Knuckles down, or to the inside (i.e., without turning your wrist over from your stance)?

I've seen arguments both for and against... what do you think?

Inside, unless knuckles down gives me a better chance of getting through his guard.

Inside.

Knuckles down actually taken from Western Boxing. What do you make final contact with using the knuckles to the side?

His head.

I'm a top-two knuckles guy, but it doesn't matter as much with boxing gloves. I hit with the verticle fist because that's the way I hit. If I'm turning my fist, it's because of obstacles or I twist my fist after impact.

I'll talk briefly about the boxing perspective, since it's been mentioned and because I know that's one of Jonathan's interests.

Jack Dempsey always said to use a verticle fist for both the lead and cross. But then his style was heavily influenced by bareknuckles boxing and the fighters and equipment of the day. You'll also see a lot of footage of Ali throwing verticle punches. There's definitely styles of western boxing that feature the verticle fist.

However, the horizontal jab is much more common. One of the advantages is that you can use your shoulder to guard when throwing this type of jab. With a verticle fist you're going to be a lot more open to countering hooks. Also, many people find retracting to guard to be faster with the palm-down jab.

Once again, terminology has me confused. When I think knuckles inside, I mean the fingers are perpendicular to the ground. When I think of knuckles down, I think of what we call an "over twisting" punch, where the knuckles end up parallel to the ground after an extra 90 degree rotation of the wrist. Reverse hand punch does not twist, with the palm being face up on impact and the knuckles perpendicular to the ground. Side fist has a 90 degree rotation from set, with the knuckles ending up parallel to the ground. Use depends on application, with the main goal being to strike the target with the large knuckles of the first and second finger, as opposed to the knuckles of the last two fingers, which, because of size, can break much more easily.

There, clear as mud...:wink:

Huh. I'd like to see how you throw that reverse hand. Only time my palm comes up is for an uppercut, and to be honest unless it's a boxing match I've switched to other tools before that one comes out.

Huh. I'd like to see how you throw that reverse hand. Only time my palm comes up is for an uppercut, and to be honest unless it's a boxing match I've switched to other tools before that one comes out.

Reverse hand is for an uppercut but it can also goes to the solar plexus. Another target is the temple, after sidestepping and parrying a punch.

Usaually one at a time http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

I've thrown jabs both ways; if I'm focusing on boxing only, it would depend on my intent. The vertical fist (knuckles inside, unturned) is, to me, a little snappier; I'm likely to use it to lead to something else. The turned, horizontal fist feels like it's got more OOMPH, so if I'm throwing a jab by itself, it's likely to turn.

Of course -- I think most of the time, I just throw 'em, and don't think about it!

For countering hooks, footwork and positioning is my key. I don't like giving the other guy any chance to step to the outside of my forehand. If he's circling that way a lot, I'll switch stances. I usually jab with the right, and I'm right handed.

For retraction speed, again it's just not something I'm interested in. Gloved up, I want my jab in the other guy's face. Without a glove, I'm going to want to use the tool that's already within his space. If the jab hand is back to guard, it's because I've moved forward to meet my hand or because he's moved away and it's come home because there's no more good it can do way out there.

I also don't want my shoulder pulled up to guard because of the way I generate power. Instead of providing power with my shoulder, I'm more concerned about leaking power from my shoulder and sustaining impact trauma. Thus, I want to keep my shoulder packed tightly in the socket. And everybody should keep their elbos tight.

Finally, I believe the verticle fist is a little harder to see coming, since it travels up the centerline.

I've thrown jabs both ways; if I'm focusing on boxing only, it would depend on my intent. The vertical fist (knuckles inside, unturned) is, to me, a little snappier; I'm likely to use it to lead to something else. The turned, horizontal fist feels like it's got more OOMPH, so if I'm throwing a jab by itself, it's likely to turn.

Of course -- I think most of the time, I just throw 'em, and don't think about it!

Same here, I just let them happen, there's always a turn, just sometimes not as much as others.

Well actually this has a big impact on the JKD straight blast / 2 inch punch.

I don't know if I can describe it correctly for anyone to understand why it impacts it.

When the knuckles are straight up and down the elbow bends up for guard. When the knuckles are left to right the elbow bends inwards.

So for Strike -> Eblow -> Cynch the optimum solution would be to have your knuckles left to right.

For Strike -> Guard -> Strike the optimum solution would be the virticle / up and down knuckled jab.

