Lets talk PM, training theories, and form work...

How do you train your forms?

What are the favorite methods for closing the gab (advancing) using PM techniques from the forms?

What forms do you think address what situation?

Skard1

I've found that if I don't take at least one or two days to go over every form I know I will forget them rather quickly. I normally use friday morning to go over all my forms. I normally go through a form slow but smoothly, then take it and hold each stance/kick/punch ect, then I go through it full speed. SO three times on each form, thats my review day.
I'm at work so I'll come back and write about my "closing the gap" favorites.


7sm

I always thought mantis was more of a let-them-come-to-you type of system.

Originally posted by arnisador

I always thought mantis was more of a let-them-come-to-you type of system.

Yes and no, depends on the situation, and the player, myself I like to strike first.

7star- I practice my forms each night, and also write them down, plus I draw little stick men, look forward to your post on advancing.

PS If you do your forms 3 times a day, you have done it over 1000 times, after one year.

Skard1

Originally posted by arnisador

I always thought mantis was more of a let-them-come-to-you type of system.

I think that is more in the philosophy of the system. You don't want to be the attacker normally, and my personjal opinion, I don't want to be the one to throw the first punch, but when in a situation where you are forced to fight, you want to be straight forward, very precise and end the confrontation as quickly as possible to save yourself from harm. "closing the gap" is a very good technique to go from first blow to inside fighting where our system is most effective. If your going to fight, if the situation warrents it, win.

JMHO

7sm

Originally posted by Skarbromantis

7star- I practice my forms each night, and also write them down, plus I draw little stick men, look forward to your post on advancing.

PS If you do your forms 3 times a day, you have done it over 1000 times, after one year.

Skard1

I wish I had the time to practice all of my forms every night. I get a few of the most recent ones in, but mostly at night I'm doing abs, and pushups with tension sets per hung gar. Thats awesoem about doign it three times makes it 1000, thats impressive, makes me want to do them everynight now!!
As far as closing the gap, we train with chi sao, I know most mantis schools do not, but it is great sensitivity building. For some reason I'm a natural at Chin Na, so I usually use some type of that to close the gap. What I'm working on the most is my plucking skills, I want to be able to pluck into a chin na wrist move and mantis step inside. Thats my ideal technique. I use it probably a little too much in sticky hands, but I want to get it down. There is just so much you can do, I also like to pluck the punch, feint an au lau choi, get the mto go up for a block and pull a little variant to black tiger steals the heart. I know that our termanology is probably goign to be very different, but does that make any sense?

7sm

Yes I do understand, we do use diffrent terms, but slowly I am teaching myself some of the more traditional names, I like the 3rd move in Crushing Steps the left hand block, to right forward punch, also the1st move in 18 Old Men, the left hand pluck, to right hand downward chop, I like to use alot of palms and shin/knee kicks.

Yeah its hard to find the time to go over them, but every little min counts.

What form are you practing now? Maybe we can have some talks on that that form.

Skard1

Originally posted by Skarbromantis

Yes I do understand, we do use diffrent terms, but slowly I am teaching myself some of the more traditional names, I like the 3rd move in Crushing Steps the left hand block, to right forward punch, also the1st move in 18 Old Men, the left hand pluck, to right hand downward chop, I like to use alot of palms and shin/knee kicks.

Yeah its hard to find the time to go over them, but every little min counts.

What form are you practing now? Maybe we can have some talks on that that form.

Skard1

Yes, I love the plucking techniques. I like to use plucking with chin na locks and breaks. The 1st move of 18 old men is cool, I use alot of plucking with Cha Chui type strikes.
I'm working on a Wah Lum form actually right now, called Seven Kicks, it starts with a grab-punch, two wipe-push kicks, reverse lady horse, chinaman sit to cat stance, sidekick, jump inside crescent kick, take down to snake in the grass, half sweep, full sweep, up kick, tam tui into jumping outside crescent kick, to black tiger steals the heart, then repeat backwards!!!! :eek:

I hope that made sense, I love talking about my forms and all, so please forgive my rambling!! The last 7* form I was workign on was Little Tiger. My speed and fluitity is terrible on it though.

