Hey all,

I'm looking for an objective and informed opinion about Sayoc Kali in comparison to other escrima/kali/arnis methods. If you choose to reply to this please include pertinent information regarding your training experience in similar arts as well as your experience with Sayoc.

Thanks in advance.

I know that this does not match your request totally, however, I do want to pass on to you or anyone else who may be interested whatever information I know about the Sayoc family system.

I have had some limited experience in the system under Guro Ray Dionaldo who resides in Florida. He teaches some of the Sayoc system in his Filipino Combat Systems seminars that I have attended. The Sayoc techniques that I learned flowed and were awesome!

Here is some information about Ray. I would suggest emailing him if you like. The information below comes from his website.

Guro Ray Dionaldo:

Official Knifemaker for The Sayoc International Group

Official Southern U.S. Representative for Sayoc Kali/Silak. Appointed by Tuhon Christopher Sayoc.

SAYOC KALI-SILAK
Instructor: Tuhon Christopher Sayoc
Rank: Lakan Walo Guro (Level 8 Instructor)

SAYOC KALI
Instructor: Grand Tuhon Baltazar "Bo" Sayoc
Rank: Lakan Isa

Filipino Combat Systems
rldblademaster@hotmail.com
www.fcskali.com
www.warriorcraft.com

Sayoc Web Link
www.sayoc.com

Best regards,

Palusut

Palusut,

Thanks for the information.

Anyone else?

I was fortunate enough to learn some of their knife system at one of the Inosanto seminars I attended a few years back, there knife system is amazing.

I have been wanting to train more in it and under it for sometime. This is one of the things I would like to do totally though. I would like to learn their system of knife and teach it someday.

above all the knife systems I have trained under, touched, learned and teach now. It is the one I would like to learn on an art level. There skills are amazing, I have not seen there Kali, but….. Based on the knife system I would imagine it is the same deal style wise mostly. If this is the case, you would not go wrong at least looking at what they have to offer.

I have referred a number of others though to them and have heard always the best from them and there experiences training with the Sayoc team.

Ms J...

:asian:

Thanks Ms. J!

Good info. And I like your site too. Luke and Yoda, huh? LOL.

only consulation i have is that yoda is over 800 years old and i am way to young for him....... weeeeeeeeee......

thanks for the complament on the site, i have worked like the dog on it the past few years.

Ms. J........

hopefully the books we are publishing soon will make enough money that i can start training full time in sayoc knife systems, there in PA and their place is about a 2 hour plus drive for me..

Tomorrow morning, provided the weather behaves, I'm going to train with Guros Aldon Asher and Andrew Zavalla. I got to see them both at a new martial arts store in our area and was mighty impressed. I only touched hands with Mr. Asher, but he slapped me around pretty good :) Great sensitivity. Very enthusiastic about the arts he trains in and martial arts in general. I look forward to it!

Cthulhu

Made a slight boo-boo...Aldon Asher and Andy Zavalla are instructors in Ray Dionaldo's Filipino Combat Systems (FCS), which includes kali, eskrima, sikaran, and Arnis.

I had a blast with these two guys this morning! Since I've never had anything resembling formal FMA training, we started with basics (of course!). Basic striking angles, blocks, footwork, and an introduction to sumbrada. Great fun! I got a wee bit banged up, but nothing that left a mark or drew blood :D

I'm looking forward to more training with Asher and Zavalla. I learned a lot, even if it was 'merely' basics. However, most importantly, I had a helluva lot of fun doing it.

Cthulhu
damn...martial arts are just plain fun!

Originally posted by Ms J
I was fortunate enough to learn some of their knife system at one of the Inosanto seminars I attended a few years back, there knife system is amazing.

How does it differ from other FMA knife systems (e.g. Modern Arnis)? There is an upcoming Pambuan Arnis/Sayoc Kali seminar in my area by an instructor out of Florida and I intend to attend it but have no experience with either of tese systems.

If the FL guy is Dionaldo or Tuhon Sayoc, then I think you probably won't be disappointed. The two FCS guros I'm training with just smoke me with a blade. Dionaldo, and particularly Sayoc, do the same to them.

