Capoeira vs Kung Fu (Sparring)
By Jon_B - Sat, 23 Dec 2006 15:09:48 GMT
Originally Posted at: Deluxe Forums
====================

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEtFqistlUI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLgIYFA4z3Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDpbHN-Eeow (A combination of the good parts of both videos [Mostly in favor of Capoeira] )

I know Kung Fu is effective against other styles (and the Streets). However, I don't know if these guys were very good.


Read More... (http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=23157&goto=newpost)


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Capoeira vs Kung Fu (Sparring)
By Jon_B - Sat, 23 Dec 2006 15:09:48 GMT
Originally Posted at: Deluxe Forums
====================

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEtFqistlUI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLgIYFA4z3Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDpbHN-Eeow (A combination of the good parts of both videos [Mostly in favor of Capoeira] )

I know Kung Fu is effective against other styles (and the Streets). However, I don't know if these guys were very good.


Read More... (http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=23157&goto=newpost)


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love the 2 takeodwns by the capoeirista , the 1st one was when he seemed to ram into him and the second was the "scissor" (i think thats what the brazilian name is translated into) towards the end.

kung fu fighter got some good kicks in aswell , put those capoeiristas right off balance!

chris

That was Kung Fu ?

That was Kung Fu ?

I hear ya.

I'm still waiting for the CMA to show up... all I saw was crap fu...

Yeah, I've yet to find a really good fighting video featuring real kung fu....sad really

That was Kung Fu ?

:confused:

I vote no, it wasn't

If it was and if it was Sanda as it claims it was at best a poor impersonation of sports Sanda (Sanshou - not quite the level of Cung Le – now THAT would have been fun to watch, all 3 seconds of it).

Non-sports Sanda does not use gloves or pads and most strikes with the hand are palm strikes. But I am guessing it is more likely they called it Kung Fu because they had a flag from the Peoples Republic of China on the wall.

Yeah that about sums up my thoughts on it as well.

Posting vids on MT is so easy, that it wouldn't take much to post something of yourselves in response to this. If this isn't kung fu, I'd love to see what you consider what would be the real kung fu.

Posting vids on MT is so easy, that it wouldn't take much to post something of yourselves in response to this. If this isn't kung fu, I'd love to see what you consider what would be the real kung fu.

Why?

It is simple, they called it Sanda and they are wearing gloves. This tells me it is sports Sanda and if you want to see real Sports Sanda just look for vids of Cung Le fighting (pre MMA) and you will see real Sanda.

Questions:
Do you train Kung Fu?
Do you disagree with the assessment?
If so why?

I do not know or train Capoeira but I have seen it from what I have seen and what was in the video I would say in my opinion it is not good Capoeira either.

Posting vids on MT is so easy, that it wouldn't take much to post something of yourselves in response to this. If this isn't kung fu, I'd love to see what you consider what would be the real kung fu.
The problem is not that is wasn't "real kung fu" the problem was it was not witholding to any of the principles or techniques that make up kung fu. Playing kicker with your hands hanging at your side is simply not kung fu, and I have posted many videos in the sticky video thread in the general CMA section that I consider to be skilled kung fu, I wouldn't post a video of myself as an example of skilled kung fu because I'm not that impressive ;)

7sm

It is simple, they called it Sanda and they are wearing gloves. This tells me it is sports Sanda and if you want to see real Sports Sanda just look for vids of Cung Le fighting (pre MMA) and you will see real Sanda.

I've seen Cung Lee fight and I think he's great. I was just hoping to see some other styles presented well.

Do you train Kung Fu?

Only a little. I have about 6 months of wing chun under my belt. However, I have trained for six years in yang style tai chi, but that doesn't really count...

Do you disagree with the assessment? If so why?

I would say that I probably don't know enough to agree or disagree with the assessment. However, I can agree with 7sm, hands down is a big no no.

I do not know or train Capoeira but I have seen it from what I have seen and what was in the video I would say in my opinion it is not good Capoeira either.

Someone should PM Flying Crane about this thread. He actually is qualified to teach capoeira.

The problem is not that is wasn't "real kung fu" the problem was it was not witholding to any of the principles or techniques that make up kung fu. Playing kicker with your hands hanging at your side is simply not kung fu, and I have posted many videos in the sticky video thread in the general CMA section that I consider to be skilled kung fu, I wouldn't post a video of myself as an example of skilled kung fu because I'm not that impressive ;)

7sm

I'll check out the video thread you stickied. Thanks for the Rec. Regarding vids, I wouldn't worry too much about your skill level. I'm not that good either and people haven't laughed me off the board. I would just love to see how some MT members actually move.

I've seen Cung Lee fight and I think he's great. I was just hoping to see some other styles presented well.

It would be nice to see, true, but they are labeling it Sanda.

Only a little. I have about 6 months of wing chun under my belt. However, I have trained for six years in yang style tai chi, but that doesn't really count...

That is about how long I have invested in Wing Chun as well and it appears it shall go no further.

Why doesn't the Tai Chi count?

What I'm about to say is probably not wise, but I dont really consider san shou and Cung Le true kung fu either. When I refer to kung fu I'm talking about non sport normally.

I've thought about putting some video up of myself, dont really have much though.

What I'm about to say is probably not wise, but I dont really consider san shou and Cung Le true kung fu either. When I refer to kung fu I'm talking about non sport normally.

I've thought about putting some video up of myself, dont really have much though.

WHAT!? :tantrum: How dare you!!!! Just kidding :uhyeah:

No problem, it is certainly not traditional Kung fu and I am not really sure, other than its relation to non-sport Sanda and that coming from China if it can be considered kung fu or not any more than calling a Japanese or Korean art Kung fu.

