quite possibly the worst idea ever

[bushidomartialarts]

some of you know me and how i don't tend to get down on programs. i try to look for the good in other folks' ideas.

but this may just possibly be the worst idea i've ever heard of.

www.bladestar.us

[Tez3]

I think it's someones idea of a good moneymaker! I was taught to throw knives by Royal Marine Commandos and I'm pretty good but I don't see that it warrants whole 'martial art' system. Our club numbers have dropped due to most of our students being sent to Iraq so we could do with the money that special lessons, gradings,different uniforms and selling knife kits etc could bring in lol! I'm not sure of the exchange rate at the moment but the kits seem very expensive?

[MA-Caver]

You should watch the "Throwing Tykes" video offered on the site... (dunno how to link it)... watch the instructor... he's not even paying attention to the "tyke" as they're preparing to throw... seems to me a very poor practice to ensure proper form and techniques. He's just gleefully handing the kids their knives and watching the target.

Worse idea ever? Yeah, I'd have to agree with that.

IMO kids should not be learning these types of MA techniques (throwing knives) until they are MUCH older... say about 17 or so. It's poor judgement and practice on the instructors and parents to allow this type of training for the very young.

Knife throwing is a serious, dangerous skill and a responsible one at that. If it's the instructor's intent to teach that sort of responsiblity at a young/early age then they probably need to re-think it over. Maybe they know HOW to teach it... but in my opinion they don't know WHEN it's the proper time for a child to learn it.

[Tez3]

I'd agree with it if we could use the children as targets LOL! Nah, had two very hectic children's lessons tonight! The idea of giving children live blades is madness. It's like a mad Monty Python sketch, doesn't bear thinking about.

[bushidomartialarts]

It's like a mad Monty Python sketch, doesn't bear thinking about.

well said.

[Kacey]

I cannot imagine giving a live blade to a child... that's just wrong. Teaching a child to throw a live blade is just stupid - or insane.

[Carol]

You should watch the "Throwing Tykes" video offered on the site... (dunno how to link it)... watch the instructor... he's not even paying attention to the "tyke" as they're preparing to throw... seems to me a very poor practice to ensure proper form and techniques. He's just gleefully handing the kids their knives and watching the target.


And, the target is never shown.

Throwing Tykes (http://www.bladestar.us/videos_5w.php)

[Kacey]

Not only is the target never shown, but from the time between the throw and the sound, it couldn't have been more than 10 feet away... and I'm not really sure about that "windup" on the throw, either; the motion, yes - but not the pumping back and forth prior.

[Andy Moynihan]

I cannot imagine giving a live blade to a child... that's just wrong. Teaching a child to throw a live blade is just stupid - or insane.

Yes.

But it's also my considered opinion that, child OR adult, "knife throwing" at ALL is stupid, period.

I've always believed that you throw your knife under only two conditions and ONLY TWO:

1) you have another weapon

2) you must reach this person *right now* and your other weapon cannot do it *right now* or is also a knife

Not the least of reasons for this is the fact that if you throw your knife ABSENT at least one of these conditions and you miss, you've disarmed yourself, armed him, and pissed him off all in one smooth motion. All in all not the action hero move you're after.


(That being said, yes I can throw---so it ALWAYS lands point first no less).

[Carol]

Yes.

But it's also my considered opinion that, child OR adult, "knife throwing" at ALL is stupid, period.

I've always believed that you throw your knife under only two conditioons and ONLY TWO:

1) you have another weapon

2) you must reach this person *right now* and your other weapon cannot do it *right now* or is also a knife

Not the least of reasons for this is the fact that if you throw your knife ABSENT these conditions and you miss, you've disarmed yourself, armed him, and pissed him off all in one smooth motion. All in all not the action hero move you're after.


(That being said, yes I can throw---so it ALWAYS lands point first no less).

The only other reason that I would have is for the sheer art of it.

To me knife throwing is a very elegant and very adult art. I wouldn't want a child playing with it any more than I would a child playing around with wine making or the finer points of Baccarat.

