than what you have accomplished.


Just because someone has become a shodan in a system, does not automatically make him a sensei. Just because someone becomes a godan in a system, does not automatically make him a shihan / renshi, and so forth.

What does get me rather irritated, is when people with no teaching experience are automatically handed titles such as sensei and shihan. If anything, when someone is granted such a title, it's more about what they give back to the system, than what they have taken from it.
I agree with Grenadier's statement. Your rank is acknowledgment of your skills and past accomplishments. Titles partially represent what you have done to get where you are, but mostly what you are currently doing to contribute to the Art.


I feel that there should be more behind that title than simply promoting someone to 5th.
I agree! While criteria will vary with each organization, I would submit that a Black Belt is not automatically a teacher, and a teacher is not automatically a Master. A teacher who runs their own school which contains several certified instructors would qualify as a Master Instructor. One who is over the direction of several schools, and the Master instructors who run those schools, would qualify as a Grandmaster, but time, many years of teaching as a Master, and the title being bestowed by your senior is what lends the most credibility.


Well, doesn't whatever art he belong to have a standard set of titles? Ussually a title is awarded to you by people from your organization or from you art. ... There really isn't a time that I can think of when a person should appoint his or herself to a new title.
Exactly! Well said


`Grandmaster'... identifies someone who's made a fundamental and sustained contribution to their art—who has demonstrably advanced it by conspicuous excellence in some core aspect of it over many, many years. Emphasis on many.
I agree!


Titles should be earned - not taken.
Absolutely!


If someone has been train long enough to test someone to 5th Dan, I'd imagine that question would have been asked & answered already. I mean no disrepect in this. I'm amazed at how people can train for a long time & still not have clear direction on these types of questions. It's the fault of instructors who do not give clear direction.
I couldn't have said it better myself, Iceman!


These titles are all getting pretty silly aren't they?
Titles aren't getting silly - - it's the people who are misusing them that are being silly.


Actually if I'm around another 40 years I will be happy if I can hear them call me anything.
I'm 46 years old. I'll just be happy if I'm around in another 40 years!

CM D.J. Eisenhart

[jdinca]

How much value do you place on the various titles in the arts? I ask this, because on another forum, I was reading a thread by someone who stated that he was just about ready to test a student of his for 5th degree black. He goes on to say that he's been making a living teaching since 1992, and that bringing someone to this rank shows that he has spent alot of time and commitment with this student. His question was whether or not he should now consider himself a Grandmaster.

Now, I'm not saying that titles should not be used, but IMO, I feel that there should be more behind that title than simply promoting someone to 5th.

Thoughts?

I agree with you. Titles like "Master" and "Grand Master" should not be self imposed. It dilutes the meaning of the titles and gives creedence to those who scoff at them.

[kroh]

If I am a scoffer...

...Does that make me a bad person?

It just strikes me as strange as technically, words like "master," do not appear in other groupings or gatherings other than martial arts circles. Its usage is antiquated, even in most Asian settings. You can have a Master Carpenter or Electrician or even Story-teller, as this speaks to the Level of Skill rather than being...MSTER of the Plantation and ALL they Survey (which is how it is used a lot...not by all... But alot IMO). But you don't see Master Bricklayers walking up to people and signing their name : "Master Stoney Jackson."

I guess my biggest problem with the whole mess is that it has been so abused and perverted over the years that I have a problem with it (almost a knee-jerk reaction). But can you blame me? When I was dragged to a Martial Arts Tournament and forced to watch obesely fat middle aged want-to-be jedi's swinging swords around like they were on the pep squad and then have to refer to said rocket surgeons as Master, it took everything I had not to loose my lunch on their fancy battery operated hakamas.

I am no martial arts superguy mself, but when I meet people who are true masters of their arts, I am usually very impressed. No matter what they call themselves. When I see people acting like this :

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n18/kroh01/27.jpg

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n18/kroh01/27.jpg%5B/IMG%5DIn real life... I want to run and burn all my martial arts uniforms so I can't be associated with that drivel. But as I said earlier, technically the problem is with how I perceive the practice and not the practice itself.

Regards,
Walt

[German Coach]

How much value do you place on the various titles in the arts? I ask this, because on another forum, I was reading a thread by someone who stated that he was just about ready to test a student of his for 5th degree black. He goes on to say that he's been making a living teaching since 1992, and that bringing someone to this rank shows that he has spent alot of time and commitment with this student. His question was whether or not he should now consider himself a Grandmaster.

