I'd like to compile a list of which arts train in which weapons, and add it to a database here. I need some help. :)

I'm hoping to format it something like this:

Katana (Japanese Sword) : Iaido, Iajitsu, Kenjitsu, Kendo

Shuriken (throwing blades) - Shurikenjutsu, ninjutsu,


and I'd hope to also create a brief summary of the arts, similar to the RMA FAQ.

Thank you for your help.

:asian:

Kaith:

I am not clear what you are wanting to do here but I hope you will also add FMA. arts. Maybe break down bladed arts. flexible weapons, pole or clubed awepons, throwing weapons and projectile weapons

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Katana (Japanese Sword) : Iaido, Iajitsu, Kenjitsu, Kendo

Also batto-jutsu/batto-do, and occasionally kenpo (yes, kenpo). See www.koryu.com for the classical Japanese arts; follow the links from:
http://koryu.com/guide/ryuguide.html#ryutype

Aikido will often train at least the bokken.

I think you will find this an endless task. There are so many weapons, so many styles and sub-styles, and so many dialectical differences (think of the Chinese weapons!). Good luck.

katana: iaijutsu/iaido, kenjutsu/kendo, battojutsu/batto-do, aikido (bokken, really), naginatajutsu (for the kata), jojutsu (for the kata)

Actually, it may be easier to have the board members list what weapons are practiced in their styles, and then compile the database from that.

Going with that idea...

Okinawa-te: daggers, nunchaku, tonfa, rokushakubo, yawara, sai, kama, spear, naginata (kata), mace (really two sticks...kata), fan

kobudo: sai, kama, tonfa, rokushakubo, tinbe/rochin (short spear and shield), tekko (think brass knuckles), eku (oar), nunte (bo with a manji sai stuck in one end), nunchaku
* most styles of karate study one or more of the kobudo weapons.

Cthulhu

Add Aikido to the katana list, the knife list and the jo list.



Despair Bear

I'm hoping for a list, basicically of what weapon, and where. I realize we'll miss a few thousand weapons, but I'm looking at an informatl, semi organized thing. Purpose is to answer a simple question: "I want to learn how to use X. Where should I look?"

I like Cthulhu's idea. List by art, and weapons studied. This way, if a person searches for "sword" they will find the 20+ arts that do sword, and possibly which ones, and can then have a little more to go on than looking in a phone book and seeing "Karate".

Many Thanks!

:asian:

Originally posted by Cthulhu
kobudo: sai, kama, tonfa, rokushakubo, tinbe/rochin (short spear and shield), tekko (think brass knuckles), eku (oar), nunte (bo with a manji sai stuck in one end), nunchaku


Is there an Okinawan (edged) sword? I would think that the royal family's guards at least would have had such a weapon, but I don't ever recall seeing a Ryukyuan sword other than the sai and variants, and the sai presumably is a farmer's weapon.

Well, karate is essentially a peasant's art, and swords were banned by one of the Okinawan kings. Motobu-ryu Udun-di was supposedly the royal art of Okinawa, but I don't know if they trained with swords. I think maybe they did, but I can't seem to find that resource (an old issue of the Journal of Asian Martial Arts).

Okinawa-te has a 'Sword & Hammer' kata, but it is an empty-hand form. I think there is a sword used in Okinawa-te, but it isn't a katana. I believe it would have been more like a butterfly sword.

Cthulhu

I didn't know there was knife study in Akido

I think it's mainly learning basic attacks for the benefit of learning defensive techniques. I'm probably wrong. :)

Cthulhu

Kaith,

Check your messages

Jay

Thanks!

Course, now I got another 1,000,000 questions. :D

:asian:

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Well, karate is essentially a peasant's art

Agreed--I was thinking of the royal family's guards and soldiers. I knew there was a royal family art for example.

Motobu-ryu Udun-di was supposedly the royal art of Okinawa, but I don't know if they trained with swords. I think maybe they did

This link indicates that yes there was a sword but provides no clues on its nature:
http://www.jukokai.com/html/jukokai/three_toide_assoc.html

The article to which you are most likely referring is referenced here:
http://www.goviamedia.com/journal/articles.html
(Search on "udun" within the page.)