7sm

Wow can’t say I know that form, but it sounds awesome!

Then repeat backwards :D

I just finished the 1st set of Important Fundamentals its such a long form, over 40 moves.

Little Tiger, I have never heard of that form?

What other name does it go by, is it an advanced form?

Skard1

Originally posted by Skarbromantis

Wow can’t say I know that form, but it sounds awesome!

Then repeat backwards :D

I just finished the 1st set of Important Fundamentals its such a long form, over 40 moves.

Little Tiger, I have never heard of that form?

What other name does it go by, is it an advanced form?

Skard1

Little Tiger is on our Black 1 or 2 level test. Let me see if I can find the traditional name for it. Wow, I don't think I know what the Important Fundamentals are, are they like the Sub Sei Lo's ? 40 moves is ALOT!! MAn I get all excited just talking about forms! 7 Kicks is so hard to do ccorrectly, its not really an advanced form but it encompases so much it is really hard to do. It takes a long time to learn correctly so we learn it pretty quickly. I'm going to go email my sifu now and get the name of Little Tiger.

7sm

Great I cant wait to hear what he has to say.

Yeah when you study PM you get to have a real passion for the
forms.

The First Set is listed in Won Hun Fun books as 1 Set of Route Essence

Are we the only PM guys on the Forum?

Skard1

www.angelfire.com/empire/andremartin4

Yup, you may be the only two PM types on this site, regrettably. You'd find more mantis friends here (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=7) but we'd hate to lose you!

That guy goes to my school, cool!

arnisador - Yeah I post there on the regular , but I like the vibe I get here also, so its like my Yin and Yang, KFO on one side MT on the other, nice balance.

Skard1

ive tried posting on kfo, the feedback is generally pretty poor, so i dont bother. as a matter of fact, there are some wah lumers on there even, but whatever, i havent been training wah lum lately.

and someone mentioned 7 kicks? i think we had that in our system as well, does it have a lot of sweeps and some kicks with your hands planted on the ground?

Originally posted by theneuhauser

ive tried posting on kfo, the feedback is generally pretty poor, so i dont bother. as a matter of fact, there are some wah lumers on there even, but whatever, i havent been training wah lum lately.

and someone mentioned 7 kicks? i think we had that in our system as well, does it have a lot of sweeps and some kicks with your hands planted on the ground?

Yeah me too, I didn't like the "feel" of that forum either. I tried to post a bit, but no one seemed as knowledgable and serious as the people on this forum.
7 Kicks, yes its Wah Lum form I've been workign on, and yes it has several sweeps (4 to be exact) and some kicks with your hands on the ground, right before the tam tui's :eek: Its a beautiful form, but very tiring as well.

Skarbromantis, I'm sorry I assumed it was a 7* form but it as well is a wah lum form, its actually called "small tiger", is an open hand form. My mistake, Kune lik is my last 7* form. I'm a little confused now because Sifu started teaching me all these forms for a demo/commercial/tournament he put together and I suffered from not asking enough questions. Do you know Kune Lik ? Its nice and hard, very low the whole form!

7sm

wah lum 5th form is bad a. you probably havent learned it, but maybe your instructor can show you. it has a power move were you side press with your right leg just a few inches off the ground. super loww, baby!
and if you like long and exhausting, there's a form called 36 hands, it was taught to me in two separate sections!!! im pretty sure its wahlum too. the advanced forms begin to get wacky with different animal fists and alot of tam tui.

Originally posted by theneuhauser

wah lum 5th form is bad a. you probably havent learned it, but maybe your instructor can show you. it has a power move were you side press with your right leg just a few inches off the ground. super loww, baby!
and if you like long and exhausting, there's a form called 36 hands, it was taught to me in two separate sections!!! im pretty sure its wahlum too. the advanced forms begin to get wacky with different animal fists and alot of tam tui.

