Gun or Knife?

[Les]

Here's a simple question.

Assuming you couldn't avoid the confrontation, would you rather face an assailant armed with a gun or with a knife?

Which weapon do you consider the most dangerous?

Please give your reasons as well.

Les

[SingingTiger]

If the possibility of increasing distance exists (which isn't clear when discussing a conflict that is only described as "unavoidable"), I'd take the knife every time. Both weapons are lethal at close range, but if I can increase the distance between myself and a knife I gain the advantage (since experts at knife-throwing are a rare breed), whereas if I increase the distance between myself and a gun my opponent gains the advantage. Whether or not I would choose to increase the distance would, of course, be dictated by environment, but the mere fact that doing so would be advantageous for a knife attack and disadvantageous for a gun attack leads me to a preference for a knife attack, all other things being equal.

Rich

[Brother John]

I'd rather face a knife than a gun.
The reason?
Survival statistics.
More people survive knife attacks than those that survive gun attacks.
I'd rather not have to do either, but if I get to pick...knife.
UNLESS youre talking about Mr. Mills being the weilder. THEN I think I'd die either way and would prefer his speed drawing skills to put me out QUICK!!!
:(
OK, now I'm depressed...

:wah:
gonna go hug my kids.
Your Brother
John

[Yari]

The gun, if it's not loaded :rofl:

No really. It would have to be the knife. Trying to control a gun, that can go off, and shoot yourself or somebody nearby ( a loved one maybe?) is hard.

The knife I think I stand a chance to control, and as said before if the possibility to keep distance is there that's in favour of defending against a knife.

Why would you want an answer on this question?

/Yari

[molson]

Knife.. most people can be effective with a gun even with out alot of practice. Not everyone with a knife knows how to use it with effectiveness. I been to some knife seminars and realized that using a knife can be skilled.

[True2Kenpo]

I believe Rich brought up the key idea that would make or break my decision, distance.

If I was able to create reasonable distance between myself and my attacker, I think I would rather have them weild a knife. An attacker holding a gun at a good distance can really not be defended.

If the attacker was right on me I am not sure what weapon I would prefer... neither! :)

Making that final decision to react would have to be a matter of life or death.

Great question.

Respectfully In Kenpo,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh

www.unitedparkerskenpo.com

[Sigung86]

My first thought on this question is that ... facing either one, I would have an overwhelming need to run! Run hard, run fast, and run serpentine. For the "most part", both weapons are ineffective in the hands of the average person with distances greater than 12 feet.

Having faced a live blade, and having lost a piece of finger, even though I successfully pulled it off ... I have to say that there are too many factors in my mind to stand here and say that I would rather face one over the other. Terrain comes to mind, space to move in. What do I have on my person that I can use as an equalizer. Are there other people in the way... Does the attacker appear to be skilled or just a bozo with a blade.

The man I faced was quite skilled, and it was a friendly encounter... Rehearsed and planned for a demonstration. We had done the moves a thousand times together. We got a little sloppy, because we had done it that thousand times. We didn't check the terrain... A wrestling ring. Lots of bounce there! We didn't think of safety, we were confident. We used a Rambo III to be showy ... I went for his wrist, we bounced, my hand staid pretty much where it was. He came down and took off the tip of my right third finger almost back to the first joint.

Even injured, we took it to the end, but my wife knew something had gone wrong. She said that it went from demo speed to "live".
I finished the technique, and came to a "conscious state" just soon enough to keep from driving my injured fist directly into his heart at full force. He was still glassy eyed and in pain for several days after the fact. My finger came back after a number of months, believe it or not.

I say all that to say this... If you haven't faced the reality of it, even under controlled settings... It can be quite different.

Doesn't always work like in the movies or in practice! :lol:

Dan

[WayOfTheKeyboard]

Like Sigung86 says, reality is not like in the movies. Too many movies make us think that every shot hits the target which then instantly falls dead.

I remember reading that most real life shootings take place at about 15 feet, and that trained police officers are only accurate about 20 percent of the time in a real situation. So don't understimate distance in avoiding getting shot. And another thing is, most single gunshot (like 80%) are not fatal. So I agree with Sigung86, run, zigzag, keep running.

