Kukkiwon 10th Dans...who are they?

[IcemanSK]

Before the Kukkiwon re-vamped their site, they listed how many people were given each dan rank through out the world. They broke it down by country & then the total (eg. 10, 654 3rd dan in USA 21,876 Worldwide).

They had a listing for 10 th Dans given. That number was 52 or 53. I can only think of 3 people who I'm aware of that have received them (& one I'm not sure of) GM Park, Hae Man, GM Uhm, Woon Kyu (KKW president) are two. I believe GM Jhoon Rhee to be another, but I'm not sure. Does anyone know who any of the others are? It would be an interesting piece of trivia.

[terryl965]

Tom I know one thing for sure it is not me.

[IcemanSK]

Tom I know one thing for sure it is not me.

Yeah, I don't have the "Golden ticket" either.......yet:mst:

[exile]

What I wonder is, who actually confers tenth dan rank on you... is there some kind of council of 10th dans that does this? Because otherwise you would have 9th dans at most conferring 10th dan status, which doesn't really seem cricket.

I had had the impression that 10th was an honorary posthumous thing... guess I that way wrong!

[allpet]

Hong, Chong Soo. Former Moo Duk Kwan grandmaster. Died about 7 years ago.

[FearlessFreep]

Yeah, I don't have the "Golden ticket" either.......yet:mst:

Don't be in a hurry...I hear they are only awarded posthumously

[allpet]

No. Hong, Chong Soo got it while he was alive.

[TKDmel]

I had had the impression that 10th was an honorary posthumous thing... guess I that way wrong!

I've been to the Kukkiwon website, and according to it, there is only one way to achieve 10th dan...posthumously.

[IcemanSK]

I thought that they were all awarded posthumously as well, until I met GM Park, Hae Man. I would guess that most often they are awarded after death.

As to who awards them, it is the Kukkiwon itself. There is no test for it. It has to do with service in the advancement of Taekwondo. There are 2 ways to receive a 9th Dan: A) By award of the Kukkiwon B) By test a pannel of 3 judges of high rank at the Kukkiwon.

[IcemanSK]

Hong, Chong Soo. Former Moo Duk Kwan grandmaster. Died about 7 years ago.

Well, that's 3 that we can say for sure.

Was he your instructor, Allpet?

[exile]

I thought that they were all awarded posthumously as well, until I met GM Park, Hae Man. I would guess that most often they are awarded after death.

As to who awards them, it is the Kukkiwon itself. There is no test for it. It has to do with service in the advancement of Taekwondo. There are 2 ways to receive a 9th Dan: A) By award of the Kukkiwon B) By test a pannel of 3 judges of high rank at the Kukkiwon.

But what I wonder is, who at the KKW is `authorized' to elevate someone to that rank... is there a special tribunal, as it were, which itself kind of has the collective status of 10th dan?

TKDmel's information is also interesting... there seems some kind of information disconnection going on here.

[Brad Dunne]

From my understanding, the two ways are 1) Posthumously and 2) Head or Grandmaster of a Kwan. There is a council of sorts and thats the head of the Kwans, who are supposedly ranked at 10th Dan. They will confer a 10th Dan ranking in conjunction with Kukkiwon approval. From my understanding, this action is rare, especially for someone who does not assume the head of a Kwan and is still alive.

[exile]

From my understanding, the two ways are 1) Posthumously and 2) Head or Grandmaster of a Kwan. There is a council of sorts and thats the head of the Kwans, who are supposedly ranked at 10th Dan. They will confer a 10th Dan ranking in conjunction with Kukkiwon approval. From my understanding, this action is rare, especially for someone who does not assume the head of a Kwan and is still alive.

Brad, that kind of has the ring of truth... so then my question is, how do we get fifty plus 10th dans out of that?

[allpet]

Well, that's 3 that we can say for sure.

Was he your instructor, Allpet?

I heard that the five kwan jangs from the five original kwans got 10. dan. Three of them posthumously.

He was my instructors instructor.

[Brad Dunne]

Brad, that kind of has the ring of truth... so then my question is, how do we get fifty plus 10th dans out of that?