Yes, I've seen Wah Lum 5th, I don't know it, but I have seen oen of our "cousin" sifu's demo it, look really beautiful, oh adn hard as hell too!! Yes, those wah lum guys just love their tam tui's don't they!! We did a demo this weekend and one of our younger students did tam tui's while we did forms, probably around 3 or 4 min straight!! He small though, not much to push up, like some of us!!

7sm

when you say tam tui's are you talking about the squatted kicks that look like a moroccan wedding dance? or is it something else? i meant lot's of tam tui in general, double snap kicks and tornado kicks and all that other leg stuff. btw i think my number one favorite is the form saint hands.

Originally posted by theneuhauser

when you say tam tui's are you talking about the squatted kicks that look like a moroccan wedding dance? or is it something else? i meant lot's of tam tui in general, double snap kicks and tornado kicks and all that other leg stuff. btw i think my number one favorite is the form saint hands.

When I say tam tui I mean where you do a push kick, leave the leg straight out in front, go down with the other leg all the way down to like chinaman sit, with only the one leg, then back up completely, flat footed, with kick leg still extended.

7sm

ok! yes. those are pretty hard on anyone, much less a larger person. the one in 5th form comes after youve done a whole lot of tiring stuff already and i can remember really trying hard to get up on that one. i bet i cant do one now, ill try tonight:) one way or another, though, i will be training in a new system starting next week, i just dont know what yet.:confused:

lets get back to 7 star-
some say its the most aggressive of all the CMAs.
do you agree?

Originally posted by theneuhauser


lets get back to 7 star-
some say its the most aggressive of all the CMAs.
do you agree?

If you are judging aggressivness by the attack, then yes I would agree. Most 7 star people will take quite a bit before resorting to a fight, like most CMAist, but when the attack does come it is extremely aggressive. I guess the correct word is continuious and extremely effective. With the combination of hands and feet, along with the grabs and breaks, I think 7 Star could be considered one of the most agressive. The Wing Chun attack is pretty agressive as well though.

7sm

but isnt there very little defense? in wahlum it was mostly scoops, plucks and those crashing blocks which were not terribly defensive, alot like a karate chop.

Originally posted by theneuhauser

but isnt there very little defense? in wahlum it was mostly scoops, plucks and those crashing blocks which were not terribly defensive, alot like a karate chop.

Well now that depends on how you look at defence. Most of our defence comes from yielding. Even if you get a hit in the effect is minimized from the "victim" rolling or "yielding" his body to the power of the punch. Ther are the crushing blocks but not very many, and there is still quite a bit of plucking involved as with most manits systems. Probably the most effective and my favorite defense in the yielding pluck, yielding your body to the punch leaving them extended with no contact to you or at least minimal contact, and then executing the pluck basically leaves them open to any offensive move you can think of. It sounds really almost non-effective, but once it is mastered it is extremely effective, I have not had a solid hit or kick on my sifu yet!! not one!! If I get through to him, assuming he didn't let me through to perform a pluck or grab - lock, when I make contact his body flows with the punch and ends up not absorbing much of the power at all.

7sm

what types of practice do you normally do? (and its ok to say forms in the cma forum).

Originally posted by theneuhauser

what types of practice do you normally do? (and its ok to say forms in the cma forum).

LOL, yes I do forms, in fact I have a whole days for only forms! I go over every form I know. However, most of my training involves running at the begining, then go through a general workout/warmup (streching, pushups, abs, pull ups, horse stance, ect). Then I mainly do Sticky Hands, China Na, then some iron conditioning. I don't do sticky hands every day, but as much as possible. They days I don't get to, I do heavy stance training, like holding stances, changing stances up and down the room, tension sets al la Hung Gar.

That said let me also say that this is my set workout, don't for a second believe I'm perfect adn do this every single day without fail, sometimes I'll get to school, and we will just play hackey sack for an hour then I have to rush through my workout :D But I keep trying to convince sifu that hackey sack can improve your kung fu!!:D

7sm

how are the classes run? do you have a usual structure for how the time is used?

