Black Belts??

[Christina05]

Okay so I was in another forum and someone brought up kids recieveing black belts and how kids dont deserve them. I thought it would be interesting to see what everyone thought. And at what age do you think is to young to recieve a black belt?

[Mei Hua]

Anyone under 18 doesn't deserve one.

[Kacey]

There's a good discussion of this here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42905&highlight=year+black+belts).

While I have a problem with children too young to walk across the parking lot without holding an adult's hand receiving black belts, I am not willing to draw an arbitrary line in the sand and say "no one below age X can be a black belt". I think there is a level of maturity necessary before one confers that rank on anyone - and I have met children who have that level of maturity, and adults who do not. A good instructor is able to determine who is, and is not, ready for a black belt - mentally as well as physically.

[dragonswordkata]

I believe it really depends on the childs dedication and maturity. Just like an adult testing for 1st dan. If an instructor feels the child is ready in all facets for the rank, any rank,then they should be tested. The child should be held to the same high standards as an adult. Obviously there are some emotional/physical differences, but with a wise and dedicated sensi teaching the values along the path, you should have a true, abet young, martial artist and human being.

[Mariachi Joe]

I agree with Kacey, the instructor should know if the kid is ready, but if a child does get a BB then they should be able to keep up with the adult BB

[kachi]

It's tough, but I would have to draw a line and say 16 at a bare minimum for even considering it... Then from there decided if they are mature enough, which they should be by that point... But then again there are some real odd balls out there.

[CuongNhuka]

(clears throut angrely) The 16 year old is anouyed!!! Lets set some ground rules (as the undeserving see's it). A black belt is just a peice of cloth, it is a symbol. Period. It is a symbol of of knowledge, understnading, and time in the style. However, the young should not be black belts. The rank/symbol/cloth strip around the waist also symbolizes that the wearer is capable of teaching. A four year cann't (probabaly) teach worth beans. But a sixteen year old might be able. And if not, then someone should email my sensei and tell him that one of the assistent sensei's (who has been teaching since he was sixteen) shouldn't have been teaching. And for that matter neither should I.
Yes many kids are unable (or unwilling) to teach or perform anyother duty expected of the wearer of a black belt. But I know a 6th degree black belt that shouldn't be teaching, and he's in his 30's!!!!! Basing things on age is pointless. It's like saying that I'm unable to do something now, but tomorrow i will magicly be fully able. It makes no sense. Yes there should be a general guide line based on age, but the bulk of it should be based on maturity.

[RED]

This is a subject that has stuck in my craw for a while now. Any one under the age of 16 should only go as far as 7th grade / gup. After all most martial arts can inflict injury. You are a weapon. The problem I see is a kid’s parents pay for the test and then the school is in a dilemma either loose a student or promote the student. The student (and parents) should be trained from the beginning to understand the maturity to handle the skills involved at a Black Belt level. There was a day when someone that had a Black Belt brought high respect for said person. Now some people would laugh at the notion of a 5 year old with a Black Belt. It kind of degrades Martial Arts in general.

Another thing is the over confidence of a kid with a Black Belt. Even my daughter who is 11 said to me” don’t worry dad I know Tae Kwon Do” when I was talking to her about bad people kidnapping her. This is very dangerous. A BB kid might stay and fight when they should be running for their life. If I wanted a small kid to get into a car I would get them no matter the rank or martial arts skills. Young children up to about 12 should be taught how to recognize a dangerous position and what to do to prevent kidnappings and other crimes against them. Teaching about avoiding danger and bullies would be far better for a young child. Showing teaching children basic moves could be done but only for foundation building purposes only. At about 12 the body and the maturity is more apt for learning a martial art.

My 2 ¥

[RED]

WWOOEEHOOO! I'm a yellow belt!!!

OK its a big deal to me...I know I need to get a life, right?

[Mariachi Joe]

Congrats red, we were all there once and it's the first step on a long journey

[DArnold]

(clears throut angrely) The 16 year old is anouyed!!! Lets set some ground rules (as the undeserving see's it). A black belt is just a peice of cloth, it is a symbol. Period. It is a symbol of of knowledge, understnading, and time in the style. However, the young should not be black belts. The rank/symbol/cloth strip around the waist also symbolizes that the wearer is capable of teaching. A four year cann't (probabaly) teach worth beans. But a sixteen year old might be able. And if not, then someone should email my sensei and tell him that one of the assistent sensei's (who has been teaching since he was sixteen) shouldn't have been teaching. And for that matter neither should I.
Yes many kids are unable (or unwilling) to teach or perform anyother duty expected of the wearer of a black belt. But I know a 6th degree black belt that shouldn't be teaching, and he's in his 30's!!!!! Basing things on age is pointless. It's like saying that I'm unable to do something now, but tomorrow i will magicly be fully able. It makes no sense. Yes there should be a general guide line based on age, but the bulk of it should be based on maturity.

