The current issue of Martial Art magazine from www.cfwenterprises.com has an article on Okinawa-Te. The previous issue's Table of Contents is at this page (http://www.cfw2.com/magazine.asp?content_id=1769).

Am I the only one being repeatedly spammed by these people?

My instructor mentioned the article in this magazine to me, but I've yet to see it.

Cthulhu

I couldn't find the article but I am getting spamed by them.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

I am getting spamed by them.

Me too, and complaints have been fruitless. They're getting me both at home and at work.

Originally posted by arnisador
Me too, and complaints have been fruitless. They're getting me both at home and at work.

Usually, when dealing with pro spammers, both complaints and unsubscribing are a no-no. Actually the opposite may happen, when you reply in any form (especially when sending an "unsubscribtion mail" as per instructed in the spam mail) you are sending them a message that this is a valid address that is read regularly!

The best way to handle these is to set your mail service or mail reader to filter out all mail from the specific address by putting it all into trash or specific spam folder. Look into your mail reader software or mail service, whichever you use. Most online mail services, like Hotmail and Yahoo provide address filtering or address blocking services for free.

Does anybody have any more web sites to look up this okinawan-te art? There's only one school in my area here that does it and they didn't really represent themselves very well. I'd like to know more about the art in general so if anyone has info. it would be appreciated.

You could try www.okinawate.com (http://www.okinawate.com), but it hasn't been updated in about 3 years. Like nearly every other system, there's been some political B.S. lately that's been mucking up the works.

Sigh.

Cthulhu

Who are the contenders for the throne?

Gordon Doversola, the system founder is one. Mike Pecina is another. A ways back, a guy named Hanrahan broke off and formed a system called Wa-te Ryu, which is just Okinawa-te with a different name, really. The curriculum is just a wee bit different, and he's given Japanese names to the kata. Also, he's instituted dan rankings, which Okinawa-te does not have. Still, the essentials are basically Okinawa-te. I don't know of anyone else trying to get power in the organization, nor do I particularly care. When things get too political, I tend to shy away. Not my bag.

Cthulhu

Not having dan rankings must make it easier to avoid politics--you don't need anything they have to offer.

After black belt, everything depends on a combination of seniority and the amount of forms you know. There are only a couple of people who know all, or at least most, of the forms: Gordon Doversola (of course), and I believe a guy named Larry Delano. Delano seems content to teach and I don't believe he's involved with the political crap at all.

Cthulhu

I was just reading over the website mentioned earlier and noticed some things.

……….The early, Chinese settlers brought with them to Okinawa a primitive martial art and primarily fought amongst themselves.
I am curious as to where he got this info.
The first king of Okinawa and his successors began a period of unification and development with an increase of formal relationships with China, Japan, Korea and trade with Java, Indonesia, the Philippines and Arabia.

There were several hundered years worth of kings on Okinawa before this king mentioned here, who’s name was Sho Hashi.
Sho Hashi was the first king to unify Okinawa.

In the seventeenth century, Okinawa was invaded by Japan and under Japanese authority, the Okinawans could not practice or develop martial arts. Possession of any weapon was forbidden.

King Sho Hashi had implemented a weapons ban 100 years before the Japanese ever arrived in Okinawa in 1609.

In the beginning of the nineteenth century, the island fully assimilated to Japan.

The 19th century would be the 1800’s. It wasn’t assimilated at all. It was still paying a yearly tribute to China until the end of the 19th century. It didn’t become a prefecture (state) until 1879.
The Okinawan lang. was still used in the classroom until the 1930’s

The Japanese noticed the overwhelming, physical condition and splendid physique of the Okinawan conscripts. Inquiring, they found that the Okinawans practiced the art of te. The government soon authorized the inclusion of te as physical education in schools.

Actually no. It took many years for Itosu to get Karate recognized and introduced into the school system.
The name "Okinawan te" was changed to karate-jutsu. To replace the word okinawan, kara was chosen because it represented the T'ang dynasty.

The named was actually changed from Kara (to/tang) to Kara (ku).
The former name was Ryukyu Kempo Tode Jutsu



In the 1920s, the Japanese government invited karate expert, Gichin Funakoshi, to demonstrate in Tokyo. Hence, the beginning of modern karate.


The Japanese Government did not invite him to Tokyo.Actually it was Funakoshi’s friend that invited him to go to Tokyo.
Funakoshi worked as a “handy-man” to support himself when he first arrived in Tokyo.

Also, I was wondering where this version of Okinawa te came from since I didn't see any connections to any of the schools in Okinawa. All I saw was the the founder had studied with some Kung Fu and judo people.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Also, I was wondering where this version of Okinawa te came from since I didn't see any connections to any of the schools in Okinawa. All I saw was the the founder had studied with some Kung Fu and judo people. [/B]

Good observations, I was wondering the same thing.

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Good observations, I was wondering the same thing.