They've shown me a lot of neat little tricks I've never seen before, in addition to the more traditional basics. I'm diggin' it :D

Unfortunately, since this is my only real experience with FMA, I can't give a comparison to any other FMA because, well, I don't know 'em.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu
If the FL guy is Dionaldo or Tuhon Sayoc

It is not one of them but I suspect he's connected with their school. I do not know.

Well, if you were interested in pure Sayoc Kali, then it'd be a good idea to go. Dionaldo's FCS, though it contains a lot of the Sayoc Kali material, also has influences from other FMA systems (Pambuan Arnis included). Of course, after reviewing the post, there is a possibility it is an FCS person.

Guros Asher and Zavalla invited me to attend the next FCS gathering/seminar in Clearwater, FL. I really hope I get to attend. From what I've heard, it'll be fun.

Please, let us know what you thought of the seminar. I'd be especially interested in your opinions of the Pambuan/Sayoc person! If anything, I think you'll have fun doing the knife flow drills :)

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Well, if you were interested in pure Sayoc Kali, then it'd be a good idea to go. Dionaldo's FCS, though it contains a lot of the Sayoc Kali material, also has influences from other FMA systems (Pambuan Arnis included).

In fact I was looking at Mr. Dionaldo (http://www.fcskali.com/)'s site last night. I notice under his credentials page that he has studied both Sayoc Kali-Silak and Sayoc Kali. Is the former an aspect of the latter?

And, at the risk of being deemed a pest...I notice also that Pambuan Arnis is sometimes listed as Pambuan Arnis Tulisan. Is the name of the art Pambuan Arnis with Tulisan the organization, or is Pambuan Arnis simply an abbrieviated form? I am having trouble finding Pambuan Arnis information on the web.

I notice from the Sayoc Kali (http://www.sayoc.com/) site that the Sayoc system is relatively old (http://www.sayoc.com/lineage.htm) as organized Filipino systems go. The techniques of the Filipino systems are of course not new but organized systems with well-understood lineages are relatively rare it seems.

Sayoc Kali and the Sayoc Silak systems are different. Sayoc Kali is the original family system that was taught by Tuhon Baltazar "Bo" Sayoc and his family members. This system has been taught in the US since about 1968. Tuhon Bo is now retired and living in the Philippines. Tuhon Chris (his son) is now head of the system, and he focuses exclusively on the knife. The saying is "All blade, All the time".

I'm a 2nd degree black belt instructor under Tuhon Bo, but I don't teach the Sayoc Silak system. Tuhon Bo now works only on his Finger Touch System, which is a system of empty hand defense that I find extraordinary, and which I am now teaching at my school.

If you get a chance, try to get some training time with Tuhon Chris, or Guro Ray. As has been posted by others, Tuhon Chris must be seen to be believed. He is truely a great martial artist, and Guro Ray is one of his top three instructors. Highly recommended!

I believe Sayoc Kali-Silak is almost all bladework, but the silak part is unarmed defense against a blade. I could be wrong...total newbie to FMA.

Cthulhu

Since my first posting on Sayoc Kali, here in November, i have been able to do more training in the system.

If you love the knife and the dynamics of the knife, this is defiantly a system to go investigate. Sayoc Kali is the art of the blade; you will learn the dynamics of the blade and what it will fully do as well as your full range of capabilities with it as a weapon. You will also learn the full body mechanics as you cut and what the body will do when receiving each type of cut in a set patter or in a natural flow of action in a fight.

I have also been fortunate enough to take one of their Police gun and knife defensive and awareness tactics seminars.

This is much needed training here to are police and security teams especially in this area and no doubts throughout the United States.

I was very pleased to see this kind of training down here for are teams, much of the awareness levels and street awareness was covered that i understood the realty’s of already based on my training and life time experiences but, many of are teams down here dont yet. Especially now with the added threat levels.

On a personal level, i really like there knife system, and hope to train fully in it in the future. I had surgery this past Monday, that i am recovering from now over the next 6 weeks, but as soon as i am fully healed i have been invited to go and train with there main team in the Philly area... and have been told any time I want to there team will come down here and train with us just to call… woo woo........... So, if any of you are interested in joining in send me a note.

There team and Tuhon Chris, and his famleys were wonderful to train with, i had entirely too much fun at the same time bringing some realty to others training there by just being me....... and i cant say enough good things about there team or there teaching methods.