As my understanding of a Black belt seems to be quite different from everyone here I find some interesting concepts in your logic.

Your comments touch on some tangeble and intangeble items.

You say, "The rank/symbol/cloth strip around the waist also symbolizes that the wearer is capable of teaching."

So you base some of your judgement on the ability to teach.

Is this mearly your concept? Your schools? Your organizations?
And if it is that important wouldn't your requirements/curriculum (of you/your school/your organization) make sure these items were met if you were to promote someone?

Secondly you say, "...Yes there should be a general guide line based on age, but the bulk of it should be based on maturity"

I find this interesting as many students as well as high ranks think it is their god given right to be promoted because they have been around X days working out (Even more amaziang are those without and instructor)

In the orient you are not considered an adult until 40!

A vast majority of schools only base testing/promotions on things like physical ability and time (which I think is only half of what we should be doing)

So my question is: How do you teach (and more importantly) test a students maturity in your class?

I find that trying to draw a concrete line in the sand will only cause you ten-fold more problems as you are trying to do.

[wade]

Hmmmm, let's see, people that are under a certain age, (pick your own) should not be considered for black belt because they are not mature adults and can't keep up with adult BB's. Gosh, there are many "adult" BB's that can't keep up with other adult BB's. How many of you here would like to get in the ring with and Olympic level TKD player? I wouldn't. Does this make them any less a BB? In my opinion, No, I don't think so. Of course I'm KKW so maybe I'm a little biased, right terry? I have kids that are Pooms, jr. BB's and I am quite happy with them thank you very much. In fact, I think I'll keep them and maybe promote some more to replace them as they get older.

[Mariachi Joe]

Since you did start this thread, what is your opinion on the matter Christina

[morph4me]

A persons skill should match the rank that they wear. I attack and defend in the dojo based on the rank of the person I'm facing. If I'm facing a 5'2" 95 lb. woman wearing a black belt I'm going to go all out, and if I'm facing a 250 lb. 6' 5" white belt, I'm going easy. Size, Gender, Age, etc, is irrelevant. I don't question the judgement of the person who bestowed the rank.

[wade]

morph4me, what is your age, weight and rank?

[morph4me]

53, 210 and shodan

[wade]

So if your were attacking a 5'1' female 1st dan you would go all out with full power?

[morph4me]

Not full power, I don't go full power in the dojo, but the same power and intensity I would attack any other shodan with, to do less would be, in my opinion, disrespectful of the rank she was wearing.

[wade]

I'm confused, earlier you said you would go "all out" if facing a 5'2" woman wearing a BB., doesn't that mean full power, full speed, everything you have ever learned in the arts to prove that you are superior? If your are 53 and 210 lbs you are not a small man, this gives you a 115 lb weight advantage and how tall are you? so...................

In almost every contact sport there are at the least weight limits. Even if you were the same gender do you really feel this would be a fair fight?

Well, I don't think I would want you as one of my BB's, I don't think your attitude quite fits the small safe little world I have built up for my delicate students. The term bully does come to mind though.

OK, your turn.........................

[morph4me]

I'm confused, earlier you said you would go "all out" if facing a 5'2" woman wearing a BB., doesn't that mean full power, full speed, everything you have ever learned in the arts to prove that you are superior? If your are 53 and 210 lbs you are not a small man, this gives you a 115 lb weight advantage and how tall are you?

All out in the context of whatever we're doing in the dojo, so I'll go just as hard with each person of the same rank.



In almost every contact sport there are at the least weight limits. Even if you were the same gender do you really feel this would be a fair fight?

In a contact sport with weight limits it wouldn't be an issue, I wouldn't be facing someone that size


Well, I don't think I would want you as one of my BB's, I don't think your attitude quite fits the small safe little world I have built up for my delicate students. The term bully does come to mind though.

That would be your prerogative as the instructor. The women that I have trained with never had a problem with it, and gave as good as they got, and probably more, I have a great deal of respect and admiration for them and we've become close. I have faith that when they leave the dojo, the can handle pretty much whatever comes their way. I can only hope you feel the same about your students.

