I have not seen or heard of too many myself.
I have even overheard others say that there are very few that come out or continue to train it.

Any reason why?
How about the exceptions. Who are they and why do they stick it out?
Are the methods different for training women, or with women?
If so, why? And what are the differences?

Just some thoughts.

Vlad's school has 2 women I know of who train there regularily and a few more who travel once in a bit to be there.

I think that the ratio of men to women in any art is low.

Which is crappy because I dig hot babes throwing punches.
:rolleyes:

Call me and we'll talk about this re: the free for all fighting Vlad sometimes has at the school at the end of class.

It's not appropriate for this forum.

I’ve found that it’s actually easier to train women (than men) in Systema because they’re more comfortable with the concept of non-resistance. There is less ego involved and with that comes less tension. Men usually have to be broken first before they can start learning. Women are also typically more aware of their bodies and are more willing to let themselves go to increase their sensitivity.

Why there are so few involved? Psychological conditioning for the most part. Many don’t think they could take being beaten with a stick as well as a man could. They rarely give themselves a chance to surprise themselves.

...women would actually enjoy training in Systema and enjoy all the benefits of it too. I would think it would be easy to introduce the training methods to women and give them the chance to try it for themsleves.
So, where are they?
What is really holding them back from training?
Pychological conditioning? mmmmmmmm, maybe, but I see a lot of women train at other schools, maybe not as many as the men, but there are still a lot out there.
Heck, some schools have an equal, or even more ratio of women.

The few women I have seen who were introduced to Systema loved it, but these were at seminars and there is not really the capacity for steady training there.

I feel like we are missing something here.

As you know Roland, I have participated in a systema seminar with Martin Wheeler. I thought it very kewl, and enjoyed it emencely, and if there was a local instructor I would seriously consider doing some cross training in systema.

The only thing that makes me hesitate is the practise of beating on each other so that you work "past the pain" or however it's put.

Gou and Jay have both explained the purpose behind it and it all sounds very logical. But when I saw an example of it at the seminar when Mr. Wheeler said. "Who wants me to hit them" and all the guys stuck there hands up and did like Horseshack. "Ooh Ooh Me Me" and stood there, one after the other, while Mr. Wheeler beat on them, and I'm not talking love taps either. Just seemed like a lot of testosterone hooey to me.

I didn't see any girl volunteer. I tend to believe that girls are to smart to stand there and let someone beat on them. That's why we are in Martial arts to DEFEND ourselves. I have no problem taking a hit while training or sparring, but I guess you could say that practise intimidates the heck outta me. ;)

But then again that's just my opinion. :D

Dot

Gou and Jay have both explained the purpose behind it and it all sounds very logical. But when I saw an example of it at the seminar when Mr. Wheeler said. "Who wants me to hit them" and all the guys stuck there hands up and did like Horseshack. "Ooh Ooh Me Me" and stood there, one after the other, while Mr. Wheeler beat on them, and I'm not talking love taps either. Just seemed like a lot of testosterone hooey to me.

haha..understandable. When you watch it, it *does* seem like a bunch of dudes getting together and seeing how tough they are. It's honestly completely opposite. It's a confidence building tool. The interesting thing about Systema, is all b.s. stays at the door. You can believe your own hype or the hype that the world sets for you, but in the training, the true you comes out.

Behind the curtain of what we allow the world to see of ourselves, many of us need that boost. When you are taken to your limit...and you continue to press forward, something inside of you changes. The fact that you have reached your limit, believe it or not, allows the ego to settle...and more times then not, dissipate. The fact that you continue to move on, get up and go again builds confidence. It's the idea that even though I've reached my point...the path doesn't just come to a dead end in the road.

If you think watching that is bad...you should hear the stories of Mikhail doing the same thing :D

There have been several ladies who did that part at some of the mini-seminars that Martin has done while up here at various times.
Two where at the camp also, and like myself were trying to give others a chance to feel, and believe.
I am not sure about all the anyone else has told you, but it sounds incomplete. It is way more than what you think it is. Really should not be that much pain.
On a side note...
l also find that 80% who come into the school to watch a class never join, but 80% who participate, always do. I think you are kind of going through the same thing here.

Besides, it is optional, you do not have to do it, unless you are ready for it, I have seen Vlad turn people down and encourage others depending on where he thought they were. Mentally & Emotionaly.

I do not know that much about Systema to give a totaly honest opinion. My only experience is from that one seminar and from what Gou has been telling me. You did a very good job of explaining further Roland, thank you. :asian:

Gou is very excited about Systema, when he talks about it you can see it. He talks about what Vlad has taught him, how it can be used with any martial art to improve your skills. The exercises and workouts. LOL and how Vlad beat him up that last time they trained. Sytema sounds like a really great martial art, though very unique in its forms of training. It may be something I will explore more in the future.

Everyone gets out of Systema what they want.
Or, maybe, even, what they need.

If you were to spend some time with one individual, you would get the proballly get the feelings that they are experiencing, if you were then to spend an equal amount of time with another, thoses feeling would be completlety different.

Even seeing it is not the same as anything else. I, and several of my friends, laughed the first time I watched Vlads first three tapes. Now, I wish i understood them better.
It must be felt. Some arts can be watched, others talked about, but Systema must be experienced, on a physical, mental & emotional level.

Ofcourse these too, are just my personal experiences.

I like it.
:D

In Russia, there are quite a few women learning ROSS; like any martial art (except possibly Tae Bo), markedly fewer than men, but cultural conditioning doesn't really promote physicality for women such as is found in what to most people is seen as fighting. On the other hand, Russian culture (largely due to the Soviet background) has a more equal basis than most Western society.

In the UK there are no senior-level Ross practicioners. It's still a young art here, though, and a lot of women have come to classes for basic self-defence skills (at least one of whom had to - successfully - defend herself within 24 hours of her last class!), and a few more experienced martial artists who've used the Russian training approach to improve their base skills.

