Crimials are training

[Wild Bill]

While lurking over at Kenpo Talk I found a discussion about EPAK in prison. It got me thinking. I am a proponent of CQC/defensive tactics training. Although I enjoy martial arts I have never been able to study seriously for more than a few months at a time. As a result the bulk of my training has been in military and law enforcement hand to hand combatives. I believe these methods are good when trained realistically, however, one of the assumptions of many CQC proponents is that in a real street fight they will go up against untrained, out of shape punks. There are some people that are so deluded that they think they can take out Tito Ortiz with a chin jab.

If you stupidly get into a fight you may well be up against some guy who is out of shape and hasn’t been trained but there is a big difference between getting into a fight and defending yourself. If you get into a fight it is probably because you are acting just as stupid as the person you are fighting. You could have avoided the situation if you had been smarter. In a self defense situation you have no choice but to use force against someone who is attacking you for fun or profit. The type of person that will rob or rape you is most likely a career criminal. He or she has probably been in and out of the prison system most of their lives. As a corrections officer I can tell you that these people are training and they are in good shape. I would say that 97% of the people I guard are in better shape than the average American. They live in a macho subculture were the strong dominate the weak. They have nothing better to do all day except work out. I have personally caught criminals exchanging martial arts techniques. Slap boxing isn’t just goofing around. They are sparring.

My advice to people concerned about self defense is to train as often as you can as hard as you can. Whenever it is legal to do so you should carry weapons. Be as prepared as possible. If you have to deal with one of these predators you will need everything you can muster.

[Jonathan Randall]

I was under the impression that Martial Arts training in either jail or prison was prohibited. Are these folks doing it "unofficially". If so, who's the jerk that's training them, and why can't his behind be nailed?

[Wild Bill]

why can't his behind be nailed?

For the same reason we can't stop them from dealing drugs and having sex with each other in prison. There are more prisoners than there are guards. There is always a nook or dark spot that guars can't see. If they get caught they are punished but unless we can prove that it is organized gang activity or something like that there is very little we can do. You would be surprised at how many rights prisoners have and how difficult it is to punish them.

[Jonathan Randall]

For the same reason we can't stop them from dealing drugs and having sex with each other in prison. There are more prisoners than there are guards. There is always a nook or dark spot that guars can't see. If they get caught they are punished but unless we can prove that it is organized gang activity or something like that there is very little we can do. You would be surprised at how many rights prisoners have and how difficult it is to punish them.

Understood. Thanks for the clarification.

[Drac]

Saw a video at a police conference of 2 prisoners practicing escapes from the wall handcuffing position..Very Scary...

[MJS]

I was a CO for a short time, and its true. These guys have nothing to do all day, so they spend their time working out and doing as Wild Bill and Drac stated. Some of these guys are in better shape than folks I'd see at the gym! I remember one guy taking a deck of playing cards. He'd put the pile on the floor and flip one card over. He would then perform a certain number of push ups. He'd rest for a few and repeat this process until the entire deck was finished!


I was under the impression that Martial Arts training in either jail or prison was prohibited. Are these folks doing it "unofficially". If so, who's the jerk that's training them, and why can't his behind be nailed?

Yes sir, thats correct, it is prohibited. As I said, these guys have nothing to do all day, so they exchange ideas. Someone shows the next guy how to improve on his punching, escaping from cuffs, etc., and in return, the other guy explains his techniques for breaking into and hotwiring a car. As for being nailed...many of these guys are facing many years in prison and some life sentences. Taking away visitation or phone priviledges for a week is nothing for someone who is facing 60 yrs behind bars. They'll suck it up for that time and go right back to doing the same thing.

Mike

[Drac]

So remember MA's if you should think about engaging one of these individuals...THEY HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE!!!..

[SFC JeffJ]

I saw a video a while back showing prisoners practicing surprise knife attacks. Scary stuff.

[KenpoTex]

My advice to people concerned about self defense is to train as often as you can as hard as you can. Whenever it is legal to do so you should carry weapons. Be as prepared as possible. If you have to deal with one of these predators you will need everything you can muster.
That was so good it just needs repeating :D


Your points about violent career criminals are dead on, you're not going to survive against one of these guys w/o some serious, realistic training and the proper combative mindset. Unfortunately, I would say that the vast majority of those who call themselves martial-artists or who claim to be proficient in self-defense would be no match for a criminal of the type being discussed here.

[Brian R. VanCise]

One thing people sometimes miss when training is to remember to train as if your life depended on it. This is easily said but sometimes forgotten on the Training Hall floors.

[terryl965]

One thing people sometimes miss when training is to remember to train as if your life depended on it. This is easily said but sometimes forgotten on the Training Hall floors.


agreed Brian we sometime take it for granted that we know more than them.

[Drac]

This topic was touched on once before do a Search for Redemption-can martial training help...Interesting reading...

[CuongNhuka]

You would be surprised at how many rights prisoners have and how difficult it is to punish them.

See this is the part of the American Justice System that ticks me off. They broke the law, they shouldn't have rights as far as I'm conscerned.

[Drac]

See this is the part of the American Justice System that ticks me off. They broke the law, they shouldn't have rights as far as I'm conscerned.

You ain't alone with those beliefs...

[jks9199]

Saw a video at a police conference of 2 prisoners practicing escapes from the wall handcuffing position..Very Scary...

That one's been around for some time. Prisoners ARE actively, openly and covertly, practicing and teaching each other combative techniques targeted at both law enforcement and civilians. Add in many street gang members who are enlisting in the military solely to acquire training in combat techniques, and there's a nightmare in the offing... I'm aware of one incident in CA where a gang member/USMC veteran (given his actions and the respect I hold for the Corps, I won't call him a Marine) staged an ambush and used his combat training and experience to assault and kill the responding officers.

And, there are people who feel that teaching martial arts to prisoners is good and will help reform them...

[Drac]

And, there are people who feel that teaching martial arts to prisoners is good and will help reform them...

Hence the thread I mentioned...

[kachi]

I remember one guy taking a deck of playing cards. He'd put the pile on the floor and flip one card over. He would then perform a certain number of push ups. He'd rest for a few and repeat this process until the entire deck was finished!


I've done this one a few times before, each suit is a different type of push up and whatever number is on the card that's how many you do. It's one hell of a workout and if these guys in prison doing this regularly along with other workouts they'd be strong as all hell.