I was just curious because in the past I have seen westerners claiming to be teaching “Okinawa Te” as in the style like Motobu Ryu.
There was even one person that claimed to be the North American Representative for Motobu Ryu but when I called the Motobu Ryu Honbu Dojo in Okinawa they said they had never heard of this person. Needless to say the person claiming this was shocked when I posted what I had found on the Internet.
This kind of thing happens every couple of years………a new “buzz word” comes out in one of the Martial Arts rags and overnight everybody claims to have known about it and teaches it. When the novelty wears off another “buzz word” comes along and the whole things start over again. In the late 70’s early 80’s it was the Ninja craze, the mid 80’s it was something else, in the early 90’s it was yet another thing……….lately I have noticed more and more “Okinawa Te” dojo popping up……..some are teaching the real deal and some are just teaching crap that has been thrown together from other styles and they call it “Okinawa Te”.
This kind of activity is usually done by either a McDojo or a dojo that has thrown together a little of this or a little of that which makes it convent to “slide” from one popular craze to another.

I know Okinawa-te has a specific meaning here, but doesn't it more-or-less mean "Okinawan boxing" and hence has a very generic sound? (I don't know that it's grammatically correct.) Mightn't someone open up a Karate school and put up a sign like that much as one might advertise "Chinese boxing" for a specific Kung Fu school?

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I was just curious because in the past I have seen westerners claiming to be teaching “Okinawa Te” as in the style like Motobu Ryu.


While there is supposedly someone with the surname of Motobu somewhere in the lineage, there is no claim to any connection with Motobu Ryu.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by arnisador
I know Okinawa-te has a specific meaning here, but doesn't it more-or-less mean "Okinawan boxing" and hence has a very generic sound? (I don't know that it's grammatically correct.) Mightn't someone open up a Karate school and put up a sign like that much as one might advertise "Chinese boxing" for a specific Kung Fu school?

Like I said. I didn't see any connection to Okinawa. Only Chinese styles and judo were mentioned.
Which kind of makes the name "Okinawa Te" seem out of place.

Originally posted by Cthulhu
While there is supposedly someone with the surname of Motobu somewhere in the lineage, there is no claim to any connection with Motobu Ryu.

Cthulhu

I didn't see it mentioned in the lineage.

An extremely truncated lineage was mentioned in a 1960's Black Belt magazine article featuring Gordon Doversola.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu
An extremely truncated lineage was mentioned in a 1960's Black Belt magazine article featuring Gordon Doversola.

Cthulhu

Doversola recalls Nagusuko with great admiration and respect. "He was a great Sensei (instructor). He was patient, non-demanding and thorough. He was a regular guy. He'd come to my apartment and if I were still in bed he'd cook breakfast for the two of us."
Nagusuko had studied Okinawa-te when he was a child. His great Sensei was the late Kihei Motobu, who had only one arm. Because of his handicap Motobu developed and perfected the "circular block," in which one hand protected both sides of his body. This is now a distinguishing feature of Okinawa-te. Nagusuko has never been affiliated with any organization nor has he established a school of his own. When he left Los Angeles he requested that Doversola not affiliate with any association and that he keep his school independent and original.

The Kihei Motobu mentioned in the Black Belt Article isn’t mentioned in the Motobu family tree nor is he mentioned in Motobu Ryu lineage tree.

I did a quick search and found these:
http://quis.qub.ac.uk/seidokan/lineage.html
http://www.usankfva.com/GNline.html

Neither one mentions "Kihei" and I find no listings for "Kihei Motobu" connected to "Motobu Ryu"

Is there an 'official' lineage listed online anywhere?

The following sites refer to "Grand master Kihei Motobu" in relation to Okinawa-Te.
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1965/mar65/okinawate/okinawate.html
http://www.geocities.com/okinawa_te_2000/history.html
http://www.ntsworld.com/okinawa-te/_private/BB1.html

They appear to have the same info however.

One would think that more sites would list the individual who founder or was a Gm in an art.

:confused:

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Is there an 'official' lineage listed online anywhere?

Yes in several books I have as well as on an Official video on Motobu Ryu

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
One would think that more sites would list the individual who founder or was a Gm in an art.
:confused:

Sometimes there isn't much info on them if they died before WWII or just after it.

This URL
http://www.usankfva.com/GNline.html

Is Rod Sacharnoski claiming rank from Toma Shian.......I saw the certificate he tried to palm off as Toma's it was totally bogus.
Do a search on E-Budo under Sacharnoski and you will find loads of info.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
The Kihei Motobu mentioned in the Black Belt Article isn’t mentioned in the Motobu family tree nor is he mentioned in Motobu Ryu lineage tree.

Like I said, no connection to Motobu Ryu.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Like I said, no connection to Motobu Ryu.

Cthulhu


I just find it odd to call a martial art "Okinawa XXXX" when there is little or no connection to Okinawa. This Nagusuko seems to be a bit of a mystery man as well.

I have never seen anything that would suggest the kata come from there..........just all seems a bit odd.

These are some rather bizarre historical accounts. The likes of which I have never read about nor heard of before.
Could you tell me from what source this info came from?