My guess would be "ego's gone wind"........ Make up your own kwan = 10th Dan status,...........Start your own TKD organization = 10th Dan status..........Just make up your own conglomeration of stuff, call it TKD and woop de do, another 10th Dan is born. In fact, while their at it, mite as well throw in 5 or 6 other styles and give themselves some super high rank in them also. Ahhhhhhhhhhh! pride. Sadly, most if not all of these folks that do this, really think that everybody is honestly impressed and believes that they were actually able to accomplish all that in less than one lifetime. Such is the tarnishment of rank in general, for it deminishes the value for those that do it right.

[exile]

Such is the tarnishment of rank in general, for it deminishes the value for those that do it right.

You got that right... what's so strange is, at one time, in a lot of cases, there really wasn't much of a difference in `style', or in the systematic technical content between two kwans, but just more in the nature of different approaches to training, or the preference of the kwan founder for certain exercises or ways of doing things---someone prefers a double knifehand lower block to a double closed fist lower block, or a side kick in place of a turning kick, and bingo, ten years later it's an article of hotly contested faith fueling the rivalry among a bunch of MA schools.

Kacey and a couple of other people had some nice examples on a recent thread of the extremely tenuous basis for certain `hallmark' characteristics of ITF TKD distinguishing it from WTF/KKW TKD. So many cases of distinctions without real differences... and as you say, probably a lot of the intensity comes from egos and vanity.

[IcemanSK]

Brad, that kind of has the ring of truth... so then my question is, how do we get fifty plus 10th dans out of that?

My guess would be "ego's gone wind"........ Make up your own kwan = 10th Dan status,...........Start your own TKD organization = 10th Dan status..........Just make up your own conglomeration of stuff, call it TKD and woop de do, another 10th Dan is born. In fact, while their at it, mite as well throw in 5 or 6 other styles and give themselves some super high rank in them also. Ahhhhhhhhhhh! pride. Sadly, most if not all of these folks that do this, really think that everybody is honestly impressed and believes that they were actually able to accomplish all that in less than one lifetime. Such is the tarnishment of rank in general, for it deminishes the value for those that do it right.

But Brad, the "roll your own kwan" 10th dans would only explain the fakes. It wouldn't explain the 50-some-odd KKW recognized folks.

It still is interesting that it's hard to come up with who's on that list of 53.

[TraditionalTKD]

I would take the whole 10th Dan thing with a grain of salt, because like anything else in martial arts it gets overblown and overhyped-people claiming 10th Dan to suit their ego.
I don't believe for a minute there are 52 or 53 10th Dans out there. There are, I'm sure, far fewer. And awarded posthumously to those who have greatly contributed to the propagation and development of Kukkiwon TKD. The official Kukkiwon Dan system only goes up to 9th Dan, for those who have contributed to the worldwide development of Tae Kwon Do. By definition, not many of them will exist. Although the WTF suffers from rank inflation like any other organization. So you get glorified ex-jocks and self promoting hacks claiming 9th and 10th Dan to further their egos. What is claimed and what is real are usually very different.

[andyjeffries]

The official Kukkiwon Dan system only goes up to 9th Dan


Wrong - Article 8 of the promotion test regulations on the Kukkiwon web site (and printed on page 762 of the Kukkiwon Textbook) give the age limit for 10th Dan - http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01


And article 11 states that the poomsae to be tested for 10th Dan is "by decision of the Promotion test Commission" (page 764 of the Kukkiwon Textbook and further down the link provided above)

10th Dan is a bonafide rank provided it's certified by the Kukkiwon.

[IcemanSK]

Wrong - Article 8 of the promotion test regulations on the Kukkiwon web site (and printed on page 762 of the Kukkiwon Textbook) give the age limit for 10th Dan - http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01


And article 11 states that the poomsae to be tested for 10th Dan is "by decision of the Promotion test Commission" (page 764 of the Kukkiwon Textbook and further down the link provided above)

10th Dan is a bonafide rank provided it's certified by the Kukkiwon.

Thanks for the info Andy! I figured if the KKW stated that there were 50-some 10th Dans, they weren't talking about folks that had given themselves the title. Anyone find out more about who these folks might be?

[exile]

Thanks for the info Andy! I figured if the KKW stated that there were 50-some 10th Dans, they weren't talking about folks that had given themselves the title. Anyone find out more about who these folks might be?