[wade]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were a non-contact system. My mistake. There is a difference and I can see why the women in your school wouldn't have a problem with it. In my school, Olympic style full contact TaeKwonDo there would definitely be a problem. When you are not actually hitting some one it does make a difference. Since we tend to go with "body displacement" to show the power of the impact we do tend to temper beating on the lower weight classes with full power. Once again, I appoligize........................................ .......As for my students, yeah, they do OK. Thanks for asking. Good response, thank you. I tend to forget there are other systems out there that don't actually try to bang the snot out of each other when they spar. Have a safe and happy New Year.

[kachi]

The rank/symbol/cloth strip around the waist also symbolizes that the wearer is capable of teaching.

I agree with DArnold here, I think this may be style or school specific, because we have seperate ranks for teaching than we do for martial ability. You may be a 4th dan black belt in our system but if you are not willing to or have no experience teaching your not allowed to teach. And belt rank outweighs teaching title. Just my 2 cents.

[morph4me]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were a non-contact system. My mistake. There is a difference and I can see why the women in your school wouldn't have a problem with it. In my school, Olympic style full contact TaeKwonDo there would definitely be a problem. When you are not actually hitting some one it does make a difference. Since we tend to go with "body displacement" to show the power of the impact we do tend to temper beating on the lower weight classes with full power. Once again, I appoligize........................................ .......As for my students, yeah, they do OK. Thanks for asking. Good response, thank you. I tend to forget there are other systems out there that don't actually try to bang the snot out of each other when they spar. Have a safe and happy New Year.

No apology necessary, I've really enjoyed this exchange.

I wouldn't call it a non contact system, but maybe I can explain better in the context of what you do.

If I were in your dojo, and your criteria for showing the power of impact was "body displacement" I wouldn't need to go as hard to displace a smaller person as I would a larger person, but I would go at them hard enough to demonstrate the power of my technique by displacing ther body, and it would be harder for a black belt than a lower rank. I hope that clears things up.

Once again, thanks for the exchange, Safe and Happy New Year to you too.

[bydand]

Morph & Wade, you 2 have just showed why I like this forum so much. Two different perspectives of an issue and instead of just flaming each other, a few posts later and you are both looking at the question from the same angle. I agree with both of you in this issue as well, a BB in any school should be the same as another BB in the same school, reguardless of age or gender. I know as a 6'2" 245# 43 year old construction worker, I've been handed my butt a few times from someone I would have considered a mere girl. Does she deserve her BB at 14? In this case yes she does. Granted she is a exceptional girl who shows great maturity and skill, and the youngest I have ever seen in this art. I have to say those would be the biggest factors in granting the BB in my eyes, maturity and skill. Do I attack her as hard as I do the 6'6" 325# welder in the same class? No, we are also going after body responce and i don't have to go as hard with someone who is less than half my weight and 8 or 10" shorter than I am, where I do with the welder.

[morph4me]

That is also the reason I like this forum so much, mutual respect among most of the members, no flame wars, just an exchange of ideas, and if we couldn't see each others points of view, we would agree to disagree.

[matt.m]

Gee, I have seen 12-14 yr old tkd dans in Moo Sul Kwan, They get the 1st dan belt and then retest at 15 or 16. Not even a possibility in Moo Sul Kwan Hapkido. No way it will happen. You aren't old enough to do the locks until at least 14 and that is for safety reasons.

[DArnold]

I agree with DArnold here, I think this may be style or school specific, because we have seperate ranks for teaching than we do for martial ability. You may be a 4th dan black belt in our system but if you are not willing to or have no experience teaching your not allowed to teach. And belt rank outweighs teaching title. Just my 2 cents.

Our phylosophy is a bit different.

Any instructor will tell you that they have learned just as much teaching as they have working out. Therefore, you can choose not to teach but you will not become a higher rank in our organization.

This prevents what we call TBB's (tourist black belts) - those who wish to become masters but have never had the experience/responsibility of mentoriing someone to black belt. To use this is akin to someone wanting to become a doctor but not wanting to take gross anatomy. It just doesn't/shouldn't happen.

With us you must be able to teach anything below your rank. It is part of the requirements. That way you do not have physically capapable students who don't have the mental understanding of what they are doing.

How would you become a master/higher rank without learning the important aspect of teaching and all that comes with it (mentally)

WADE
I think there is a big misconception here on fighting/sparring. Contact lever has nothing to do with how you fight.

Contact level only has to do with focus.

We find that turning down your sparring level based on rank/size/gender/age is a big waste of time. We fight any lower rank the way we fight any black belt. The only difference is focus. We believe that when you slow down your fighting you are patranizing the student and wasting time. You might as well go danceing as you will get the same out of it.