===Copywritten content removed by request===


The History Of Karate
BY Donald Bohan

Shichi-Dan
Isshin-Ryu Karate-Do
May 5,1978
http://www.bohans-family.com/Dojo/history_of_karate.htm

“By means of guerilla warfare, the Okinawans were able to harass the Japanese troops; sue to the distance between Japan and Okinawa, the occupying forces had great difficulty in continuously replacing their materials and their steadily depleting forces. In an effort to strengthen their position and subjugate the Okinawans, the Japanese ordered the confiscation of all metals on the island. This meant all weapons, tools, cutlery, and every source of replacement, including cooking pots and pans. All forges were dismantled and removed. The Okinawans were disarmed; possession of any weapon was forbidden. The Japanese now thought they had eliminated the strength of the opposition and that their task would be considerable easier. It was - but only for a short time.”

ME:
This is really inaccurate.
The Okinawans put up a modicum of resistance.
There was no guerilla warfare, in fact the battle to take the island of Okinawa was a short one. The Okinawan King was carted off to Tokyo (Edo) and made a “guest” of the Shogun.
The weapons ban on Okinawa happened about 100 years prior to the Japnese led invasion. There was no ban on metal cooking utensils or farm tools by the Japanese.


”It was decided that each village would have a community knife which would be kept in an open square attached to a heave anchored chain and which would be guarded by two Japanese soldiers. This plan seemed to prove satisfactory. Since the trouble had apparently ceased, the occupying forces began to relax their guard. “

ME:
This is some of the nonsense that was propagated in much the same way the myth of the Naihanchi kata was invented by peasants.
As for the “Occupying forces” there was a skeleton crew guarding Okinawa.

”But, the Okinawans did not relax. Among the old patriarchs there was discussion of old stories remembered from their youth. Some of their people had been to China and had brought back information and stories about the incredible unarmed fighters in Cathay, who were able to defeat armed and armored opponents with nothing but their hands and feet and occasionally with the use of unusual wooden fighting instruments.”

ME:
These weren’t “old stories”….those same Chinese were living in Okinawa at the time of the invasion.

”After lengthy conferences, the best Okinawan fighters were selected and sent to China to learn the Chinese methods. They were to bring the knowledge home and were given authority to offer high salaries for the importation of teachers. When this was accomplished, the Okinawans began training and started fashioning the wooden instruments. In order to carve them, the trained karate fighters killed the guards and stole the village knives. “

ME:
The above is just plain ridiculous.


“The karate training was kept completely secret and guarded against informers. Anyone suspected of being a traitor was kidnapped at night and taken in a boat with a small pig or goat about a mile offshore. There the animal's throat was slit, and it was thrown overboard. When the sharks arrived, the informer invariably lost his balance and fell into the water. It was an infallible security system.”

ME:
Again, nonsense.

“The centrifugal force sticks ("Nunchaku" and "Tonfa") could smash to pieces military armor and the men wearing it. "Okinawa-Te" (Okinawan hands) became a consuming terror, a psychological trauma which did not end until the advent of modern firearms in the hands of all occupation troops."

ME:
This is right out of a comic book.

No idea. Ask whoever created the site. I believe the site that stuff came from was/is associated with Mike Pecina's group. I have a strong suspicion that info was put up on their own, from whatever goofy sources they had on hand. My mother (who is Okinawan) never told me any stuff like that. <shrug>

Like most other systems, a lot of political crap has infested the organization, to the point where there is no longer a single organization, but many groups trying to grasp control. I think this is why most of the Web sites haven't been updated for some time.

Once it gets political, I'm out. That's one of the reasons I love Ray Dionaldo's FCS so much...one of the key reasons for its existence is the study of the FMA without the political B.S. that runs rampant in quite a few FMA systems.

Cthulhu

Most of this is speculation and possibly word of mouth. As with any history. Okinawa is extremely skewed. The majority of this is not from actual research but from teachers embelishments of possibly history.
Okinawa had many families but no real structure. After the Han invasions many on the island were of Northern Chinese or Southern Chinese decent. Today there is a blend of the three cultures of Mainlanders, Taiwanese, and Japanese mixed in with what is left of the original inhabitants. The language barrier shifted by force in the 1930's and slightly over the 100 year period beforehand. Asian text began to follow the left right flow to match Roman based languages around 1935 with the purchace of more modern publishing systems. Karate was renamed to take the honor away from the Tang dynasty. Okinawa recieved it's new official name. Martial systems that carry the banner of Ryu were distictly different than the "founders" systems who created them. Three main branches of martial art began to flourish: The White Crane modifications, the Southern Shoalin modified systems and some Taiwanese North/South variations. Most of the Ryu systems are based loosely on the White Crane system. It is from the Taiwanese variation that Kempo is believed to evolve with some influences from the White Crane system. Still unsure as of yet. The Han invasion as well as the Greek empire really complicated the tracing of influence.

Most of this is speculation and possibly word of mouth. As with any history. Okinawa is extremely skewed. 1)The majority of this is not from actual research but from teachers embelishments of possibly history.