And, someone did another demo that at 15 feet or less a man with a knife beats a man with a gun if the gun isnt already drawn. Something like that, anyway. So dont underestimate the danger of a knife at a distance either. Again, like Sigung86 said, run.


Way

[Brother John]

I know of a true story that applies here.
I know this matial arts master who is known for his skillful use of a knife. He had taught a seminar earlier that day in which everyone was practicing knife work with speed and fluidity, powerfully executing every technique...with rubber or wooden knives. Then, later, the master had a handful of his highest ranking black belts in his hotelroom, discussing issues of the day. Then the master stood up and asked his students (4ths and 5ths) how they had felt doing the knife work today. They liked the techniques they had worked and felt very comfortable with their knife skills. The master said that the lesson wasn't over and he had one thing left to teach, a lesson that they wouldn't forget. He walked over, grabbed a REAL knife, unsheathed it and asked who wanted to go first. Each high ranking martial artist went to face a real blade... moving slow... and felt hesitant and shaky.
Facing a REAL blade is an eye opener! A lesson not forgotten.

My own instructor tells me of his lessons in the Kenpo "Rod" techniques... the gun disarms for those that don't know.
He said that his instructor at the time (Mr. Tabatabai) used a pistol with blanks and would have the attacker raise the arm at a steady rate and fire upon reaching height. BIG eye opener. The sound stunns, the smell the sight...everything is different.

Now if we can just get the guys on the street to attack with rubber knives and guns.

Your Brother
John

[Brother John]

IN case some of my brothers are here that were in that room, please note: though I paraphrased... it is the essence of what was told to me. The essential point is unchanged...
Your Brother
John

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by WayOfTheKeyboard


I remember reading that most real life shootings take place at about 15 feet, and that trained police officers are only accurate about 20 percent of the time in a real situation. So don't understimate distance in avoiding getting shot. And another thing is, most single gunshot (like 80%) are not fatal. So I agree with Sigung86, run, zigzag, keep running.

Way

20% ? Define accurate id like to see this study. Center mass usually stops the attacker. When I went through the academy 21ft was the min. distance for an encounter hard to do sometimes depending on the call.

[meni]

Originally posted by Brother John

I'd rather face a knife than a gun.
The reason?
Survival statistics.
More people survive knife attacks than those that survive gun attacks.
I'd rather not have to do either, but if I get to pick...knife.
UNLESS youre talking about Mr. Mills being the weilder. THEN I think I'd die either way and would prefer his speed drawing skills to put me out QUICK!!!
:(
OK, now I'm depressed...

:wah:
gonna go hug my kids.
Your Brother
John

i have to agree !
for sure a knife!

[Cthulhu]

I have a good chance of outrunning someone with a knife.

I'm not outrunning a bullet.

Cthulhu

[Brother John]

I have a good chance of outrunning someone with a knife.

yes, but Les asked:

Assuming you couldn't avoid the confrontation

so what would you rather if you were cornered and couldn't run??
just wonderin....
Your Brother
John

[Cthulhu]

Still the knife, because it requires little-to-no skill to use a gun. Hell, a DA-only revolver only needs to be pointed in your direction and fired...don't have to worry about pulling the hammer back, the semi-auto action of chambering a round, or even a safety. As long as the gun is loaded with the correct ammunition, just 'point and click'.

Sure, it doesn't really require much skill to slash or stab with a knife, but that bullet will be moving much faster than the knife.

Cthulhu

[meni]

Originally posted by Cthulhu

. As long as the gun is loaded with the correct ammunition, just 'point and click'.

Cthulhu
I wish my computer would work like this
The correct software and then point and click :)

[Brother John]

"I wish my computer would work like this
The correct software and then point and click "

Few in history have been so blessed my brother!
few...
Your Brother
John

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Brother John

I know of a true story that applies here.
I know this matial arts master who is known for his skillful use of a knife. He had taught a seminar earlier that day in which everyone was practicing knife work with speed and fluidity, powerfully executing every technique...with rubber or wooden knives. Then, later, the master had a handful of his highest ranking black belts in his hotelroom, discussing issues of the day. Then the master stood up and asked his students (4ths and 5ths) how they had felt doing the knife work today. They liked the techniques they had worked and felt very comfortable with their knife skills. The master said that the lesson wasn't over and he had one thing left to teach, a lesson that they wouldn't forget. He walked over, grabbed a REAL knife, unsheathed it and asked who wanted to go first. Each high ranking martial artist went to face a real blade... moving slow... and felt hesitant and shaky.
Facing a REAL blade is an eye opener! A lesson not forgotten.

