Poomse and belt ranking

[matt.m]

I just have to ask to see what rank and how you set the tae guek and or the ITF forms in your cirriculum?

I have seen three other schools in St. L other than my own do it differently.

In MSK it is white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, red, black so Tae Guek 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

So for yellow belt test it is Il Chang and so on.

[exile]

I just have to ask to see what rank and how you set the tae guek and or the ITF forms in your cirriculum?

I have seen three other schools in St. L other than my own do it differently.

In MSK it is white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, red, black so Tae Guek 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

So for yellow belt test it is Il Chang and so on.

In my school, we do

white: kicho Il Jang
orange: kicho Ii Jang
yellow: kicho Sam Jang and Palgwe Il Jang
green: Palgwe Ii Jang
purple: Palgwe Sam Jang
blue: Palgwe Sa Jang
brown:Palgwe Oh Jang
red: Palgwe Yuk Jang
red-Black: Palgwe Chil Jang
black: Palgwe Pal Jang and Koryo

[ajs1976]

We have:

white: Kibbon 1 & 2
yellow: Kibbon 3 & 4
orange: Taeguek 1
green: Taeguek 2
purple: Taeguek 3
blue: Taeguek 4
red: Taeguek 5
brown: Taeguek 6
brown w/stripe: Taeguek 7
bodan (red/black): Taeguek 8

[MSUTKD]

10th Gup - White
9th Gup - White with yellow stripe

8th Gup – Yellow: Taeguek and Palgwe 1
7th Gup - Yellow with green stripe: Taeguek and Palgwe 2

6th Gup – Green: Taeguek and Palgwe 3
5th Gup - Green with bluestripe: Taeguek and Palgwe 4

4th Gup – Blue: Taeguek and Palgwe 5
3rd Gup - Blue with red stripe: Taeguek and Palgwe 6


2nd Gup – Red: Taeguek and Palgwe 7
1st Gup - Red with black stripe: Taeguek and Palgwe 8


Black – Koryo (They test with Koryo but once they get Black Belt I teach them up to Shipjin)

[matt.m]

Cool, Great posts so far. By the way, in St. L we have to do the ITF 1-8 the same way we do the WTF. I like seeing that I am not in the only school that requires more than one.

[exile]

10th Gup - White
9th Gup - White with yellow stripe

8th Gup – Yellow: Taeguek and Palgwe 1
7th Gup - Yellow with green stripe: Taeguek and Palgwe 2

6th Gup – Green: Taeguek and Palgwe 3
5th Gup - Green with bluestripe: Taeguek and Palgwe 4

4th Gup – Blue: Taeguek and Palgwe 5
3rd Gup - Blue with red stripe: Taeguek and Palgwe 6


2nd Gup – Red: Taeguek and Palgwe 7
1st Gup - Red with black stripe: Taeguek and Palgwe 8


Black – Koryo (They test with Koryo but once they get Black Belt I teach them up to Shipjin)

Brilliant!!---you do both the Taegeuks and the Palgwes! That's really excellent---I see no reason to drop the latter just because the WTF/KKW has dropped the latter from their `official' instruction set. I'm not dissing the Taegeuks---my respect for them has increased quite a bit since studying Simon O'Neil's no-nonsense bunkai for some of them in his Combat-TKD newsletters. But the Palgwes are a treasurehouse of fighting techniques, and they're really pretty to watch if done by a master.



Cool, Great posts so far. By the way, in St. L we have to do the ITF 1-8 the same way we do the WTF. I like seeing that I am not in the only school that requires more than one.

I think that is the coolest thing of all---that you guys do both WTF and ITF and have the time of your lives! :)

[matt.m]

I was told during Oct. when I did 2 tournaments that Won Yho was a great looking form. The question/statement was "Whatever form you did looked really good." Really, to do more is a more rounded TKD experience. I do have the time of my life. Almost to the point of "If I was any better I would be twins.