I use a boxing style jab wih the fist in a horizontal orientation at the point of contact. At the point of contact I start my retraction. My reasoning behind "rolling" my fist over is to utilize my tricep strength. I keep my elbow down and in through the full extension and during retraction. This allows for all of the forc'e to be directed forward into the target and not wasted by deflecting angles. I try to retract at double the speed I send it out to allow for as much transfer of energy as possible. I use this style of jab whether it is in the boxing ring or kickboxing ring or even on the street. It has proven very effective and leads to very little questioning about training history(if used in a street fight). My hands always start at my cheeks and they always return to my cheeks. If I am in a position where I cannot use this style of jab will switch to another hand technique. I picked up the use of vertical fist techniques from and Isshin-ryu instructor, but I have not/will not replace my standard jab with this technique.

Down but not all the way down. The natural, comfortable angle for me is 10-15 degrees off horizontal.

Pretty much knuckles down (horizontal), no twisting.

The no twisting is really the thing IMO. It all depends on where the rest of your arm is. With a shoulder to cheek type of position, more of a western style protecting the jaw line while you punch, the hand will naturally end up pretty horizontal. Not quite, but close. Don't try to put a angle on it that seems unnatural, it probably is, and probably will end up hurting.

From a more "traditional" type of posture. Head up, back straight, punch from the hip, it will naturally end up more vertical, not quite, maybe a 30' angle or so.

Vertical fist if I have room to do a trigger step and horizontal if in close using a shoulder whirl for power....all ala Dempsey. And after Dempsey I call it a jolt rather than a jab. Dempsey said if you are going to throw your hand out make it count....I couldn't agree with this more.

Nice thread. There are a couple of things that got my attention and I would like to simply state a couple of points for thought:

1. The jab can be and should be a knock out punch when thrown properly.

2. Power in punching should always be developed from the hips. Whether you are punching, throwing or using weapons your power is generated from your nipples to your knees. Even casting punches though shoulder generated get their power from your hips. Watch good ground strikers in MMA. The good ones always position themselves so that they can employ hip movement in ground and pounding.

3. the JKD straight blast (Chit chun choy) is not a jab. It is a disorienting series of punches again developed from the hip designed to cause the opponent to cover up, turn away and allow you to penetrate his defense.

In real world self defense an open palm strike either straight or 'hooked' can be as or more devastating than a closed fist with less chance of breaking your hand or fingers. It also allows for you to naturally grab your opponent for clinch, take down,or throw depending on your training.

JMHO after 28 years of training. People tend to do better with what ever they are most comfortable with though. Experimentation is the key to growth. An open mind is the way to truth.

1. The jab can be and should be a knock out punch when thrown properly.


Can - Yes
Should - On occasion

Jabbing is very often meant to do something other then inflict damage, often it is thrown with little intent that the jab actually lands.

If you throw every jab as if it was a power punch you won't last long against a experienced fighter.

With a salad, nice Chianti and some Fava beans hehehehehehehe

I assume you are talking about using the jab in the ring. Street fights don't usually last long or stay on the feet much anyway.
When I was a younger man and training with my boxing coach we were conditioned by him with a punch specific weight program that resulted in our being able to throw full power jabs with a 3lb weight in our hands for 36 minutes non- stop. He believed the jab was underrated, underutilized and underpowered; hence the training. When you can jab like that it doesn't matter what your intent is, feeling him out, distracting him, or knocking him out it is powerful and available to be used at your discretion. It becomes fast and powerful.

In Modern boxing the power is definitely related to the hips but it was not always the case...the falling step was used in the past for incredibly powerful straight punches from the lead and rear hand.

Let's see what Jack Dempsey had to say concerning the jab and whether you should throw it as a powerpunch or not:

“I use the expression “left jolt” instead of “left jab” because I don’t want you to confuse the type of straight left you will throw, with the futile straight left or “jab” used by most current amateur and professional boxers. Most of them couldn’t knock you hat off with their left jabs. With their lefts, the tap, they slap, they flick, they paw, and they “paint”. Their jabs are used more to confuse than to stun. Their jabs are used as shuttering defensive flags to prevent their poorly instructed opponents from “getting set to punch”. A good fighter doesn’t have to “get set” He’s always ready to punch. Some of them use their jabs merely to make an opening for their rights. And that’s dangerously silly, for the proper brand of feinting would accomplish the same purpose. With but a few exceptions, they “do not use the left jab as a smashing jolt that can be an explosive weapon by itself” - that can knock you down or knock you out”
“There are two reasons why the left jolt is a rarity in fighting today. First, nearly all current boxers launch their jabs with the non-step shoulder whirl. Secondly, nearly all have been fed the defensive hokum that it’s less dangerous to try to tap an opponent with the left than to try to knock him down with the left.
“Concerning that defensive hokum, let me say this: Any time you extend your left fist either for a tap or for an all-out punch, you’re taking a gamble on being nailed with a counter punch. And the sap who uses “light stuff” - tapping, flicking, etc, - has his left hand extended much more often than the explosive left-jolter, who doesn’t waste punches - doesn’t shoot until he has feinted or forced his opponent into an opening. It’s true that you can “recover” your balance more quickly after missing a tap than after missing a hard punch. But it’s also true that an opponent who is defending only against taps and slaps will be much more alert to counter than an opponent who is being “bombed”
“My advice to all beginners is this: Use a light jab only in one instance - in the so-called one two punch - when your left fist strikes the opponent’s forehead to tip his head back, so that your immediately following straight right can nail him one the chin."