We only have one female training regulalry in the enitre group - and she is aged 14. Her movment skills are now very good and what she lacks in power she can usually compensate for in evasion and sensitivity. She'd certainly stand up well against someone in her own age group.
We've had other women come along, but none for more than a few classes. I think some women find it difficult when you start doing ground fighting, for example, or the fact that everything is full contact.
Mind you I think that is a general thing for both men and women - a lot of people seem to prefer standing in line throwing punches into thin air ;-)

...why not let them only get to that part when they feel ready for it? In fact, is that not what an instructor is supposed to do. Help build the confidence of the student until they feel they are ready to move on, learn something new?
Any idiot can get on the ground and roll around, or even just beat others up, or even let themselves be beaten. But what about the average person, who needs a progressive learning enviroment, one where they are made to feel comfortable and move along with the help of their instructor?

Originally posted by Roland
Any idiot can get on the ground and roll around

I'll say...
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Roland

...why not let them only get to that part when they feel ready for it? In fact, is that not what an instructor is supposed to do. Help build the confidence of the student until they feel they are ready to move on, learn something new?
Any idiot can get on the ground and roll around, or even just beat others up, or even let themselves be beaten.

Well thanks.

We don't throw people in at the deep end, we do introduce a lot of things gradually, but the fact remains that even seeing other students doing that sort of work can put people off.

OTOH an instructor is also supposed to help a person ovecome their fears, particularly in Systema, which does sometimes mean being "cruel to be kind". Fair enough, it's not for everyone, but you can't make an omellette etc etc

My posts are not directed at you, but at what I fee lis a lack in what we are all doing. Or, more probally, a lack of understanding.
I am hoping between us all we can enlighten ourselves and help others in the process too.
I am looking for ways to understand for myself, and to pass onto others that I teach. It is kind of a double edge sword that way, sometimes I get lost while looking. Not sure if I am looking for myself, or for my students.
At the end of the day, it is all good to learn.
(I hope)

...why not let them only get to that part when they feel ready for it? In fact, is that not what an instructor is supposed to do. Help build the confidence of the student until they feel they are ready to move on, learn something new?

That's not typically the way Systema works (Well, in seminars maybe, where different backgrounds are taken into account but...). Because Systema is not technique-based, there are no beginner moves or advanced moves.

It's all just movement.

Everyone works on the same drill at the same time. The Students are given a problem and are limited only by their creativity and how comfortable they are with their bodies in order to solve it.

No distinction is made between standing or lying down in terms of fighting. Unless you're in water or you're falling from the sky, you are on the ground. The ground is the least forgiving enemy you'll ever face. Students are taught to love it, "like a dear friend who will never lie to you."

Systema training is very much a sink or swim environment. You have to get your head together and let your body move because you know that when your training partner attacks, he/she is not going to miss you. Granted, movement is done slowly to allow the practitioners to feel their own energy and develop a sence of timing but, to water Systema down in order to make it less intimidating would rob it of the unique value it has.

Any idiot can get on the ground and roll around, or even just beat others up, or even let themselves be beaten. But what about the average person, who needs a progressive learning enviroment, one where they are made to feel comfortable and move along with the help of their instructor?

Agreed, and there are a lot of idiots out there. However, the average person does not have the luxury of being made to feel comfortable when they are learning methods of personal protection. In Systema, people are nurtured and guided, but not carried. There has to be a certain something inherent in the student to drive them to learn, continue and improve.

Systema is not for the average person. It's for those who seek to truly know themselves. Not many people are ready and willing for that. It can be pretty frightening at times. One has to be 'kind of comfortable with discomfort'. Or at least willing to become so for a time.

-Jackal

..you could be saying that Systema training will not really train anyone, just weed out those who are not good enough. I do not think you are saying that, it is just how it might come across.

I have always thought of Systema as a way back to natural movement and being comfortable with yourself, and your fears.
I understand you can not carry anyone through, and that training sahould be a personal experience for eveyone, hence the ending of class in a circle to recount what we wish about class. But it seems to me that there is a lot you can do to help others once you understand that everyone has different things to overcome in their training. Some will get through faster then others, but I do not think we should pass those others over.

Oh yeah, saw 1 female in class yesterday, she was doing way better than me in being able to hold her push ups and do situps. Not sure aout the rest of training, but I know she was in there and very active.

Originally posted by Roland
Oh yeah, saw 1 female in class yesterday, she was doing way better than me in being able to hold her push ups and do situps. Not sure aout the rest of training, but I know she was in there and very active.

I got to work with her a bit.

She hits harder than you.

Ha ha ha!
:rofl:

..you could be saying that Systema training will not really train anyone, just weed out those who are not good enough. I do not think you are saying that, it is just how it might come across.

I was a bit cranky last night when I wrote my post and no, that isn't totally what I meant. :)

My meaning was that Systema training has a way of making one rise to the occasion rather than lie back in the comfort that if you're not paying attention, the other person isn't going to hit you.

If the student is afraid of water but wants to learn how to swim, they can't learn how on the beach. The instructor will be in the water to help them only if they start to drown, not just if they feel uneasy in the water. If you just take baby steps in and you get nervous, you can just wade back to shore. The idea is to make the person feel somewhat uncomfortable, so they don't have a safe and easy out. In that state, the unconscious survival mechanisms that we all have suppressed in our cushioned society begin to emerge. It's those instincts which are then explored and refined so as to prepare the student to rely on himself/herself in a real survival situation.

It's the mindset that gets explored first so that the body can be trained realistically.

As for weeding out those who aren't good enough, that's not the case at all. I've taught small women, people in wheelchairs, a man with cerebral palsy...they all gained tremendously using Systema concepts because they learned how to tailor all movements to their unique situations and then realized that their only limitations were based on their creativity.

My claim was that Systema is not like a sport martial art where people can just go to relax and work out after a hard day and not have to struggle physically or emotionally. To make it such an environment would be a great disservice to those whose professions (protection, law enforcement) depend on the sense of realism maintained in the classroom. (Vladimir said Systema is not a martial art - it is a system of survival - there's a big difference) Many are drawn to The System, myself included, because they feel that it is the last refuge to truly prepare themselves for any hardship or confrontation they might encounter.