It was interesting for a few of the police members there to face an old woman that put them though there pace...;)

Un expected for them, way too much fun for me.........:)

Ms. J bows deeply…


:asian:

Ray Dianaldo actually trained along side Chris Sayok under GM Bo Sayok's system which actually contained more stick work than what is in the current Sayok program now. I think Mike Sayok (yes, there is another) teaches more of the stick aspect and Chis specializes more on the blade.

What I liked....I had the opportunity to work many Sayok templates and drills, as well as workout with the seniors at the last Sama Sama, and they have a very scientific approach to blade fighting. I easpecially liked the demo of a "gang" knife fight where the strongest fighter takes the point and the lesser skilled (may be children or women in a tribal sense) picked up fallen blades or finished off the hurt attackers. They also did a good demo on fighting on the ground, with a blade.

What I did not like...no disrespect, but when Mike sayok and Raffy Pambuan took the floor to do their session, very few of Tuhon Chris' people joined in and I got the feeling that they frowned down upon anything "wood".

Other than that, the Sayok system is one of the best knife systems that I have seen. And everyone was very helpful.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by arnisador
[B]

And, at the risk of being deemed a pest...I notice also that Pambuan Arnis is sometimes listed as Pambuan Arnis Tulisan. Is the name of the art Pambuan Arnis with Tulisan the organization, or is Pambuan Arnis simply an abbrieviated form? I am having trouble finding Pambuan Arnis information on the web.

I may be mistaken, but I believe Tulisan (means bandit in Tagalog) is a style of fighting within the Pambuan Arnis system. They also have a subsystem called Pambuan Arnis Cabellero Tulisan, which translates to gentleman-bandit style. Perhaps one of Raffy's students can better expand on this, but i think it is more of a finese, fencing style (go with the force). "Gentlemanly" side stepping and "stealing" an angle of attack?

Originally posted by arnisandyz
I may be mistaken, but I believe Tulisan (means bandit in Tagalog) is a style of fighting within the Pambuan Arnis system. They also have a subsystem called Pambuan Arnis Cabellero Tulisan, which translates to gentleman-bandit style. Perhaps one of Raffy's students can better expand on this, but i think it is more of a finese, fencing style (go with the force). "Gentlemanly" side stepping and "stealing" an angle of attack? [/B]


Though I have no education base to the system above, I wanted to comment because I just thought the description was so cool. I have never seen a description of the format to this styling or learned under a teacher that taught it as it is stated above by that name, but... based on what you state here and if the meanings translated correctly it sounds like something that would be very suited to me styling wise. In addition, I really like the wording and translation of it.

It is sort of what i was taught though in my core arts already. I believe its part of many concepts that have sword fencing backgrounds because of the relevance to the type of weapon and training throughout their evolution.

All i know is i read your translation and found i had this sort of wicked grin on my face, " Pambuan Arnis Cabellero Tulisan, which translates to gentleman-bandit style. "

Gentleman bandit :)

The two words together contradict each other, opposites in essence. Viewed on the level of styling, it again would suit me, i would agree that the meaning meant that you were learning a mix of gentlemanly acceptance of the force, then using a bandit aggressive attack back at your opponent taking control...

i.e. give and take.......

JKD has these same concepts, partly due to the fencing background that was part of the evolution it its path. In addition, are found in fma concepts in general.


Ms... J.....:asian: :asian: :asian:

Uh, yeah...what arnisandyz said :)

Now that Andy is here, he can field all the Sayoc Kali and Pambuan Arnis questions and I can stop talking outta my butt :D

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Uh, yeah...what arnisandyz said :)

Now that Andy is here, he can field all the Sayoc Kali and Pambuan Arnis questions and I can stop talking outta my butt :D

Cthulhu


Hey now, I have some "working knowledge" of these systems. I by no means am an expert on them.

Originally posted by arnisandyz

Hey now, I have some "working knowledge" of these systems. I by no means am an expert on them.

That may be so, but it's still a hell of a lot more than what I have! Unless a more qualified candidate comes along, I nominate you as the resident expert ;)

Cthulhu

:lol:

How do the "vital templates" in Sayoc Kali differ from angles of attack? Are they based on certain particular points that are attacked? I know Cthulhu has mentioned that knowledge of anatomy plays a big role in the system.