Still i'm sure that a prisoners technique wouldn't be anywhere near as sharp as someone who is able to train regularly at a dojo and they wouldn't have access to the variety and range of techniques, defences, kata, feedback, etc... that we have. The prisoners wouldn't be able to train all day every day and if they're just working out then that shouldn't to much of a problem if you can apply your defence techniques correctly.

[Wild Bill]

You would be surprised. I am talking about people who grow up fighting to survive. Don't underestimate superior conditioning, both mental and physical. The last time I responded to a use of force I found two gaurds overcome by their own pepper spray and a pissed of inmate ready to fight. Most of these people are little more than animals. I don't mean to sound unenlighted but my practical experiance says I'm right.

I don't know what it is like in Australia but martial arts in the U.S. are pretty expensive. I don't think it is a big leap for me to believe that most people that can afford lessons are middle and upper class. We live by rules. Criminals do not. Perhaps I should discribe them as over grown children rather than animals. They act out and don't care about the consequences of their actions. When criminals are taken to task for their actions they are not sorry for the harm they have caused others. They are sorry that they are being punished.

Most martial artists, even those of us who train in modern practical arts, will find it very difficult to engage in the brutality that may be necessary in order to win a real bloody fight. Make no mistake. There will be blood. What I am really trying to say is that us nice civilized martial artists are not as dangeous as we would like to think. Do you have what it takes to shove your thumbs into someones eyes and feel the gore running down your hands. Can you whip out that hundred dollar tactical forlder and stab another human being in their guts. I would like to answer in the affirmative but you just can't know how you will react until it happens to you. Fortunately most of us won't have to go to those extremes but it is something to think about.

[pstarr]

Having worked both as a peace officer and as a correctional officer in a prison, I have to agree. These people are barely above the level of animals and they have no problem doing whatever it takes to get whatever it is that they want.

You have to be willing and able to do whatever it takes to stop them if need be.

[Robert Lee]

Prisoner or regular person Heart has to do with fighting wanting to win want to fight on then skill. A person can workout but They have to have the heart to fight on. I was told over thirty years ago. Train towards having to fight what type a person you would think would be your worst person to fight. If you train toward that trype of person others that are less a fighter will be much easyer to fight. Means train hard and be comitted to to your training. Rest is living and doing what you have to if the time comes.

[CuongNhuka]

Heres a breif bio about myself, it explains why I hangout in this area and why I'm fascinated by Eagle Claw and Jui Jitsu.

Freshman year in high school someone was messing with my stuff in gym. Take it out of my binder and hide it. Then leave it for me to find. I didn't Care. I didin't have really anything in it of value. One day some genious took every thing out of one pocket of my binder and spilled it out all over the end of the aisle. I gathered it up and put it back and changed. Then I look through what was there and was not. My art not book was MIA. One of the few things i cared about.
I rechecked, then went back to were it was, and looked around. It was no were to be found. So I stood up on the bench and shouted "so weres my ********** note book". Some giggles, and I shouted it again. Then some one says "Hay is it green? Because if it is, it's back here and people keep stepping on it." It was, so I looked.
Some kid had it. I'd heard that this kid is some hard core gangester (in and out of jail, does drugs, that sorta thing). He's holding it out for me, so I'm thinking he's not so bad. Then he puts it behaind his back and says "If you want it. Come and get it". I went and got it. (upper cut to the solar plexus). He dropped it and ran, I thought he was going to get freinds, or give himself some more room, so I through a kick to his head. Keep him running yah know?
Turns out he already dropped it and just kept on running. I let him go and grabbed my note book and put it back. Turns out Mr. Kevin Marcos, even though he's such a shineing example of human desencey, has more weight then me when it comes to incident reports. I got charged with assault in the thrid degree (what ever the crud that means) and got a year of probation and expelled. He got butkis.

Skip ahead three months and I'm in what my school district calls "the alternitive school", I call the seventh ring of the Infreno. In my class of 45, 22 claimed to be in gang, 44 were there for a violent offense (the last grabbed a girl's .... well, you get it). I had to wait for the bus with a couple people I wouldn't trust with timex (cheap rolex knock off). I was already doing Cuong Nhu, so I picked up a copy of any book on Jui Jitsu or Eagle Claw I could find (both are big into pressure points, restraining, conrtolling and lethal techniques).
My new school has a heavy gang problem, and I have a heavy problem with those in gangs. So I still do alot of resaerch into Jui Jitsu and Eagle Claw. I'm also constanly armed with weapons that are legal (top of the list is a silver tonque and fists that work well as anvils.)

So there yah go. I had a place to go with this.... what was it.... it'll come to me later.

[CuongNhuka]

Now i remember, my comments on the following remarks:
1. to jks9199 - See thats the scary thing. There is a line from "Gangs of New York" that comes to mind. "100 Irish come to these shoars a day. Thats almost a thousand a week. If we get all of them in, we ain't got a gang. We got an army". some gangs seem to building just that. An army. But heres the really scary thing. If you add up every one in a gang, who is more loyal to a gang then the U.S, and anyone who has been to jail for drugs/violence and you don't have a gang. You have an army. A massive army.
Heres the part that could turn hair white, they might very well out number the U.S. Armed Forces, be tacticlly equal to the U.S. Armed forces, and be Physically Superior to the U.S. Armed Forces. They're also more probably more motivated then the Armed Forces (army for country, gangsters for suvival). If you get that army, and motivate them to do something it's done. If you motivate them to invade China, China becomes one giant piece of gang territory in a month.
They've been more or less breed to be fighters. It's alsmot in there genes, it's who they are. It's what they are. There are two reasons why people can sleep at night inspite of this fact. One, gangs are normally unorganized, spend most of there time fighting each other, and as far as I'm aware non of them have stollen any tanks, planes, or nuclear devices. And if that isn't the reason, it's because they're stupid.

Kachi - True. But I know a kid that trained with a for awhile, quite and came back after two years of lifting weights. Now he's fast as, well, a gun shot. Pore technique, but deamonic speed and strength.

wild bill - Why I don't like weapons. They're too easy to be used against you. That also goes to my whole, better motivated then the army. And I agree with that last post. That's why I don't like it when people use self defense as a reason to train. You may, or you may not be able. But what is your definition of a "modern practicale art"?

Robert Lee - BINGO!!!!! People normally think it's all about rage, or technique, or conditioning. It's not. It's about heart. It starts and ends with heart.