I trained for 13 or so years in several different martial arts before finding Systema and was deeply affected by how misled I'd been in some those other systems (where the level of the class was brought down to the student rather than the other way around). I apologize if I seem somewhat hard-edged about the subject - I'm not usually like that. I just get a bit defensive when the concept of "Systema for the masses" is addressed. That's what killed nearly every art taught in America today.
:(

It reminds me of the quote by Van Damme in the movie 'Bloodsport'.

"The Kumite is for the fighters, not for the people who read newspapers."

I know that's kind of a silly comparison, but it's not far off from the truth.

I encourage everyone to study Systema and rise to the occasion. It's taken my skills, abilities and general outlook in life to a place I'd never imagined they could be.

-Jackal

All joking aside, maybe you could give us some real feedback?!

Jackal - I think I understand what you mean. The rise to the occasion was a good thought, and I know you were not saying we are or should be weeding people out.
I just feel that Systema, they way I have been introduced to it, would be a good system to learn for women, and was wondering why there are not many out there. I feel this way pretty much because of the same arguments you give. That is is a personal system of survival, that one must rise to the occasion, and that eveyone's experience in unique & personal.
Really, most martial arts or even self-defense courses, teach people to follow the leader, where Systema asks you to follow yourself.

Originally posted by Jackal
My meaning was that Systema training has a way of making one rise to the occasion rather than lie back in the comfort that if you're not paying attention, the other person isn't going to hit you.
If the student is afraid of water but wants to learn how to swim, they can't learn how on the beach. The instructor will be in the water to help them only if they start to drown, not just if they feel uneasy in the water. If you just take baby steps in and you get nervous, you can just wade back to shore. The idea is to make the person feel somewhat uncomfortable, so they don't have a safe and easy out. In that state, the unconscious survival mechanisms that we all have suppressed in our cushioned society begin to emerge. It's those instincts which are then explored and refined so as to prepare the student to rely on himself/herself in a real survival situation.
It's the mindset that gets explored first so that the body can be trained realistically.
As for weeding out those who aren't good enough, that's not the case at all. I've taught small women, people in wheelchairs, a man with cerebral palsy...they all gained tremendously using Systema concepts because they learned how to tailor all movements to their unique situations and then realized that their only limitations were based on their creativity.
My claim was that Systema is not like a sport martial art where people can just go to relax and work out after a hard day and not have to struggle physically or emotionally. To make it such an environment would be a great disservice to those whose professions (protection, law enforcement) depend on the sense of realism maintained in the classroom. (Vladimir said Systema is not a martial art - it is a system of survival - there's a big difference) Many are drawn to The System, myself included, because they feel that it is the last refuge to truly prepare themselves for any hardship or confrontation they might encounter.
I trained for 13 or so years in several different martial arts before finding Systema and was deeply affected by how misled I'd been in some those other systems (where the level of the class was brought down to the student rather than the other way around). I apologize if I seem somewhat hard-edged about the subject - I'm not usually like that. I just get a bit defensive when the concept of "Systema for the masses" is addressed. That's what killed nearly every art taught in America today.
I encourage everyone to study Systema and rise to the occasion. It's taken my skills, abilities and general outlook in life to a place I'd never imagined they could be.
:iws:
Wow...a great post. Possibly one of the best I have read in a long time. Thank you.

"Systema is not for the average person."

The classes are very intimidating for any newcomer but it's worse for women...not only are we generally smaller and weaker than men, we haven't been conditioned to be physically aggressive.

I don't know why the other women stay, but I enjoy beating on Gou :hammer:


:D Janice

Originally posted by TheLady
"Systema is not for the average person."

True. So many people get frustrated by the lack of a framework that they cannot stay with it. It also isn't an art that lends itself to paying the bills if you want to open a school.

Originally posted by TheLady
The classes are very intimidating for any newcomer but it's worse for women...not only are we generally smaller and weaker than men, we haven't been conditioned to be physically aggressive.

Something that I noticed you have no problem with. For such a petite lady you hit pretty hard.

Imagine this scenario...

Janice - "Hi Doug, how are you today?"

Me - "Great!"

**Janice punches me in the gut and I fall to the floor mewling like a newborn puppy**

Janice - "Great to see you again."

**Vlad walks over and looks at me on the floor writhing in pain**

Vlad - "...breathe..."

**Vlad pats Janice on the shoulder and turns to the rest of the class**

Vlad - "Ok! Let's go!"

Originally posted by TheLady
I don't know why the other women stay, but I enjoy beating on Gou :hammer:
:D Janice

Dear God. Make janice stop hurting me. Amen.
:D

Please feel free to add more as you see fit.
Thank you again.

Hmm... want to get in on this thread but its gone in so many excellent directions.

We don't have too many women, but we have some. Currently NSC is a regular and always there, and we have Vicki who goes to a decent effort to drive up a minimum of once a month. We also have our newest female member (our resident poster Dan's Daughter) who just started last week.

In general like to have women in class, I think it tends to make everyone a liitle better. If you work it right you can use gender roles and prejudice to create excellent training results, while simultaneously using the training to help some people get over those issues.

Its really great when you have women students who don't mind playing with those roles and using them to enhance training and insight. Example... you have a big "tough guy" in class who always uses lots of muscle. I love to put those guys with the smallest women in class. Sometimes the muscle use goes away immediately. Other times a few well placed words (assuming the woman is open to the stuff I mention above) can really do the trick. Usually all you have to say is to the muscle head is... "Gee, She's just a tiny little woman, and you need to use all that strength just to throw her? You'd think you could easily down her without straining?"

That usually decreases the muscle tension right away. Unfortunately there are some women, who'd freak if you said that. Of course they aren't concerned for any one elses training if there like that... and consequently won't last in Systema.