[exile]

I was told during Oct. when I did 2 tournaments that Won Yho was a great looking form. The question/statement was "Whatever form you did looked really good." Really, to do more is a more rounded TKD experience. I do have the time of my life. Almost to the point of "If I was any better I would be twins.

:rofl:

[zDom]

I just have to ask to see what rank and how you set the tae guek and or the ITF forms in your cirriculum?

I have seen three other schools in St. L other than my own do it differently.

In MSK it is white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, red, black so Tae Guek 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

So for yellow belt test it is Il Chang and so on.

Matt, not sure if GM Hildebrand is doing it differently, but when I went up through the ranks it was:

Chon Ji + Il Chong: as white belt, required to test to yellow
E Chong: yellow -> orange
Sam Chong: orange -> green
Sa Chong: green -> blue
Oh Chong: blue -> purple
Yuk Chong: purple -> brown
Chil and Pal Chong: brown -> red
Chung Moo and Koryo Chong: red -> black
Gaebek and Keum Gang (I think): 1st dan -> 2nd dan
Yu Shin and Taebek: 2nd dan -> 3rd dan

The ITF forms Chon Ji and Chung Moo were "optional" (Mr. Dunn would insist we knew our Tae Guek forms well before he would teach us the ITF form for that rank).

[crushing]

The website link below belongs to another club in the organization I am in. It pretty much represents our requirements too:

http://wmtkd.freehosting.net/MHKKA/TestReq.html

[bluemtn]

For where I go, it's:

Kuk Mu 1 and 2= white->yellow
Kuk Mu 3, Pyong An 1 and 2= Yellow->green
Pyong An 2 and 3, Kuk Mu 3=green->purple
Pyong An 4 and 5, Kuk Mu 4= purple->brown
Kuk Mu 5, Pal sek, Chul Gi 1= brown->black

That's all I know right now, since I'm still a brown belt.

[Kacey]

9th gup (white belt/yellow stripe): Saju Tchrigi (4 direction punch), Saju Maki (4 direction block)
8th gup (yellow belt): Chon-ji
7th gup (yellow belt/green stripe): Dan-gun
6th gup (green belt): Do-san
5th gup (green belt/blue stripe): Won-hyo
4th gup (blue belt): Yul-gok
3rd gup (blue belt/red stripe): Joong-gun
2nd gup (red belt): Toi-Gye
1st gup (red belt/black stripe): Hwa-rang
1st dan (black belt): Choong-mu

After that, there are 3 belts per rank through 5th dan, then 2 more for 6th dan, and 1 for 7th dan, for a total of 24 - the number of hours in a day, which therefore stands for an entire life. There's also a "revenant" pattern (Ko-Dan, left over from when Juche replaced it - we learn that one for 3rd dan) which we also learn, out of respect for the history of the art.

Of course, there're a lot of other requirements at each rank in addition to the patterns - each rank has hand techniques, kicks, self-defense (mostly releases, controls, throws, and sweeps), step sparring, free sparring, and breaking, along with knowledge requirements.

[matt.m]

The following guideline for my locale.

So for example the Moo Sul kwan belt ranking system is as follows:
White, Yellow, Orange, Green, Blue, Purple, Brown, Red, and Black.

So for example to test for yellow you have to do Il Jang and Chon Ji,
orange belt test would be EE Jang and Dan Gun, green would be Sam Jang and DO SAN. GM Hildebrand requires both WTF and ITF forms at each belt to be performed.

Of course all tests are cumulative and the last belt requirements are expected to be better. This is only poomse requirements, of course there are the one step sparing, basic moves, etc.

So pretty soon I will test for blue belt so my test will be as follows:
Il Jang, Chong Ji
EE Jang, Dan Gun
Sam Jang, Do San
Sa Jang, Won Yho
6 basic moves
12 one step sparring

[cali_tkdbruin]

Remember, every dojang is different, and they all have their different requirements which are difficult to quantify. Also, know each dojang has their own curriculum, and their own belt advancement requirements, so keep that in mind when you're looking at various martial arts schools.