[MJS]

I've done this one a few times before, each suit is a different type of push up and whatever number is on the card that's how many you do. It's one hell of a workout and if these guys in prison doing this regularly along with other workouts they'd be strong as all hell.

Never thought about matching the number of pushups with the number shown on the card. Yes, doing that would certainly get one in shape real fast.


Still i'm sure that a prisoners technique wouldn't be anywhere near as sharp as someone who is able to train regularly at a dojo and they wouldn't have access to the variety and range of techniques, defences, kata, feedback, etc... that we have. The prisoners wouldn't be able to train all day every day and if they're just working out then that shouldn't to much of a problem if you can apply your defence techniques correctly.

This is true to a certain point, but alot of it is going to come down to how the MAist trains.

[jks9199]

I've done this one a few times before, each suit is a different type of push up and whatever number is on the card that's how many you do. It's one hell of a workout and if these guys in prison doing this regularly along with other workouts they'd be strong as all hell.

Still i'm sure that a prisoners technique wouldn't be anywhere near as sharp as someone who is able to train regularly at a dojo and they wouldn't have access to the variety and range of techniques, defences, kata, feedback, etc... that we have. The prisoners wouldn't be able to train all day every day and if they're just working out then that shouldn't to much of a problem if you can apply your defence techniques correctly.

The sad truth is that some of those criminals in jail are held to higher standards of physical training and practice than most of us are willing to do. I've seen multiple videos from different prisons showing prison gangs leading calisthenics and training sessions. And the inmates are motivated... Bubba makes sure of that.

And, when it comes to an attack -- skill often isn't a major issue. They don't need 200 different punches or even 10... They just need ONE that they've worked to perfection, and practiced using in a surprise attack on an unsuspecting victim. In my martial art we have a saying that's equally applicable to any discussion that gets into the "they don't have the number of techniques or skills" issue. It goes like this:
One perfected punch is superior to one thousand ineffectual flailings.

[kachi]

Wild Bill - I've obviously under-estimated the abilities of an inmate, probably due to the fact that i've never seen one in action. And I don't know about other people but in a life or death situation I've got an arsenal of techniques that I'd be willing to use. I am willing to do anything (that is necessary) to survive.

CuongNhuka - You say it's all about heart, but what good is the drive if you have don't have the proper skill to back it up? Both people in a fight are gonna have the drive and determination to win, but if you don't know how to fight you've got nothing. After a bit of thinking, I realised that everything is just as important as the next. With no heart, you don't have the drive to win. With no skill, your probably not gonna be able to hold your own. Without conditioning... Well you get the idea.

jks9199 - The sayin "One perfected punch is superior to one thousand ineffectual flailings" is true but that is implying that the other person doesn't have good technique. Most martial artists I know do have good technique and they know how to use it too.... I don't know about others but I know in my case I train my techniques so i'm as good as I can be, then I train some more. Wouldn't an arsenal of well developed attacks be so much more effective than one perfect attacks?.. It's not only prisoners that know dirty attacks you know?

[MJS]

jks9199 - The sayin "One perfected punch is superior to one thousand ineffectual flailings" is true but that is implying that the other person doesn't have good technique. Most martial artists I know do have good technique and they know how to use it too.... I don't know about others but I know in my case I train my techniques so i'm as good as I can be, then I train some more. Wouldn't an arsenal of well developed attacks be so much more effective than one perfect attacks?.. It's not only prisoners that know dirty attacks you know?

Yes, you're making some good points here. I don't want to speak for jks9199, but as far as what I was saying goes, I'll expand a bit further. A MAist can have some fantastic technique, but alot is going to come down to how they train. Are their training sessions 'alive' and is there active resistance? One could have fantastic tech. in the air, but are they going to be able to pull off the same moves when someone is really trying to knock their head off?

I'm not saying this is how you're training, as I have never seen you train. If you're saying that you're training to degend against these types of attacks, then yes, I'd agree with what you're saying, however, I wouldn't put every MAist into the same group.

Mike

[kachi]

Not everything can be tested with a resisting partner...You can only really do resistance training with locks and grappling type techniques. Those that have a greater majority of striking techniques aren't going to be able to train resistance unless it's competition style, which almost always has rules and doesn't really reflect a real life situation.

I don't think you should start doubting martial arts that don't train in resistance. It doesn't mean they don't work. I'm not saying that it will work 100% of the time becuse that really depends on the person. Martial Arts were designed as a way of defending yourself practically in real life attack situations and that's what they do. The only real way to test your Martial Art's effectiveness is to be in a fight and that's one way I know that my MA works i've also heard many stories from members in our style about how they overcame attackers... and we don't use reistance training.

[MJS]

Not everything can be tested with a resisting partner...You can only really do resistance training with locks and grappling type techniques. Those that have a greater majority of striking techniques aren't going to be able to train resistance unless it's competition style, which almost always has rules and doesn't really reflect a real life situation.

Actually, I beg to differ. Resistance/aliveness can be trained with strikes as well. I'll give two examples. 1) When you're partner punches at you, is he stopping far enough away that you really don't even have to bock, or is he really trying to hit you? What good is the training going to be if the punch never reaches you? If that type of training is done all the time, its going to give a false impression, and you're going to be in for a rude awakening when someone on the street throws a punch and they're really trying to make contact.

2) After the punch is thrown, is the person standing there, like a statue, while you execute your counter moves? Or is he throwing more strikes, moving, etc.?

I was running thru some of my Kenpo techs. with my inst. last week, and we worked on this very same thing.


I don't think you should start doubting martial arts that don't train in resistance. It doesn't mean they don't work. I'm not saying that it will work 100% of the time becuse that really depends on the person. Martial Arts were designed as a way of defending yourself practically in real life attack situations and that's what they do. The only real way to test your Martial Art's effectiveness is to be in a fight and I've heard many stories from members in our style and that's how I know that it works... and we don't use reistance training.

Perhaps I'm not following you here. If you never experience resistance during training, whats going to happen when you need to use your skills to save your life and the person is giving resistance?? In addition, the use of protective gear and scenario drills will make a big difference in your training.

[CuongNhuka]

CuongNhuka - You say it's all about heart, but what good is the drive if you have don't have the proper skill to back it up?