Most time seniors take this attitude and allow their minds to shut off when sparring juniors. I tell them to fight hard and they think that that means hit hard. Big mistake. Otherwise they dance around slowly and slap at the junior. This is a problem with seniors, keeping their minds engaged. There are so many mind sets you can work on when sparring with a junior that you don't have to patronize them. Try these:

Block everything thrown - never get touched
In every clash, always be the first to score
Never let the junior get in range - withour running away
Score first using only only one technique - not a flurry
Use techniques from your highest form/pattern only...

These are just some things seniors can do to keep their mind engaged and in every instance there is no need to fight slow or light.
As long as you have focus!

[Rich Parsons]

There's a good discussion of this here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42905&highlight=year+black+belts).

While I have a problem with children too young to walk across the parking lot without holding an adult's hand receiving black belts, I am not willing to draw an arbitrary line in the sand and say "no one below age X can be a black belt". I think there is a level of maturity necessary before one confers that rank on anyone - and I have met children who have that level of maturity, and adults who do not. A good instructor is able to determine who is, and is not, ready for a black belt - mentally as well as physically.


Kacey et al,

I like this "While I have a problem with children too young to walk across the parking lot without holding an adult's hand receiving black belts".

My 15 y/o nephew recently asked me why he could drive a car soon but even at 18 not drink or get a Concealed Pistol License. I smiled and said there are tages of maturity and right now in our state at 16 to 19 all your points for driving infractions are double points and you must be 10 months free from accident (* even if not your fault *) and ticket free even if this means you go out indefinitely to get off of probation.

So let us assume that you are free to drive after 19 and no longer on probation, but you cannot still drink until you are 21. Because it is kind of like being on probation to show you can make mature decisions.

I do like your comments that I quoted though. It kind of puts things into perspective.

[Rich Parsons]

Hmmmm, let's see, people that are under a certain age, (pick your own) should not be considered for black belt because they are not mature adults and can't keep up with adult BB's. Gosh, there are many "adult" BB's that can't keep up with other adult BB's. How many of you here would like to get in the ring with and Olympic level TKD player? I wouldn't. Does this make them any less a BB? In my opinion, No, I don't think so. Of course I'm KKW so maybe I'm a little biased, right terry? I have kids that are Pooms, jr. BB's and I am quite happy with them thank you very much. In fact, I think I'll keep them and maybe promote some more to replace them as they get older.

If the definition for any rank be it White 1 or Black or what have you, is that the student can perform a certain series of techniques only then I could see your point. If the student also is onely allowed to spar under certain conditions with safety equipement and always contolled by others, and this is the only time the sparring occurs I can see your point. This is education and application under controller situations. The students learn when they can use it and how to use it.

If part of a definition of a certain rank is to have some aspect of self-defense this is where having a child or someone younger with rank might be of concern.

Personaly anyone of any rank can get hit. No matter the size or years of training. Yet, to have a child think they can survive an attack from an adult, could be misleading. To run away, and get help yes.

[jks9199]

Our phylosophy is a bit different.

Any instructor will tell you that they have learned just as much teaching as they have working out. Therefore, you can choose not to teach but you will not become a higher rank in our organization.

This prevents what we call TBB's (tourist black belts) - those who wish to become masters but have never had the experience/responsibility of mentoriing someone to black belt. To use this is akin to someone wanting to become a doctor but not wanting to take gross anatomy. It just doesn't/shouldn't happen.

With us you must be able to teach anything below your rank. It is part of the requirements. That way you do not have physically capapable students who don't have the mental understanding of what they are doing.

How would you become a master/higher rank without learning the important aspect of teaching and all that comes with it (mentally)


While I agree that any advanced student, especially a black belt, should be capable of teaching in a system where that is expected of black belts (some systems do separate teaching proficiency/license from technical proficiency), and that no matter what, every advanced student should be able to help a less advanced student improve when they train together -- not everyone is a good teacher. Some people just can't communicate the skills as well as others; they can learn ways to do so better, but they'll never really be a good teacher. This doesn't mean that they aren't technically skilled; their talents just don't lie in teaching. And it's a disservice both to them and students to force them to teach.

Sure, they're missing out on much of the learning that comes from breaking something down in order to teach it -- but that alone doesn't justify requiring them to teach. Forcing someone to teach that isn't interested or good at it doesn't help them or the student; it all but guarantees a poor outcome.

I'm not a fan of junior black belts or giving black belts to kids. But I choose to train in a system that doesn't do that. If I know someone who wants their kid to be a black belt -- then I'm going to refer them to schools that will do so.

To me, a black belt is a recognition of technical skill, dedicated training, and some personal maturity. In my system, it's in indication that you may instruct without supervision -- but not a guarantee that you will or can.