2)Okinawa had many families but no real structure. 3)After the Han invasions many on the island were of Northern Chinese or Southern Chinese decent. Today there is a blend of the three cultures of Mainlanders, Taiwanese, and Japanese mixed in with what is left of the original inhabitants. The language barrier shifted by force in the 1930's and slightly over the 100 year period beforehand. 4)Asian text began to follow the left right flow to match Roman based languages around 1935 with the purchace of more modern publishing systems. 5)Karate was renamed to take the honor away from the Tang dynasty. 6)Okinawa recieved it's new official name. 7)Martial systems that carry the banner of Ryu were distictly different than the "founders" systems who created them. Three main branches of martial art began to flourish: The White Crane modifications, the Southern Shoalin modified systems and some Taiwanese North/South variations. 8)Most of the Ryu systems are based loosely on the White Crane system. It is from the Taiwanese variation that Kempo is believed to evolve with some influences from the White Crane system. Still unsure as of yet. 9)The Han invasion as well as the Greek empire really complicated the tracing of influence.





Since this is your first post I feel kind of bad ripping it apart like this…….



1. Actually most of what you have written in your post follows those same lines. There is much about Okinawan history written by various Japanese/ Okinawa Profs.



2. Totally wrong. Okinawa had a very structured class system.



3. Han invasion??? When was that? Please supply your source for this information.



4. Asian text began to go from right to left after the GHQ cut the size and complexity of the language. However, magazines, book and newpapers still print from top to bottom, R to L and L to R…….



5. Karate’s kanji were changed due to the soon to be war with China.



6. I have read several articles on this but I would like to hear you version in more detail before I comment.



7. That’s nonsense.



8. Again, nonsense.



9. What????

There was this song in the 80s by the Thompson Twins Called "Lies". The chorus went something like "lies, lies, lies yeah-eah, they're gonna get you, lies, lies, lies yeah-eah, they won't forget you"! It wasn't a good song, but the lyrics seemed apprapeau.

Didn't this Doversola guy, who by the way looked like a cheap rip-off of Ron Jeremy, have kata called the "Gorilla Form" and the "Dung Beetle Kata Number one"?

Plastic.

Ostensibly the repetition of three's in the martial kata's were intended to be symbolic of the 3 invasions/retreats during the Han invasion of China and Taiwan. The Hagga, the Southern Kingdom, Taiwan (or the East Coast) depending on your perspective. It is believed in the 1602 retreat warriors/monks fled to Taiwan and in 1622(?) some retreated again to the islands between Okinawa and Taiwan which eventually led to sharing from the southern kingdom as well as what was happening in Taiwan.

Robert,
Where do you get your information> You think it's nonsense that Goju, Wado, Isshin and specifically Uechi most definatly is Fukien White Crane kung fu? We were however discussing Okinawa-te and I don't believe you are the authority here. If you don't even know about the White Crane influence you might need to go back to Okinawan Ryu history 101.

Right to left writing as in "SIHT" vs. "THIS" was prominent especially in Uchina until it was changed to L-R. we are talking about Horizontal text. before 1930 and the Japanese influence any book from before that would read backwards from modern printing. So it would say Te Kara or Di Tou vs. Kara Te and Tou Di. So the lies people promote are easily tracible through this shift. Your history is skewed by the Japanese, Robert. You are the nonsense. gokigenyo

One fister,
I can only guess what you do with it. Naming Ron Jeremy in your post helps me guess. If your question is half honest, then no there is no beetle form unless you study one. There are many ape forms in kung fu and silat. This would be more of a study in intent, breathing and hypnosis. But there is no kata in the body of Okinawa-te called those. If some guy would come in asking for it Gordon could definately show you something you thought was a beetle form although he might pick up a guitar and microphone.
Ron Jeremy? Uh? he's Hawaiian? Lest we forget what Jim Kelly would reply to your comments or even Joe Lewis or Bob Wall? All I can say is for the many who thought he was full of it, they either never spent more than 5 minutes with the guy or they realized the hard way that he was the most infuencial martial, albeit unknown, genius in American Martial history. Ed Parker looked up to him. So did Tetsumo Oshima. In fact only you seem to think he is full of crap. The most ripped off guy in martial history and you think it's funny to say he resembles a guy half his age? I think he would be proud. Al Thomas, David German and Sonny Gascon. I drop these names for the real martial artist do a search so they can flame you Mr. One Fist.

[QUOTE=RRouuselot]

Since this is your first post I feel kind of bad ripping it apart like this…….
Yes you should have studied more.


1. Yes much written but just like any history. It is not nessasarily the whole truth or even the truth at all.

2. Structured how? What the hell do you mean by this? Structured by Caste? or in the specific heritage? Schooling? language? honestly you really should think before setting out to argue a vauge statement. Did they all pay tribute to Sho Hashi? Did they only learn Shorin ryu?

3. You don't know what the Han invasion is? Do you know what Storming the beach at Normandie is? I take it you think this has something to do with Okinawa being invaded by Han? Did Jesus ride a bicycle? Sorry you were incabable of nonlinear thought. I will be more linear like your "Karate".