Now, I'm not saying that titles should not be used, but IMO, I feel that there should be more behind that title than simply promoting someone to 5th.

Thoughts?

A title is necessary if you want to become a teacher / Sensei especially if you want to living from the Martial Arts.

But the title say nothing about your skills (about 20 years ago I as a 2nd Dan Taekwon-Do challenged a amateur boxer with NO titels for a full contact fight and beat me in 30 seconds....)

[Xue Sheng]

A title is necessary if you want to become a teacher / Sensei especially if you want to living from the Martial Arts

Nope


But the title say nothing about your skills (about 20 years ago I as a 2nd Dan Taekwon-Do challenged a amateur boxer with NO titels for a full contact fight and beat me in 30 seconds....)

A title is just that a title and it does not necessarily mean a thing.


There is nothing wrong with earned titles, emphasis on EARNED. Do the time do the training and if someone calls you Grand Master, Master, Sifu Sensei, etc. that is ok with me.

What is not ok are those that insist upon it whether a governing body has given them the title or not. Or those that are angered that a student calls them teacher or Mr. or master and corrects said student with "That's GRAND MASTER" or if one day a guy shows up and say I have been training my style for 10, 20, 30 years or more so now I'm a grand master. These are the titles I have a problem with.

Personally when I taught and if I teach again my students call me by my first name. All of my CMA sifus have been called by there first name and my Yang Tai Chi Sifu has been doing Yang Tai Chi and only yang Tai chi for somewhere around 45 to 50 years and all his students call him by his first name, except for a few of us Traditionalist types that call him Sifu. And he refers to his teacher as Sifu and his teacher's teacher as Sifu and as far as my style goes if anyone was going to be called Grand master it would be his Sifu (Tung Ying Chieh) and his Sifu’s Sifu who was Yang Chengfu. The only title I have ever heard, other than Sifu applied to Yang Chengfu was Old master by one of his few living students.

But with that said if someone where to call Chengfu Grand master I have no problem with it. If the guy down the street with 5 years in Tai chi who knows Yang 24, 48 form and a wu form and has been to a couple of Chen family seminars insists upon it I have a REAL problem with that.

But think of all the real long time Martial Artist out there, how many actually call themselve Grand Master.


EDIT: This thought just hit me. It would seem that if one insists that they be called Grand master that they feel they know all there is to know about their martial art and therefore they have nothing left to learn. To me this is actually rather a sad thought.

[Kacey]

A title is necessary if you want to become a teacher / Sensei especially if you want to living from the Martial Arts.
Why? I've been teaching for 15 years, and my only title is "sahbum". My students call me Ms. or ma'am, and I call them Mr. or Ms., sir or ma'am, as appropriate. In all that time, no one has asked to see my certificates, asked if I have a title, etc. - just watched me teach, either from in or out of the class. No, I don't make a living from it - but I do know people who do, who have no title other than "instructor" in the language of their style; some of them don't even use that.


But the title say nothing about your skills (about 20 years ago I as a 2nd Dan Taekwon-Do challenged a amateur boxer with NO titels for a full contact fight and beat me in 30 seconds....)
Certainly can't argue with that... although it would seem to support my question about why one needs a title to teach - if a title says nothing about one's abilities, then why does one need it to teach? I will (and do) learn from anyone who demonstrates competence at a skill I want to learn - titles, or lack thereof, notwithstanding.

[German Coach]

Why? I've been teaching for 15 years, and my only title is "sahbum". My students call me Ms. or ma'am, and I call them Mr. or Ms., sir or ma'am, as appropriate. In all that time, no one has asked to see my certificates, asked if I have a title, etc. - just watched me teach, either from in or out of the class. No, I don't make a living from it - but I do know people who do, who have no title other than "instructor" in the language of their style; some of them don't even use that.


Certainly can't argue with that... although it would seem to support my question about why one needs a title to teach - if a title says nothing about one's abilities, then why does one need it to teach? I will (and do) learn from anyone who demonstrates competence at a skill I want to learn - titles, or lack thereof, notwithstanding.