[morph4me]

One of the requirements for black belt in our system is 1 year teaching as a brown belt under the supervision of a black belt. By watching the brown belt teach, the black belt has an opportunity to mentor them and make sure that their understanding of the techniques, is complete and correct. Whether the student chooses to teach is up them, but there is no doubt that they can do it.

[Xue Sheng]

And at what age do you think is to young to recieve a black belt?

My first style, back in the Stone Age, was Jujitsu and you simply could not get a black belt before 18 back then and I still feel the same today. So anyone under 18, in my opinion, is too young.

And believe it or not I was far under 18 at the time and I agreed with it even then.

[DArnold]

While I agree that any advanced student, especially a black belt, should be capable of teaching in a system where that is expected of black belts (some systems do separate teaching proficiency/license from technical proficiency), and that no matter what, every advanced student should be able to help a less advanced student improve when they train together -- not everyone is a good teacher. Some people just can't communicate the skills as well as others; they can learn ways to do so better, but they'll never really be a good teacher. This doesn't mean that they aren't technically skilled; their talents just don't lie in teaching. And it's a disservice both to them and students to force them to teach.

Sure, they're missing out on much of the learning that comes from breaking something down in order to teach it -- but that alone doesn't justify requiring them to teach. Forcing someone to teach that isn't interested or good at it doesn't help them or the student; it all but guarantees a poor outcome.

I'm not a fan of junior black belts or giving black belts to kids. But I choose to train in a system that doesn't do that. If I know someone who wants their kid to be a black belt -- then I'm going to refer them to schools that will do so.

To me, a black belt is a recognition of technical skill, dedicated training, and some personal maturity. In my system, it's in indication that you may instruct without supervision -- but not a guarantee that you will or can.

We don't force anyone to teach, just as we don't force anyone to learn how to do a front kick.
I guess if you do want to use that terminology then you can not use it for one and not another.
Yes, I force my student to learn kicks, I force them to learn patterns, I force them to learn sparring, I force them to learn teaching.
Teaching is just another aspect of the art that as an instructor I must show them how to do.

You show them the beauty in kicks.
You show them the beauty in patters
You show them the beauty in self defense
Do you show them the beauty in teaching?
Do you have a curriculum that is current through all ranks or do you just say, "Your a black belt now so go teach"

With many I found they were never taught/challenged with teaching or shown the fun or beauty so many times it is missing in a curriculum.

However, allowing the student to decide what the want to do, and not do, is not an acceptable form of teaching with us.

While I agree everyone is not a natural at teaching I believe that they can learn. Teaching is an art like kicking. This is not to say that you just throw them out there and tell them to teach. You have to teach them "how to teach". Now if they choose to do so or not then that is the students prerogative. Just like they can choose to practice their kicks or not.

However, Do you believe both should have an affect on their rank progression?

I find that all students will rise to the level that you expect of them. Also that it is an instructors responsibility to put hurdles in front of a student and that they will always have the option to quite.

I find it a disservice to let students use the excuse that they are not good at teaching or don't like it to allow them to slide. As an instructor it is my job to show them the way past this.

What if you allow this exact excuse/logic for physical competency in your MA? Is that acceptable? Why would this logic be acceptable in one and not the other?

I don't want to do patterns because I am not good at them!

Another question, for these people who do not wish to give back to their art or teach, how high in rank do you allow them to go?

Do you allow people to become masters who only show up twice a week and that is all they do?

Can you become a master without teaching simply because you learn the physical part of a MA only?

Where do you draw the line once you say this excuse is ok?

[Tez3]

I find the age differences in what you can and can't do between our countries interesting. Most MA clubs I know over here will give BB to 16 years old (rarely younger) if they merit it but they are cadet belts only not full Dan grades. This allows the student to feel they are not being held back by being young. They are rewarded, if you like, for their hard work and dedication but not given the burden of responsiblilty a Dan grade would give them. They get the respect for their work but also know they have a way to go and work hard for their Dan grade.
Here the youngest you can get a driving licence is 17 while you can vote and drink legally at 18.

[searcher]

I believe that it is up to the instructor on an individual basis. We cannot set out the same judgement for evey person without some level of flexibility. I have had many adults that were not of a maturity to receive a BB even at 40 and I have had students that were in their low teens that were very mature. The same goes with knowledge and fighting skill. If you feel that the student is too young then you should have a junior BB grading and then when the time is right you can test them for an adult grade. That is what I do BTW.