So I find that women in class often create a nice check and balance system for excessive macho crap. Though on occasion, the macho-crap flows backwards, and we have women who pick it up from the guys. :shrug:

Why aren't there more women in martial arts... several reasons. Some of those are:

1) culture hasn't told them that taking care of themselves physically is there job. Its changing some... maybe.

2) most commercial martial arts either cater to men (in design, interest, etc)

3) martial arts that do cater to women either emphasize aspects that aren't very good for fighting/self-defense

4) they are really man hating clubs that perpetuate female victimization, while pretending to fight back against evil men. These clubs while claiming "empowerment" point out the defciencies in females rather than strengths and and teach them to ramp up their anger... leaving them just as frightened and a lot more angry

5) There is a gender inequity in classes, and women are treated like second class partners.

6) Men and Women are differnt beings, they have dofferent strengths and weakness in general. However, political correctness without the temperence of wisdom has created a situation where everybody has to pretend they are "equal". hey aren't, so any given class that attempts to pretend they are, will leave one of the sexes with subpar training. Being that men are the primary consumer, women tend to get the short end of the stick.

None of these things are really good for getting women to stick with a martial art learning process. On the bright side, all those issues tend to really weed out the crowd, and those that stay are usually exceptional people.

Arthur

Arthur and I were just talking about this the other day...

:soapbox:

I can't speak for every woman, but for myself I think there are many varied reasons why there aren't a lot of women practicing Systema.

As many have already pointed out, the ratio of women to men in any MA is low. I think there is a societal stigma, which becomes incorporated as a personal stigma, in most women.

Consider that most of the role models for girls/women (via media and entertainment) is conflicting:the "ideal" woman is a 6'2", blond haired, blue eyed, 100 lb supermodel-sex-kitten without a brain in her head; OR is a CEO of a profitable company, a mom to 3 perfectly behaved children, and a wife for all men to envy. And let's face it; even that successful CEO gets jealous when her man gets whiplash looking at the supermodel strolling by on the beach.

What does this tell us? It pays to be stupid and beautiful, and let someone else take care of you and do all the hard work. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm not saying I subscribe to it... but you've got to know it exists. I have met women who's only purpose in life was to "land a rich man." It's sad, really. This is not a woman who will be interested in working hard to learn to defend herself... she may, however, take Tae Bo in an effort to stay stick-thin, and convince herself that that will protect her as well.

Even in the more independent women, there is still a some "old school" philosophy about a woman's role in life. I know plenty of women who work hard, pay their own way, and are fairly successful. However, the thought of learning to fight to defend themselves is distasteful. That's what they have boyfriends for. With equal rights comes equal responsibility.

Then, there are the women who do want to learn to defend themselves... or at least they say that is what they want. However, they don't want to face their fears; and let's face it- you can't really defend yourself if you can't master your own fear. There are a lot of people, men and women, with "baggage"; and many lead productive lives despite it. This is just one of those areas where you can't suppress all those issues and act like they don't exist.

I don't think that the instructors are to blame for there not being a lot of women in Systema. It is a tough hurdle for most women to overcome just to want to learn to fight, and actually follow through; an instructor can't make a woman want that in earnest. And when you consider that millions of women pay billions of dollars for the "easy way out diet pill" rather than working out, most martial arts instructors will have their work cut out for them when a woman signs up for a class. We have a track record for looking for the "easy way".

Also, many women live with denial (women who stay with abusive men, comes to mind). These women "want" to believe something so much, that they will ignore the obvious evidence which would refute it.

"My scale must be broken...
Even if he hits me, I KNOW he really loves me...
The last 5 products I bought didn't work, but a doctor endorses THIS one!...
But this guy told me that in just one year I'd be a black belt!...
etc."

This, unfortunately, leads them to believe advertisements for the latest trends or quick fixes.

And lets not forget how many women buy into the courses which pander to their emotions of fear and anger, as Arthur pointed out? They tell women that they will empower them, and then turn them into the agressors which they initially hated. Now they're really pissed off, and they're going to start a fight they can't finish.

I could go on and on, but I think that I have probably suitably horrified enough of you with my candor.

Jennifer

I could go on and on, but I think that I have probably suitably horrified enough of you with my candor.

I guess that's one of the reasons I asked you to marry me.... great thing bout boards like this... NSC and I live together... but we haven't talked about this... cool to see what tyhe anonymous version of people you "know" ... "think"/

Arthur

Originally posted by NoSuchChick
It pays to be stupid and beautiful

I'll say, but I wouldn't want to live any other way.
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by NoSuchChick
Arthur and I were just talking about this the other day...

:soapbox:

I can't speak for every woman, but for myself I think there are many varied reasons why there aren't a lot of women practicing Systema.

As many have already pointed out, the ratio of women to men in any MA is low. I think there is a societal stigma, which becomes incorporated as a personal stigma, in most women.

Consider that most of the role models for girls/women (via media and entertainment) is conflicting:the "ideal" woman is a 6'2", blond haired, blue eyed, 100 lb supermodel-sex-kitten without a brain in her head; OR is a CEO of a profitable company, a mom to 3 perfectly behaved children, and a wife for all men to envy. And let's face it; even that successful CEO gets jealous when her man gets whiplash looking at the supermodel strolling by on the beach.

What does this tell us? It pays to be stupid and beautiful, and let someone else take care of you and do all the hard work. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm not saying I subscribe to it... but you've got to know it exists. I have met women who's only purpose in life was to "land a rich man." It's sad, really. This is not a woman who will be interested in working hard to learn to defend herself... she may, however, take Tae Bo in an effort to stay stick-thin, and convince herself that that will protect her as well.

Even in the more independent women, there is still a some "old school" philosophy about a woman's role in life. I know plenty of women who work hard, pay their own way, and are fairly successful. However, the thought of learning to fight to defend themselves is distasteful. That's what they have boyfriends for. With equal rights comes equal responsibility.