I have been hearing two camps of that lately, and figured I'd throw it out here. Considering striking surface of the jab, or any of the punches, Firts two knuckles, or last three?

Considering your other hand, guarding the chin, or open hand by the face, upon launching the punch?

3. the JKD straight blast (Chit chun choy) is not a jab. It is a disorienting series of punches again developed from the hip designed to cause the opponent to cover up, turn away and allow you to penetrate his defense.

I'm going to have too disagree with this one here. The JKD Straight blast is generated from the hips like Chinese Boxing but it is not designed to disorient.

I have a Black Belt Magazine with a good article on the straight blast I'll see if I can find it and give you the issue.

I have been hearing two camps of that lately, and figured I'd throw it out here. Considering striking surface of the jab, or any of the punches, Firts two knuckles, or last three?

Considering your other hand, guarding the chin, or open hand by the face, upon launching the punch?


Any takers?

I am firmly in the last three camp:)

Weight on the back foot if possible, fist at 45 degrees and strike with the 2 big knuckles.

Knuckles - Like I said, first two, and it's obvious if you look at my hands.

Guard hand - depends a lot on range and other environmental / rules factors. Different combat sports, and styles within combat sport, each evolve their own stance and movement patterns because it works best for their environment. Change the rules of engagement and your whole strategy has to shift. Your tactics should constantly adapt and innovate.

However, I tend to like a high and tight guard when a jab is the first in a moving in combo, and a lower back hand when I'm walking the guy into jabs. I also know I do this, and won't let you exploit a pattern.

On the street, my back hand could be anywhere and is probably picking up a weapon or already concealing one.

I've thrown jabs both ways.... The vertical fist (knuckles inside, unturned) is, to me, a little snappier.

Never even thought of this, but now it makes a lot of sense. Could explain why my (horizontal) jab has always seemed slow (to me, anyway:)).

The turned, horizontal fist feels like it's got more OOMPH, so if I'm throwing a jab by itself, it's likely to turn.

Good point. I just learned something from all of you. Thanks!

I assume you are talking about using the jab in the ring. Street fights don't usually last long or stay on the feet much anyway.
When I was a younger man and training with my boxing coach we were conditioned by him with a punch specific weight program that resulted in our being able to throw full power jabs with a 3lb weight in our hands for 36 minutes non- stop. He believed the jab was underrated, underutilized and underpowered; hence the training. When you can jab like that it doesn't matter what your intent is, feeling him out, distracting him, or knocking him out it is powerful and available to be used at your discretion. It becomes fast and powerful.

Interesting take. I had an old school boxing coach, too (had been a top-10 ranked middleweight in his day), and he preached the jab constantly. Didn't focus on power training like yours, but still expected it to move the guy's head around, mostly as a strategic setup for left hook or right cross later.

Any takers?


I am in the first two camp. The drawback isthe risk of seperating your knuckles and it has happened. The plus is better bone alingment between the radius and ulna with the bones of the hand. It helps reduce the risk of lateral hyper-adduction or lateral hyper-abduction of the wrist.


The big drawback of the three knuckle camp is the high risk of breaking the metacarpal of your pinky finger. I had a girl do this and it took forever to heal up right.


I have recently decided that I m going to start to train so I can be of a new camp. I will start punching so hard that my whole hand penetrates into the body, effectively killing my opponent and sparring partners.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Boxer style, knuckles down, chin tucked to the shoulder.

Any one for this question, that I asked previously?





Considering your other hand, guarding the chin, or open hand by the face, upon launching the punch?

Any one for this question, that I asked previously?





Considering your other hand, guarding the chin, or open hand by the face, upon launching the punch?


Thumb by the cheek bone, hand closed into a fist, palm side of hand pressed tightly to the face, top of fist halfway down from the line of sight(half a centimeter or so).

Thumb by the cheek bone, hand closed into a fist, palm side of hand pressed tightly to the face, top of fist halfway down from the line of sight(half a centimeter or so).

That's how I do it. :)