I am curious as to how many are saying that it is too young are under BB rank? I often see a level of jealousy that arises when a young student rises to BB and an older student is not there yet. They feel that they are deserving and the other is not, so they get very jealous and are full of resentment for younger students out-ranking them.

[arnisador]

As a rule, I can't see giving out black belts to kids younger than 16. But it all depends on what a black belt means to you. To me, it should mean that you can defend yourself against a typical attacker, not a comparably-sized attacker. The average 8 year old black belt would get pummeled by the average mugger. But I suppose if you practice kyudo, or even a sport like Judo, this might not seem like a relevant criterion.

[Tez3]

Although they don't grade in MMA I know several 14-16 year old amateur MMA fighters who would kick ass in any street situation.At 16 most of them go to semi pro rules, then at 18 they go onto pro rules. Many of them are also higher grades including Dan grades in traditional styles too.

[CuongNhuka]

As my understanding of a Black belt seems to be quite different from everyone here I find some interesting concepts in your logic.

Your comments touch on some tangeble and intangeble items.

You say, "The rank/symbol/cloth strip around the waist also symbolizes that the wearer is capable of teaching."

So you base some of your judgement on the ability to teach.

Is this mearly your concept? Your schools? Your organizations?
And if it is that important wouldn't your requirements/curriculum (of you/your school/your organization) make sure these items were met if you were to promote someone?

Secondly you say, "...Yes there should be a general guide line based on age, but the bulk of it should be based on maturity"

I find this interesting as many students as well as high ranks think it is their god given right to be promoted because they have been around X days working out (Even more amaziang are those without and instructor)

In the orient you are not considered an adult until 40!

A vast majority of schools only base testing/promotions on things like physical ability and time (which I think is only half of what we should be doing)

So my question is: How do you teach (and more importantly) test a students maturity in your class?

I find that trying to draw a concrete line in the sand will only cause you ten-fold more problems as you are trying to do.

We acctuly agree, to a degree. So to reply:

It should be based on ability to teach. But like all other tests there should also be requirements of time and techniqucal knowledge.

The Cuong Nhu Oreintal Martial Arts Assocation (or CNOMAA for short) will not allow anyone under the age of 16 to be a black belt. And after that it is up to time (minimum of 4 years, 6 is the norm though) and grade (must know all techniques taught up to that point). Not to mention the person must be mature enough to handle the honor. It's only cloth, but it's still an honor.

Teach maturity: cann't be taught in the traditional sense.
Test maturity: give them a responsability. Like leading warm up, or teaching someone

There you go

[Christina05]

I love all the feed back its really awsome to know you can ask a serious question and get diffrent answers with out causing a war. And just to let everyone know I do read each and every reply that is posted. Everyone has some good valid reasons and some awsome points on the matter. I have asked this question over and over again to diffrent people even people not into martial arts and gotten similar responses. As for me I got a BB at a young age and to be totally honest I worked hard for it. Some say this is a question of maturity and like most of you said I too have seen adults at age 40 not be as mature as a 12 year old. So why give a 40 year old a BB and not the 12 year old. Which brings me to my next question what does a black belt mean to you? Better yet if they are given out like toys does it really mean anything? Any average joe blow can go out and buy a black belt but it doesnt make him a black belt. I guess the point I'm trying to make is you can pass a child off as a black belt but it doesnt make that child a black belt. I think if an instructor honestly has passed a student that is not deserving then maybe he is in his profession for the wrong reason.

[Kacey]

Which brings me to my next question what does a black belt mean to you?

Black belt, to me, is a beginning - proof that, in the eyes of my instructor, and his instructor, I met the minimum standard to truly begin to learn.


Better yet if they are given out like toys does it really mean anything?

It depends on who is giving them out - because even in McDojos, there are many truly deserving students, who, by the standards of their organization, are deserving of moving on to the next level. Some of them learn that the standards are different elsewhere, and some of them go on to earn black belts in other organizations and/or styles; some don't - does that make their achievement any less in their eyes - and yes, I know, if makes it less in the eyes of others who underwent more strenuous requirements, but that's not my point here. Certainly, there are students who receive black belts who shouldn't, and just as certainly, there are differences in standards between, and even within, organizations.

Who are we to judge what does, and does not, mean something to the person who attains it? Yes, it waters down the meaning of black belt for those of us who went through more strenuous processes - but that doesn't make it meaningless for those who don't.