4. You missed the point of this being Horizontal. A good place to see this would be ancient book museum.

5. You got to be kidding me. You believe this crap about the upcoming war changing the kanji? You gotta be in some cult. This 1937 event changed what happened in 1934? Uhh can we say "Illogical Fallacy". When "Di" was introduced as "Te" to the children of Japan the teaching method was empty of weapons. So the name Empty was added to emphasize the void of weapons training in now "Te". And since most of Uchina's history is related to us through idiots of Japan and Nihongo. You should go back to the origin of culture and language to find truth. That is why scholars must wakrimasu the goen.

6. Okinawa was china as Hawaii is U.S. like a territory.

7. OK I see you nee proof. Many people who founded a branch (current name) did not nessasarily call their teachings by the same modern name. For instance it is commonly said that Choki Motobu did Shuri-te or even Shorin-Ryu (depending on who you ask) but his books and techniques are very different from the modern variation. The style nameing phenom only came about around the early 20's. James Mitose for instance only called it Kenpo Jujitsu what is now called Kosho Ryu. Today we wear the knot on the front but they wore it on the side. (more like chuan fa)

8. As I discussed this previously I digress, pick up a book. how about even. Barefoot Zen.

9. Martial arts were organized in formal settings first with the Bablyonians and Greeks. When Alexander overtook India and parts of China the Greek thought was a great influence in India and later to eventually swarm and spread through China. At the same time a northern influence was developing. But since the empires were vast and short lived combined with China's turbulent history with great number of people moving from one part of the country to another in retreat of the Han army. Martial wisdom was mixed greatly in China and Okinawa and then even further in Hawaii and America. Other countries are easier to trace as they have less migration such as Japan, Korea and so on.

Robert,
Where do you get your information> You think it's nonsense that Goju, Wado, Isshin and specifically Uechi most definatly is Fukien White Crane kung fu? We were however discussing Okinawa-te and I don't believe you are the authority here. If you don't even know about the White Crane influence you might need to go back to Okinawan Ryu history 101.

Goju and Uechi only recently came from China......Wado on the other hand was developed in Japan by a man named Ohtsuka based on what he had learned from several Okinawans. Basically Okinawan karate with a Japanese twist.
What I would like to know is which kata in karate do you think are white crane kung fu kata.......

2. Structured how? What the hell do you mean by this? Structured by Caste? or in the specific heritage? Schooling? language? honestly you really should think before setting out to argue a vauge statement. Did they all pay tribute to Sho Hashi? Did they only learn Shorin ryu?



3. You don't know what the Han invasion is? Do you know what Storming the beach at Normandie is? I take it you think this has something to do with Okinawa being invaded by Han? Did Jesus ride a bicycle? Sorry you were incabable of nonlinear thought. I will be more linear like your "Karate".



4. You missed the point of this being Horizontal. A good place to see this would be ancient book museum.



5. You got to be kidding me. You believe this crap about the upcoming war changing the kanji? You gotta be in some cult. This 1937 event changed what happened in 1934? Uhh can we say "Illogical Fallacy". When "Di" was introduced as "Te" to the children of Japan the teaching method was empty of weapons. So the name Empty was added to emphasize the void of weapons training in now "Te". And since most of Uchina's history is related to us through idiots of Japan and Nihongo. You should go back to the origin of culture and language to find truth. That is why scholars must wakrimasu the goen.



6. Okinawa was china as Hawaii is U.S. like a territory.



7. OK I see you nee proof. Many people who founded a branch (current name) did not nessasarily call their teachings by the same modern name. For instance it is commonly said that Choki Motobu did Shuri-te or even Shorin-Ryu (depending on who you ask) but his books and techniques are very different from the modern variation. The style nameing phenom only came about around the early 20's. James Mitose for instance only called it Kenpo Jujitsu what is now called Kosho Ryu. Today we wear the knot on the front but they wore it on the side. (more like chuan fa)



8. As I discussed this previously I digress, pick up a book. how about even. Barefoot Zen.



9. Martial arts were organized in formal settings first with the Bablyonians and Greeks. When Alexander overtook India and parts of China the Greek thought was a great influence in India and later to eventually swarm and spread through China. At the same time a northern influence was developing. But since the empires were vast and short lived combined with China's turbulent history with great number of people moving from one part of the country to another in retreat of the Han army. Martial wisdom was mixed greatly in China and Okinawa and then even further in Hawaii and America. Other countries are easier to trace as they have less migration such as Japan, Korea and so on.





2. There are several books you should read about Okinawan society, one is written by George Kerr, the other was written by a friend of mine named Patrick McCarthy. There are more but those you get you started.



3. I ask you for more information and you respond with insults and slurs. Which shows me you have no proof of any “Han invasion” of Okinawa.



4. I have been to many museums and rare book stores in Japan and Okinawa.



5. I base my point not only on research done by non-Japanese but also on direct conversations with Okinawans. What’s yours based on?



6. Okinawa was a tributary state to China up until the late 19th century…..again you need to bone up on your history.



7. Before Motobu’s day and before it karateka often practiced only 1 maybe 2 kata….these would often call their style whatever kata they practiced, for example if one practiced Naihanchi kata the did “Naihanchi” style. It wasn’t until people started being more open and learning more and more kata that they actually started to use Shurite Nahate etc….This info came from Motobu’s book….I suggest you read it.