[shesulsa]

Andy Moynihan[/B]] But it's also my considered opinion that, child OR adult, "knife throwing" at ALL is stupid, period.
Hmm ... I dunno about that. I don't see it as all that more dangerous than BB guns, pellet guns, slingshots and air rifles. As a sport, I'm okay with it at a certain age, though I will acknowledge that the children depicted in the pix on the site appear too young for my preference.

[Andy Moynihan]

Not calling into question its relative dangerousness, just its relative usefulness. Sorry for the mixup.

[shesulsa]

Not calling into question its relative dangerousness, just its relative usefulness. Sorry for the mixup.
AAaaaah. Gotcha. N/P. ;)

[PeaceWarrior]

Hmm...in some ways, I dont see how its much different from teaching a child any martial art, or weapon. A kid is much more likely to hit another kid with his/her fist or kick them than to be throwing live blades at them. However with kids bringing guns to school nowadays I could see that really going bad.
And those kids were wayy too young to be handling and throwing knives. I sure hope they have some major supervision.

so yeah, overall I think its bad judgement if not out right stupid.

[pstarr]

Not for kids...nope, nope, nope!

[still learning]

Hello, The other side of the blade is this: When you teach kids how to use a gun...they become safer at handling them.

Teaching kids how to throw weapons is also teaching them the safety side of handling those weapons. How to pass the knives, how to handle them safely.

Knives are available in most homes (kitchen) and pocket knives. Teaching kids proper handling is a great idea.

Where you ever taught how to handle knife ,how about your children do they know how to pass a knife to someone. Do you know how to sharpen knives? Most people think they know how? But many do cut themselves often!

We DO NOT teach throwing knives (we have some)...but we do teach our kids in the Martial classes how to handle a knife and how to pass a knife to someone!

Most kids (especially boys) like to throw knives (and everthing else)with or without supervision!

Having a School for children to learn knife throwing? UM...I woulfd not send my kids there......Doesn't sound like a good thing to do! ...just my feelings on this.......Aloha

[Cirdan]

I got mixed feelings about this.. back when I was a kid it was common for country boys like me to learn the use of a knife at young age. At eight I knew well how to sharpen a blade, pass it, carve wood, prepare fish for the fry pan etc. And not just a small pocket knife, also larger ones like the sami knife and a manchete like tool called "snedel" used for clearing forest paths and cutting branches.

However a room full of todays kids handling throwing knives makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. One on one instruction should be required! Not to mention some heavy focus on how to respect the blade.

[Adept]

Reminds me of a passage from a Discworld novel:

Mother: "You can't give my little girl a sword!"
Death: "WHY NOT? IT'S EDUCATIONAL."
Mother: "But she might cut herself!"
Death: "THAT WOULD BE AN IMPORTANT LESSON."

[Cirdan]

Reminds me of a passage from a Discworld novel:

Mother: "You can't give my little girl a sword!"
Death: "WHY NOT? IT'S EDUCATIONAL."
Mother: "But she might cut herself!"
Death: "THAT WOULD BE AN IMPORTANT LESSON."

I remember having to explain all my scars to my girlfriend.. :rolleyes:

[Tez3]

As I said I think it's a money making scheme, they can sell it as teaching your children knife safety. Surely parents would teach that at home? The responsible parents would along with not sticking your fingers in electric sockets. I was certainly taught how to handle and pass the knives we used at home properly ( I mean domestic knives,cutlery, vegetable knives etc) when I was a small child. I learned to do useful things safely with knives while I was a Girl Guide ( after the age of 12). Teaching uses of knives in the great outdoors is one thing teaching kids to chuck at people seems irresponsible and just plain wrong.

[Cirdan]

There are plenty of clubs teaching kids how to use a bow or a 22 cal. gun (at least at the age of 11+). As long as this is done professionally, is knife throwing really so much worse?

Btw a thrown rock kan be almost as deadly as a knife. Ask any soldier who has been involved in crowd control on the Balkans.

And don`t get me wrong. I favor banning knives in the streets.

[Drac]

Just plain scary....