Anyway, I'm in a WTF/Kukukkiwon dojang program, so when one gets to BB I think it gets a just a little more uniform in terms of what's needed to advance up the ladder. :asian:

[IcemanSK]

Us Chung Do Kwan Association belt/ poomsae order is:

White 10th Gup
Yellow 9th Gup
Gold 8th Gup Tae Geuk IL Chong
Orange 7th Gup Tae Geuk Ee Chong
Green 6th Taegeuk Som Chong
Purple 5th Tae Geuk Sa Chong
Blue 4th Gup Tae Geuk Oh Chong
Red 3rd Gup Tae Geuk Yuk Chong
Brown 2nd Gup Tae Geuk Chil Chong
Brown w/ black stripe 1st Gup Tae Geuk Pal Chong

[TKDmel]

10th Gup - White
9th Gup - White with yellow stripe

8th Gup – Yellow: Taeguek and Palgwe 1
7th Gup - Yellow with green stripe: Taeguek and Palgwe 2

6th Gup – Green: Taeguek and Palgwe 3
5th Gup - Green with bluestripe: Taeguek and Palgwe 4

4th Gup – Blue: Taeguek and Palgwe 5
3rd Gup - Blue with red stripe: Taeguek and Palgwe 6


2nd Gup – Red: Taeguek and Palgwe 7
1st Gup - Red with black stripe: Taeguek and Palgwe 8


Black – Koryo

My Master used to use this exact ranking, but has since dropped the Taeguek patterns until black belt. Why I don't know but I wish he had kept things as they were. It seemed to give people a new interim goal between belt levels. He also moved testings from every 3 months to every 2. I still teach the taeguek forms to those individuals who are skilled and knowledgeable enough to learn them though only up to the level they are at.

[exile]

My Master used to use this exact ranking, but has since dropped the Taeguek patterns until black belt. Why I don't know but I wish he had kept things as they were. It seemed to give people a new interim goal between belt levels. He also moved testings from every 3 months to every 2. I still teach the taeguek forms to those individuals who are skilled and knowledgeable enough to learn them though only up to the level they are at.

So your instructor used the Palgwes as the colored belt forms and the Taegeuks as parts of the dan requirements?

That seems kind of odd... the Palgwes always struck me as a bit more complex than the Taegeuks and physically more demanding (at least the way I've been taught them)...

[TraditionalTKD]

Our organization:

White: Kibon Il Chang
Yellow: Palgue Il Chang
Yellow Green: Palgue Ee Chang
Low Green: Palgue Sam Chang
High Green: Palgue Sa Chang
Low Blue: Palgue Oh Chang
High Blue: Palgue Yook Chang
Low Red: Palgue Chil Chang
High Red: Palgue Pal Chang
After black belt we do the WTF black belt series. I would agree about the Palgues: I think they are physically more difficult and technically more demanding. Which is why our Grandmaster kept them.

[exile]

Our organization:

White: Kibon Il Chang
Yellow: Palgue Il Chang
Yellow Green: Palgue Ee Chang
Low Green: Palgue Sam Chang
High Green: Palgue Sa Chang
Low Blue: Palgue Oh Chang
High Blue: Palgue Yook Chang
Low Red: Palgue Chil Chang
High Red: Palgue Pal Chang
After black belt we do the WTF black belt series. I would agree about the Palgues: I think they are physically more difficult and technically more demanding. Which is why our Grandmaster kept them.

Good for him! I worry that the WTF/KKW policy of exclusively mandating the Taegeuks will lead to the Palgwes eventually disappearing from the curricula of most dojangs, the way the Pyang-Ahns have... my instructor knows and teaches those as well (though you have to ask him to if you want to learn them), fortunately!

[shauntkd]

I find it very interesting the differences between schools and belt ranks. I have heard of schools even using a green camo belt for a rank. At my school though we learn palgwes as color belts and taeguks as black belts along with several other forms like koryo, ohop, and taeyung.