I also suspect the sword would have been shorter than the katana.

This is my personal opinion, but anything explained or "documented" by the Juko Kai should be taken with a grain of salt regardless of subject.

The juko-ryu description on the one page lists the katana as one of the weapons practiced under samurai weapons. However, that art is primarily a grappling and throwing art. In fact, I believe the site calls it the equivalent of Okinawan aiki-jujutsu.

I have that issue of the Journal of Asian Martial Arts somewhere. I can't find that journal here. Barnes & Noble used to carry it, but the one in my city doesn't have it. :(

I would imagine that the indigenous Okinawan sword would be based off of a Chinese weapon, since that is who most influenced them before Japan took over. Just as a guess, I would say something like a butterfly sword, Chinese broadsword, or tai chi sword. Nothing that had a forging process as sophisticated as a Japanese daito.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Jay Bell
This is my personal opinion, but anything explained or "documented" by the Juko Kai should be taken with a grain of salt regardless of subject.

I knew nothing of them but after reading that web page I was myself suspicious...the claims seemed a bit broad.

But, I continue to be curious...there simply must have been an Okinawan edged sword of some sort.

These are the "martial artists" (used loosely) that were on the Discovery program not too long ago. They took straight on punches to the groin and throat. A concept he calls "Combat Ki"...which is completely missing the idea altogether.

He somehow gained the title of "Professor", yet it seems this was self-given.

Every piece of information they've put out is based on fraudelent claims.

Oddly enough, the founder created a "college". Where you could send him money and he'd send you a degree. It was promptly investigated when such information was brought to public light. I'm not positive...but I believe he no longer offers his "degree program".

One would be better off learning budo from a ballet class..

I remember that program. I also remember that his section of the program was a damn joke. The narrator was talking about the students learning to take a kick to the groin and walking away as if nothing happened, but the person they showed demonstrating this limped away in obvious pain :) I thought the system had a different name, though...Combat Ki or something equally silly.

I believe this program also had a section on Uechi and Goju, as well as a section on Tanemura's ninjutsu.

I wish someone would do a televised documentary on the Katori Shinto Ryu. I have a book that was published in conjuction with the production of a BBC show on the martial arts that featured the Katari Shinto Ryu, but I've never seen the show air in the U.S.

Cthulhu


Originally posted by Jay Bell
[B]These are the "martial artists" (used loosely) that were on the Discovery program not too long ago. They took straight on punches to the groin and throat.

this is getting to that "showboat" martial arts that get an audiance from a stage. What does any of this crap have to do with martial arts. Demonstrating breaking, absorbing full contact strikes???????This in my opinion is what gives martial arts a bad name. these people can't fight themselves out of a paper bag. Before anyone goes to the "martial arts is more than fighting" I have to say that in its essence, martial arts is exactly that. "martial". the rest is bull and the stuff the stories are made of that start with. "I saw this black belt get the s%#@ kicked out him by a street punk with no training" If they stopped focusing on this type of entertainment maybe they could learn something useful. :soapbox: Chtu, does this post remind you of the forms competition thread?????? sorry!

I wish someone would do a televised documentary on the Katori Shinto Ryu. I have a book that was published in conjuction with the production of a BBC show on the martial arts that featured the Katari Shinto Ryu, but I've never seen the show air in the U.S.

And you probably never will. Katori Shinto ryu is a very well guarded art. Deshi accepted in the ryu to this day must take Keppan.

The Friendship seminar that's done occasionally has Katori Shinto ryu demonstrations...

Please explain Keppan.

I think the only living Westerner allowed to teach Katori Shinto Ryu is in Spain. I believe he's recieved his okuden license. Therefore, anyone other Westerner claiming to teach the Katori Shinto Ryu is most likely not a legitimate instructor. I don't think this person is allowed to grade...just teach. This was a few years ago, though. It is possible another Westerner has been granted license.

Cthulhu

As far as I'm aware, I believe you're correct about the man in Spain. Relnick sensei has a Kyoshi license, but cannot teach at all of Katori Shinto ryu.

Keppan is a blood oath.

Traditional Filipino Weapons, Use, and Combinations


The Single Stick: Olisi, Solo Baston.