Originally posted by arnisador

How do the "vital templates" in Sayoc Kali differ from angles of attack? Are they based on certain particular points that are attacked? I know Cthulhu has mentioned that knowledge of anatomy plays a big role in the system.


I can only give my first impressions from the one I've been shown so far...

The template I was shown is various strikes to vital points of the body: cuts to the carotid/jugular, 'C'-cut to body, straight slash down torso, stab, etc.

Done statically, it's just a guy waving a knife at someone. However, the 'target' can defend against the cuts, which forces you to deal with the defenses to get the cuts in. Amazingly, when done with defenses, it all flows.

Again, this is just first impressions. If arnisandyz is on, he can elaborate or provide a more accurate description.

Cthulhu

From the Sayoc Website...

The Sayoc Kali system of knife work includes methods of targeting different vital points of the body. These targeting systems are known as vital templates. This is in contrast to systems that commonly just present a system of angles by which to deliver knife strikes which may or may not have an equivalent degree of effectiveness. We apply our left hand vital templates that were developed to counter the right hand vital templates. The right hand vital templates are designed to counter reflexive and conditioned responses. The left hand vital templates were designed to react to correct responses.


In other words, Sayoc Kali is very feeder based. Meaning you present an attack and see what response you get, if you get a "bad hand" type of response, continuing the flow of the vital template will allow your blade to seek the correct path. If you get a correct response. the left hand template (holding a blade) comes into play. The left and right are done seperate and together in practice.

Think of it as more scientific approach, but similar to a boxing combination. Punch high, he covers his head, so hit low.

Sorry, I made a mistake, although we practice the left hand with blade, it can be used empty hand within the templates for hitting, clearing, trapping, etc.

Hope this helps.

Looking at Mark Wiley's Filipino Fighting Arts book, it sounds as if Sayoc Kali does not use the "defanging the snake principle" as much as other FMA--that Sayoc practitioners prefer to get at the vital regions on the body sooner rather than damaging the limbs. Is this perception accurate?

Originally posted by arnisador

Looking at Mark Wiley's Filipino Fighting Arts book, it sounds as if Sayoc Kali does not use the "defanging the snake principle" as much as other FMA--that Sayoc practitioners prefer to get at the vital regions on the body sooner rather than damaging the limbs. Is this perception accurate?

From what I've seen I would agree with that. Although hitting the limbs does happen, I don't think its stressed as much as a other FMA. It seems like they like going from extended long (throwing range) to tight middle-corto range to take away some of the throwing from the attacker, thus avoiding the long range (where defanging usually occurs. At one seminar Tuhon Chris showed us a counter to a defang counter. He stopped his attack short (as not to get cut) and launched the blade into the defanger, as he was avoiding the projectile, Tuhon Chris drew another blade and went in for a vital target. They like to carry multiple blades obviously! Just my observation.

Thanks arnisandyz! This has been most educational.

I learned today that Sayoc Kali will be featured in two upcoming movies:
The Hunted (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0269347).
Confessions of a Dangerous Mind (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0290538). (The Sam Rockwell character.)

Sayoc Kali instructors trained actors in these movies.

Originally posted by arnisador

I learned today that Sayoc Kali will be featured in two upcoming movies:
The Hunted (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0269347).
Confessions of a Dangerous Mind (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0290538). (The Sam Rockwell character.)

Sayoc Kali instructors trained actors in these movies.

The cast listing for The Hunted lists Rafael Kayanan and Thomas Kier as knife technical advisors!

Rafael, and his brother Ricardo(?), are ninth-level instructors in Sayoc Kali-Silak, and Thomas Kier is ranked in the system as well. I'm very interested in seeing how their expertise is used!

Cthulhu

At the last FCS gathering Ray had mentioned that Rafael was in California doing stunt coregraphy for "Tom's movie". Does anyone know if Tom Kier is actually IN the movie (maybe a bit role) or is he also primarily a stunt/technical advisor? I think he would make a pretty "BIG" screen presence!

I have to see these movies!

I just read the Plot outline of "Confessions of a Dangerous Mind".What the ????? the Gong Show host is secretly a CIA agent? OK.