The KKW itself must have those records, no? They would keep track of that sort of thing---probably keep track of everyone whose belt rank they've certified---and I can't imagine it would be secret info or anything like that, eh?

[andyjeffries]

The KKW itself must have those records, no? They would keep track of that sort of thing---probably keep track of everyone whose belt rank they've certified---and I can't imagine it would be secret info or anything like that, eh?

I've emailed them to ask, I'll post the reply if/when it arrives.

[exile]

I've emailed them to ask, I'll post the reply if/when it arrives.

Thanks v. much, Andy!

[andyjeffries]

I also tried search Google.co.kr using 국기원 십단 as the search terms, but no joy except for finding out that at some point the Kukkiwon re-examination fee for 10th Dan was listed as $1000.

It doesn't help that my Korean knowledge of grammer/vocabulary is very very basic (my dictionary is VERY useful) and automatic translation services translate 단 - dan as "only" which makes for some difficult reading :-)

[exile]

I also tried search Google.co.kr using ??? ?? as the search terms, but no joy except for finding out that at some point the Kukkiwon re-examination fee for 10th Dan was listed as $1000.

I find all this mind-bending... people actually test and do poomsae and other stuff and then get a tenth dan?? I mean... what do they do?? I'm having a very hard time imagining a test which is to 9th dan as the test for second dan is to the test for first dan...


It doesn't help that my Korean knowledge of grammer/vocabulary is very very basic (my dictionary is VERY useful) and automatic translation services translate ? - dan as "only" which makes for some difficult reading :-)

Do you have any Korean friends or acquaintances who know enough about TKD to be able to help there? We have a fair number of Korean graduate students, but none of them do TKD...

[IcemanSK]

The KKW itself must have those records, no? They would keep track of that sort of thing---probably keep track of everyone whose belt rank they've certified---and I can't imagine it would be secret info or anything like that, eh?

Yes, I'm sure the KKW has the info. It's just not on their site.

[exile]

Yes, I'm sure the KKW has the info. It's just not on their site.

I'm really looking forward to what AJ turns up... I'm still trying to picture someone actually testing for 10th dan... :confused:

[zDom]

Early on in my martial arts career I was told that those higher dans are just awarded based on time in grade and contributions to the art such as establishing schools / organizations, holding tournaments, etc.

But then I also thought I heard my friend telling me that GM Ed Sell actually DID go through a physical test for his 10th dan (not sure if that was Chung Do Kwan rank or KKW — someone else in the USCDKA may know).

In any case, I think physical tests peak in difficulty at about 3rd or 4th dan — again I don't have any confirmation for this, so someone else might want to chime in.

[IcemanSK]

Early on in my martial arts career I was told that those higher dans are just awarded based on time in grade and contributions to the art such as establishing schools / organizations, holding tournaments, etc.

But then I also thought I heard my friend telling me that GM Ed Sell actually DID go through a physical test for his 10th dan (not sure if that was Chung Do Kwan rank or KKW — someone else in the USCDKA may know).

In any case, I think physical tests peak in difficulty at about 3rd or 4th dan — again I don't have any confirmation for this, so someone else might want to chime in.

ZDom:

GM Sell did not test for 10th Dan: it was for 9th Dan at the KKW on Sept 10, 2001. He tested for for 9th Dan Chung Do Kwan in 1999. He is the highest ranked non-Korean thru the KKW. His instructor however, (GM Park Hae Man) & GM Park's instructor (GM Uhm, Woon Kyu) are 10th Dan KKW. GM Sell is ONLY a 9th Dan.

[zDom]

ZDom:

GM Sell did not test for 10th Dan: it was for 9th Dan at the KKW on Sept 10, 2001. He tested for for 9th Dan Chung Do Kwan in 1999. He is the highest ranked non-Korean thru the KKW. His instructor however, (GM Park Hae Man) & GM Park's instructor (GM Uhm, Woon Kyu) are 10th Dan KKW. GM Sell is ONLY a 9th Dan.

Ahhh that's right. Thanks for setting that straight, Iceman. :asian:

[terryl965]

Well though my insight there are only alive twenty seven 10th Dans and out of that only five was given out as a test, the gentleman that told me this is suppose to forward the info. me and when I recieve it I'll post it.