I meant the legal side and I can only speak for Germany. If you don´t have a state recognized certificate that allows you to teach, you can have serious problems if for example a student get hurt. For example my different titels from all over the world and different associations didn´t count. I had to to a be tested by an authority in order to teach.

And of course my students call me by my first name :)

[Kacey]

I meant the legal side and I can only speak for Germany. If you don´t have a state recognized certificate that allows you to teach, you can have serious problems if for example a student get hurt. For example my different titels from all over the world and different associations didn´t count. I had to to a be tested by an authority in order to teach.
This was in no way evident in your previous post. There is, I think, a significant legal difference between any certification required by the government and any certification and/or titles conferred by and/or required by your MA organization(s). This thread is, I believe, referring to the latter.


And of course my students call me by my first name :)
I prefer to use patronymics in class because it helps with the mindset of setting class time apart from the rest of the day, which, in my opinion, helps people to concentrate. My students call me by my first name outside of class - except for those who refuse, even when asked to do so; the reasons they have given me range from demonstrating respect (adults and kids) to relative age, as half of my students are kids, and either their parents do not allow them to call adults by their first name, or they are not comfortable doing so. If you prefer it otherwise, that's your choice; whatever works for you. There is no "of course" about it in my opinion - there is only what works for the instructor and his/her students.

[jdinca]

If I am a scoffer...

...Does that make me a bad person?

It just strikes me as strange as technically, words like "master," do not appear in other groupings or gatherings other than martial arts circles. Its usage is antiquated, even in most Asian settings. You can have a Master Carpenter or Electrician or even Story-teller, as this speaks to the Level of Skill rather than being...MSTER of the Plantation and ALL they Survey (which is how it is used a lot...not by all... But alot IMO). But you don't see Master Bricklayers walking up to people and signing their name : "Master Stoney Jackson."

I guess my biggest problem with the whole mess is that it has been so abused and perverted over the years that I have a problem with it (almost a knee-jerk reaction). But can you blame me? When I was dragged to a Martial Arts Tournament and forced to watch obesely fat middle aged want-to-be jedi's swinging swords around like they were on the pep squad and then have to refer to said rocket surgeons as Master, it took everything I had not to loose my lunch on their fancy battery operated hakamas.

I am no martial arts superguy mself, but when I meet people who are true masters of their arts, I am usually very impressed. No matter what they call themselves. When I see people acting like this :

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n18/kroh01/27.jpg

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n18/kroh01/27.jpg%5B/IMG%5DIn real life... I want to run and burn all my martial arts uniforms so I can't be associated with that drivel. But as I said earlier, technically the problem is with how I perceive the practice and not the practice itself.

Regards,
Walt

Better a scoffer than a scoffee! I agree with everything you have to say.

[MJS]

And this is a good example of where the titles have a purpose. The titles attest to the persons skill BACKED UP BY their past achievements, and not just becuase they opened up their own chess club and they need something flashy to put on the door to draw in students.

Great example,
Regards,
Walt

Exactly! I'm more impressed with what the person can do, their skill, and what positive things they've done for the art, rather than what title they're holding.

[MJS]

The guy in in a unique situation where he is probably the first and last word of Kenpo in his area. He will be that area's grandmaster. I understand American's thinking he should hook up with an already existing American Grandmaster and just be happy, but its a business, and as far as Kenpo goes in south Africa there is no need to affilate yourself with the United States. I think his mistake is asking the opinion of those Americans.
Sean

Ya know, reading some of the posts that he's been making, I have to wonder what his intentions are. In any case, I still feel that what should be first and foremost, is what he can offer to that area, not concerning himself with the GM title.

Just my thoughts.

Mike

[MJS]

A title is necessary if you want to become a teacher / Sensei especially if you want to living from the Martial Arts.

But the title say nothing about your skills (about 20 years ago I as a 2nd Dan Taekwon-Do challenged a amateur boxer with NO titels for a full contact fight and beat me in 30 seconds....)

True. I see nothing wrong with Mr., Sir, Sifu, Sensei. However, the person in question is talking about giving himself the title of GM. I think there is quite a big difference between that title and the others I listed.

Mike

[German Coach]

This was in no way evident in your previous post. There is, I think, a significant legal difference between any certification required by the government and any certification and/or titles conferred by and/or required by your MA organization(s). This thread is, I believe, referring to the latter.