I only put that forth because the clip says it is Sanda and they are wearing gloves which to me say sports Sanda. I train non-sport Sanda and I do not consider that traditional either, but I do consider it a kung fu because it comes directly from multiple kung fu styles. But that is of course depending on how you want to define kung fu. If you define kung fu as a system that includes training Qi then you would not call non-sport Sanda Kung fu either. Regardless of definition non-sport Sanda definitely does not use or care about gloves or protective equipment at all. Therefore if that is Sanda it is Sports Sanda. However I still maintain they called it Kung Fu just because they tacked up a PRC flag on the wall.

But I will say, and this is only my opinion, that the non-sport Sanda is the most traditional Kung fu training I have had and I have seen multiple similarities to Xingyi, Long Fist and Tai Chi, particularly in application. But I have not trained the sports version so I have no idea how it feels but I do know that many of the things that are in the non-sport version are removed from the sport version (Qinna, and weapons defense for example).

EDIT: Maybe this will help Sanda/Sanshou: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38089

Why doesn't the Tai Chi count?

My teacher doesn't seem to think tai chi is kung fu. I've asked him several times about this and he says that kung fu is too external (hard) to be tai chi.

My teacher doesn't seem to think tai chi is kung fu. I've asked him several times about this and he says that kung fu is too external (hard) to be tai chi.

OK, but there are styles of Kung Fu that are not external, Xingyi, Bagua for example. But I can't disagree that most Kung fu styles are harder and more external than Tai Chi.

I must apologize; I thought you were going the Tai Chi is not a martial art route, once again my apologies for making the assumption

I think Tai Chi is very much kung fu or at least true kung fu and tai chi should share many fighting principles. Kung Fu without the "softness" is not CMA in my opinion. Sorry if I offend.

Also, here is a clip we have had discussions on allready, but represents what I consider good kung fu. Its not free sparring and lacks a little of the elements we try to train, but its pretty dang good. (Turn your sound down)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FlPNrSDuqs

I think Tai Chi is very much kung fu or at least true kung fu and tai chi should share many fighting principles. Kung Fu without the "softness" is not CMA in my opinion. Sorry if I offend.

Also, here is a clip we have had discussions on allready, but represents what I consider good kung fu. Its not free sparring and lacks a little of the elements we try to train, but its pretty dang good. (Turn your sound down)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FlPNrSDuqs

Nice video thank you for posting those. I saw a couple strikes in there I did not know were in Mantis that I have seen in White crane and in Long Fist but that means little since I have only seen one Northern mantis form and the time I sparred a Southern Mantis person I was less concerned about what types of strikes he was throwing and more concerned about not getting hit by the barrage that was coming at me.

But this video made me think of something, and I admit I am jumping to a bit of a conclusion here about location, but based on the background is that China, Taiwan or someplace else in the East? And if so why is it you never see (Martial art of choice vs. Kung fu from those countries) and Why is it that you never see “martial art of choice vs. kung fu” and have the challenge against people like the ones in the video?

That last question, admittedly, is a bit rhetorical. It is because if one is posting a video of whatever style against whatever other style one chooses one will NOT go up against a guy that is well trained in that art or at least against someone that may beat the tar out of him. That would certainly not prove the chosen art is superior to the other now would it.

This is not to say that a skilled martial artist from Capoeira could not beat a skill martial artist from Kung fu, it is saying that in general these videos of “A vs. B” are not really proof of anything but the ability to find a martial artist that is less skilled then the center piece style of the moment.

I know Cung Le is not what you would call Kung Fu but you would not see a "my art vs. Cung Le" unless the person in that art was highly skilled because the person making the video would get his head taken off if they were not. You also will not see a "my art vs. a master of any other art" for at least 2 reasons. The first is the same reason you will not see the Cung Le video the second is that as much as many do not want to hear this real masters of any martial art generally do not feel they have anything to prove to anyone.

WOW.. That was a rant, haven't done one of those in a while.

No that school appears to be in Korea maybe?

No that school appears to be in Korea maybe?

Korea is not in the East :)

but based on the background is that China, Taiwan or someplace else in the East?

Thanks and my rant still stands, DAMN I love ranting every now and then, I have missed it.

No no, I agree with your rant, just trying to nail down where it was filmed :)

I dont know why we dont see X vs. kung fu with people who seriously train like this, probably because the videos were "inconclusive" ;)

No that school appears to be in Korea maybe?

If it's the one I think it is (can't see it on Youtube), it's a mantis school in Korea. I think I remember seeing it was either Taiji Meihua or Taiji mantis. Couple guys hitting hard & fast in drills??

If it's the one I think it is (can't see it on Youtube), it's a mantis school in Korea. I think I remember seeing it was either Taiji Meihua or Taiji mantis. Couple guys hitting hard & fast in drills??

Yup, thats the one.

If it's the one I think it is (can't see it on Youtube), it's a mantis school in Korea. I think I remember seeing it was either Taiji Meihua or Taiji mantis. Couple guys hitting hard & fast in drills??

I did not think you did not agree, I just have not ranted in so long I needed to mention it again.

That is a good video however and you do not see those guys challenged do you.

I think Tai Chi is very much kung fu or at least true kung fu and tai chi should share many fighting principles. Kung Fu without the "softness" is not CMA in my opinion. Sorry if I offend.

Also, here is a clip we have had discussions on allready, but represents what I consider good kung fu. Its not free sparring and lacks a little of the elements we try to train, but its pretty dang good. (Turn your sound down)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FlPNrSDuqs

That is a nice video and I enjoyed their CMA movement. Thanks.

If kung gu constitutes standing around, with no guard, throwing no punches, and throwing the same lame, predictable kicks, then that was fantastic kung fu... However, that's not my experience of KF.