The single stick represents the Sword: Golok Sundang Kampilan, Kris, or Olisi. The stick is normally made from rattan, Yakal or Kamagong. It is used for thrusting, slashing, blocking, hooking, disarming, locking, choking, takedowns, and grappling. The stick represents a sword in most instances, but because the Filipino people were banned from the use of their weapons, they adapted and used the same skills they had learned already. Using in place the stick or other allowable tools for trade in the place of the sword, then incorporating these new weapons into the art.

The Double sticks, Dalawa Olisi, Doble Baston:

The double sticks again is meant to represent the Sword: Golok Sundang Kampilan, Kris, or Olisi its just now you have two of them at once. Double sticks can still be used in the same manner as the single stick. Using the double sticks helps to develop all the skills that a single stick training will but more. Working with double sticks, helps develop the empty hand techniques that are part of the art, training both hands at once. The Sinawali is one of the double stick drills that train’s the double hand applications, and empty hand flow. This drill requires the weaving of the sticks in a pattern of numbered and set strikes.

The Long stick-Staff, Spear:

the staff today represents the traditional spear: Karasaik, bangkaw, panabas, and Sibat. The spear and staff are very adaptable and versatile weapons. You will find that Most of the techniques used in the single stick are applicable with them, using the same Slashes, thrusts, hooks, and figure eights, and takedowns, you learn with the single stick. Spear, staff, oar, or long sticks range from 3 to 9 feet long and 1 to 5 inches wide.

Tabak Malii, Olisi palad, and Palm sticks:

Training with a palm stick is usually done with two short sticks, one in each hand. One stick is held evenly in the center of each palm. Traditionally, the weapon was made of steel, which included a ring to place your fingers in. The ends were serrated and pointed, and sometimes included bladed edges for thrusting or slashing. Traditionally used for hooking, thrusting disarms, countering disarms, joint locks and presser point striking. Many of the techniques used with the palm stick are used for the closed balisong.

The Single Dagger, Daga, Knife:

Bolo, Kris, Balaraw, Baraw, Punyal, Sundang, Itak, Balisong, Korambit, and Pinute. The dagger is used for thrusting, slashing, ripping and hooking. The dagger is used both offensively, defensively and many techniques against other weapons. A dagger is held in a number of grips, some examples are, the Saber grip, ice pick grip, scalpel grip, hammer grip or the two-fingered saber grip.

The Double Dagger, Doble Daga, Double Knife:

Bolo, Kris, Balaraw, Baraw, Punyal, Sundang, Itak, Balisong, Korambit, and Pinute. The overall combinations of different daggers or knives are interchangeable. For most though two daggers of the same type of dagger is employed. For realistic purposes, though training in double dagger should be done with a mix of different daggers or knives for adaptability reasons. As with the single dagger they are used for thrusting, slashing, ripping and hooking. The daggers are used both offensively and defensively. The double daggers grips can be varied and mixed suited on many factors at the time of confrontation. There are a number of grips used, some examples are, the Saber grip, ice pick grip, scalpel grip, hammer grip, or the two-fingered saber grip.

Espada Ya Daga: Sword & Knife:

Espada Ya Daga is practiced with a single stick or Sword and a single dagger or palm stick. One of the strongest influences left by the Spanish was the art of Eskrima fencing. The Spanish rapier and dagger systems introduced to the Philippines came through war and the defense of the cultures people, because of all the variables the introduction the art from the Spanish had a considerable influence on the development of what we call eskirma today.

Espada Ya daga shows us the adaptability of the Filipino people and how the art of Eskrima-Kali - Espada Ya Daga styling evolved. Many of the techniques that are found in espada Ya daga came into existence because the Spanish brought the early concepts into the country. After its early introduction into the culture, it was then adapted and incorporated into their art form. Drills using the sword and dagger are short range to medium then medium range to long range. The mix of weapons and styling is also used for controlling an opponent’s bladed weapon.

The sword is held in the predominate hand and the dagger is held in the secondary weapons hand or the alive-hand. Many people misunderstand the concepts behind espada Ya daga. Their thinking tends to lead them to believe that because the daga is in the secondary hand, it is the secondary weapon, in actuality is the predominant weapon and why it is In the alive hand. Most opponents will not understand this concept if untrained in eskrima. Subsequently because of this, they will go for your sword hand instead of the dagger or alive hand.