Then, there are the women who do want to learn to defend themselves... or at least they say that is what they want. However, they don't want to face their fears; and let's face it- you can't really defend yourself if you can't master your own fear. There are a lot of people, men and women, with "baggage"; and many lead productive lives despite it. This is just one of those areas where you can't suppress all those issues and act like they don't exist.

I don't think that the instructors are to blame for there not being a lot of women in Systema. It is a tough hurdle for most women to overcome just to want to learn to fight, and actually follow through; an instructor can't make a woman want that in earnest. And when you consider that millions of women pay billions of dollars for the "easy way out diet pill" rather than working out, most martial arts instructors will have their work cut out for them when a woman signs up for a class. We have a track record for looking for the "easy way".

Also, many women live with denial (women who stay with abusive men, comes to mind). These women "want" to believe something so much, that they will ignore the obvious evidence which would refute it.

"My scale must be broken...
Even if he hits me, I KNOW he really loves me...
The last 5 products I bought didn't work, but a doctor endorses THIS one!...
But this guy told me that in just one year I'd be a black belt!...
etc."

This, unfortunately, leads them to believe advertisements for the latest trends or quick fixes.

And lets not forget how many women buy into the courses which pander to their emotions of fear and anger, as Arthur pointed out? They tell women that they will empower them, and then turn them into the agressors which they initially hated. Now they're really pissed off, and they're going to start a fight they can't finish.

I could go on and on, but I think that I have probably suitably horrified enough of you with my candor.

Jennifer

WONDERFUL post, Jen!

Great post.

The only thing I saw that I myself might want to question would be about not blaming the Instructors.
While I am not saying that they should be blamed, not all of them anyway, but it seems to me it is the instructor's job to help the student become aware, and guide them, and be paitient and understanding and help students through whatever they need to overcome. We all have things we need to overcome I think. It seems to me that awareness is really the key. Being able to identify and help someone through what ever it is.
Training should be about discovery, about one self, and others.
I believe your instructor should be a guide, and coach more so than a teacher.
I do not beleive people should be spoon fed either, but it seems to me that most instructors take the easy way out when teaching, and in a lot of cases only the physically strong, gifted or stupid (that would be 'me') ones who like to be beat make it through more than a couple of classes. So I just wonder about Martial Arts in general, and how we can improve this.
I really enjoy The System, and I wonder how I can help others.

I think I may have gone off a bit here and will end it for now, I hope we can get some more possitive feedback from everyone here.
Hope I have not offended anyone, just trying to learn and grow, for both myself and my students. All of whom I consider to be just as important, if not more so, than family!

While I am not saying that they should be blamed, not all of them anyway, but it seems to me it is the instructor's job to help the student become aware, and guide them, and be paitient and understanding and help students through whatever they need to overcome.

I agree with this to an extent. But honestly, a man doesn't know the issues that a woman faces. Sure...we can be told, read about them, what have you...but do we ever truly understand?

Even some of the best teachers in the world would have people crossing the lines of gender and preparing them for what they will face.

I agree 100%



But I also say we could probally all do a lot better.

Agreed!

I think teachers should be like a coach or an advisor but not in anything other than the art they teach.

There are to many teachers out there who overstep their bounds and use their position to make demands or decisions for people that are not theirs to make. The sad thing is that there are only too many students willing to trade off these decisions and relinquish their power to these teachers.

Often the ones most affected are women. I'm not sure if this is because of the patriarichal nature of our society but there seems to be a power trade off that people fall into in the field of martial arts, which women are notably affected by.

To top off all of this there is nothing stopping any tom, dick, or harry, from opening his own martial arts school. A piece of cloth around one's waist does not ensure a good teacher. In fact, there are far too many poor quality teachers out there.

Which is one of the reasons I like systema. To be recognized by Vlad, you have to go to Vlad. If you're teaching systema and you're not acknowledging or have been trained by Vlad or his instructors you're soon found out. It just makes it harder to cheat the system as many martial artists seem to do.
:soapbox:

Gou is so right!
Really, it is just another reason for women to be be very careful and cautious of martial arts schools and instructors.

While I think there has to be a healthy chain of command, and that as an instructor you have to be careful on who you let get too close too soon, off the floor, most of my students are also very good friends.

I agree that there are some bad instructors out there, I've seen my share (although, I have to say, not so much with Systema). This only contributes in a small way to the lack of women in MAs.

There are those instructors that honestly believe that they are teaching "the" martial art, and it's just not (these instructors are at least "honest" in their teaching). There are instructors who don't really fully understand what they teach (via the fast-track to teaching method), and they pass off poor teaching as a fault of a clumsy new student. Then there are just plain old dishonest instructors just out to make a buck.

As far as women goes, most women see teachers as authority figures. And just like with mechanics, lawyers, and doctors, they usually wind up getting taken for a ride and a LOT of money if they don't challenge the old fashioned "thou shalt not question thine instructor" philosophy. If I'm not wrong (please correct me if I am) I believe that there are some MAs in which it is unforgivable for ANYONE to challenge the teachings of the instructor...

I think there is also an issue with low self-confidence/esteem in women when dealing with instructors, where women feel, "who am I to question that what he says? HE'S the instructor." I have found that all too often women have to be TAUGHT to stand up and say, "I disagree". This is a problem, as no dishonest instructor (or fraud of any kind for that matter) will ever tell a student that it's ok to disagree with him, and/or encourage her to do so. Catch 22.

In all honesty, though, I feel that most women wouldn't even know if they had a good or bad instructor, so that point is kind of moot. That is the truth of all people though: if you have never done it before (which is why you approach an instructor for lessons) you can't tell whether he's good or bad: you've got nothing to compare him to. It is only the few who research it well beforehand (which is rare), or the few who stay with it long enough to know that what they are learning isn't as high of a quality as something else they've seen, that recognize a "good" instructor.

However, I think that most women approach MAs as another form of excercise, or for self-defense as a post-traumatic knee-jerk reaction: and in either situation, they usually won't stay with it, regardless of how good the instructor or art is.

It's a shame. I get much more out of Systema than any of my girlfriends get out of their "post trauma" therapy, yoga, and aerobics, all put together.