Allow me to explain my point a little further. Lets say (hypotheticly) you're walking down the street and see some one getting beaten up by (say), four people. Heart is that thing that say's "this isn't right". Heart is that thing that says "if I don't do something, he'll die". Heart is that thing that drives you into the melee. Your right, though, both people in a fight want to win. If they didn't, they wouldn't be there. Simple as that.
But heart is somehting special. It's not just a desire to win. It rarely is. Heart is a desire to push on against unbeateable odds, just to show you can. If your fat and out of shape, but are dtermined to save that guy, heart is the thing that will allow that fat guy to win. Heart will push him to fight on, even when his lungs say enough and are breathing in smoke. Heart will push him to keep fighting when his heart is pumping battery acid (no pun intened). When his brain say "Enough! I cann't keep fighting! I cann't keep up! My bones are breaking! My muscles are shreding! Enough!"
His heart is what is saying "I cann't stop! I have to keep fighting! If I don't he will die! It is fight, or nothing!"
Without heart, nothing matters. You could have perfected 1,000 techniques, and you will lose with no heart. You could bench press your own body weight 300 times, squat 10 times your body weight 500 times, and run 80 miles in an hour. But with no heart, it doesn't matter. You could be both of those, but with no heart, it still doesn't matter. You will lose.

Anouther example is armys. Great commanders all realize something, it all has to do with heart. They would rather have an army of 100 against an army of 1,000. There army could be under feed, against a fat and happy force. There army could be under trained, aginst a highly trained one. And if the commander of the small force could motivate his troops to fight on, to have faith in him (and to have faith in each other) then they will win. A motivated force will win out aginst a force that is not as motivated, even if everything says the motivated force should lose.

Also, I said it starts and ends with heart. I already explained how it ends with heart. But it begins with heart too. You entered combat to save that guy, and the guys attacking him did it because of what is in there heart.

It does truelly begin and end with heart!

[jks9199]

jks9199 - The sayin "One perfected punch is superior to one thousand ineffectual flailings" is true but that is implying that the other person doesn't have good technique. Most martial artists I know do have good technique and they know how to use it too.... I don't know about others but I know in my case I train my techniques so i'm as good as I can be, then I train some more. Wouldn't an arsenal of well developed attacks be so much more effective than one perfect attacks?.. It's not only prisoners that know dirty attacks you know?

First -- you're taking my statement, and an adage I qouted, out of context. I was responding to the idea that a martial artist is typically going to be more skilled than a criminal, and know more. More doesn't mean better -- and assuming an enemy is unskilled is never a wise choice. That ex-con on the street (or the street thug he trained in their "clubhouse") may not know all the kicks of tae kwon do or the 40 or so throws of judo -- but what he does know, he very likely knows very well. And what he does know has the virtue of recent proof of real-life effectiveness; the stuff that didn't work well doesn't make it into the prison yard.

You ask if a wider arsenal doesn't grant some form of superiority over a limited arsenal. Have you ever watched a student with only a few months training defend himself effectively in a sparring match against senior students with a much wider arsenal? Have you ever watched an experienced and skilled martial artist freeze during sparring because they're stuck and just can't sort out their options in time? Under pressure, the mind will go blank. And if you have too many things to sort through -- it'll jam. We're seeing this more and more in law enforcement; the typical cop has so many things on his belt to use that he can get stuck trying to figure out which one to use in a given situation! (My full duty belt includes a firearm, an impact weapon, pepper spray, as well as empty hands. The common force continuum models currently recognize something like 9 different categories of force options, such as presence, verbal control, impact weapons, and lethal force; some cops actually have two or more options within a similar category.)

But to move beyond that, the simple truth is that very few people that call themselves martial artists are really prepared for the realities of hand-to-hand combat with someone that's really out to hurt them. With well over a decade of martial arts training, with a strong focus on reality, several encounters with fleeing suspects doing retail security, and a police academy behind me -- I still froze the first time I encountered a combative suspect in real life. And that was even though I'd fought, scrapped, "wrassled" and so on growing up, too, so being hurt or in a fight wasn't a new scenario for me. And despite reacting smoothly and without hesitation in training scenarios in the academy. I've seen others freeze, too, even with backgrounds that you'd think would prevent it from happening. So there's something different going on...

I'm not criticizing anyone's training or preparation when I say this. I'm simply stating a fact. It takes a significant shift in most people's mental processes to handle real violence directed at them. In the past, it was actually quite common to find that MOST soldiers on a battlefield didn't actually fire their weapons, and of those who did -- many did not fire at an opponent. (David Grossman, a retired US Army colonel, has been one of the pioneers of research into this; I highly recommend his work, especially On Killing.) And facing someone who has made that mental leap to harm another person is indescribably, ineffably, unbelievably different than it is to face someone in a ring, or in a sparring exercise, or even in pretty realistic training scenarios. I hope you've never been there -- and I hope you never are, because I don't want anyone to get hurt. And in that situation -- someone WILL almost inevitably get hurt; hopefully, your training has prepared you well enough to make sure that it's the other guy.

[jks9199]

Actually, I beg to differ. Resistance/aliveness can be trained with strikes as well. I'll give two examples. 1) When you're partner punches at you, is he stopping far enough away that you really don't even have to bock, or is he really trying to hit you? What good is the training going to be if the punch never reaches you? If that type of training is done all the time, its going to give a false impression, and you're going to be in for a rude awakening when someone on the street throws a punch and they're really trying to make contact.

2) After the punch is thrown, is the person standing there, like a statue, while you execute your counter moves? Or is he throwing more strikes, moving, etc.?

I was running thru some of my Kenpo techs. with my inst. last week, and we worked on this very same thing.


This came up in a different thread elsewhere on MT recently. (Under General Martial Arts Talk, the thread title is "A leasson well learnt...beginners learn as well")

If your goal is realistic defensive training, your partner has to (eventually) throw strikes, apply holds, or try to throw you in ways that will place you in danger of being hit, held or thrown. And in danger of being hurt when that happens. I qualify it with "eventually" because you don't start the first time you learn a new technique at full speed and power -- but after a few repitions, the speed, focus and intensity should be increasing. And the range should always be realistically close. I've seen way too many people pat themselves on the back for how well they do something in class, with a partner who moved slowly, and was never really in range to hit them or didn't really try to hold them.