My own instructor tells me of his lessons in the Kenpo "Rod" techniques... the gun disarms for those that don't know.
He said that his instructor at the time (Mr. Tabatabai) used a pistol with blanks and would have the attacker raise the arm at a steady rate and fire upon reaching height. BIG eye opener. The sound stunns, the smell the sight...everything is different.

Now if we can just get the guys on the street to attack with rubber knives and guns.

Your Brother
John Brother John, you make a good point here! Real knife defensive training starts in my system at 3rd brown belt. I teach the basic lunges, downward stabs, and slicing stabs close quarters, at moderate speed. At 2nd brown the speed increases to high velocity, and 1st brown the velocity is increased up a notch. The black belt knife training is then experienced at the previous speeds and then transformed into more realistic circumstances, depending upon situations, locations of the attack taking place and conditions concerning available witnesses, lonely parking lots, etc,.! The gun defenses are also taught.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

[Les]

Originally posted by Brother John

I'd rather face a knife than a gun.
The reason?
Survival statistics.
More people survive knife attacks than those that survive gun attacks. Your Brother John

Brother John,

Surely we must balance the survival statistics with the frequency statistics of each attack.

Here in the UK, you are three times more likely to be killed with a knife than a gun. (Source; Office for National Statistics)

While I'll accept that guns are easier to obtain in the USA, I beleive that proportionally more people will carry a knife.

Les

[Les]

Originally posted by Yari

No really. It would have to be the knife. Trying to control a gun, that can go off, and shoot yourself or somebody nearby ( a loved one maybe?) is hard.

The knife I think I stand a chance to control, and as said before if the possibility to keep distance is there that's in favour of defending against a knife.Yari

Yari,

While I agree with your point about a gun going off during a struggle, couldn't a knife cut or stab you, or someone else during the struggle.

The gun will only damage you from a small part of it's mass, but the knife has a greater damage creating area.

You mentioned distance, but surely that is a way of avoiding the confrontation, which the original post precluded.

Les

[Les]

Originally posted by molson

Knife.. most people can be effective with a gun even with out alot of practice. Not everyone with a knife knows how to use it with effectiveness. I been to some knife seminars and realized that using a knife can be skilled.

Molson,

You're dead right when you say that using a knife can require skill, but personally I don't wan't to be injured by anyone, be they are skilled or not.

An unskilled opponent is more likely to act/react in an unpredictable way, which could catch even a skilled practitioner out.

Les

[Les]

Originally posted by True2Kenpo


If I was able to create reasonable distance between myself and my attacker, I think I would rather have them weild a knife. An attacker holding a gun at a good distance can really not be defended.
Respectfully In Kenpo,
Joshua Ryer


Joshua,

What would you consider to be a safe distance from an opponent with a knife?

Tests have shown that the average person can cover the following distances;

6ft in less than 0.5 second
12ft in less than 1 second
21ft in less than 1.5 seconds
40ft in less than 2.5 seconds

(Source; National Federation for Personal Safety)


Les

[Les]

Originally posted by Sigung86

My first thought on this question is that ... facing either one, I would have an overwhelming need to run! Run hard, run fast, and run serpentine. For the "most part", both weapons are ineffective in the hands of the average person with distances greater than 12 feet.

Dan

Dan,

Your reply was very interesting, your experience 'at the sharp end' gives credence to your opinions. It also goes to show that even in controlled situations the script can change without warning.

On the subject of distance, heres a thought.

Tests have shown that the average person can cover the following distances;

6ft in less than 0.5 second
12ft in less than 1 second
21ft in less than 1.5 seconds
40ft in less than 2.5 seconds

(Source; National Federation for Personal Safety)

Les

P.S.
Dan, you didn't actually answer the question. :)

[Les]

Originally posted by Cthulhu

Still the knife, because it requires little-to-no skill to use a gun. Hell, a DA-only revolver only needs to be pointed in your direction and fired...don't have to worry about pulling the hammer back, the semi-auto action of chambering a round, or even a safety. As long as the gun is loaded with the correct ammunition, just 'point and click'.