You can lead a horse to water...

Jennifer

Originally posted by GouRonin
Which is one of the reasons I like systema. To be recognized by Vlad, you have to go to Vlad. If you're teaching systema and you're not acknowledging or have been trained by Vlad or his instructors you're soon found out. It just makes it harder to cheat the system as many martial artists seem to do.

But the problem with this is that it doesn't scale--it's good for you that the system is held to a high standard but it makes it harder for it to spread to where I am! There's a trade-off, and if I was near the source I'd feel the same as you I'm sure but from here it doesn't sound as good!

Originally posted by arnisador
But the problem with this is that it doesn't scale--it's good for you that the system is held to a high standard but it makes it harder for it to spread to where I am! There's a trade-off, and if I was near the source I'd feel the same as you I'm sure but from here it doesn't sound as good!

Dunno what to tell you. I myself have traveled to find what I want and can get. I appreciate that Systema has a higher standard than many martial arts I have experienced. I look at the Kenpo schools here in town and I wince with pain. Arnisador, you and I have conversations regarding our opinions on Kenpo in your town and mine. Would I want this to happen to Systema?

Access to Systema instructors is much better than it was 3-4 years ago. If you live in the USA, you can probably find one within a 6 hour drive from most places.

This is a lot better than it was... and it means people can get on with some study. Its not unreasonabel to drive 6 hours once or twice a month to get quality instruction in a quality art.

Systema is one of those arts where a little instruction and a lot of homework can really pay off.

Most instructors are aware of the issue of limited access, and go out of there way to treat long distance visitors with a little extra respect and attention.

Arthur

Originally posted by GouRonin
Would I want this to happen to Systema?

Nope, and I understand. But, as I'd like to know more about it, my take on it is different!

There's a woman in my class who is very small, but she picks up stuff very quickly, and is already quite soft. She has some conditioning (not just cultural either) to overcome, but she is making great strides. I agree with the cultural influence being a factor, but as Arthur said, that can be used.

Besides the factors keeping women out of MA in general, there's also the fact that systema is not well-known. Most people who know of it are already involved in MA in which women are underrrperesented in the first place, and they represent a fraction of the MA community as a whole, ie most MA people have not heard of systema.

That said, I believe that with its emphasis on relaxation and whole body power, as well as the guideline of not forcing the issue (a very guy-ish thing), systema could be perhaps the ideal MA for females. I'll never forget getting mauled by Rybko's female students, one a tiny 15 year-old.

I can't wait to train with Mikhail's female students! From the few videos I've seen, they're fluid, graceful and brutally effective
:)

As for women in Systema, I can't even get my male friends to join a class...they take one look at my bruises and back away slowly :lol:

Janice

Originally posted by TheLady
As for women in Systema, I can't even get my male friends to join a class...they take one look at my bruises and back away slowly :lol:
Janice

That's because you're a killer.
:D

Welcome Jellyman!

Arthur

That's because you're a killer.

Gou, I think you have me :angel: confused with someone else...

:)

I CALL LIAR ON YOU!

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
:rofl:

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but I'm new to this forum and I just stumbled on this topic and couldn't resist adding my two cents. I thought it might be good for people to hear another Systema gal's point of view on the art.

Why aren't there more women in Systema? I think there are a ton of reasons. As NSC pointed out, there is a social stigma involved. It's still not socially accepted that women can, should, or want to protect themselves. That's the man's job. Or if you do, you must be one of those femme nazi's that don't need a man at all.

I always get the shocked, "YOU take Martial Arts???? You don't seem the type!" or "I can't picture you doing that!" What exactly is that supposed to mean? I'm not the "type" to defend myself? Also, no offense guys, but I don't think many women training in the martial arts get ongoing support from their men. A lot of men feel threatened by a woman's desire to learn to protect herself. I've heard men tell women, "Oh, Honey, I can teach you all you need to know," or "That's what I'm here for." Unless both partners are training, men tend to get weird about it.

More reasons? I think both Arthur and NSC hit it on the head. Few women get past their own personal issues and how those issues affect their training. I know women that can't fathom taking a self-defense class for fear of breaking a nail. Also those women with the "I'll look pretty and he'll take care of me" attitudes that assume their men will protect and take care of them. Also those women that cannot face their own fears so live from one state of denial to another. Right on, Jennifer!

Those that do get past all that stuff, and unfortunately there aren't many, deal with EXACTLY what Arthur described:

Why aren't there more women in martial arts... several reasons. Some Why aren't there more women in martial arts... several reasons. Some of
those are:

1) culture hasn't told them that taking care of themselves physically is there job. Its changing some... maybe.

2) most commercial martial arts either cater to men (in design, interest,
etc)

3) martial arts that do cater to women either emphasize aspects that aren't very good for fighting/self-defense

4) they are really man hating clubs that perpetuate female victimization, while pretending to fight back against evil men. These clubs while claiming "empowerment" point out the defciencies in females rather than strengths and and teach them to ramp up their anger... leaving them just as frightened and
a lot more angry

5) There is a gender inequity in classes, and women are treated like second class partners.

6) Men and Women are differnt beings, they have dofferent strengths and weakness in general. However, political correctness without the temperence of wisdom has created a situation where everybody has to pretend they are "equal". hey aren't, so any given class that attempts to pretend they are,
will leave one of the sexes with subpar training. Being that men are the primary consumer, women tend to get the short end of the stick.

In my opinion, #5 & #6 are the most common problems women find with Systema, but those factors are getting better with each seminar I attend. In San Diego I didn't have any trouble finding partners, which was really refreshing.