[Fluffy]

I don't know if it was through the KKW, but ATA founder Eternal Grandmaster H.U. Lee was awarded his 10th Dan after his death.

[exile]

Well though my insight there are only alive twenty seven 10th Dans and out of that only five was given out as a test, the gentleman that told me this is suppose to forward the info. me and when I recieve it I'll post it.

Thanks, Terry, it would be interesting to know about that. You can't help but wonder, what is it someone would actually have to do to pass a test for that TKD rank such that there is no higher rank? What extra knowledge and ability is it which distinguishes a mere 9th dan from the unsurpassable 10th?

:idunno:

[FieldDiscipline]

I believe GM Kim Bok Man is one of them, I was also under the impression that you didnt test at that level and it was awarded as a 'service to TKD' kind of thing.

I'd definately like to see the list.

[IcemanSK]

I believe GM Kim Bok Man is one of them, I was also under the impression that you didnt test at that level and it was awarded as a 'service to TKD' kind of thing.

I'd definately like to see the list.

My understanding of awarding 10th Dan in TKD is the same as yours. (Meritorious service to TKD) 9th Dan can be tested for. The info that I have seen is that there have been either 52 or 54 people awarded this honor. I think it' would be a great lesson for all Taekwondoan to see who has received this honor.

[jim777]

Is GM Jhoon Rhee a 10th Dan then? I've only been involved with TKD as a student for about 6 months myself, and even I've learned from GM Rhee and his awesome hyung series of books. I can easily see how his contributions to the art would push him over the top.

Another name I remember from way back when (late 70's, early 80's) was Master Hee Il Cho. Any chance he's on the list? He did lots of articles and a few books as well back then, and was certainly doing his part to popularize the art in the US at any rate. Plus, he had the really cool hair thing going on as well :D

[IcemanSK]

Is GM Jhoon Rhee a 10th Dan then? I've only been involved with TKD as a student for about 6 months myself, and even I've learned from GM Rhee and his awesome hyung series of books. I can easily see how his contributions to the art would push him over the top.

Another name I remember from way back when (late 70's, early 80's) was Master Hee Il Cho. Any chance he's on the list? He did lots of articles and a few books as well back then, and was certainly doing his part to popularize the art in the US at any rate. Plus, he had the really cool hair thing going on as well :D

My understanding (from a credible source) is that he is not. Although he does state on his website that he is a 10th Dan. Nowhere does he state what organization had given him that rank. Jhoon Rhee is an excellent martial artist to be sure.

[troubleenuf]

Testing after 4th Dan is a "formality". You are required to do several patterns and several breaks and a paper. Some choose to do a more envolving demonstration but it is not requred. It is more of a time requirement than anything.
There may be that many 10th Dans listed because it would be cumulitive from the time it originated till now. Since most have died I would guess that living 10th Dans would be a somewhat few number and a compleatly different question.

[Laurentkd]

I had had the impression that 10th was an honorary posthumous thing... guess I that way wrong!

I had also originally learned that, until like Iceman I saw there were several listed on the Kukkiwan page, and my reality was shattered.

Master Stoker, I look forward to your future post on this.

Edit: sorry, just realized the first posts here are really old...

[Sukerkin]

Not meaning any disrespect at all but this talk of fifty plus 10th dans is dizzying!

Perhaps it's because I practise a Japanese sword art but, as far as I know, there are no (legitimate) living 10th dans in MJER. Even Sensei Iwata, probably the most famous proponent of the art (certainly in Europe) is a mere 8th Dan and he's mekyo kaiden :eek:.

It's not for me, or anyone not close to that rank to judge but isn't it a little worrying that so many are claiming, seemingly with official approval, the highest rank in the organisation?

To reiterate, I mean no overt disapproval. A little clarification would be welcome tho' as I'm sure I've got the wrong end of the stick :O.

[phlaw]

Not sure on spelling, but I know Grand Master Soon Bae Kim is 10th Dan head of Chong Moo Kwon and Grand Master Byung Jik Ro is 10th Dan head of Sung Moo Kwon.

My instructor just received his 7th Dan last year, and his instructor is a 9th Dan (Moo Yong Yun).