[exile]

I find it very interesting the differences between schools and belt ranks. I have heard of schools even using a green camo belt for a rank.

I've heard of that too... wasn't there a thread quite some time ago on MT about camo belts? I'm sure I'm not making that up...



At my school though we learn palgwes as color belts and taeguks as black belts along with several other forms like koryo, ohop, and taeyung.

Right, another case of Taegeuks as BB forms... but it seems to TraditionalTDK, various other people on other threads, and me that the Palgwes have more depth and complexity than the Taegeuks. Anyone have any inkling what the rationale might be for using the Palgwes for colored belt ranking while reserving the Taegeuks for Dan ranking??

[bluemtn]

Ok- found a list of black belt forms (sorry- don't know for what ranks):

Ship Soo
Chul Gi 2
Yun Bee
Ja On
Chinto
Chul Gi 3
Kang Sang Koon Dae
Kang Sang Koon Sho

I think one is an alternative for another, but don't know which.

For testing for brown belt, I had to be able to do all forms from white belt through purple belt. There is also 2 ranks per belt color, but just one color for those 2 ranks (with the exception of black, of course).

[TraditionalTKD]

I've heard of that too... wasn't there a thread quite some time ago on MT about camo belts? I'm sure I'm not making that up...




Right, another case of Taegeuks as BB forms... but it seems to TraditionalTDK, various other people on other threads, and me that the Palgwes have more depth and complexity than the Taegeuks. Anyone have any inkling what the rationale might be for using the Palgwes for colored belt ranking while reserving the Taegeuks for Dan ranking??

Possibly to stay in good with the Kukkiwon. That'd be my best guess. What many people don't seem to realize is that, while the Taegeuks are used exclusively for Tae Kwon Do in Korea, it is perfectly permissible for Instructors outside Korea to teach the Palgue forms. The Kukkiwon website does acknowlege the Palgues, though to be honest, they are considered secondary to the Taegeuks. They are, however, still taught outside Korea, primarily by older organizations.

[exile]

Possibly to stay in good with the Kukkiwon. That'd be my best guess. What many people don't seem to realize is that, while the Taegeuks are used exclusively for Tae Kwon Do in Korea, it is perfectly permissible for Instructors outside Korea to teach the Palgue forms. The Kukkiwon website does acknowlege the Palgues, though to be honest, they are considered secondary to the Taegeuks. They are, however, still taught outside Korea, primarily by older organizations.

Yes, eventually somewhere along the line it finally dawned on me that if you want to do stuff that the KKW doesn't mandate, you can still do it but you're not supposed to omit anything that they insist you teach. You can probably teach the Pyang-Ahns if you want, or Naihanchi even... as long as you teach the Taegeuks. OK, I get that...

... but what strikes me as very odd is that someone would come up with a way to placate the KKW by taking the primo set of colored belt forms and making them dan forms as a way of deflecting the wrath expected from the KKW because a secondary color-belt form was being actively taught... it just seems so crazy! I've no doubt you're right about the motivation... but it just seems so bizarre...

I mean, the alternative, if you really have your heart set on teaching the Palgwes but want to avoid any appearance of giving offense to the KKW curriculum, is to teach both Palgwe and Taegeuk Il Jang at yellow, say; both Palgwe and Taegeuk Ii Jang at green, and so on. Somehow that seems to me to make more sense than repackaging a high-numbered gup form as a low-numbered dan form...

[TraditionalTKD]

On the other hand, our organization is based outside Korea and we have NEVER practiced the Tae Geuk forms. So I'm not sure if placating the Kukkiwon is even a valid point. If it were, I'm sure our Grandmaster would have gotten a letter from the KKW asking why he is not teaching the Tae Geuks as part of the forms curriculum. To my knowledge he has not. His Instructor is Mr. Uhm, so maybe that has something to do with it.