I have been learning Systema for a while now and loving it. I attend every seminar I can and this August will be my second trip to Russia. I think it's a shame that more women are not involved. In my opinion, Systema is perfect for women. As Arthur pointed out, we are not "equal" and a lot of women can't admit that. Women are typically smaller and weaker (muscles only :) )than men but a lot of them jump on an equality soapbox and pretend that doesn't matter. IT DOES MATTER. When a woman is learning to protect herself she must realize that she's most likely going to be up against a bigger, stronger man with intention on his side. She must identify her strengths and weaknesses and use them accordingly. I get so aggravated with
Martial Arts that convince women that they can protect themselves by using force on force. Or women that parade around with the machismo that is transparent even on men. Vladimir and I have had several discussions about women protecting themselves and he always stresses to me that women don't need to become men to be effective at protecting themselves. Systema never requires a woman to use force against force. As someone already pointed out, we are usually very receptive to learning the relaxed style of striking, the fluid body movements, and evasive maneuvers. Women play by different rules when fighting, and in San Diego Vladimir was showing me ways to "finish it quicker" BECAUSE I'm a woman. There's no playing around when it comes to women fighting men.

To me, a woman doing Systema has the potential to be more fluid, graceful, and brutally effective without ever losing her femininity. That's my goal, anyway! ;)

Well put Sabrina :cool:

I want my wife to learn Systema cause it looks like her jobs going to be taking her out of town more often now. I've told her that it's not like a traditional martial art and that it would be perfect for her or any women to learn.

Now to go put some of that bruise cream on from your elbow strikes in San Diego :(


:eek:


Klondike

This is an awesome thread!!! Great posts with lots of experience and insight. I have a few thoughts I would like to share related to some of the postings… They’re a little disorganized as this thread has gone in so many directions…

Kenpo Girl wrote:

The only thing that makes me hesitate is the practise of beating on each other so that you work "past the pain" or however it's put. Gou and Jay have both explained the purpose behind it and it all sounds very logical. But when I saw an example of it at the seminar when Mr. Wheeler said. "Who wants me to hit them" and all the guys stuck there hands up and did like Horseshack. "Ooh Ooh Me Me" and stood there, one after the other, while Mr. Wheeler beat on them, and I'm not talking love taps either. Just seemed like a lot of testosterone hooey to me.

I have been learning Systema for almost three months now (time flies when you’re having fun). Up until last night I used to say the same thing about it being a lot of testosterone thing. There were a couple of reasons for this…

1) I didn’t understand why they were doing it and…
2) I was scared sh**less about it being done to me.

Learning how to take a hit such as you describe is optional (from the classes I’ve seen). After talking to TheLady last night while we watched one of the visitors’ to Vlad’s gallantly going through this “training” I came to a couple of conclusions. She explained it to me as learning how to breathe out the pain when getting a hit. Immediately I finally clued in and realized how useful this could be. Last week while training I got kicked a little harder than usual and had the wind knocked out of me. I continued to work with my partner trying to breathe and had immense trouble keeping myself upright. As distracted as I was trying to catch my breath I probably took any number of “finishing” hits (had they been full contact). So I daresay that I need to learn this technique of breathing through the hit if I truly want to increase my “survivability” skills. That being said… I’m not ready yet and that’s OK. It’s a voluntary thing and when I’m ready I will. Nobody, in any Systema class, stands you up against a wall and pounds on you to train you to take a hit (well…unless you ask J).

Roland wrote:

Everyone gets out of Systema what they want. Or, maybe, even, what they need.

There is no truer statement for me. I’ll give one brief example. I asked to learn to defend myself against a knife. What I was really asking for was to overcome fear… I just didn’t know it. One of my instructors did. I got what I needed but not how I wanted or asked for it. I ended up facing my fear in a totally unexpected manner… and guess what??? It was hard but definitely what I needed. And in the end… I got what I wanted too.

Jackal wrote:

In Systema, people are nurtured and guided, but not carried. There has to be a certain something inherent in the student to drive them to learn, continue and improve.

and NSC wrote:

Then, there are the women who do want to learn to defend themselves... or at least they say that is what they want. However, they don't want to face their fears; and let's face it- you can't really defend yourself if you can't master your own fear.

Absolutely. Nothing worth having is easy. Life’s not easy. Neither is Systema… nor should it be as it teaches you to deal with life.

Arthur wrote:

However, political correctness without the temperence of wisdom has created a situation where everybody has to pretend they are "equal". hey aren't, so any given class that attempts to pretend they are, will leave one of the sexes with subpar training.

and Sabrina wrote:

Women are typically smaller and weaker (muscles only )than men but a lot of them jump on an equality soapbox and pretend that doesn't matter. IT DOES MATTER. When a woman is learning to protect herself she must realize that she's most likely going to be up against a bigger, stronger man with intention on his side. She must identify her strengths and weaknesses and use them accordingly. I get so aggravated with Martial Arts that convince women that they can protect themselves by using force on force.

I am usually the only female in my class. This generally makes me the smallest person there. I am not a man nor do I want to be one. Nor do I want to be trained like one.

Let me explain… I have done other martial arts where I have learned how to block, strike and use preformed moves to get out of holds and chokes. Let me tell you… not a one of them worked when I came up against a guy twice my size with bad intent. The scenario training we did was geared towards men. Ie when I guy comes up and starts pushing you and calling you names… you should do this. Guys do not attack women like this!!! Systema teaches me how to use my size to my advantage. There are no techniques to learn… just different ways. I am learning how to move, how to escape… whatever it takes to survive. There is no right way or wrong way. Systema teaches you to find your way (through guidance and direction with lots of creativity and ideas).

As to why more women don’t take Systema… my opinion… FEAR!!! But if there is any female out there interested, take a deep breath and just go. You will learn to work with your fear and put it in its place… which is definitely not in any Systema class that I have been to. No one has ever intentionally hurt me in any class and training is progressive. In such a short time I am a much happier and confident person. I also have not turned aggressive from too much testosterone influence nor have I turned into a passive-aggressive man-hater. I am still very much a female who likes to do her nails, dress nicely, etc. etc.

My humble but passionate opinion… Respectfully yours,

Kddk

PS Too bad this thread is not on the Systema Forum. It addresses a lot of questions and concerns women have.

Edited at user's request. -Arnisador

KDDK,

If you would like to post a link to it on the RMA forum, you have official permission to do so. I'll PM you the details.