I prefer to use patronymics in class because it helps with the mindset of setting class time apart from the rest of the day, which, in my opinion, helps people to concentrate. My students call me by my first name outside of class - except for those who refuse, even when asked to do so; the reasons they have given me range from demonstrating respect (adults and kids) to relative age, as half of my students are kids, and either their parents do not allow them to call adults by their first name, or they are not comfortable doing so. If you prefer it otherwise, that's your choice; whatever works for you. There is no "of course" about it in my opinion - there is only what works for the instructor and his/her students.

Do you think my students should call me abbot (of the dojo), just because I am certified by the Shaolin Monastery in China ?

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5439/shaolin1995be2.gif

[Drac]

What a GREAT picture Coach...

[German Coach]

What a GREAT picture Coach...

Thanks, but the time when the photo was shot I was already infected with the legionnaire disease. They had no antibiotics, but the chinese doctor saved my life with accupuncture. Here are mor photos:

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/4719/china04xz6.jpg

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1871/china03pb1.jpg

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9703/china02nk6.jpg

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7405/hanspeterpk4.jpg

[German Coach]

side Kick in the forbidden city

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7405/hanspeterpk4.jpg

[German Coach]

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7405/hanspeterpk4.jpg

[German Coach]

hm..........perhaps that pic works

<img src="http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7405/hanspeterpk4.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" />

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7405/hanspeterpk4.th.jpg (http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hanspeterpk4.jpg)

[Kacey]

Do you think my students should call me abbot (of the dojo), just because I am certified by the Shaolin Monastery in China?
As I said, your students can address you however you feel is appropriate. I find it more appropriate to use patronymics and honorifics (sir/ma'am) in class - both from and toward my students. Unlike many other seniors I have seen, however, my students are all encouraged to call me by my first name outside of class, as my primary reason for the use of patronymics has to do with setting the class time apart from the rest of the day. Some of them call me by first name outside of class, some of them don't; some of them avoid the use of names entirely outside of class to avoid confusion within class, some are kids whose parents won't allow them to call adults by first name regardless of what the adult says (go, parents who teach their kids respect!). Once we leave class, I don't really care what they use, as long as it's reasonably polite - or at least appropriate to the setting we're in, as some of us often go out to eat after class.

[Drac]

Great photos Coach and great memories for you..

[Kreth]

Great photos Coach and great memories for you..
Agreed, but they have nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think titles are fine and if you wish to be called something or call someone by a title that is absolutely okay. As for myself personally I have my students call me Brian as that is my name. When I do teach my kid's they call me sir. (as that is appropriate in the Training Hall) I have no problem calling another instructor by their title if that is what they want.

Having said all of that what is important is not the title but one's ability and if you are a teacher then one's ability to teach as well!

[Brian R. VanCise]

By the way Coach I love the pictures as well! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Drac]

Agreed, but they have nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Alas tis true...

[Kacey]

Having said all of that what is important is not the title but one's ability and if you are a teacher then one's ability to teach as well!
And that is, I think, the factor that often gets lost in such discussions.

[jks9199]

A title is necessary if you want to become a teacher / Sensei especially if you want to living from the Martial Arts.
Nope


I agree... You only need students to be a teacher.

To be a good teacher, you need technical knowledge, patience, and a certain level of confidence.

To be a great teacher, you need technical excellence, even more patience, humility, and insight into your students and your art.

[jks9199]

I meant the legal side and I can only speak for Germany. If you don´t have a state recognized certificate that allows you to teach, you can have serious problems if for example a student get hurt. For example my different titels from all over the world and different associations didn´t count. I had to to a be tested by an authority in order to teach.

And of course my students call me by my first name :)
Would you need any of that to teach someone privately/covertly in your basement? You might need them to teach publicly and to enjoy the legal protections that go with the teaching certification, but you don't need it to be able to teach someone.

In fact, I've learned more from people who didn't even know they were teaching me than they'd believe!

[Drac]

In fact, I've learned more from people who didn't even know they were teaching me than they'd believe!

Amen brother..Short mini lesson that stay with you a long time..

[German Coach]

You might need them to teach publicly and to enjoy the legal protections that go with the teaching certification, but you don't need it to be able to teach someone.

In fact, I've learned more from people who didn't even know they were teaching me than they'd believe!

I agree - have the same experience.