[MJS]

This came up in a different thread elsewhere on MT recently. (Under General Martial Arts Talk, the thread title is "A leasson well learnt...beginners learn as well")

If your goal is realistic defensive training, your partner has to (eventually) throw strikes, apply holds, or try to throw you in ways that will place you in danger of being hit, held or thrown. And in danger of being hurt when that happens. I qualify it with "eventually" because you don't start the first time you learn a new technique at full speed and power -- but after a few repitions, the speed, focus and intensity should be increasing. And the range should always be realistically close. I've seen way too many people pat themselves on the back for how well they do something in class, with a partner who moved slowly, and was never really in range to hit them or didn't really try to hold them.

Agreed. My appologies if I gave the wrong impression. Many times, people will blaze thru a movement, but everything was done sloppy, with no quality in it. Starting off slow, working the fine points and gradually working your way up is a much better route. :)

Mike

[wade]

OK, look at my picture, yep, that's really me. Hi, I'm a biker and I've been in a couple very small altercations. I'm a very firm believer in peace and brother hood and turning the other cheek, OK, the last only if you are going into a spinning technique while doing it. I've given demonstrations on bike runs and worked with a few individuals and let me tell you they were very focused on what I was teaching. The tend to ask a lot of questions and are more than willing to go to the ground with you to see if a technique is really effective. If you are not willing to hurt them or be hurt by them the technique ain't gonna work cause they will fight you to the end. If you are gonna practice self defense make it hard fast and dirty, it's actually a lot of fun...................I gotta admit all the training I've had over the years makes it possible. It doesn't make me superman, but it does give me an edge.

[kachi]

I'll give two examples. 1) When you're partner punches at you, is he stopping far enough away that you really don't even have to bock, or is he really trying to hit you?

2) After the punch is thrown, is the person standing there, like a statue, while you execute your counter moves? Or is he throwing more strikes, moving, etc.?


OK, I didn't really understand what you meant by 'aliveness' training. I stand by my opinion though because I wouldn't consider those as resistance training. We always train in the first way you mentioned, I assumed everyone would (my bad), but the second one has never even crossed my mind before. Perhaps I'll have to talk to my sensei and give it a try.


Allow me to explain my point a little further. Lets say (hypotheticly) you're walking down the street and see some one getting beaten up by (say), four people. Heart is that thing that say's "this isn't right". Heart is that thing that says "if I don't do something, he'll die". Heart is that thing that drives you into the melee. Your right, though, both people in a fight want to win. If they didn't, they wouldn't be there. Simple as that.
But heart is somehting special. It's not just a desire to win. It rarely is. Heart is a desire to push on against unbeateable odds, just to show you can.

Ok, i'm glad you explained that further... I understand a bit more what your saying now, but I still think that no matter how much you want to win and push on, no matter how much you want to survive, you'll be bounded buy your physical limitations. You may be 'pushing on' but if you can't do anything usefull, what good is it?.. The chances are your just going to get beaten down by the person with the superior skills, drive and conditioning. I also don't think 'heart' is something you can train and develop, is it? It's just something your born with... And if this is the case and if "it's all about heart" than who ever naturally has more heart is going to come out on top regardless of size, skill, experience, condition, etc... yeah? I don't like the idea that a 20 year veteran of Martial Arts would loose to someone just because doesn't have heart.



Under pressure, the mind will go blank. And if you have too many things to sort through -- it'll jam.

I was under the impression that when the mind goes blank, that was due to the adrenaline rush caused by an overwhelment of fear. When your attacked you shouldn't stand there going through every technique you know, you just react (provided your don't freeze) through what you have been taught. Which comes back to MJS's statement about how you train.


That ex-con on the street (or the street thug he trained in their "clubhouse") may not know all the kicks of tae kwon do or the 40 or so throws of judo -- but what he does know, he very likely knows very well. And what he does know has the virtue of recent proof of real-life effectiveness.

But the Martial Artist does know the moves and they would know them very well, unless of course they're new to the Arts. Martial Arts have been tested in real-life situations and it works, you know that. I'm not saying that the prisoner is inneffective with his techniques but the Martial Artist will be effective as well and also have a wider variety of options.

I'll just point out that i'm open to ideas and opinions ad that this is just my opinion. I could be wrong and i'll accept it if I am.

[Drac]

OK, look at my picture, yep, that's really me. Hi, I'm a biker and I've been in a couple very small altercations

Now you can't laugh but I learn a whole lot about hold my temper and tounge when I was a "prospect"...It's helped me MANY times...Sorry off topic...

[MJS]

OK, I didn't really understand what you meant by 'aliveness' training. I stand by my opinion though because I wouldn't consider those as resistance training. We always train in the first way you mentioned, I assumed everyone would (my bad), but the second one has never even crossed my mind before. Perhaps I'll have to talk to my sensei and give it a try.

Just so I'm understanding you better, what is your definition of aliveness? When you say this:


We always train in the first way you mentioned, I assumed everyone would

I'm assuming that you're talking about throwing the strikes to make contact and not stop far enough so the defender doesn't even have to move?

[kachi]

Just so I'm understanding you better, what is your definition of aliveness? It's sort of hard to describe being that i've never really used the term... I get the general idea... how about you tell me your definition so I get a better idea. Thanks




I'm assuming that you're talking about throwing the strikes to make contact and not stop far enough so the defender doesn't even have to move? Yeah, if we don't move or deflect an attack we cop it in the mouth... It happens all the time to the begginers but they soon learn.

[MJS]

It's sort of hard to describe being that i've never really used the term... I get the general idea... how about you tell me your definition so I get a better idea. Thanks

Well, I think I gave some pretty good examples back in a post on page 2. Perhaps you can explain, using the term that you're familiar with. Aliveness and resistance can be added to all aspects of training. Once a technique is learned, progressive resistance should be added. If I'm working a wrist grab defense with someone, in the beginning, I left them perform the moves, and make corrections along the way. Gradually, once they're getting the feel of the technique, I'm not going to simply stand there, but instead, fight them a little. I may also start to pull or push them. By doing this, its making them adapt, its making them think. I'm not making it easy because if they need to use this tech. to save their life, I don't want them to think, "Gee, it worked in the dojo, why isnt it working now?"

This link (http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html) will give you a better idea as well.

[jks9199]

I was under the impression that when the mind goes blank, that was due to the adrenaline rush caused by an overwhelment of fear. When your attacked you shouldn't stand there going through every technique you know, you just react (provided your don't freeze) through what you have been taught. Which comes back to MJS's statement about how you train.