[Tez3]

I'm sure many clubs teach weapons of all descriptions but I think the difference here is that it is not part of a general curriculum and seems to exude a sort of "Tumble Tots" type of enthuisasm for chucking knives around. If it were English it would be "I say kiddies, lets all throw knives at people, it's jolly good fun" (Celts would chuck the knives at the English) It's surreal and as I said not a good thing! All those badges for marksmanship...what do you have to hit to get them? The neighbours cat? I like the Terry Pratchett quote, as with most of his writing - very apt!

[trueaspirer]

I think it would depend how well guided it is.

[rutherford]

(That being said, yes I can throw---so it ALWAYS lands point first no less).

Always? That's tough to swallow.

I also have difficulty with your words "at ALL, period." Especially since you go right ahead and offer two ideas why it might have benefit. However I agree with you about the typical combat utility of throwing a knife.

But, to reach your proported level of skill you must have made many, many thousands of throws. Can you really say that you received no enjoyment or other benefit from the practice? It didn't improve your understanding of the physical mechanics or give you any understanding of how you might throw a coffee mug or other improvised weapon in cases of extreme need?

To get back to the specific topic of discussion, I haven't met the people involved and have no idea if they are offering safe instruction. I, personally, enjoy and see a benefit in throwing weapons. I also was about six the first time I took a bunch of my mom's kitchen knives and started throwing them at a tree in my yard, so I can see the value of offering safe instruction.

[Tez3]

Rutherford, I bet your mother was pleased with you lol!

[Brother John]

....hey, that's GREAT!!!

I'm currently starting up a program at several day cares around town!!
I've already got 17 Pre-Kindergarden children on contracts.

It's a system that centers on hatchet throwing, chokes and eye gouging!!!

Soon we'll host a tournament!:duel:

You're all invited.

It's a "Bring your own tourniquet" event......:bomb::wuguns:

Your Brother
John

[still learning]

Hello, A little off tarket here? BUT if you watch cartoons with your kids and see all the violence that goes on....what do you think the kids are learning.....hitting,shooting,destroying,fighting. ...cartoons are role models for the kids!

Yes! I do not agree with teaching knife thowing classes to kids. In martial arts it is OK to teach eye gouging,chokes,sweeps,kicks to the groin(other areas),punches,locks,breaks,biting,ripng,throat attacks...(depends on the age of the kids,and young teens here for us.)

most of these are less dangerous than throwing a knife at a tarket?

I see most of your points here.......WE are humble and we are teaching our KIDS to be nice to others.

We live in a violent world....look the news or read the newspaper..the whole world teaches our kids how to behave, Our leaders make great role models...that way the violence will never end!

[Tez3]

Violence is the way forward as a friend of mine Leigh Remedious says.(He fought Genki Sudo in UFC38)

There's two points here I think 1. is this just a McDojo who have cottoned on to an idea to make money? 2. What is the thinking behind teaching children to throw knives? for their safety, SD or to learn all the things we expect to be taught at a reputable MA school? or does it come back to 1 again..money?

[searcher]

....hey, that's GREAT!!!

I'm currently starting up a program at several day cares around town!!
I've already got 17 Pre-Kindergarden children on contracts.

It's a system that centers on hatchet throwing, chokes and eye gouging!!!

Soon we'll host a tournament!:duel:

You're all invited.

It's a "Bring your own tourniquet" event......:bomb::wuguns:

Your Brother
John


From one Kansas guy to another. You're killing me.:rofl:

[Shotochem]

There are plenty of clubs teaching kids how to use a bow or a 22 cal. gun (at least at the age of 11+). As long as this is done professionally, is knife throwing really so much worse?

Btw a thrown rock kan be almost as deadly as a knife. Ask any soldier who has been involved in crowd control on the Balkans.

And don`t get me wrong. I favor banning knives in the streets.

A knife can be thrown quickly @ fairly close range with serious injury or mortal consequences. It is also considered a concealed weapon in most states. How one can legally allow this to be taught to children is beyond me.

I wonder how good the insurance is at that place and what the coverage must cost???


Do you think a young child has the capacitity and the responsiblitity to be able to distinguish what is self defense with a deadly weapon or just getting mad and using one. I certainly wouldn't play those odds with my kids.:confused:

[bydand]

I don't know if this is "THE" worst idea ever, but it sure is in the top 10. Teaching kids how to use throwing knives, what are they thinking? Training kids to use knives is one thing I agree with, but training them to throw them is another.