[zDom]

On the other hand, our organization is based outside Korea and we have NEVER practiced the Tae Geuk forms. So I'm not sure if placating the Kukkiwon is even a valid point. If it were, I'm sure our Grandmaster would have gotten a letter from the KKW asking why he is not teaching the Tae Geuks as part of the forms curriculum. To my knowledge he has not. His Instructor is Mr. Uhm, so maybe that has something to do with it.

GGM Uhm, president of Kukkiwon and head of Chung Do Kwan?

Who is your GM, btw?

[Drusilla]

9th gup (white belt/yellow stripe): Saju Tchrigi (4 direction punch), Saju Maki (4 direction block)
8th gup (yellow belt): Chon-ji
7th gup (yellow belt/green stripe): Dan-gun
6th gup (green belt): Do-san
5th gup (green belt/blue stripe): Won-hyo
4th gup (blue belt): Yul-gok
3rd gup (blue belt/red stripe): Joong-gun
2nd gup (red belt): Toi-Gye
1st gup (red belt/black stripe): Hwa-rang
1st dan (black belt): Choong-mu

After that, there are 3 belts per rank through 5th dan, then 2 more for 6th dan, and 1 for 7th dan, for a total of 24 - the number of hours in a day, which therefore stands for an entire life. There's also a "revenant" pattern (Ko-Dan, left over from when Juche replaced it - we learn that one for 3rd dan) which we also learn, out of respect for the history of the art.

Of course, there're a lot of other requirements at each rank in addition to the patterns - each rank has hand techniques, kicks, self-defense (mostly releases, controls, throws, and sweeps), step sparring, free sparring, and breaking, along with knowledge requirements.

That's pretty much identical to our syllabus up to 1st Dan black belt. I don't know a lot about what happens after then as I'm only a yellow belt myself and am having enough trouble remembering my parts!
This is really trivial, but your spellings of the Korean terminology is different to ours, we use "Sajo Jirugi", "Sajo Makgi" and "Choong Moo", but that's only in how they're spelt, there's never been any emphasis on that, as long as the pronounciation is similar. ;)

However, we do tend to talk about it like this:
10th Kup - Sajo Jirugi/Makgi
9th Kup - Chon-Ji
8th Kup - Dan Gun
7th Kup - Do San
6th Kup - Won Hyo
5th Kup - Yul Gok
4th Kup - Joong Gun
3rd Kup - Toi Gye
2nd Kup - Hwa Rang
1st Kup - Choong Moo
as in, that's the pattern you need to learn to progress to the next belt.

I find it fascinating how everyone's syllabus is different when we're all learning the same art. :)

[Kacey]

That's pretty much identical to our syllabus up to 1st Dan black belt. I don't know a lot about what happens after then as I'm only a yellow belt myself and am having enough trouble remembering my parts!
This is really trivial, but your spellings of the Korean terminology is different to ours, we use "Sajo Jirugi", "Sajo Makgi" and "Choong Moo", but that's only in how they're spelt, there's never been any emphasis on that, as long as the pronounciation is similar. ;)

However, we do tend to talk about it like this:
10th Kup - Sajo Jirugi/Makgi
9th Kup - Chon-Ji
8th Kup - Dan Gun
7th Kup - Do San
6th Kup - Won Hyo
5th Kup - Yul Gok
4th Kup - Joong Gun
3rd Kup - Toi Gye
2nd Kup - Hwa Rang
1st Kup - Choong Moo
as in, that's the pattern you need to learn to progress to the next belt.

I find it fascinating how everyone's syllabus is different when we're all learning the same art. :)

Ah, another Ch'ang H'on stylist! The spellings are different because they are phonetic transliterations from another alphabet - I've seen the spellings you use as well as the ones I used in this post, and, in fact, use many of them interchangeably. The syllabus is different because there were originally 9 kwans in TKD, each with its own syllabus - if you search the TKD forum using "kwan" as your search term, you'll come up with lots of information about the history that led to our current associations, organizations, and syllabi.