There are many factors that figure into the effects of pressure on the mind. Parasympathetic nervous arousal is one of them -- but not the only one, and fear is only part of that arousal. Look at this another way; have you ever heard of someone staring into a closet full of clothes only to say "I've got nothing to wear" or staring at a pantry full of food, but unable to find anything to eat? Even once you get past initial responses of fight/flight/freeze, there can be so many things running through your mind that you jam up on which to do.


But the Martial Artist does know the moves and they would know them very well, unless of course they're new to the Arts. Martial Arts have been tested in real-life situations and it works, you know that. I'm not saying that the prisoner is inneffective with his techniques but the Martial Artist will be effective as well and also have a wider variety of options.

I'll just point out that i'm open to ideas and opinions ad that this is just my opinion. I could be wrong and i'll accept it if I am.

You're still stuck on the idea of quantity and assuming that more is better. Quantity is not always better, or there would be no need for military special forces or spy agencies. We'd just dump hundreds of thousands of soldiers into every attack. Quantity isn't better, or we'd be teaching recruits in police academies hundreds of defensive tactics techniques, instead of around 15, maybe less. (I'm not suggesting that more is never better!) Martial arts hobbyists may know and learn literally thousands of techniques as they train; realistically, they're only practicing a few dozen, perhaps. Judo was condensed from hundreds of jujutsu techniques, and judo has been proven time and time again to be a very effective self-defense tool.

Instead, I'm focusing on the simple fact that the ex-con has probably used that technique for real before, that he may have trained it every bit as much and as intently as the martial artist did -- or even more so, and that he hasn't been distracted by learning 9 other approaches to the problem, so he's studied that one much more thoroughly.

[CuongNhuka]

Ok, i'm glad you explained that further... I understand a bit more what your saying now, but I still think that no matter how much you want to win and push on, no matter how much you want to survive, you'll be bounded buy your physical limitations. You may be 'pushing on' but if you can't do anything usefull, what good is it?.. The chances are your just going to get beaten down by the person with the superior skills, drive and conditioning. I also don't think 'heart' is something you can train and develop, is it? It's just something your born with... And if this is the case and if "it's all about heart" than who ever naturally has more heart is going to come out on top regardless of size, skill, experience, condition, etc... yeah? I don't like the idea that a 20 year veteran of Martial Arts would loose to someone just because doesn't have heart.


In my post I also put that if you have "no heart". If it comes down to people who both have heart, then it is who ever has better conditioning and has better technique. But I think you're starting to get what I mean.

[wade]

Drac, I understand very well what you mean. In my case it was really really hard and did cause a few problems cause when I moved here in 77 I was already 3rd Dan and not real willing to take orders from people. Uh, they were all worked to my satisfaction though. In fact, my chapter, I'm the president now, are going on a little Polar Bear run tomorrow here in the frozen NW. Ride safe and have a good New Year.

[Drac]

Drac, I understand very well what you mean. I'm the president now, are going on a little Polar Bear run tomorrow here in the frozen NW. Ride safe and have a good New Year.

Excellent..If the battery on my "Electra-Couch" hadn't died I'd be out now instead of sitting here..Have a great run and a great New Year..

[wade]

Well Drac, just got home, pulled off the soaking wet leathers, and have decided to call it a day. The wife and I left home in St. Helen's at 0730,
it was 40 degrees and cloudy. By the we hit the Cornelius Pass 20 miles away it was raining hard and we were starting to get hailed on so we decided to bag it, we were still about 20 miles from the run site. By the time we got back home it was 30 degrees and there was hail mixed with heavy rain and we were totally soaked. Next year I think I'll just drive the truck. Ah, hot coffee and a good web site to visit is very nice way to spend this day.... Happy New Year to all...................................

[TonyMac]

Vermont decided to end weight training for residents of it's correctional system when two yahoos loaded almost all the plates on one bar and ran throught a block wall with it to escape.

A howdy to Wade in St. Helens. I lived about a mile up Canaan Rd. In Deer Island for a while when I ETSed from the Rangers on Ft. Lewis.

[wade]

Yo Tony, myself, class 501-71, Rangers do lead the way, eh? Where you at now?

[kachi]

There are many factors that figure into the effects of pressure on the mind. Parasympathetic nervous arousal is one of them -- but not the only one, and fear is only part of that arousal. Look at this another way; have you ever heard of someone staring into a closet full of clothes only to say "I've got nothing to wear" or staring at a pantry full of food, but unable to find anything to eat? Even once you get past initial responses of fight/flight/freeze, there can be so many things running through your mind that you jam up on which to do.
Ok, i wouldn't compare selecting an item of clothing to a life and death fight against an ex-con... but never the less, I see your point. In my experiences I haven't really thought about how to react to an attack during a fight, i've just reacted automatically and it's worked. I don't know if it's like that for everyone but that's just what happens with me.



You're still stuck on the idea of quantity and assuming that more is better. Quantity is not always better, or there would be no need for military special forces or spy agencies. We'd just dump hundreds of thousands of soldiers into every attack. Quantity isn't better, or we'd be teaching recruits in police academies hundreds of defensive tactics techniques, instead of around 15, maybe less. (I'm not suggesting that more is never better!) Martial arts hobbyists may know and learn literally thousands of techniques as they train; realistically, they're only practicing a few dozen, perhaps. Judo was condensed from hundreds of jujutsu techniques, and judo has been proven time and time again to be a very effective self-defense tool.

Instead, I'm focusing on the simple fact that the ex-con has probably used that technique for real before, that he may have trained it every bit as much and as intently as the martial artist did -- or even more so, and that he hasn't been distracted by learning 9 other approaches to the problem, so he's studied that one much more thoroughly.

I wasn't talking about everything in general though, like armies and spy agencies, it's like comparing apples to oranges. I'm simply talking about having the opportunity to react in 7 several different ways rather than just one. You say it's a distraction but I believe it's an advantage to have the options to react to each situation differently.


Well, I think I gave some pretty good examples back in a post on page 2. Perhaps you can explain, using the term that you're familiar with. Aliveness and resistance can be added to all aspects of training. Once a technique is learned, progressive resistance should be added. If I'm working a wrist grab defense with someone, in the beginning, I left them perform the moves, and make corrections along the way. Gradually, once they're getting the feel of the technique, I'm not going to simply stand there, but instead, fight them a little. I may also start to pull or push them. By doing this, its making them adapt, its making them think. I'm not making it easy because if they need to use this tech. to save their life, I don't want them to think, "Gee, it worked in the dojo, why isnt it working now?"