8. Prove it.



I have to say, after reading your comments I have come to the conclusion that 1) you are really misinformed or 2) just hear to troll or 3) a combination of both.

Just a bit of history:

===Copywritten content removed by request===
Selected References



Farkas, Emil & Corcoran, John (1983), The Dictionary of Martial Arts, Overlook, New York


Frederic, Lois (1991), A Dictionary of the Martial Arts, Tuttle, Vermont

Funakoshi, Gichin (1935), Karate-Do Kyohan, Kobundo Book Company, Tokyo

Funakoshi, Gichin (1975), Karate-Do: My Way of Life, Kodansha International, Tokyo

Hassell, R.G. (1984), Shotokan Karate: Its History and Tradition, Focus Publications

Higaonna, Morio (1987), Traditional Karate-Do-Okinawa Goju Ryu, Volume l, Minto Research an Publishing, Tokyo

Maliszewski, Michael (1992), Meditative-Religious Traditions of FightingArts & Martial Ways, Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 1, Number 3, Via Media Publishing Company, Erie Pennsylvania

Nagamine, Shoshin (1976), The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do, Tuttle, Tokyo

Nakaya, Takao (1986), Karate-Do History and Philosophy, JSS Publishing, Texas

Reid, Howard & Croucher, Michael (1991), The Way of the Warrior, The Overlook Press, New York

Spiessbach, Michael (1992), Bodhidharma: Meditating Monk Martial Arts Master or Make Believe?, Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 1, Number 4, Via Media Publishing Company, Erie Pennsylvania

Wingate, Carrie (1993), Exploring Our Roots: Historical and Cultural Foundations of the Ideology of Karate- Do, Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 2, Number 3, Via Media Publishing Company, Erie Pennsylvania

Wong, James (1978), A source book in the Chinese martial arts: History, philosophy, systems and styles: vol. 1, Koinonia Productions, Stockton, California

One fister,
I can only guess what you do with it. Naming Ron Jeremy in your post helps me guess. If your question is half honest, then no there is no beetle form unless you study one. There are many ape forms in kung fu and silat. This would be more of a study in intent, breathing and hypnosis. But there is no kata in the body of Okinawa-te called those. If some guy would come in asking for it Gordon could definately show you something you thought was a beetle form although he might pick up a guitar and microphone.
Ron Jeremy? Uh? he's Hawaiian? Lest we forget what Jim Kelly would reply to your comments or even Joe Lewis or Bob Wall? All I can say is for the many who thought he was full of it, they either never spent more than 5 minutes with the guy or they realized the hard way that he was the most infuencial martial, albeit unknown, genius in American Martial history. Ed Parker looked up to him. So did Tetsumo Oshima. In fact only you seem to think he is full of crap. The most ripped off guy in martial history and you think it's funny to say he resembles a guy half his age? I think he would be proud. Al Thomas, David German and Sonny Gascon. I drop these names for the real martial artist do a search so they can flame you Mr. One Fist.You're joking right? That guy was a farce just like your name Hand-g-Rape. WTF is a Handgrape anyway?

Look Ippon Ken, Mr. Okinawe-Te, is a one POINT punch, meaning a one-knuckle punch or "phoenix-eye fist". Shouldn't you have learned this tech and term in a style that supposedly is inspired by Choki Motobu's teachings? Huh?! It was one of his favorite techniques you genius!

There IS Okinawan Te. It comprises the styles which came from the various villages- Shuri, Naha and Tomari. It's a generic term for the indigenous fighting arts of Okinawa. If your so-called founder really understood Okinawan karate he would have taught you this and the CORRECT history of Ti.

So all I can say is shut your trap before you put your foot so far down your throat that you decide to make up a "Ashi Kata Ichiban", you idiot. I know you've been lied to, but why not just fess up and admit you do BS Okinawan or whatever "karate" it is?

The evidence and the teachers that know real "Okinawa Te" are against you. Go to Okinawa and ask around. You'll find NO ONE who can corraborate your claims or legitimize your style. You'll find NO kata that are the forms you learn in "Okinawa Te". Who cares what a Shotokan stylist or Bob Wall says about Doversola. What Okinawan ryuha do they know?!!! Joe Lewis said this guy was legit? I can't believe it and so what if he did. Joe Lewis didn't even see the effectiveness of the Shorin Ryu he learned so he made jiyu kumite for the masses (kickboxing) after 2 years of training! I still doubt he said anything positive about this scheister.

BTW the beetle comment was a joke. Yeah you know, like your style. Genius!

Thanks Rob.

That was great.

Just a bit of history:
[I] ===Copywritten content removed by request===

Thanks Rob.

That was great.

No problemo......when is the next Tokyo Booze up by the way???
I'm thinkin' Hobgobblin or Dubliners........what do ya think?

Sounds good mate. Never been to the Knob Goblin. Dubliners sometimes bores me to tears.

BTW, I'll be leaving Japan next month, so this will be my last drink up for a few years.

Phoenix Eye.?
What are you saying he is a Southern Praying Mantis student now? That just might make sense. Motobu did seem to have a similar stance but not defense. I thought knuckle was fushi? hitostu fushi no butsu ne. I can't see knuckles as long? Maybe that is an old way of saying it. Either way One Long Fist doesn't mean phoenix eye. Handgrape is a joke based on the transliteration I'll give you points if you figure it out. Grapes are very special to martial arts of Japan. But you can't ask you have to know.
Ask Joe what he thought of Gordon and his students such as Mark Galvin. Who would regularly hand Joe his ass. True Joe was a rock compared to Mark who was more technically proficient than Joe would ever be. So Mark would choose not to fight Joe sometimes only because Joe would only do it to see how much Mark would be able to take. But there was no doubt who was the better fighter. Mark wins hands down over anyone I know even into his 60's. And Gordon was much better than Mark and Joe put together. That is why many great's give him the credit for making them great. Are you calling Jim Kelly a shotokan stylist? I am saying he trained with us to win the Hunnington (long?) Beach classic. And this was after people thought he was great. Check Black belt article "Where's Jim Kelly Now." Kelly was actually one of the best martial athletes I have heard of. Even faster than Bruce. BTW what system do you teach? I have never heard any complaints about the kata, infact I have people knocking down my door from across country to teach them kata like the Bear or Falling Leaf. Because their forms suck because they are not in the context of fighting. At least people don't look at our forms and say how boring, a pattern? It takes much longer to learn an Okinawa-te kata than any other kata. Especially when it is 275 moves on top of learning the application to each move. It was the Okinawa-te green belts that were forced to wear black belts in tournaments because the other styles were afraid of what they would do to their innocent students. We terrorized the tournaments, and you call us farse, Until the rules were change to not allow grabs and low kicks. You sir don't know your American Martial art history. How old are you? Ask anyone who has had a formal martial training in Te and compare it to any other system in the world and which comes out ahead? Would they ever trade their training for anything else? Are you afraid to admit that anyone can come up with an effective martial art with little to no training. Again, you don't know the martial art masters. Musashi, Motobu, Bruce Lee, These people had very little training and went on to be regarded as masters. Musashi said he taught himself everything without any teacher. "It is not for everyone to be without a teacher" (no, only the masters) Think about this: How many Te schools are there compared to the various Ryu branches in America alone. What about Tae Kwon do? And who came first? I rest my case. How long to get your black belt vs. how many black belts in Te. Most people can name the real black belts off the top of their head.

RR-
Again, Again, the Han invaded China. NOT OKINAWA. OKINAWA was the retreat. (I thought this was common enough)
and How is regarding Okinawa to China the same as Hawaii is to the US any different that what you said. In 1860 there was no such thing as Shuri-te, Naha-te. That is another transliteration. Check the books the "Masters" wrote, they don't say "Shuri-te" originally. If you know the real name I will be shocked but at least tell me you know that after 29 years.
Sanchin is in Many Chinese martial arts. Pangai Noon, but looks much different. Wing Chun variations also have a similar form. Have you seen Sam boa gin? Gin foon Mark

RR-
BTW about 1/2 of the people you are quoting are hacks. Everyone knows most of the lamers. Many people are trying to promote their schools history. I usually don't bother with martial histories because so many are loaded with so much undeterminable crap it's silly. You get a better understanding of just listing the facts, lived-died, was built in...moved to Shrilanka in... Visited...Married...had nine children...was attacked on...etc. You can almost trust "was a student of... or taught...but not always. For instance Funakoshi was a teacher of Te but didn't teach it in the methodolgy of Shotokan. At least not in the body of standard techniques. The forms were simplified, created, or in some cases had weapons removed (more common than not).

IPK-
Why don't you ask Tadashi Yamashita what he thinks of some of Gordon's students, like John Hanrehan or Mike Pecina?

RR -
Friends with Pat huh?
Why don't you ask him about Doversola?

RR-
BTW about 1/2 of the people you are quoting are hacks. Everyone knows most of the lamers. ..........

Really??? Which ones???

How are they lame??? I mean compared to your sources....... which are??????
Oh that' s right you haven't listed any.....

RR-
Again, Again, the Han invaded China. NOT OKINAWA. OKINAWA was the retreat. (I thought this was common enough)
and How is regarding Okinawa to China the same as Hawaii is to the US any different that what you said. In 1860 there was no such thing as Shuri-te, Naha-te. That is another transliteration. Check the books the "Masters" wrote, they don't say "Shuri-te" originally. If you know the real name I will be shocked but at least tell me you know that after 29 years.
Sanchin is in Many Chinese martial arts. Pangai Noon, but looks much different. Wing Chun variations also have a similar form. Have you seen Sam boa gin? Gin foon Mark From your previous post:




Most of this is speculation and possibly word of mouth. As with any history. Okinawa is extremely skewed. The majority of this is not from actual research but from teachers embelishments of possibly history.
Okinawa had many families but no real structure. After the Han invasions many on the island were of Northern Chinese or Southern Chinese decent. Today there is a blend of the three cultures of Mainlanders, Taiwanese, and Japanese mixed in with what is left of the original inhabitants.
From this run on sentence it is hard to gather whether you are saying some island in Okinawa was invaded or what. From your writing style it's hard to gather whether you are a native speaker of English or just someone who is un-educated. Either way make yourself clearer and there will be less confusion when discussing certain subjects.