Originally posted by theneuhauser

how are the classes run? do you have a usual structure for how the time is used?

In class is a little different, our advanced classes are just an hour and a half so its not so much workout as getting techniques down to train on yoru own later. There is not really a set structure for the class except for the first 30 min are used for stretching and horse stance. Then we normally will go over applications to differnet techniques, alot of partner training on applications. Alot of partner plucking drills and such, alot of sticky hands as well. Then every couple of classes we will spend it working on forms. So the normal class is stretching/stance, then drills, then forms.

I know that most PM schools differ quite a bit in their class curiculum, but I really enjoy our classes. They are structured very well to allow me to learn and grow.

7sm

7star, what type of iron conditioning are you working on?

I do iron arm ,(forearm), and start the iron palm in Nov.

Originally posted by Skarbromantis

7star, what type of iron conditioning are you working on?

I do iron arm ,(forearm), and start the iron palm in Nov.

I'm doing iron arm and iron shin right now, I haven't started iron palm at least not traditionally, we don't spend alot of time on iron palm. How do you guys do your iron palm training?

7sm

Man this thread kinda died.
Anyone here practice sticky hands in their normal training methods? We do sticky hands in our advanced classes about twice a week, then alot of us get together at the school on saturdays to practice sticky hands. I love it, I learn so much regardless of how long I've been training with it. Everytime I practice in it, it seems that I learn something else!
Anyone else have this experience?

7sm

The Iron Palm is the Shaolin way, bag filled with beans, then rocks , then steal shot, droping your hand with the 5 strikes, 100
days, to obtain, 1000 days to keep.

I love sticky hand drills, any thing that deals with touch, you can learn alot from just playing around with it, we dont do it in class but i do it with my step son every night.

Skard1

Skarbromantis, you guys use Jow in your iron palm or any iron body training?
How often do you train in forms, say like how long in between learning one form do you start to learn another?

7sm

Yes I use the Hong Kong, jow called Buddist Masters Recpie, Its the best that I have found If you need some, let me know, I can hook it up, half of the jows out in the market , are garbage, most are in plastic bottles, and dont list the herbs that are in the bottle, what do you use?

We train 1 form a month, every month, 12 months, 12 forms, 24 months, 24 forms, broken down in 4 parts, plus applications, every week.

Skard1

Originally posted by Skarbromantis

Yes I use the Hong Kong, jow called Buddist Masters Recpie, Its the best that I have found If you need some, let me know, I can hook it up, half of the jows out in the market , are garbage, most are in plastic bottles, and dont list the herbs that are in the bottle, what do you use?

We train 1 form a month, every month, 12 months, 12 forms, 24 months, 24 forms, broken down in 4 parts, plus applications, every week.

Skard1

Man could I ever use some jow!! Or at least a recipie, I've been out for a while and I don't want to spend so much money on the junk they are selling out there. Everytime someone in our school goes to New York we all stock up on jow, but I ran out and have been "bumming" from my friend. I don't know the exact name of ours, somethign along the lines of Masters Jow or something? Maybe close to the same as yours.
Sounds like pretty good form training, one a month is a good pase, at least for me. I've had to learn alot the past month simply for a demo, but I like taking my sweet time with them. I'm testing in December and I haven't tried any new forms sinceAugust, I want these to be "perfect" for my "test".

7sm

Mine is in a glass bottle with a cork, and red cap, orange label, is that the same one, you get?

Skard1

Originally posted by Skarbromantis

Mine is in a glass bottle with a cork, and red cap, orange label, is that the same one, you get?

Skard1

Yeah that sounds like what I use. If you do have a hook up for it, I would love to get me some.

7sm

That jow is very hard to find, I have bottles for 20$ including shipping, if you need let me know.

Originally posted by Skarbromantis

That jow is very hard to find, I have bottles for 20$ including shipping, if you need let me know.

Yes it is quite hard to find, that is why we stock up so much when we go to New York. Let me make sure no one is planning a trip and I'll pm you. Thanks

7sm