[Xue Sheng]

Knife throwing for children..... Isn't that cute...

BUT IT’S WRONG!!! :soapbox:

That is JUST SOOOOO wrong It definitely in the running for one of the worst ideas ever

[Cirdan]

Do you think a young child has the capacitity and the responsiblitity to be able to distinguish what is self defense with a deadly weapon or just getting mad and using one. I certainly wouldn't play those odds with my kids.:confused:

Probably not. Absolutely no potential weapons in your house then?

How do you feel about kids learning to shoot a bow or fire a gun? Or learning how to use traditional weapons like nunchakus?

[Andy Moynihan]

Always? That's tough to swallow.

I also have difficulty with your words "at ALL, period." Especially since you go right ahead and offer two ideas why it might have benefit. However I agree with you about the typical combat utility of throwing a knife.

But, to reach your proported level of skill you must have made many, many thousands of throws.

Not so much that I made thousands of throws as I changed the way I throw them. I got the technique from a 50's USMC hand to hand manual titled "Cold Steel" by one John Styers( Much recommended for far more than just the knife parts BTW) , who in turn got it from a technique he attributes as being used by the Gold Rush miners of the mid 19th century.

If you can walk, and bend your elbow , you can do this.

If you can stay within 12-15 feet of the target you can become a grand master.( go ahead and start your own style, everyone else does).

if you need to throw further out than that your chances decrease no matter what knife you have but they decrease less with this method, because you do not need to know the number of "turns" the knife makes before it hits, because the knife does not turn as it leaves the hand.

Here.

Try it out:

*Start by standing normally.

*you take your knife and rest it in your palm, handle locked in place by the thumb, blade/handle in line with the forearm and protruding past the fingertips.

* face target.

*decide where on the target you want to aim.

Keeping blade, fingers, wrist and forearm perfectly straight, bend elbow and draw arm back, palm supinated, as if preparing to bowl a strike.

* take as many steps as you want/need to build momentum.

*twisting your waist and following through, "aim" your fingers, where you want the knife to go,and, palm up, "shovel" the knife at the target , releasing the thumb at the desired aim point , allow arm to follow through.

Let me know hhow you do with it, I expect it's easier to get consistent results with that than the end-over-end method. :)


(Still wouldn't use it if I had a better means available *shrug*)

[Kacey]

Probably not. Absolutely no potential weapons in your house then?

How do you feel about kids learning to shoot a bow or fire a gun? Or learning how to use traditional weapons like nunchakus?

I think it's a lot harder to hide a bow, gun, or nunchakus than a knife; knives are (at least potentially) smaller, deadlier (the winner in a knife fight can still very easily die from wounds inflicted in the fight), easier to hide and explain away, and much more readily available. Sure, you don't teach a class like that with kitchen knives... but how hard would it be to transfer over, even if the kitchen knife is badly balanced?

[MBuzzy]

So this really isn't just some kind of sick joke?

I think it is great to teach weapons safety to children, but giving them the ability to turn a common houshold item into a very deadly and accurate weapon is not a good idea. Most children don't have the responsibility to know when to use this - plus, when they "practice" and show their friends....bad things will happen. The worst part is just how accessible knives are to kids....

[Carol]

So this really isn't just some kind of sick joke?

I think it is great to teach weapons safety to children, but giving them the ability to turn a common houshold item into a very deadly and accurate weapon is not a good idea. Most children don't have the responsibility to know when to use this - plus, when they "practice" and show their friends....bad things will happen. The worst part is just how accessible knives are to kids....

I also think it's great to teach weapons safety to children. Weapons safety is NOT being taught. Look at the last kid on "throwing tikes" in the yellow belt. The instructor is counting up the number of sticks.

Watch what the child is doing. He has his hands, and his fingers, all over the training blade.

If that were live steel....

[Tez3]

I need a new computer! Mine won't show videos, it just freezes maybe just as well as the descriptions of the children with knives sound blood curdling! Like everyone else I agree with weapon safety being taught, I love knives myself but this just seems to be some sort of gimmicky idea to promote the instructors bank accounts.