Originally posted by arnisandyz

At the last FCS gathering Ray had mentioned that Rafael was in California doing stunt coregraphy for "Tom's movie". Does anyone know if Tom Kier is actually IN the movie

Could he have meant Tommy Lee Jones, who stars in one of the movies? He did knife fighting in a Steven Seagal movie too of course. I found the knifework in that one rather unrealistic ("Under Siege").

Kayanan is also listed in the credits as the storyboard artist!

Cthulhu

Okay, something I just found out from the Sayoc kali site: both Rafael Kayanan and Thomas Kier are now ranked as Tuhon.

Cthulhu

greetings and respects to all,
i'd like to introduce myself to those of you who do not know me... i am Guro Jeff of Sayoc Kali.

i have been associated with Tuhon Chris since 1997, and have actively promoted and taught Sayoc Kali since that time

some of you may have seen notices of my seminars about the country, i have taught seminars in NY, IL, WA, CA, IN, NH and i often entertain visiting instructors from other states in my classes... most recently someone from Japan!

if there are any questions i may be able to answer about Sayoc Kali, i will do my best to answer them.

it is nice to be here

respects, Guro Jeff

http://www.tribalbladefightingarts.com

Greetings Guro Jeff!!! Is great to have your input on the board. If I may pass the buck that Cthuhu has placed upon me, you are now the premiere authority on Sayoc Kali! Most of my information has come second hand from training with Guro Ray Dionaldo, its great that you have firsthand knowledge from Tuhon Chris. I look forward to it.

Andy

There's a trailer for The Hunted, which is to feature Sayoc Kali! The clips shows a bit of knife work.

I'm definitely gonna see this one.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount/the_hunted/

You'll need Quicktime to view the trailer.

Cthulhu

Hi Cthulhu!

Could you post this in Sports and Entertainment too? The trailer is awesome!!!

Palusut

I just had my first experience with Sayoc Kali when I was sent to Rockland New York on a preaching assignment. I had a private lesson with a Sayoc Kali instructor named Pat Consing (patconsing@sayoc.com) who owns a school down there named Kapatid Martial Arts in Plesantville New York. From the 2 hours that I trained I was absolutely overwhelmed. I had studied at least 7 different Filipino martial arts in Boston, California, and the Philippines, but this was the first time that it seemed so systematic, scientific and complete. Maybe it was also due to how great an instructor Pat is, but I was duly impressed and plan to do further training in this awesome art. What I noticed was how they had studied natural human reflexes and actions down to a science so they knew 100% what a person would do next, but even if you countered their move, your still dead because they added so many surprises. I never expected him to throw the blade into my heart. You can just imagine my shock. My previous training in any art was useless against that tactic. INGENIOUS!!! And that was only my FIRST lesson. Pat was so clear and helpful and PATIENT. I felt so uncoordinated in my first lesson, but after a few hours I couldn't believe how much I picked up. I can't wait until I go down to Rockland again. Till then I'm thinking about checking out some Sayoc practicioneers here in Canada.

Arnisador:

Actuallly the Pambuan system's proper name (according to my information) is:

Pambuan Arnis Tulisan Caballero Mano-Mano

The person who might be coming to teach the seminar in your area is possibly Ama Guro Raffy Pambuan who is the current head of the system I believe. It is the Pamuban family system. Actually the aforementioned book by Mark Wiley has some information about the system's structure.

My instructor here in Maryland is one of Ama Guro Raffy's students and it is some interesting and unusual stuff. Coming from a Modern Arnis background I find it quite interesting. Alot of the same in some places and somewhat radical in others. Very educational.

If you can go to the seminar, you should give it a try. The Pambuan system covers hand, stick, knife, large blade (sword), whip and other weapons as well as combinations.

Let me know if you have any other questions about it and I'll try to answer or will ask my instructor.

Thanks,

Richard Curren

I did, and picked some stuff up!

Was it Ama Guro Raffy. Florida is his home base I believe. What did you think?

Richard Curren

I believe he's based out of Orlando, FL.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Emptyglass
Was it Ama Guro Raffy. Florida is his home base

No, though the instructor was from Florida. See here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1012).

Hey all,

I'm looking for an objective and informed opinion about Sayoc Kali in comparison to other escrima/kali/arnis methods. If you choose to reply to this please include pertinent information regarding your training experience in similar arts as well as your experience with Sayoc.

Thanks in advance.

Good evening, I really get a lot from these forums. Good reading