Arthur (Site Admin out of his jurisdiction;) )

Wow this thread has taken off once again, with lots of new and great information, thank you all.

I think that most martial arts do not address the mental and emotional aspects of training and self-defense, they just jump in with the physical act of training. And yet our mental and emotional traits probally affect us more than any other physical 'problems'.

I believe that Systema does cover this in everyday training, so much so that any class can be an emotional, or phsycological rollercoaster ride.

Learning to face ones own individual fears is probally one of the biggest challenges, any others than you think worth mentioning?

Originally posted by Arthur
Arthur (Site Admin out of his jurisdiction;) )

We appreciate you sharing on our site! I lurk at the Russian Martial Art Web Board (http://russianmartialart.org/forum/phpBB2/). The "Featured Posts" archive is an idea I'd like to adopt here.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Cool arnisador, are you there under the same name or "undercover"?


:eek:


Klondike

Originally posted by Klondike93
Cool arnisador, are you there under the same name or "undercover"?

I am not even registered--I drop in as a Guest and try to get more of an idea about the RMA. I visit maybe once a week and look for interesting threads!

Thanks Kddk for posting the link to the Russianmartialart forum.

Thanks Arthur for approving it.

I now have a deeper understanding why my wife doesn't want to join me in learning systema. In addition to the excellent points brought up already, she said that she didn't want any other sweaty men touching her except me. She did study arnis with me and Combat Aikido. She will punch me, however, whenever I need to feel relaxed.

Rommel said:
She will punch me, however, whenever I need to feel relaxed.

Now THAT'S love! :D

Jennifer

Rommel,

Thanks for your input! I've heard similar responses from a lot of guys trying to convince their wives to train -- some ex-martial artists, some not.

Why, do you know, did your wife train with you in Arnis and Combat Aikido and not in Systema? Did she have a bad experience in one or both of those arts that made her lose interest? I'm not very familiar with other arts, so I'm not sure what her training was like. The sweaty men thing is always a valid point :) but I think we encounter that to some degree in any art.

This is a great thread, and I'd like to keep it alive with some other points of view -- maybe those that choose not to take Systema would share their side -- even ex-martial artists? We rarely get to hear from women AFTER the fact why they REALLY quit. We can only speculate. . . and I think that's how this post probably originated!
:shrug:

We took three classes of arnis until the male instructor accidently hit his wife, his assistant, in the eye with a stick. Nothing serious, but enough to make us find other pursuits.

When she took Combat Aikido, it was because we hired a private instructor who was the daughter of the Chief Instructor. She earned two belt levels until we moved to Canada.

I do show her a few things I picked up from my systema classes, but mainly a few techniques that Vladimir showed, ways to get out of certain holds just in case she might need it in the future.

Actually, the one I am training the most is my 6 year old daughter. I make it into a game and she loves it.

The sweaty men thing is always a valid point :)

Sorry about that :(


:eek:


Klondike

Arnisidor said:
I am not even registered--I drop in as a Guest and try to get more of an idea about the RMA.

If you register, I can make a special rank title for you of "Visiting Admin". See my first day off in 2 weeks, and I don't know what to do with myself:D

Arthur

I registered, but no special rank is necessary!

Today there were the most women I ever saw in class! A total of 3, The Lady, KDDK, and Prisca from Switzerzerland. Are there more in the satellite schools that train at any one time? I'm asking because I'm still trying to convince my wife to take up the art and I want to prove to her that there are a lot out there.

We have a woman in our club who is doing quite well.

Rommel:

We have two women on Tuesday nights (I am one of them) and three females (including me) in our Saturday class (one is 12 years old- and doing great). But we do have some others stop in occassionally.

Jennifer

Hey Rommel,

Maybe you should try, "It's better to lead than to follow" for your argument. ;)

BTW: There were "4" of us in a night class last week. :D
I also have a feeling you'll be seeing some new faces at Mikhail's seminar.

Janice

Everyone knows that Systema has the hottest babes who can actually fight.

It's like, a fact. The sky is blue, water is wet, systema has hot babes who can fight, and d@mn it...you just can't get any hotter than that.

:iws:

hot babes who can fight - isn't that a tautology?

Yes.
:rolleyes:

Glad I am not the only one who thinks this way.
:D

KDDK started a post on the Systema board 2 months ago, by refrencing this thread and including a link to it. While the thread has died down here on martialtalk, it seems to have continued over on the Systema board.

Interesting to see how a change in venue changed the flavour of the thread, especially since the flavours seem to be reverersed from what I'd expect between a general martial art board and a style specfic board.

At anyrate... I thought it might be interesting to swing the conversation back over here in light of what's been said on the continuation of the thread over on the Systema board.

The link to the thread is:

http://russianmartialart.org/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1463&start=0

This sort of reminds of when you get a six part comic story with the first 2 parts in Batman, the next two in Justice League and then the resolution back in Batman. Kind of neat.

Arthur

SYSTEMA/New York counts 3 female's within it's group.

Yes, definitely a different flavour over on the other board.

Is there any tradition of Systema being studied by women in the Soviet Union? Were only men in the military exposed to it or was there a group of women who were trained in it also?

Speaking for ROSS, it's fairly male-heavy, but there are some women; the ratio stays the same even to the top. The women there are mostly ex-army or police. And a few sambistas and judoka thrown in for good measure.

I trained in Russia in 2001 - and there were a few women that were in Mikhail Ryabco's class. They were quite good - as good as the men in most part.

NYCRonin is correct.

I won't mention any names, but I've heard they kicked some of the senior students butts really good and some were only in their teens. Shows that systema is the ideal art for men and women alike.

That teenage girl kicked my sorry ass quite a bit. I don't consider myself a senior, though. There was a red-haired adult woman, quite lithe, who kicked my but about as fast and easily as MR's senior male students.

John - the fact that you could admit that...makes me respect you all the more.
I look foward to 'working' with you over the weekend (at 'The Gathering') very much!