[FieldDiscipline]

It does suprise me that there would be so many, what with the 10th dan being a relatively recent development.

[rmclain]

Not sure on spelling, but I know Grand Master Soon Bae Kim is 10th Dan head of Chong Moo Kwon and Grand Master Byung Jik Ro is 10th Dan head of Sung Moo Kwon.

My instructor just received his 7th Dan last year, and his instructor is a 9th Dan (Moo Yong Yun).

Grandmaster Kim Soo-bae has been around since the late 1940's or early 1950's. He was involved with the Changmoo-Kwan and Master Lee Nam-sok (re-established the Changmoo-Kwan in 1952) for many years. I'll need to check on this, but I got the impression he[Kim Soo-bae] quit instructing or training over 30 years ago and was more of a businessman in martial arts. Master Lee Nam-sok started following around Choi Hong-hi's organization in the 1960's and quit instructing himself during this time. He actually quit instructing much in the 1950's (another story). I bring this up because if it is true, Kim Soo-bae's 10th Dan is probably more honorary. But, don't hold me to that yet. :)

R. McLain

[TraditionalTKD]

I would imagine ANY 10th Dan issued by the Kukkiwon is honorary, since officially it only goes up to 9th Dan.

[IcemanSK]

I would imagine ANY 10th Dan issued by the Kukkiwon is honorary, since officially it only goes up to 9th Dan.

This is quite true. My understanding is that it's honorary for "meritotious service" to Taekwondo.

It wouldn't surprise me that GM Kim, Soon Bae has been given that honor. He was one of the designers of the Tae Geuk poomsae.

[troubleenuf]

Before you say your instructor is a certain rank or another ask yourself a question... Have you ever seen his/her official Kukkiwon certificate? I know of a guy whos business cards says he is a 6th Dan underneith it he says he is Kukkowon certified. Both or true but neither is a fact. Why? He has promoted himself to 6th Dan but is certified as a 3rd Dan. Since they are on different lines in his card both are true but is skims the serface of the facts. So just because someone says they are a certain rank donst make it true.

[exile]

Before you say your instructor is a certain rank or another ask yourself a question... Have you ever seen his/her official Kukkiwon certificate? I know of a guy whos business cards says he is a 6th Dan underneith it he says he is Kukkowon certified. Both or true but neither is a fact. Why? He has promoted himself to 6th Dan but is certified as a 3rd Dan. Since they are on different lines in his card both are true but is skims the serface of the facts. So just because someone says they are a certain rank donst make it true.

Whoa... and I thought I'd heard everything!! Talk about duplicity... this reaches the depths of a whole new ocean!

[Miles]

The 10th dan is a very rare rank, generally awarded posthumously only to persons who have made great contributions to taekwondo. It should not be confused with the honorary dan. The Kukkiwon has only awarded four standard 10th dan, all posthumously, to the following men: Byong Lo Lee, Chong Soo Hong, Il Sup Chun and Nam Suk Lee. The WTF has also awarded two "honorary" Kukkiwon 10th dan, both to individuals who were members of the IOC-Juan A. Samarach and Dr. Rogge. Dr. Kim was also 10th dan Kukkiwon.

Miles

[IcemanSK]

The 10th dan is a very rare rank, generally awarded posthumously only to persons who have made great contributions to taekwondo. It should not be confused with the honorary dan. The Kukkiwon has only awarded four standard 10th dan, all posthumously, to the following men: Byong Lo Lee, Chong Soo Hong, Il Sup Chun and Nam Suk Lee. The WTF has also awarded two "honorary" Kukkiwon 10th dan, both to individuals who were members of the IOC-Juan A. Samarach and Dr. Rogge. Dr. Kim was also 10th dan Kukkiwon.

Miles

Miles you always know the inside info. How do you know this?

[mystic warrior]

Here is a thought
Worry less, Train more

[TraditionalTKD]

I'd rather be with a legitimate 5th Dan than a ceremonial 10th Dan any day. How many organizations give out ceremonial Dans to people who either don't practice or know the right people? To me, a ceremonial 10th Dan is like a ceremonial Ph.D. Nice gesture, but it means nothing.
The world is full of ceremonial and honorary 10th Dans as it is. Doesn't impress me.