[CuongNhuka]

Well, like I said, a black belt (ultimately) is just a peice of cloth. But it is a symbol. A symbol of time, knowledge, ablility, skill, understanding, and the ability to teach. That is (ultimaltly) what differenatiates a white belt from a black belt. In my humble oppion. :asian:

[matt.m]

Wow,

This last post was really good in my opinion. Look, who are we to judge? Well in I will put it in a perspective of the military. Marine Corps bootcamp is the hardest of the four. Physically, mentally, you just sweat a little more blood and have more discipline at the end.

This does not take away from the achievement from those who volunteered the be sailors, soldiers or airmen. They chose how they wanted to serve our country so be it, I will call it a horrible disservice to those who would challenge their commitment.

[jks9199]

I love all the feed back its really awsome to know you can ask a serious question and get diffrent answers with out causing a war. And just to let everyone know I do read each and every reply that is posted. Everyone has some good valid reasons and some awsome points on the matter. I have asked this question over and over again to diffrent people even people not into martial arts and gotten similar responses. As for me I got a BB at a young age and to be totally honest I worked hard for it. Some say this is a question of maturity and like most of you said I too have seen adults at age 40 not be as mature as a 12 year old. So why give a 40 year old a BB and not the 12 year old. Which brings me to my next question what does a black belt mean to you? Better yet if they are given out like toys does it really mean anything? Any average joe blow can go out and buy a black belt but it doesnt make him a black belt. I guess the point I'm trying to make is you can pass a child off as a black belt but it doesnt make that child a black belt. I think if an instructor honestly has passed a student that is not deserving then maybe he is in his profession for the wrong reason.

I've never said, and I've never meant to imply that child black belts don't work hard for their belts. Many of them train quite hard, and very seriously.

As I said -- to me a black belt recognizes skill level and technical understanding, as well as some maturity. I won't recommend someone for black belt, no matter how skilled they are, if I don't feel that their conduct will be, overall, a good example for underbelts. I've declined to recommend at least one person, and held off on a few others. And I've been let down by at least one whom I did recommend... It'd be nice to see him again, since we haven't seen him since shortly after he got promoted. (And if you happen to recognize yourself in this... Get in touch with your teachers, whoever they may be!)

The simple truth is that a black belt doesn't know anything more the day after they were promoted than the day before. That belt doesn't convey any special ability; I know some underbelts who are much better at explaining and teaching concepts than I am, for example. I look for not only skill, not only understanding, but something that goes deeper; I guess you can call it commitment or dedication. If the black belt is the goal in and of itself -- than I feel that the person isn't training, within our system, for the right reasons. A black belt is also a responsibility to help pass on what you've learned, within our system. (Note that I am constantly qualifying this with phrases like "within our system"; more on that in just a moment.) Perhaps that's by teaching a club of your own somewhere -- or perhaps it's simply by training hard and regularly taking part in the club you came up in, and being a good example of a student for under belts.

But -- the ultimate thing is that there is no one definition of "black belt", except to say "a piece of material, black in color, used to hold the pants up or the jacket closed." One system may say that a black belt is a teacher, while another says that a black belt is just someone who's finally ready to start learning; teaching licence is another thing entirely there. Another may say that you must have a competitive record showing a certain number of wins to be a black belt, while others simply require that you have competed regularly over the past year. Some require several hundred hours of training, and others require several thousand hours of training to even be considered for a black belt. So, in the end, the question of "what is a black belt" really becomes "what does a black belt mean, within the context of a particular system under a certain instructor, to a specific person?" There's just no one answer...

[jks9199]

It depends on who is giving them out - because even in McDojos, there are many truly deserving students, who, by the standards of their organization, are deserving of moving on to the next level. Some of them learn that the standards are different elsewhere, and some of them go on to earn black belts in other organizations and/or styles; some don't - does that make their achievement any less in their eyes - and yes, I know, if makes it less in the eyes of others who underwent more strenuous requirements, but that's not my point here. Certainly, there are students who receive black belts who shouldn't, and just as certainly, there are differences in standards between, and even within, organizations.

Who are we to judge what does, and does not, mean something to the person who attains it? Yes, it waters down the meaning of black belt for those of us who went through more strenuous processes - but that doesn't make it meaningless for those who don't.

That's a good point. My system's association has recently revamped black belt testing significantly. Does that mean that a person who earned the black belt before isn't as skilled or tough or whatever as one who earns it today? Does that make the people who got promoted to higher level black belts the old way better or worse than the ones who go through the new process? And I know that other systems have changed their requirements at different times, as well.

My personal opinion is that if the question is raw skill -- that speaks for itself as you watch the person train or teach. Belt rankings, after all, are only external indicators -- and some people have chosen not to play the games for the external badges at this time.

[searcher]

To me, it should mean that you can defend yourself against a typical attacker, not a comparably-sized attacker.

So then with what you said, do we not promote women or those who are of a less then avreage size or ability? What about older students? Who should be stated as the standard attacker? Do you wnat it to be a large nasty individual? I feel that your statement leaves some very large holes. Are you willing to give up your rank if you lose one street fight or if you fail to stop yourself from getting mugged? I am not wanting to start a fight and I mean no disrespect, but your statement begs to have these questions asked.

[Ybot]

I'm always amazed that people can compare black belts from across styles. It's not just non-martial artists either. I take Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and I know that a black belt in my art means something very different than a black belt in other arts. Even a black belt in Judo, our closest relation (Martial Arts wise) means something totally different than a Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. Requirements and thoughts about what constitutes a blackbelt verry greatly between the arts. I believe that some arts it is perfectly fine to have a black belt at a reasonible age (they have to understand what their belt signifies, and make a comitment to up hold those standards).

Anyway, from the perspective of my art it is vertually impossible to get a Black Belt at 18 (unless perhaps your father is Helio Gracie). We have a seperate progression of belts for children under the age of 16. At 16, if they can show they can hang, they can recieve their Blue belt which would be the first belt awarded after white to an adult. 16 year old blues I've found held to even a higher standard of technique than an adult blue, because their still developing bodies are not as strong as an adults of equal size, so in order to hang their technique is great.

At this point they are not allowed to progress further until they reach 18. This isn't really a big deal, as most adults take around 2 years to transition from blue to purple as well.

Being that the youngest you can recieve your purple at is 18, it becomes extreemly hard to get a black before 19 or 20. Typicly it's another 2 years at purple (now 20), then another 2 at brown (now 22).

That's just our system, and I find that most who train BJJ don't have a problem with that. Belts weigh heavy in BJJ (trust me, as someone nearing brown).

I heard somewhere the other day (can't remember where), that "We don't chase the belts, the belts chase us." This really sums up how I feal about our belt system.

Now, is this the "right way" of doing belts... again I say no. I understand the concept of black originaly was to indicate the level where you really begin to learn your art. If this is the case the average 10 years to get black in BJJ is probably a bit eccessive.

[DArnold]

So then with what you said, do we not promote women or those who are of a less then avreage size or ability? What about older students? Who should be stated as the standard attacker? Do you wnat it to be a large nasty individual? I feel that your statement leaves some very large holes. Are you willing to give up your rank if you lose one street fight or if you fail to stop yourself from getting mugged? I am not wanting to start a fight and I mean no disrespect, but your statement begs to have these questions asked.

Here, Here, If this is what you basis of rank is then I would call it more of a fighting system and not a Martial Art.

It starts to become more of an Olympic sport where very few participate, learn, or improve themselves.

Over time most seniors learn that the physical is only 50% of a martial art.

[juszczec]

There is rank and ability.

Rank is an organizational thing. Satisfy the requirements of the organization and you get the rank.

Ability is independent of rank.

Wanna give a 4 year old a black belt? Ok. Go ahead. Run your org however you want.

Mark

[Christina05]

Arguments well spoken:). Guess it just depends on what your organization requires of the student. like someone stated if you want to give a four year old a black belt its your business.

[jdinca]

I guess whether or not the BB is relevant, or just a strip of cloth really depends on the system and its requirements. Our school has only given one BB to someone below the age of 16. Not because there is an imposed age requirement but because most teenagers don't have the level of maturity and composure that we consider to be more important that the physical movement. The BB I mentioned received his at age 14. He had started at 3 1/2, has won an incredible number of awards, was named IKF youth of the year in '05, and was on the Wushu "B" team for the '08 Olympics. If it weren't for the fact that mentally and emotionally he's one of the most put together kids I've ever known, he still wouldn't be a BB. It's for that reason that I question the school that would give children a BB. What is the requirement for that BB and what do you expect in return for awarding the belt? I honestly think that in most cases, awarding a BB to a child is doing the child a disservice.

[scottt]

morph4me, what is your age, weight and rank?

I'm guessing 12, 80lbs, 2nd geup? ;) (really, that's a friendly jab).

I'm also a Kukkiwon type guy, so I am with Wade on this one. For a 10 year old kid who literally spent half his life in tkd, I don't have a problem giving out a poom belt. I do go out of my way to explain even within our club that that is a _junior_ black belt. As long as the kid keeps training, he can convert it to a dan grade later, and the rules and ages for doing so are posted on the Kukkiwon website.

However, that doesn't explain why I have seen other Kukkiwon schools give black belts out to kids that are still looking forward to junior high. However, each school makes its own decisions on these things, I guess.