This link (http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html) will give you a better idea as well.

The link didn't help too much much, confused me more than anything, but then again I didn't read the whole thing.
I guess my definition of aliveness training is to just stay away from the set patterns and form work that you sort of start off in doing in defence work as a new white belt. It becomes more realistic in the sense that the attacker is moving around a bit more or might come in with a follow up if the defender isn't quick enough. That's my understanding, but I could be wrong.

[MJS]

The link didn't help too much much, confused me more than anything, but then again I didn't read the whole thing.
I guess my definition of aliveness training is to just stay away from the set patterns and form work that you sort of start off in doing in defence work as a new white belt. It becomes more realistic in the sense that the attacker is moving around a bit more or might come in with a follow up if the defender isn't quick enough. That's my understanding, but I could be wrong.

My appologies. I should've taken a portion from the article, as that would've given a better example. Taken from the article:


Aliveness is timing, energy, and motion.
What do you mean by timing, energy, & motion?
For something to be truly alive in what we do then it has have three key elements, movement, timing, and energy (resistance). If you are missing any one of these then it is not Alive.
Movement means real footwork, not contrived, not in a pattern... on the ground it means exactly that also... movement... if the person is just laying there, not moving as you apply your lock or move....that is not Alive. In the clinch its the same... pushing, pulling, moving.
Timing is of course just that... if its in a predictable rhythm, a pattern, a repeatable series of sets, then you are not acquiring or developing timing, just motion speed.
And of course energy... swing the stick like someone would really swing it... don't stop at centerline. Punch with the energy of someone who wants to hit you. Not locking your arm out so your partner can look good doing the destruction, or trap, or silat sweep, etc.
You must move, have a sense of timing, and progressive resistance.

We're pretty much on the same page here, but anytime we type something, the chance for confusion is there, considering there is nothing to actually view. Looking at this small clip, you should be able to see exactly what I was talking about in my posts. Remember what I said about someone just standing there after they punch? Matt is making a reference to that same thing when he talks about movement. Same thing in the last paragraph when he talks about energy. Back to the punching...is the opponent stopping that punch or really trying to hit you? Above, Matt is making reference to swinging a stick. Same thing.

Patterns are not a bad thing. IMO, they're the foundation for the student to build off of. Just like a technique. A SD tech. should be used as a base to expand your defense. In BJJ, my inst. has us train a pin flow series, moving from one position to the next. The person on the bottom is basically just laying there. As we transition from one position to the next, we pause and the bottom guy checks to see how good our position is, then we move to the next. Looking at this, we could take it as a dead pattern, but in actuality, it isn't. We're training something specific. Once we begin to free roll, we can still work position, the only difference is now the bottom guy is going to be more active, rather than just laying there.

I hope that this made sense. :) If you have questions, please ask. :)

Mike

[kroh]

What are some of the steps that martial arts school owners (and private clubs) can take to prevent violent repeaters (as opposed to convicted criminals who have been released and are trying to straighten out) from taking classes which they might disseminate to other criminals?

The example of the banger who became a Marine to learn combatives and tactics is terrifying! It does, however, give us a clearer picture of the evolving criminality in this country.

The other thing that scares me is the schools that teach the fluffy stuff and try to make the student feel invincable. Are these schools preparing their students for the worst possible scenarios? Are they telling their students that what they are doing might get them out of a "light mugging" but not out of a violent assault? Could honesty lead to a drop in "retention" that might lead some schools not to let the cat out of the bag?

What can martial artists do to help with this? Can we write to a senator or possibly check the penal laws in our own state? We have enough problems to worry about from outside our own country to have to deal with the cancers within it...

Regards,
Walt

[MJS]

What are some of the steps that martial arts school owners (and private clubs) can take to prevent violent repeaters (as opposed to convicted criminals who have been released and are trying to straighten out) from taking classes which they might disseminate to other criminals?

The example of the banger who became a Marine to learn combatives and tactics is terrifying! It does, however, give us a clearer picture of the evolving criminality in this country.

The only thing I could think of would be a background check. Of course, the question is, are people going to take those extra steps?


The other thing that scares me is the schools that teach the fluffy stuff and try to make the student feel invincable. Are these schools preparing their students for the worst possible scenarios? Are they telling their students that what they are doing might get them out of a "light mugging" but not out of a violent assault? Could honesty lead to a drop in "retention" that might lead some schools not to let the cat out of the bag?

Sad but true. Many times people actually think that what they're teaching is effective, when in reality it works in the comfort of the dojo, but will most likely result in serious injury or death if attempted under pressure.

Mike

[Andrew Green]

Sad but true. Many times people actually think that what they're teaching is effective, when in reality it works in the comfort of the dojo, but will most likely result in serious injury or death if attempted under pressure.

And people buy those crappy ab machines off infomercials as well.

Telling people they can only get the result they want with a lot of hard work doesn't go well. Tell them they will look like a super hero and be invincible in 5 minuts a day is where the money is at.

[jks9199]

Ok, i wouldn't compare selecting an item of clothing to a life and death fight against an ex-con... but never the less, I see your point. In my experiences I haven't really thought about how to react to an attack during a fight, i've just reacted automatically and it's worked. I don't know if it's like that for everyone but that's just what happens with me.




I wasn't talking about everything in general though, like armies and spy agencies, it's like comparing apples to oranges. I'm simply talking about having the opportunity to react in 7 several different ways rather than just one. You say it's a distraction but I believe it's an advantage to have the options to react to each situation differently.


They were both analogies; analogies are never a perfect fit, but they can serve to illustrate a point.

You say that every time you've been in a fight, you've reacted automatically. It may be that you're fortunate to have a very good instructor and to have trained well. But, I've got to ask -- how many times have you been in a fight with someone who is really going to hurt or kill you? There's a vastly different energy, and there are really no words to describe the feel of that intention. Dumping any and all esoteric "sixth sense" crap -- I think everyone can agree that most people can feel other people's emotions. I'm sure most people have been in a room with someone who is so happy that they lift up everyone's spirits -- or so depressed that they sap your energy. All I'm saying is that there is something like that which you can feel from someone who is REALLY going to hurt you. (And, yes, it does sometimes happen in a ring -- but it's very rare there.)