Most untrained opponents will see the sword in your predominate hand as the first and major threat to them. A good eskrmador or eskrimadoris will allow you to go for the longer blade, as you do they will rush you, either to disarm the sword then to, or to, bring them into close quarter range with the daga for the kill.

Throwing Weapons-Tapon-Tapon:

, Sand, Daggers, Spikes, Rattan Darts, Spear-Karasaik, bangkaw, panabas, and Sibat. Throwing weapons such as these can be thrown from hidden locations in a sniping fashion. Alternatively, used for creating time and confusion in a fight. Part of the styling in Espada Ya Daga employs the use of sand or dirt being tossed into the face of your opponent with the end of the stick or sword. This is done to create confusion and to take control of the fight. If your using a sword instead of a stick you would be cutting off toes and feet when you are able too.

Flexible Weapons; Whip-Latiko-latigo, Rope, Garrote, Chain-Cadena, Scarf-handkerchief.

The use of flexible weapons are found throughout the Philippine archipelago. Though no longer used as affluently today as they once were. The Filipino culture have an array of flexible weapons and techniques to call on from there traditional tribal arts.
Most flexible weapons techniques tend to operate in the reverse of other traditional Filipino weapon techniques.

Most of the time though, Eskrima-Kali stylists first learn the concepts of armed combat applications then progress to empty-hand techniques. To learn rope techniques you need to be proficient in empty hand techniques before learning captures, takedowns, and restraint techniques. There is a variety of rope and chain techniques to choose from, depending on the length, weight, and strength of each weapon. A chain, cord, or heavy rope can be used for whipping strikes. Lighter rope and twine can be fashioned into a noose, or used to capture and bind an attacker.

Projectile Weapons-Blowguns, Darts, Sling Shots, Bows, and Arrows.

The use of these weapons declined significantly after the introduction of Spanish weapons, and sword and dagger techniques. The Filipino people still used such weapons for hunting and survival, but for practical reasons when facing war and combat the new weapons and techniques introduced by the Spanish were used more often. Projectile weapons are stealth weapons and work best when hidden and quietly waiting for the prey or from a distance with the bow and arrow. You will rarely find these weapons taught anymore as part of the format in Eskrima-Kali but they are still very useful and adaptable weapons to train in.

Referance: F.A.T.E. Filipino Martial arts Solo Training Manual
Copyright © 2000/2001 F.A.T.E. all rights reserved.

Please note the last post i did with the information is still in the writing process and is being re-edited and so forth over the next week. When the sections are done for what there being written for, full refrances and cool links will be attached. And many more smithsonian plates.

Being dyslexic sucks sometimes...:(

Ms. J. bows deeply

To be honest, it looked pretty good to me...was very informative. Maybe a little polishing, but still, very good. :)

:asian:

Yeah that is what i am working on now, and my editor finally had a chance to look at it for my dyslexic stuff. However, I have cut it down some and cleaned it up. The other thing i was sort of sweating over was the Eskrima-Kali i wanted to put Eskrima-Kali-Arnis. And was bouncing back and forth because of Modern Arnis and the association to many of the techniques in Modern Arnis now are non sword based but strictly stick and knife.

There are a number of techniques in Modern arnis that if you did with a sword you would cut your hand or arm off. However, arnis i.e. the actual one word has another association to the core art of FMA. Therefore, i have added it into the text and now everything says Eskirma-Kali-Arnis. In addition, I am putting a technique disclaimer with it instead.

I have also changed some of the strong connections to specific Spanish arts because of the volatile amongst the community itself based on historical fact compared to story or tale..

So its more of a generic article now…. I am much happier with it.

I just sent it to one of my Guro’s though to have a look at in full format with pictures, as it will be formatted in the book it goes into. To check it one more time for lists of weapons and applications.

The actual section this comes out of has eight full pics and is formatted in five pages.

Ms. J….


:asian:

In To-Shin Do we train in Stick, Blade, Chord, and Projectile Weapons.

add Shinkendo under katana