Sure, it doesn't really require much skill to slash or stab with a knife, but that bullet will be moving much faster than the knife.

Cthulhu

Cthulhu,

While I agree that the bullet will travel faster than the knife, once it has left the barrel of the gun it cannot change its direction, whereas the knife can.

Les

[Les]

I've enjoyed your replies to this thread, but unlike most of you, I feel that I'd prefer to take my chances with the gun than the knife.

In the hands of an 'expert' there is little chance of overcoming either weapon, but it most cases we won't be facing an expert.

When I say a knife, I'm not talking Crocodile Dundee.
A blade 3cm (1.4 inches) long will penetrate the ribcage.
A blade 4cm (1.6 inches) long will penetrate the heart.

In the UK, stabbing attacks account for the greatest rise in murders. (Source; Office for National Statistics)

Also in the UK, over three times as people are killed with a knife than with a gun. (Source; Office for National Statistics)

When someone pulls a gun on you, will you notice this? Probably! When someone pulls a knife? Maybe not.

In most attacks involving an edged weapon, the victim is already committed to the physical encounter before being aware that a weapon is involved.

Most victims who are knifed perceive the thrust or slice to be a punch at the time it is delivered.
(Those of you who said you would run have to see the knife coming first. Would you run from what appeared to be a punch?)

Here's some knife facts I use in my work as a Personal Safety training consultant. They come from specialist courses I have taken with the National Federation for Personal Safety.

Within it's range;

It has better stopping capabilities than a gun
It is psychologically intimidating
It is easy to conceal
It doesn't run out of ammunition
It doesn't jam
It doesn't misfire
The knife is the most accurate weapon for its range

FINAL WORDS

As Mr Parker told us, 'Distance is your best friend'

If you cannot create distance, be prepared to get hurt, but don't stop defending yourself when you do.

Try to remove the threat by:
Stopping the attacker
Stopping the delivery system
Controlling the delivery system

Empty Hand Skills are not an equal match for an armed attacker.

The aim of any defence is to
Survive the encounter
Create an opportunity to escape.

Sorry to be so long winded with this post.

Les

[Brother John]

WOW Les...
I really like what you have to say.
Mind if I cut and paste to word and save it in my personal files to teach my students?
Do you get royalties?
;)
Your Brother
John

[Les]

Originally posted by Brother John

WOW Les...
I really like what you have to say.
Mind if I cut and paste to word and save it in my personal files to teach my students?
Do you get royalties?
;)
Your Brother
John

John,

You are welcome to take whatever you feel will be useful to you.
So is any other member of this forum.
Royalties usually come in a bottle. Can you get Calvados in the States???

But please do remember that the statistics quoted are perhaps more relevant to the United Kingdom than the USA.

Your local government office or your local police authority should be able to point you to figures for your state or city. (Or the net)

Les

[ETorbin]

In my experience with knife and gun attacks the one major difference that hasn't been noted yet is who is acting/reacting. With kenpo knife attacks, we are reacting to a thrust, slice or stab and we must defend against a dangerous moving weapon.

Against a gun (we'll assume that it is pointed at your chest), your opponent is going to be waiting for you to do something like give your money to him, otherwise you would already be shot. This gives the defender the action vs. reaction advantage. Our opponent is no longer acting, he is waiting. By seizing the initiative at this point, the opponent must go through the entire OODA (observe, orient, decide, and act) loop which gives at least a .25 second reaction time advantage.

Neither prospect sounds fun to me, but given the choice between defending against a moving knife or a stationary gun, I might just take the gun.

ETorbin

[pineapple head]

At first i was adamant i would rather be atacked by the knife , but after Les's post which i read a few times , i think the gun would be the more favorable weapon. (to be attacked with).
As soon as you here knife you think 'easy i'll just run' , not as simple as that in reality.
I was walking down a school corridor when i was 15 years old and in passing a group of youths one lunged at me with a punch to the neck , it hurt but i just walked on , as i walked i was getting a little dizzy , i placed my hand on my neck to "rub it better" when i removed my hand it was covered in blood.
He had actually a corkscrew between his fist when he hit me.
I did not see the weapon so i could not run , this example just highlights how dangerous the knife actually is.

:asian: