Physical Training

[SaiyanPrince]

I searched the whole internet for answers for my question, but I found nothing. Almost everyone is convinced that the only way to generate/produce more Ki is to meditate and do certain "Ki Exercises". I strongly beleive this is false.

Think about this, Who do you think would have stronger Ki, a person who does breathing exercises and meditates less than 30 minutes ever day or a person that does stuff like pushups, situps and runs for hours ever day while still bieng in total control of his breathe every second?

Who do you think would have stronger ki in this situation, A person who does breathing exercises and meditates a couple of hours a day, everday, or a person who does thousands of pushups, situps and runs 100 miles a day everday while still bieng total control of his breathe?

The reason im leaning more over to the physical aspect is because people dont seem to believe that physical training will do anything to strengthen your ki, when it obviously contains a ton of breathing.

So I need to know what you guys think. Thanks.

[Xue Sheng]

I searched the whole internet for answers for my question, but I found nothing. Almost everyone is convinced that the only way to generate/produce more Ki is to meditate and do certain "Ki Exercises". I strongly beleive this is false.

Think about this, Who do you think would have stronger Ki, a person who does breathing exercises and meditates less than 30 minutes ever day or a person that does stuff like pushups, situps and runs for hours ever day while still bieng in total control of his breathe every second?

Who do you think would have stronger ki in this situation, A person who does breathing exercises and meditates a couple of hours a day, everday, or a person who does thousands of pushups, situps and runs 100 miles a day everday while still bieng total control of his breathe?

The reason im leaning more over to the physical aspect is because people dont seem to believe that physical training will do anything to strengthen your ki, when it obviously contains a ton of breathing.

So I need to know what you guys think. Thanks.

Physical training does have something to do with it. Ki also known as Qi has internal, mediation and external, physical training aspects. And if you do qi training like 12 animals or 8 pieces of brocade you move and you gain strength as well as health. If you train Qi by sitting you are training strictly the internal aspect of it.

But what I think you are confusing Qi/Ki training with strength training. Strength training builds big muscles Qi training gives you greater health and makes you stronger. You may not be able to bench press 400 lbs, but you do not need to in order to be a good martial artist. Actually great muscular strength can get in the way. Stronger Ki/Qi does not mean you are physically stronger it means you are healthier.

Basic Traditional Chinese medicine theory says that is you have strong Qi you are healthy if you have weak Qi you are sick and if you have no Qi you are dead. It also says that over working muscles can cause blockages of Qi, which can lead to sickness and death. Train to hard you get injured that is basically what I am talking about. Keep training injured you get worse.

Now someone that trained Qi and does martial arts is capable of what appears to be great power when what it truly is they have trained Qi and they have learned to relax therefore their musculature does not impede the flow of Qi.

Think about this how much advantage is there in having a large Bicep when it comes to throwing a straight punch?

Is the bigger bicep giving you a stronger punch or impeding the punch since it is antagonistic to the triceps which is the muscle that actually gives power for the straight punch?

And how useful is strong musculature if you do not breath correctly?

(Ki is Japanese, Qi is Chinese)

[SaiyanPrince]

Ok, what Im saying is that in my opinion, training your physical body and meditating both train your Ki equally, neither one is dominant over the other, they are just different ways of training.

Meditation is used for improving ones concentration and ki, while training the physical body is used for improving ones bodily attributes and Ki.

[SaiyanPrince]

Physical training does have something to do with it. Ki also known as Qi has internal, mediation and external, physical training aspects. And if you do qi training like 12 animals or 8 pieces of brocade you move and you gain strength as well as health. If you train Qi by sitting you are training strictly the internal aspect of it.

But what I think you are confusing Qi/Ki training with strength training. Strength training builds big muscles Qi training gives you greater health and makes you stronger. You may not be able to bench press 400 lbs, but you do not need to in order to be a good martial artist. Actually great muscular strength can get in the way. Stronger Ki/Qi does not mean you are physically stronger it means you are healthier.

Basic Traditional Chinese medicine theory says that is you have strong Qi you are healthy if you have weak Qi you are sick and if you have no Qi you are dead. It also says that over working muscles can cause blockages of Qi, which can lead to sickness and death. Train to hard you get injured that is basically what I am talking about. Keep training injured you get worse.

Now someone that trained Qi and does martial arts is capable of what appears to be great power when what it truly is they have trained Qi and they have learned to relax therefore their musculature does not impede the flow of Qi.

Think about this how much advantage is there in having a large Bicep when it comes to throwing a straight punch?

Is the bigger bicep giving you a stronger punch or impeding the punch since it is antagonistic to the triceps which is the muscle that actually gives power for the straight punch?

And how useful is strong musculature if you do not breath correctly?

(Ki is Japanese, Qi is Chinese)

At least you understand. Just to make things clear I am NOT talking about physical strength(muscles) In fact, to me muscles would just get in my way and slow me down(like you said). I am Martial artist so the only time I use weights is for running or punching.

If you ask any martial artist, "What can make you jump higher or run faster?" most of them will say stronger/toned leg muscles, but I would say stonger Ki. The funny thing is when people say "It would be so great to fly" and I say "If you hate running, then how do you plan on flying? It takes much more energy to just levitate than to run a couple of miles" and they go "huh? flying doesnt take no energy!!" and I start laughing because they dont understand.

My question to you is this, imagine you lived on a planet for a couple of years with 5x earths normal gravity and then you came back to earth, do you think your legs would be bulging with leg muscles? or do you think you would be faster and stronger than everyone else on earth?

This is the Ki(power/energy) im talking about.

[Jade Tigress]

Ok, what Im saying is that in my opinion, training your physical body and meditating both train your Ki equally, neither one is dominant over the other, they are just different ways of training.


I disagree and I don't think of training Chi (Qi/Ki) solely as meditation.

There are certain physical ways of exercise that produce the development of Chi. Things like circular movements, or for example, if you're in a horse stance and want to work on strengthening the legs you tip the pelvis back, that develops the muscle. If you are in a horse stance and want to develop Chi, you tip the pelvis forward. You're still using controlled breathing in both situations, but you will develop more Chi with the pelvis tipped forward.

Pushups, sit ups, running, whatever, develop strength and stamina. Just because your controlling your breathing doesn't mean you're developing Chi equal to performing specific Chi Gong exercises.

Specific exercises produce specific results. If you want stamina and weight loss you do cardiovascular exercises. If you want big arms you lift weights and do pushups. If you want tight abs you do situps. Etc. If you want to develop chi, you do chi gong exercises.

[Xue Sheng]

OK. Let me put it this way

I use to train Xingyi, still would if a teacher was available. And a big part of training Xingyi is Santi. Which is the basic Xingyi stance. Much the same idea as the horse stance (different body positioning) idea that Jade Tigress was talking about.

Santi Shi bottom left picture
http://www.geocities.com/ycgf/xingyi.htm

Now many Xingyi masters do not believe you are serious about training Xingyi unless you can stand in Santi 20 minutes per side. Now if you do this you have leg strength. But you are not training Qi if you are just standing in Santi to gain leg strength. If that is all you are doing you could stand in Santi while watching TV or listening to the radio or talking on the phone. And if leg strength is all your after then there are multiple ways to get it that are much more entertaining than standing in Santi

Part of training Santi is learning focus, laser beam pinpoint focus. Also you train the internal to feel how you get the energy/power from the ground where your back foot it to the palm or fist that is held in front of you. Now you are training Qi. You are trying to figure out you to get the energy/power/Qi/Ki from point s, the foot, to point b the hand.

I have seen some fairly old skinny little Xingyi masters that can hit you with the force of a freight train and they attribute that to proper training of Santi.

Tai Chi is very internal and if you deal with a Tai Chi master they to can hit you with incredible force. My last Yang style Sifu was in his 60s, about 5'5" look very frail and could hit me at incredibly close range with power you would not believe. I am 6'1" and he could while lightly touching me during push hands knock be back several feet. I absolutely guarantee you he does not do sit-ups push-ups, run or come from a planet with 5x the gravity. He comes from Hong Kong actually. I can also guarantee you he trains Qi and has trained Qi for many years.

He will likely have this power for the rest of his life, which will probably be very long. How many 60 to 90 year olds do you see that have this power?
As to can you train Qi by physical activity that gains you muscle strength, that makes you jump higher and run faster if it makes you healthier it effects your Qi or it could be said that it is the other way around.

But there is a point where you over do it and adversely affect your Qi and you will eventually find you get injured more or suffer more aches and pains. Also per TCM athletes suffer so many problems in later life because they over train and cause blockages that prevent proper Qi flow.

[Jade Tigress]

OK. Let me put it this way


Now many Xingyi masters do not believe you are serious about training Xingyi unless you can stand in Santi 20 minutes per side. Now if you do this you have leg strength. But you are not training Qi if you are just standing in Santi to gain leg strength. If that is all you are doing you could stand in Santi while watching TV or listening to the radio or talking on the phone. And if leg strength is all your after then there are multiple ways to get it that are much more entertaining than standing in Santi

Part of training Santi is learning focus, laser beam pinpoint focus. Also you train the internal to feel how you get the energy/power from the ground where your back foot it to the palm or fist that is held in front of you. Now you are training Qi. You are trying to figure out you to get the energy/power/Qi/Ki from point s, the foot, to point b the hand.



Agreed. And I didn't mean to imply that a change in body position alone develops chi. Like XS's example about standing in Santi, you can't just stand in horse stance in front of the TV with your pelvis tipped forward and expect that you are developing chi. There are many components to chi gong exercises that contribute to the whole picture of chi development.

Chi is about more than "total control of your breath".

[HG1]

you can't just stand in horse stance in front of the TV with your pelvis tipped forward and expect that you are developing chi.
Wouldn't it be great if you could. I'd be able to catch up on all the shows I miss.
Are you training two kinds of horse stance one with tipped pelvis and one without?

[SaiyanPrince]

This is a quote from Bruce lee on fitness.


In Jeet Kune-Do, physical conditioning is a must for all martial artists. If you are not physically fit, you have no business doing any hard sparring. To me, the best exercise for this is running. Running is so important that you should keep it up during your lifetime. What time of the day you run is not important as long as you run. In the beginning you should jog easily and then gradually increase the distance and tempo, and finally include sprints to develop your 'wind.'
Let me give you a bit of warning: just because you get very good at your training it should not go to your head that you are an expert. Remember, actual sparring is the ultimate, and the training is, only a means toward this. Besides running, one should also do exercises for the stomach - sit-ups, leg raises, etc. Too often one of those big-belly masters will tell you that his internal power has sunk to his stomach; he's not kidding, it is sunk and gone! To put it bluntly, he is nothing but fat and ugly.


Now, was Bruce Lee not one of the greatest Martial artist? he did not do any internal arts, and yet his Ki was amazing. I'm not going against Internal arts because I meditate myself, I'm trying to make you people see that certain Ki exercises are not the only way to become more powerful.

[Carol]

This is a quote from Bruce lee on fitness.


In Jeet Kune-Do, physical conditioning is a must for all martial artists. If you are not physically fit, you have no business doing any hard sparring. To me, the best exercise for this is running. Running is so important that you should keep it up during your lifetime. What time of the day you run is not important as long as you run. In the beginning you should jog easily and then gradually increase the distance and tempo, and finally include sprints to develop your 'wind.'
Let me give you a bit of warning: just because you get very good at your training it should not go to your head that you are an expert. Remember, actual sparring is the ultimate, and the training is, only a means toward this. Besides running, one should also do exercises for the stomach - sit-ups, leg raises, etc. Too often one of those big-belly masters will tell you that his internal power has sunk to his stomach; he's not kidding, it is sunk and gone! To put it bluntly, he is nothing but fat and ugly.


Now, was Bruce Lee not one of the greatest Martial artist? he did not do any internal arts, and yet his Ki was amazing. I'm not going against Internal arts because I meditate myself, I'm trying to make you people see that certain Ki exercises are not the only way to become more powerful.

Can't see anywhere in this thread where anyone said certain Ki exercises were the only way to be more powerful.

Personally I don't think a quote from Bruce Lee and an insistence to "make you people see" is something that proves anything, one way or another...but that's just me. :idunno:

[SaiyanPrince]

Can't see anywhere in this thread where anyone said certain Ki exercises were the only way to be more powerful.

Personally I don't think a quote from Bruce Lee and an insistence to "make you people see" is something that proves anything, one way or another...but that's just me. :idunno:

Im not reffering to just the people on this thread, im talking to everyone. Read Jade Tigress'es second post, he says

"There are certain physical ways of exercise that produce the development of Chi. Things like circular movements, or for example". Bruce Lee did no such thing, and the reason Im quoting Lee is because he is a prime example of a Martial artist.

[Xue Sheng]

This is a quote from Bruce lee on fitness.


In Jeet Kune-Do, physical conditioning is a must for all martial artists. If you are not physically fit, you have no business doing any hard sparring. To me, the best exercise for this is running. Running is so important that you should keep it up during your lifetime. What time of the day you run is not important as long as you run. In the beginning you should jog easily and then gradually increase the distance and tempo, and finally include sprints to develop your 'wind.'
Let me give you a bit of warning: just because you get very good at your training it should not go to your head that you are an expert. Remember, actual sparring is the ultimate, and the training is, only a means toward this. Besides running, one should also do exercises for the stomach - sit-ups, leg raises, etc. Too often one of those big-belly masters will tell you that his internal power has sunk to his stomach; he's not kidding, it is sunk and gone! To put it bluntly, he is nothing but fat and ugly.

Now, was Bruce Lee not one of the greatest Martial artist? he did not do any internal arts, and yet his Ki was amazing. I'm not going against Internal arts because I meditate myself, I'm trying to make you people see that certain Ki exercises are not the only way to become more powerful.

All that is great and it is good training but I am sorry but it is not training Qi and it is not Qigong breath training. God training yes, but sorry not qi/ki, or at least not the internal you are looking for. And yes running is a good thing and it trains you how to breathe to run but that does not always equate to how to breathe to fight. And there is an awful lot more to Martial arts then fighting but I have done an awful lot of sparring in my time.

You are looking for me to agree with you or tell you are correct in your assumptions and I cannot do that and it appears that if I do not agree with you your plan is to label me a charlatan, or a “big-belly master”, and tell me I have let it go to my head

And I am also getting the distinct feeling this is about to degenerate into a “my martial arts is better than your martial arts thread” or my way is better than your way” and I no longer have time for those

I have answered you questions an responded in good faith and I do not feel that any further response from me would be a wate of my time

And I personally feel Bruce Lee was one to the most amazing martial artist of our time. But he also said "Be like water"

Enjoy your training.

[SaiyanPrince]

All that is great and it is good training but I am sorry but it is not training Qi and it is not Qigong breath training. God training yes, but sorry not qi/ki, or at least not the internal you are looking for. And yes running is a good thing and it trains you how to breathe to run but that does not always equate to how to breathe to fight. And there is an awful lot more to Martial arts then fighting but I have done an awful lot of sparring in my time.

You are looking for me to agree with you or tell you are correct in your assumptions and I cannot do that and it appears that if I do not agree with you your plan is to label me a charlatan, or a “big-belly master”, and tell me I have let it go to my head

And I am also getting the distinct feeling this is about to degenerate into a “my martial arts is better than your martial arts thread” or my way is better than your way” and I no longer have time for those

I have answered you questions an responded in good faith and I do not feel that any further response from me would be a wate of my time

And I personally feel Bruce Lee was one to the most amazing martial artist of our time. But he also said "Be like water"

Enjoy your training.

I understand, scratch everything I said and look at it this way. Do you think a person who is active like bruce lee would be more likely to be able to use and extend his Ki in a more effective way VS a couch potato who never did any type of martal arts?

If you say yes then, then my question is answered because physical training does help the Martial artist to be able to use his body more naturally, wich allows him/her to use Ki with little or no internal arts training, like Bruce lee.

To clear things up, Im not calling you a big-belly master, but there are those "Masters" who claim they have developed their internal power when all they have is fat and ugly(fraud), and again Im not against Internal arts because in Ninjutsu they have Internal training and that is just as important to us as physical training. Yes, I train in Ninjutsu:ninja:.

I beleive there are Masters:mst: in Internal arts that can beat on me with one finger though.

[Jade Tigress]

Do you think a person who is active like bruce lee would be more likely to be able to use and extend his Ki in a more effective way VS a couch potato who never did any type of martal arts?



Qi has nothing to do with that. That's a matter of being in shape or out of shape. Of having martial arts experience, or expertise vs. having no experience.


If you say yes then, then my question is answered because physical training does help the Martial artist to be able to use his body more naturally, wich allows him/her to use Ki with little or no internal arts training, like Bruce lee.


No one said physical excerise doesn't develop Qi, rather the TYPE of exercise is a factor. Pushups, situps, and running are not the most effective way to develop Qi. It will develop physical strength and stamina which will give you an advantange over someone who has less physical strength and stamina. Obviously physical training is a benefit, but if there is no more to it, then how come runners, weightlifters, etc. aren't throwing out Qi right and left? Plus, I think you're confusing what qi gong exercises are and what internal training is.

[shesulsa]

There is strength and there is power - they are not the same.

If you are driving a car with two over-inflated tires, one normally inflated tire and one flat, you're going to ruin the car if you keep going that way, right?

If all tires are overinflated, one must take a firm, precise action to release the extra air just as if all are underinflated, one must wrestle with the air hose and carefully monitor how much pressure each tire has.

But if all are in balance, you have optimum performance, no?

I am not well-educated in Bruce Lee history, but I would have to say balance is key.

:asian:

[PeaceWarrior]

Hello SaiyanPrince!

No offence, but it seems like you are getting some (if not most) of your information from DBZ or similiar cartoons (I gathered this from the 5x gravity statement). Now I LOVE DBZ, but I have to disagree with some things you have said- namely that one can develop ki power by doing physical workouts alone. Now, it would be helpful if we could accurately define ki, but we really cant. I agree that if one does all kinds of pushups and running and weight training with breath control, you indeed are developing a certain kind of strength and a healthy body as well. A strong heart would mean more bloodflow, more bloodflow requires more air (breath) so more ki, right? In a certain sense this is correct, but I think ki is much much more than that. If your after the type of fa-jing demonstrated by masters of internal styles, you will not attain this by simply doing physical exersises. You may be able to imitate it, you may develop blinding speed and incredible strength without gaining tons of muscle, but you are not expressing true ki power. Its like in wing chun, we do chainsaw punches, and at first its hard because you want to pump them out as fast and as hard as you can, but you keep getting told "softer, softer, relax" and you think "wait a minute, how am I supposed to knock him out with a a soft punch?" the truth is, true internal power must be developed over years and years of diligent practise, completely relaxed and very focused training. I agree, if you traveled to a planet with 5x earths gravity, you would come back stronger and faster, and probably stronger ki too, but heres why: a planet with 5x gravity would have a stronger magnetic feild right? so your body would have to compensate by strenthening its own magnetic feild, therfore a stronger ki. what do you think? haha, i love talking about this stuff!

Good day and God bless!

K

[SaiyanPrince]

Hello SaiyanPrince!

No offence, but it seems like you are getting some (if not most) of your information from DBZ or similiar cartoons (I gathered this from the 5x gravity statement). Now I LOVE DBZ, but I have to disagree with some things you have said- namely that one can develop ki power by doing physical workouts alone. Now, it would be helpful if we could accurately define ki, but we really cant. I agree that if one does all kinds of pushups and running and weight training with breath control, you indeed are developing a certain kind of strength and a healthy body as well. A strong heart would mean more bloodflow, more bloodflow requires more air (breath) so more ki, right? In a certain sense this is correct, but I think ki is much much more than that. If your after the type of fa-jing demonstrated by masters of internal styles, you will not attain this by simply doing physical exersises. You may be able to imitate it, you may develop blinding speed and incredible strength without gaining tons of muscle, but you are not expressing true ki power. Its like in wing chun, we do chainsaw punches, and at first its hard because you want to pump them out as fast and as hard as you can, but you keep getting told "softer, softer, relax" and you think "wait a minute, how am I supposed to knock him out with a a soft punch?" the truth is, true internal power must be developed over years and years of diligent practise, completely relaxed and very focused training. I agree, if you traveled to a planet with 5x earths gravity, you would come back stronger and faster, and probably stronger ki too, but heres why: a planet with 5x gravity would have a stronger magnetic feild right? so your body would have to compensate by strenthening its own magnetic feild, therfore a stronger ki. what do you think? haha, i love talking about this stuff!

Good day and God bless!

K

I love you..finally, a person who agrees whith me. I love talking about this stuff too. I agree with you completley because you are saying that a person does not directley train their Ki but indirectley, this is what I think also. Everybody else keeps denying that theres no way a person can develop his Ki through high intensity training(pushups, running), but that makes no sence to me. You are right when you say that I get some of my info from dbz, but not all.

I am 17, but I have been training for months now, physically and mentally and I know from experience that physical training does develop Ki and it is not a slow process, it is only a slow process if you limit your training. The trick is to not slack off, you have to train continuously until you hit your limit everytime. If you take a couple of days of to kick back and watch tv or w/e you do, your energy(Life force, Ki) is slowly fading and this is why people quit physical training because they see no results from training a few hours every now and then. You have to activate your mind and make it agree with you, train with ambition, dont limit yourself to 1 type of excercise, and if you realize that you are forcing yourself to train, then that means your mind does not agree with you(this is bad). Keep reminding yourself why you are training, and train because you want to not because you are programmed to.

I beleive meditation is very important for a Martial artist to improve concentration and awareness but it is not a requirement. A Martial artis can meditate all day and another Martial artist can physically train all day day, but in the end, the difference between their strength will depend on who put more heart into their training. Just like you see in the anime Dragonballz, Piccollo trains his mind most of the time while Goku, Vegeta and their freinds train physically to their limits. At the beggining of the show Piccollo and Goku are almost evenly strong because their ambitions were evenley matched, even though Piccollo was training to beat Goku one day and take over the world, while Goku was training to Protect earth. Goku trains his mind too, but not nearly as much as Piccollo.

I know you guys will look down on me now that you know im 17, and watch anime, but thats fine, because I speak from my heart. Peace.

[Xue Sheng]

I love you..finally, a person who agrees whith me. I love talking about this stuff too. I agree with you completley because you are saying that a person does not directley train their Ki but indirectley, this is what I think also. Everybody else keeps denying that theres no way a person can develop his Ki through high intensity training(pushups, running), but that makes no sence to me. You are right when you say that I get some of my info from dbz, but not all.

I am 17, but I have been training for months now, physically and mentally and I know from experience that physical training does develop Ki and it is not a slow process, it is only a slow process if you limit your training. The trick is to not slack off, you have to train continuously until you hit your limit everytime. If you take a couple of days of to kick back and watch tv or w/e you do, your energy(Life force, Ki) is slowly fading and this is why people quit physical training because they see no results from training a few hours every now and then. You have to activate your mind and make it agree with you, train with ambition, dont limit yourself to 1 type of excercise, and if you realize that you are forcing yourself to train, then that means your mind does not agree with you(this is bad). Keep reminding yourself why you are training, and train because you want to not because you are programmed to.

I beleive meditation is very important for a Martial artist to improve concentration and awareness but it is not a requirement. A Martial artis can meditate all day and another Martial artist can physically train all day day, but in the end, the difference between their strength will depend on who put more heart into their training. Just like you see in the anime Dragonballz, Piccollo trains his mind most of the time while Goku, Vegeta and their freinds train physically to their limits. At the beggining of the show Piccollo and Goku are almost evenly strong because their ambitions were evenley matched, even though Piccollo was training to beat Goku one day and take over the world, while Goku was training to Protect earth. Goku trains his mind too, but not nearly as much as Piccollo.

I know you guys will look down on me now that you know im 17, and watch anime, but thats fine, because I speak from my heart. Peace.

First I could be wrong here, but I think you missed the point of the previous poster.

Second let me ask you a couple questions.

1) Are you saying that if a person lifts weights a lot and runs a lot they are getting stronger ki/qi therefore they are healthy?

2) Are you saying a person that just meditates is not healthy?

[Jade Tigress]

First I could be wrong here, but I think you missed the point of the previous poster.



I don't think so. You just beat me to it.

[PeaceWarrior]

I love you..finally, a person who agrees whith me. I love talking about this stuff too. I agree with you completley because you are saying that a person does not directley train their Ki but indirectley, this is what I think also. Everybody else keeps denying that theres no way a person can develop his Ki through high intensity training(pushups, running), but that makes no sence to me. You are right when you say that I get some of my info from dbz, but not all.

I am 17, but I have been training for months now, physically and mentally and I know from experience that physical training does develop Ki and it is not a slow process, it is only a slow process if you limit your training. The trick is to not slack off, you have to train continuously until you hit your limit everytime. If you take a couple of days of to kick back and watch tv or w/e you do, your energy(Life force, Ki) is slowly fading and this is why people quit physical training because they see no results from training a few hours every now and then. You have to activate your mind and make it agree with you, train with ambition, dont limit yourself to 1 type of excercise, and if you realize that you are forcing yourself to train, then that means your mind does not agree with you(this is bad). Keep reminding yourself why you are training, and train because you want to not because you are programmed to.

I beleive meditation is very important for a Martial artist to improve concentration and awareness but it is not a requirement. A Martial artis can meditate all day and another Martial artist can physically train all day day, but in the end, the difference between their strength will depend on who put more heart into their training. Just like you see in the anime Dragonballz, Piccollo trains his mind most of the time while Goku, Vegeta and their freinds train physically to their limits. At the beggining of the show Piccollo and Goku are almost evenly strong because their ambitions were evenley matched, even though Piccollo was training to beat Goku one day and take over the world, while Goku was training to Protect earth. Goku trains his mind too, but not nearly as much as Piccollo.

I know you guys will look down on me now that you know im 17, and watch anime, but thats fine, because I speak from my heart. Peace.

Haha, Im 22 and I still watch anime. Whos the bigger dork? Dont worry, we wont look down on you. Youre a cool guy in my book.
Its good to see that you put all of your heart into your training, which is the most important thing, IMHO. One should be open to new ways of thinking to truly grow in ones training. The problem with getting your knowledge from cartoons is there is a lot of misinformation that comes from the imagination of the writers. They put things in there that sound cool, but have little basis in reality.

Now, about using physical training to develop ki- what I meant was, if all you did was physical workouts, running, pushups, etc; you would be developing endurance, muscular strength, and a healthy body. All of these things would certainly help (to an extent) ki development. By having a stronger heart, you would have more bloodflow to carry oxygen to the body, and you may be aware that air or oxygen is crucial for Chi flow and/or power, so in that sense, yes doing these types of workouts would help in a way.

What I did NOT mean is that one could make his/her ki stronger and stronger simply by doing physcial workouts. Im sorry but I just do not believe this is the case. In fact, I have been taught that if you do too many external workouts like pushups, weightlifting and the like, without proper stretching and relaxation you can cause tenseness and stiffness in the muscles, which would cut off the flow of chi. My sifu explains it like this: in order for Chi to flow powerfully, every fiber of every muscle must be relaxed completely. Say you have a water hose- If you take it and squeeze it as hard as you can, the water will become stuck and pressurized in the hose. Only by relaxing your grip will it flow as it should. Your muscles are the exact same way - when you tense them, you are essentially trapping chi between the muscle fibers, causing the sensation of strength. But for true ki power, your entire body must be completely relaxed until the moment of impact, where you trap all of that chi in an explosive force.

Especially in a self defense encounter, if you are training external (using muscle strength) you will most definetly react external, and even if you train internal (relaxed and focused) it is very difficult to respond correctly unless you are at a certain level...which like i said takes years of focused and diligent training.

I wish I had more time to go in depth, but I have to go to class. Keep training hard saiyan prince, your path will become illuminated for you. Dont limit yourself to boundaries, but keep an open mind to what others have to say.

God bless
Keith

[Xue Sheng]

What I did NOT mean is that one could make his/her ki stronger and stronger simply by doing physcial workouts. Im sorry but I just do not believe this is the case. In fact, I have been taught that if you do too many external workouts like pushups, weightlifting and the like, without proper stretching and relaxation you can cause tenseness and stiffness in the muscles, which would cut off the flow of chi.

Agreed

This is what I was talking about previously from the Traditional Chinese Medicine point of view as to why many athletes as they get older appear not to be healthy and have a lot of reoccurring injury issues, they over train external.

[SaiyanPrince]

First I could be wrong here, but I think you missed the point of the previous poster.

Second let me ask you a couple questions.

1) Are you saying that if a person lifts weights a lot and runs a lot they are getting stronger ki/qi therefore they are healthy?

2) Are you saying a person that just meditates is not healthy?

1) This is probally the third time Im clearing myself up, I dont lift weights and dont care about muscular strength. I think lifting weights is the worst thing a Martial artist can do. Also, as I said in my previous post, Physicall training indirectley trains ki wich means as your getting a stronger heart you get more oxygen cells wich helps with developing Ki and it conditions your body for a fight. I didnt mean to say that you are directley strengthening your Ki wich is what Ki excercises are for.

2) You misread what I wrote, I said if 1 person Meditates all day and another person physically trains all day, then the difference between their strength would be whoever put more heart into their training. This means that to me Meditating is just as great as physicall training, depending on what type of Martial artist you are.

[SaiyanPrince]

Haha, Im 22 and I still watch anime. Whos the bigger dork? Dont worry, we wont look down on you. Youre a cool guy in my book.
Its good to see that you put all of your heart into your training, which is the most important thing, IMHO. One should be open to new ways of thinking to truly grow in ones training. The problem with getting your knowledge from cartoons is there is a lot of misinformation that comes from the imagination of the writers. They put things in there that sound cool, but have little basis in reality.

Now, about using physical training to develop ki- what I meant was, if all you did was physical workouts, running, pushups, etc; you would be developing endurance, muscular strength, and a healthy body. All of these things would certainly help (to an extent) ki development. By having a stronger heart, you would have more bloodflow to carry oxygen to the body, and you may be aware that air or oxygen is crucial for Chi flow and/or power, so in that sense, yes doing these types of workouts would help in a way.

What I did NOT mean is that one could make his/her ki stronger and stronger simply by doing physcial workouts. Im sorry but I just do not believe this is the case. In fact, I have been taught that if you do too many external workouts like pushups, weightlifting and the like, without proper stretching and relaxation you can cause tenseness and stiffness in the muscles, which would cut off the flow of chi. My sifu explains it like this: in order for Chi to flow powerfully, every fiber of every muscle must be relaxed completely. Say you have a water hose- If you take it and squeeze it as hard as you can, the water will become stuck and pressurized in the hose. Only by relaxing your grip will it flow as it should. Your muscles are the exact same way - when you tense them, you are essentially trapping chi between the muscle fibers, causing the sensation of strength. But for true ki power, your entire body must be completely relaxed until the moment of impact, where you trap all of that chi in an explosive force.

Especially in a self defense encounter, if you are training external (using muscle strength) you will most definetly react external, and even if you train internal (relaxed and focused) it is very difficult to respond correctly unless you are at a certain level...which like i said takes years of focused and diligent training.

I wish I had more time to go in depth, but I have to go to class. Keep training hard saiyan prince, your path will become illuminated for you. Dont limit yourself to boundaries, but keep an open mind to what others have to say.

God bless
Keith

Thanks man, I agree with you 110%, too much physical training is bad for you If you dont know what your doing, and it does cut the flow of ki if you are always tensing and stiffening your muscles.

When I train I balance physicall excercise, stretching, and Meditation, even when Im not meditating I put most of my concentration on a breathing technique to develop ki and mantain control of my breathe.

So you see I am not biased to physical training, I actually started of only training internally, learning how to control my ki to move to certain parts of my body and meditating, this is the site I learned some stuff from www.astraldynamics.com (http://martialtalk.com/forum/www.astraldynamics.com)

Thanks again bro, I learned a lot from you, you are the type of freind I would love to have and are huge inspiration to me, and I have a freind thats is 30 years old and still watches Anime also, so your no dork. PEACE!!!

[PeaceWarrior]

Ah, I understand now. Im sorry I never saw where you clarified before, either that or I overlooked it. Yeah it sounds like we are definetly on the same page. I think it is very important to have cardio fitness and endurance.

Its good to hear that you dont want to lift weights etc, as I believe this would hinder your pursuit of internal martial arts. It sounds like you are on the right path and Its great that you are starting training at a young age!

God bless

Keith

[PeaceWarrior]

Thanks man, I agree with you 110%, too much physical training is bad for you If you dont know what your doing, and it does cut the flow of ki if you are always tensing and stiffening your muscles.

When I train I balance physicall excercise, stretching, and Meditation, even when Im not meditating I put most of my concentration on a breathing technique to develop ki and mantain control of my breathe.

So you see I am not biased to physical training, I actually started of only training internally, learning how to control my ki to move to certain parts of my body and meditating, this is the site I learned some stuff from www.astraldynamics.com (http://martialtalk.com/forum/www.astraldynamics.com)

Thanks again bro, I learned a lot from you, you are the type of freind I would love to have and are huge inspiration to me, and I have a freind thats is 30 years old and still watches Anime also, so your no dork. PEACE!!!

Hey, we are friends as far as I am concerned :) Sounds like youve definetly got the right idea with your training. If the fire burning in you does not go out you will learn a lot in this lifetime.

Now Im curious, what art(s) do you study? I think you said it before but Im too lazy to go back a find it (lol) anyways its getting a bit late for me, but I look forward to talking with you in the future. Peace bro!

k

[SaiyanPrince]

LOL, the funny thing is I just recentley found out that I learned so much from everyone here without noticing it. I was to busy trying to convince people to agree with me that I didnt notice that I was learning at the same time. You guys are actually right and im wrong. I still have so much to learn!!!!!!:confused:. Sorry If I upset anyone by not agreeing with you before, I do now:). Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge with me, PEACE:ultracool

[SaiyanPrince]

Hey, we are friends as far as I am concerned :) Sounds like youve definetly got the right idea with your training. If the fire burning in you does not go out you will learn a lot in this lifetime.

Now Im curious, what art(s) do you study? I think you said it before but Im too lazy to go back a find it (lol) anyways its getting a bit late for me, but I look forward to talking with you in the future. Peace bro!

k

I dont think I clarified any of this before, lol. I really did just learn that physical training alone wont develop Ki, I was just to ignorant to accept that fact, sorry for confusing you.:confused:

I study Ninjutsu!:ninja:but its more complicated than that, my freind teaches me! yup, the one that watches anime. Tell me if youd like to know more about it.;) Later, freind....

[Xue Sheng]

1) This is probally the third time Im clearing myself up, I dont lift weights and dont care about muscular strength. I think lifting weights is the worst thing a Martial artist can do. Also, as I said in my previous post, Physicall training indirectley trains ki wich means as your getting a stronger heart you get more oxygen cells wich helps with developing Ki and it conditions your body for a fight. I didnt mean to say that you are directley strengthening your Ki wich is what Ki excercises are for.

2) You misread what I wrote, I said if 1 person Meditates all day and another person physically trains all day, then the difference between their strength would be whoever put more heart into their training. This means that to me Meditating is just as great as physicall training, depending on what type of Martial artist you are.

Since you have misinterpreted what I have written previously, than I guess a little misinterpretation on my part is ok

First a clarification; Ki and Qi are the same thing. The difference is Ki is Japanese and Qi is Chinese so I generally use the terminology Qi since I train Internal CMA styles. Also it can be spelled Chi but that is not pinyin that is Wade-Giles and I tend towards pinyin

Now let me say you are talking about training two different things Qi and strength. Actually you are also talking about training 2 different types of Qi as well; internal and external.

Is there strength training in internal martial arts? That depends on what you think. I feel stance training is both strength training, Qi training and it also trains endurance. It is not push ups, sit-ups or running. Nothing wrong with push ups, sit ups and running but it is not training Qi. It will make your body stronger, and this is a good thing and it will ASSIST in training Qi but it is decidedly not training qi. The same as I can change the tires on my car but it still will not run without a good battery and the battery is fairly useless with bad tires. But putting tires on your car will NOT make it run if the battery is weak nor will it increase the flow of electricity in the electrical system, they work together to make a car run well.

You can be an Olympic runner and still have trouble with the slow/low movement of some styles of Tai Chi. and you would be incredibly healthy physically but that DOES not mean you have strong Qi flow. You can have strong Qi but there may be blockages due to OVER Training physically which WILL give you health problems. You can do 1000 push ups but that does not mean you have strong Qi flow either, it means you have strong arms. This could actually block qi or make it very difficult to train it and later cause you health problems.

You may be able to hit VERY hard but you use WAY to much muscular strength for an internal CMA to do it. If you are training qi for martial arts purposes you are training to relax your muscles in order to allow the qi to travel more freely and easily, to be able to direct it where you need it. Look at some of the CMA people that are considered internal CMA masters of their art. They are generally thin and look to be and are in good health and they are very good martial artists. But they do not have big biceps or muscular bodies. And an 80 year old internal master that can hit with the power of a freight train is not doing 1000 push ups a day or running 100 miles. In the old days, WAY BACK before I was 17 (which was also long ago) many internal masters would not train someone if they found them doing a lot of strength training because it was counter productive to training Qi for internal MA. In other words if you were training with a Xingyi master and he found out you were training Shaolin he would tell you to make a choice because they train qi differently, internal vs. external.

And I am sorry but you do not indirectly train Qi, you can train to assist your training of Qi but you do not indirectly train Qi. Training qi is very direct and very focused training.

I am also beginning to think you are confusing having a lot of Qi with training qi and they are not the same. You may want to look for and read the book by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming - "The Root of Chinese Qigong: Secrets for Health, Longevity, and Enlightenment" it will explain qi in great detail.

[Jade Tigress]

LOL, the funny thing is I just recentley found out that I learned so much from everyone here without noticing it. I was to busy trying to convince people to agree with me that I didnt notice that I was learning at the same time. You guys are actually right and im wrong. I still have so much to learn!!!!!!:confused:. Sorry If I upset anyone by not agreeing with you before, I do now:). Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge with me, PEACE:ultracool


You didn't upset anyone by not agreeing. That's what discussion forums are for, to share and discuss our ideas. The most important thing is that you recognized you learned something. We all have much to learn. The problem comes when we think we already have all the answers. Good luck to you in your training.

[SaiyanPrince]

Since you have misinterpreted what I have written previously, than I guess a little misinterpretation on my part is ok

First a clarification; Ki and Qi are the same thing. The difference is Ki is Japanese and Qi is Chinese so I generally use the terminology Qi since I train Internal CMA styles. Also it can be spelled Chi but that is not pinyin that is Wade-Giles and I tend towards pinyin

Now let me say you are talking about training two different things Qi and strength. Actually you are also talking about training 2 different types of Qi as well; internal and external.

Is there strength training in internal martial arts? That depends on what you think. I feel stance training is both strength training, Qi training and it also trains endurance. It is not push ups, sit-ups or running. Nothing wrong with push ups, sit ups and running but it is not training Qi. It will make your body stronger, and this is a good thing and it will ASSIST in training Qi but it is decidedly not training qi. The same as I can change the tires on my car but it still will not run without a good battery and the battery is fairly useless with bad tires. But putting tires on your car will NOT make it run if the battery is weak nor will it increase the flow of electricity in the electrical system, they work together to make a car run well.

You can be an Olympic runner and still have trouble with the slow/low movement of some styles of Tai Chi. and you would be incredibly healthy physically but that DOES not mean you have strong Qi flow. You can have strong Qi but there may be blockages due to OVER Training physically which WILL give you health problems. You can do 1000 push ups but that does not mean you have strong Qi flow either, it means you have strong arms. This could actually block qi or make it very difficult to train it and later cause you health problems.

You may be able to hit VERY hard but you use WAY to much muscular strength for an internal CMA to do it. If you are training qi for martial arts purposes you are training to relax your muscles in order to allow the qi to travel more freely and easily, to be able to direct it where you need it. Look at some of the CMA people that are considered internal CMA masters of their art. They are generally thin and look to be and are in good health and they are very good martial artists. But they do not have big biceps or muscular bodies. And an 80 year old internal master that can hit with the power of a freight train is not doing 1000 push ups a day or running 100 miles. In the old days, WAY BACK before I was 17 (which was also long ago) many internal masters would not train someone if they found them doing a lot of strength training because it was counter productive to training Qi for internal MA. In other words if you were training with a Xingyi master and he found out you were training Shaolin he would tell you to make a choice because they train qi differently, internal vs. external.

And I am sorry but you do not indirectly train Qi, you can train to assist your training of Qi but you do not indirectly train Qi. Training qi is very direct and very focused training.

I am also beginning to think you are confusing having a lot of Qi with training qi and they are not the same. You may want to look for and read the book by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming - "The Root of Chinese Qigong: Secrets for Health, Longevity, and Enlightenment" it will explain qi in great detail.

Cool, thanks for this:boing1:!

[SaiyanPrince]

You didn't upset anyone by not agreeing. That's what discussion forums are for, to share and discuss our ideas. The most important thing is that you recognized you learned something. We all have much to learn. The problem comes when we think we already have all the answers. Good luck to you in your training.

Thank you, I understand now:high5:.

[SaiyanPrince]

[quote=Xue Sheng;660986]
I am also beginning to think you are confusing having a lot of Qi with training qi and they are not the same. quote]


Wait a second....is that what you thought I meant?:confused: sorry for mixing it up, I was trying to say physical training gives you more Ki energy, I agree it doesnt train Ki at all, thats a different exercise all together. Correct me if I'm wrong please:) . OMG, I probally confused everyone here when I said physical exercise trains or develops Ki, thats not what I meant at all SORRY AGAIN:waah:,. I dont know the meaning of many words in English since im from Russia, so the words I used like Training and Developing I took out of context. I thought those words meant "getting more of" but now that I looked up the dictionary, they mean totally different things!!! WOW!

[SaiyanPrince]

dang, i dont know how to delete posts.

[Xue Sheng]

[quote=Xue Sheng;660986]
I am also beginning to think you are confusing having a lot of Qi with training qi and they are not the same. quote]


Wait a second....is that what you thought I meant?:confused: sorry for mixing it up, I was trying to say physical training gives you more Ki energy, I agree it doesnt train Ki at all, thats a different exercise all together. Correct me if I'm wrong please:) . OMG, I probally confused everyone here when I said physical exercise trains or develops Ki, thats not what I meant at all SORRY AGAIN:waah:,. I dont know the meaning of many words in English since im from Russia, so the words I used like Training and Developing I took out of context. I thought those words meant "getting more of" but now that I looked up the dictionary, they mean totally different things!!! WOW!

Don't worry about it, I am use to translation problems, my in-laws native language is not English either.

Enjoy the training

[bydand]

Really, don't worry about translation problems. I'm in the same boat almost that Xue Shang is in, my Mother-in-Law is from Mass. and I swear to God she doesn't speak English as her first language either. :)

On a real note, the area I live in has a very heavy French background and 1/2 the people you meet really don't speak English at home, even though they were born in the US. I am used to missed word meanings all the time, kind of figured this may be what was going on here a bit.

[Xue Sheng]

Really, don't worry about translation problems. I'm in the same boat almost that Xue Shang is in, my Mother-in-Law is from Mass. and I swear to God she doesn't speak English as her first language either. :)

On a real note, the area I live in has a very heavy French background and 1/2 the people you meet really don't speak English at home, even though they were born in the US. I am used to missed word meanings all the time, kind of figured this may be what was going on here a bit.

HEY!!! Watch it.... I grew up in Massachusetts :)

[PeaceWarrior]

haha...back on subject now :)

I think that perhaps it would be accurate to say that even when you are studying an internal art to develop chi, the training will always start out 90% physical and 10% energy. As you continue to train in a totally relaxed manner, with good focus and breathing, gradually the balance tips the other way. You could say that your movements change from more of a "muscle" feeling to a "mind" feeling. This is really hard to explain, its just something you have to feel. And its gradual, nothing happens overnight. Our goal should be 10% physical and 90% energy. That said, there are many more things to understand (and be able to use) in an internal art than simply developing chi, things like yeilding, absorbing, redirecting, becoming super strong in your stance, etc. There is so much to learn. If someone was to simply meditate all the time, without any previous physical training, i dont care how strong their chi is, if they went up against say a boxer, wrestler, or even a good street fighter, they are going to get thumped bad.

[SaiyanPrince]

haha...back on subject now :)

I think that perhaps it would be accurate to say that even when you are studying an internal art to develop chi, the training will always start out 90% physical and 10% energy. As you continue to train in a totally relaxed manner, with good focus and breathing, gradually the balance tips the other way. You could say that your movements change from more of a "muscle" feeling to a "mind" feeling. This is really hard to explain, its just something you have to feel. And its gradual, nothing happens overnight. Our goal should be 10% physical and 90% energy. That said, there are many more things to understand (and be able to use) in an internal art than simply developing chi, things like yeilding, absorbing, redirecting, becoming super strong in your stance, etc. There is so much to learn. If someone was to simply meditate all the time, without any previous physical training, i dont care how strong their chi is, if they went up against say a boxer, wrestler, or even a good street fighter, they are going to get thumped bad.

ROFL:lol:, thats true, and its likley that the person is overweight and is scared of fighting. Thanks for your insight!

[Xue Sheng]

ROFL:lol:, thats true, and its likley that the person is overweight and is scared of fighting. Thanks for your insight!

Or they could be a high level Qigong practitioner who sees no reason to fight.

And or the record; training qi by meditation does not equate to overweight. And many people train for many different reasons and the fact that they do not have a strict physical exercise routine does not mean they are out of shape or lacking. They train hard at what they believe is best for them and if they are training high level Qi they tend to avoid the external because it adversely affects the training.

I have tried to train high levels and it is not easy. It takes way too much concentration and the complete lack of concentration at the same time and without a very highly trained teacher available to you 24/7 it can be very dangerous. I no longer work at training high levels.

Additionally many of those that truly and strictly train Qi will out live us all, you should not take that type of training lightly.

[PeaceWarrior]

Or they could be a high level Qigong practitioner who sees no reason to fight.

And or the record; training qi by meditation does not equate to overweight. And many people train for many different reasons and the fact that they do not have a strict physical exercise routine does not mean they are out of shape or lacking. They train hard at what they believe is best for them and if they are training high level Qi they tend to avoid the external because it adversely affects the training.

I have tried to train high levels and it is not easy. It takes way too much concentration and the complete lack of concentration at the same time and without a very highly trained teacher available to you 24/7 it can be very dangerous. I no longer work at training high levels.

Additionally many of those that truly and strictly train Qi will out live us all, you should not take that type of training lightly.

Good point. My Sifu is very very high level in Chi Kung, which is only because he was a live in disciple of his Chi Kung master, which took over twenty years to acheive. He is probably almost 70, but he has an uncanny youthful energy that constantly amazes me. Some day I hope to learn from him about training strictly Qi.

[SaiyanPrince]

Or they could be a high level Qigong practitioner who sees no reason to fight.

And or the record; training qi by meditation does not equate to overweight. And many people train for many different reasons and the fact that they do not have a strict physical exercise routine does not mean they are out of shape or lacking. They train hard at what they believe is best for them and if they are training high level Qi they tend to avoid the external because it adversely affects the training.

I have tried to train high levels and it is not easy. It takes way too much concentration and the complete lack of concentration at the same time and without a very highly trained teacher available to you 24/7 it can be very dangerous. I no longer work at training high levels.

Additionally many of those that truly and strictly train Qi will out live us all, you should not take that type of training lightly.

Hey, it was a joke :), and qi gong requires physical movement so im not talking about those practitioners, the people I was refering to were those who only meditate and never threw a punch or kick in their entire life, but have strong ki.

[SaiyanPrince]

Good point. My Sifu is very very high level in Chi Kung, which is only because he was a live in disciple of his Chi Kung master, which took over twenty years to acheive. He is probably almost 70, but he has an uncanny youthful energy that constantly amazes me. Some day I hope to learn from him about training strictly Qi.

Its cool to see how much you respect and honor your master!

[PeaceWarrior]

I feel so blessed to have the opportunity to study with him. He has taught me more about martial arts than I could have ever hoped to learn. Hes a good man, and a wonderful mentor and teacher. I really do hope that I can emulate him in my life, truly. Its a great thing when you find exactly what you were looking for just around the corner.

Peace

[Kimasterterralegion]

Yes I Believe push-ups and physical exercise build your Ki But it doesn't teach the soft version the concentration, form, and massively controlled breathing that you'll need to focus and control your Ki. But I'm not arguing.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

breathing exercises and meditates less than 30 minutes[/I] ever day or a person that does stuff like pushups, situps and runs for hours ever day while still bieng in total control of his breathe every second?

Who do you think would have stronger ki in this situation, A person who does breathing exercises and meditates a couple of hours a day, everday, or a person who does thousands of pushups, situps and runs 100 miles a day everday while still bieng total control of his breathe?]

Greetings I am not sure whom would have stronger Qi since breathing is just one aspect of Qigong and then again what type of breathing?
Mediation again what type of mediation? here is a thought on Push ups and situps and running for hours "San Gong" then who would have more Qi generated?
In regards to the second question both are extreme cases.Does performing a set of Baduanjin(8 brocades) for 16 hours a day give you more of a health effect than say 3 times a day. Would running 100 miles make you stronger or just cause Heart problems? I really do not know in Qigong it is about balance and without balance you could not generate much Qi in the first place.