Nor am I saying that having more ways to react is inherently a bad thing. But it's not inherently a good thing, either. It's just a thing... But, when you spend too much time learning alternate ways of doing something, you sacrifice time spent really learning one of them. Personally --the system I train in doesn't have thousands of techniques, and it's not taught as a "list of techniques" similar to an entree menu at a restaurant. We have a list of basic techniques which are we can learn to combine, kind of like ordering a la carte. So, since there are only 9 punches -- I've had plenty of time to learn them well, right? Yet I still fall back on only a few of them under pressure!

[kroh]

And people buy those crappy ab machines off infomercials as well.

Telling people they can only get the result they want with a lot of hard work doesn't go well. Tell them they will look like a super hero and be invincible in 5 minuts a day is where the money is at.

That is truely sad. Oh well, I guess the HMO's will be kept busy...

Do not click this unless you have a strong stomach
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n18/kroh01/knife_danger_3_small.jpg

Regards,
Walt

[Ceicei]

That is truely sad. Oh well, I guess the HMO's will be kept busy...

Do not click this unless you have a strong stomach
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n18/kroh01/knife_danger_3_small.jpg

Regards,
Walt

I believe that picture was from a prison knife fight (guard vs. prisoner). What does that have to do with the ab machines?

- Ceicei

[kroh]

I believe that picture was from a prison knife fight (guard vs. prisoner). What does that have to do with the ab machines?

- Ceicei

You are correct about the picture. It is really an unapplogetic look at the damage that a knife can cause. This, also being taken while trying to gain control of a bad situation, is evidence that even trained professionals can have a bad day. I know that many martial arts schools are in good neighborhoods where people only have to watch out for the judge seeing what points are called where. But these schools should be up front and tell you that violent criminals are not going to be taken by a back-two-knuckle to the top of the head.

AS for the ab roller... it is just like Andrew insinuated... People are always looking for a short cut instead of training. As for people who just want the evening get away for a hobby, Some of them will get good and some of them will be like the ones who put minimal time on the ab-roller...

...for those who truely are honest about using it...it (and the six-pack) is evidence of their achievements, for those that don't, their pot belly is evidence that it is not being used. Just like MA training. It might look good in the lab (studio or whatever) but in the practice it has to work. I think subjects like prisoners and gangs training in martial arts and military tactics should be a sobering thing for anyone who has anyone they care about. People can be a victim of violence anywhere and and the more informed people are the better.

I would just like to see instructors who claim to teach people how to defend themselves teach honestly. But then again this is all an opinion and is subject to relativity.

Our main focus should be what can we do as a community to deal with something like this before it becomes a more common problem...

...or are we just a batch of people who come on a message board to see ourselves type?

Regards,
Walt

[Carol]

I heard some conflicting information...that the fight was between two prisoners and the damage was caused by a razor blade.

The wounds are definitely slashes...not the type of wound, or motion, that is typically seen with a single or double-edged blade.

Can anyone confirm?

[jks9199]

I heard some conflicting information...that the fight was between two prisoners and the damage was caused by a razor blade.

The wounds are definitely slashes...not the type of wound, or motion, that is typically seen with a single or double-edged blade.

Can anyone confirm?

That set of pictures has been circulating for at least a year now. I've never seen much explanation of them, other than something that amounts to "this is what a knife can do!" Snopes.com debunks one explanation (that they're of an USAF airman in South Korea), but doesn't go beyond that.

I've heard that they're pictures from a prison knife fight, but haven't seen any documentation of that.

That said -- the pics are real. And they point out that knives are deadly serious business!

[kachi]

They were both analogies; analogies are never a perfect fit, but they can serve to illustrate a point.

You say that every time you've been in a fight, you've reacted automatically. It may be that you're fortunate to have a very good instructor and to have trained well. But, I've got to ask -- how many times have you been in a fight with someone who is really going to hurt or kill you? There's a vastly different energy, and there are really no words to describe the feel of that intention. Dumping any and all esoteric "sixth sense" crap -- I think everyone can agree that most people can feel other people's emotions. I'm sure most people have been in a room with someone who is so happy that they lift up everyone's spirits -- or so depressed that they sap your energy. All I'm saying is that there is something like that which you can feel from someone who is REALLY going to hurt you. (And, yes, it does sometimes happen in a ring -- but it's very rare there.)

Nor am I saying that having more ways to react is inherently a bad thing. But it's not inherently a good thing, either. It's just a thing... But, when you spend too much time learning alternate ways of doing something, you sacrifice time spent really learning one of them. Personally --the system I train in doesn't have thousands of techniques, and it's not taught as a "list of techniques" similar to an entree menu at a restaurant. We have a list of basic techniques which are we can learn to combine, kind of like ordering a la carte. So, since there are only 9 punches -- I've had plenty of time to learn them well, right? Yet I still fall back on only a few of them under pressure!

I've only been a life and death fight once, the guy was on drugs and really pissed off. I've never seen anyone so screwed up, absolutely psycho. And your right, it brings a whole different feeling to the situation. Where you don't know if you'll make it out alive to see your friends and family again, scary suff. The other fights i've been in weren't quite as serious but they would have done some serious damaged if they had the chance.

My system doesn't use a whole lot of techniques either, sounds much like yours, except Bando and Karate are completely different, I assume.
Patterns are not a bad thing. IMO, they're the foundation for the student to build off of. Just like a technique. A SD tech. should be used as a base to expand your defense. In BJJ, my inst. has us train a pin flow series, moving from one position to the next. The person on the bottom is basically just laying there. As we transition from one position to the next, we pause and the bottom guy checks to see how good our position is, then we move to the next. Looking at this, we could take it as a dead pattern, but in actuality, it isn't. We're training something specific. Once we begin to free roll, we can still work position, the only difference is now the bottom guy is going to be more active, rather than just laying there.

I hope that this made sense. :) If you have questions, please ask. :)

Mike

I agree with you 100% on this statement. Patterns are an excellent way for students to learn how a technique should be performed and then as they progress adding more resistance and 'aliveness' brings a realistic view point to their training, that's how we do it anyway.

[KenpoTex]

I heard some conflicting information...that the fight was between two prisoners and the damage was caused by a razor blade.

The wounds are definitely slashes...not the type of wound, or motion, that is typically seen with a single or double-edged blade.

Can anyone confirm?The version I heard was that the guy in the pics was/is a LEO who was involved in a fight/attack "on the street."
Who knows...

I do agree that the wounds look consistent with something like a box-cutter or razor-blade.