To all posters and lurkers on this thread:

It is my opinion that “Handgrape” has only come here to cause trouble.
1) His profile is basically blank. He reminds of a guy that was booted off E-Budo when I was a Mod over there.
2) His first posts were obviously done to cause some commotion.
3) He never states his source for information even when asked.
4) He seems to like to be degrading when asked for more in depth explanations or information


He is a troll.

RR-
Again, Again, the Han invaded China. NOT OKINAWA. OKINAWA was the retreat. (I thought this was common enough).............

Uuuuhhh........the Han are Chinese. I think you actually mean the Mung (Mongolians).

“I thought this was common enough”..........I mean being an “expert” on Asian Studies as you seem to like to portray yourself you should have known something so simple.

RR - It depends on your perspective, but I thouht we were talking about Martial history. The Han invaded the Hagga who are now the oppressed. Some may use the term "inhabited" but I don't call setting fire to the temple inhabiting. The Hagga retreated into mainly Taiwan, which was somehow linked, mainly through Japanese pirates who had settled there to Okinawa and Korea. As the Mogol or Qing were ruled half by the Manchu and half by the Han leftovers the Hagga blame the current people, Han, for thier troubles and that is why Tawianese hate the mainlanders the most. First attacking the Honan temple, which is the only one left standing, and then later attacking and setting fire to the Fujian temple, the South Shaolin monastery. It is important to note that what Shaolin was trying to preserve was from the Tang dynasty. And many of China's dynasties were not Chinese. So the people who believe they have the right to China are not what we would today call Chinese people. They were killed or ousted. And the current Han poplulation although trying to fight it's racism of the Hagga is still plagued with great contempt for these people and visa versa.

RR - It depends on your perspective, but I thouht we were talking about Martial history. 1)The Han invaded the Hagga who are now the oppressed. Some may use the term "inhabited" but I don't call setting fire to the temple inhabiting. 2)The Hagga retreated into mainly Taiwan, which was somehow linked, mainly through Japanese pirates who had settled there to Okinawa and Korea. 3)As the Mogol or Qing were ruled half by the Manchu and half by the Han leftovers the Hagga blame the current people, Han, for thier troubles and that is why Tawianese hate the mainlanders the most.
.......................................


........the rest I deleted since it was not worthy of an educated comment and pure :bs1:






Uhhhh not really.



1) You are talking about the Hakka/Hagga?

2) No, they went mainly to South East Asian countries like Malaysia, they are also a good portion of the people that live on the Junks in Hong Kong’s harbor. The people that make up a good portion of Taiwan are from Fuken, the natives of Taiwan are called Ami……

3) Taiwanese don’t really hate the mainlanders; I should know I lived in Taiwan for over 3 years. Why?? Because a good portion of people in Taiwan are from the mainland, they fled from the Commies back in 47~48. Make no mistake the Taiwanese don’t care for Commies but they don’t hate the mainlanders……not all mainlanders are card carrying commies.

Where exactly do you get this screwed up information anyway? Look, not to be rude but until you can supply some sort of source for the information you are posting I am not even going to bother replying to the crap you post up here.



FESTIVALS & FOLK ARTS TAIWAN REPUBLIC OF CHINA ABORIGINES' FESTIVALS ===Copywritten content removed by request===

Who are the Hakkas?
===Copywritten content removed by request===

THE HAKKA CONTRIBUTION TO CHINA'S TRANSFORMATION (http://www.chinesejamaican.com/beci/index_files/Page995.htm)

by P. Richard Bohr

Associate Professor of History and

Director of Asian Studies College of Saint Benedict and Saint John's University Minnesota
===Copywritten content removed by request===

Speaking of teachers who made up thier lineage, Robert, why don't you show proof of your teachers honesty? Not saying he isn't any good as a martial artist but most people know of his embelishments. Pounding your fingers can't break the divine dimesions. Unless you are a midget.

Speaking of teachers who made up thier lineage, Robert, why don't you show proof of your teachers honesty? Not saying he isn't any good as a martial artist but most people know of his embelishments. Pounding your fingers can't break the divine dimesions. Unless you are a midget.

Interesting. So since you don't have any more arguments, you decide to attack the person. How unusual... :rolleyes:

I can't argue with someone who pastes other peoples ideas. If you can't think on your own it is not worth discussing. Besides that is what the foundation of the arguement was. He was the Pot calling the kettle.

Anyone can paste web articles. That doesn't make them true. Research is not only done on the web. And truth is not found in History books. Not usually. Robert seems to only argue what he can. He didn't approach everything I said. He can't defend his position on his counter BS arguments such as "nonsense". His quote from Richard Bohr for instance doesn't even address anything. We were speaking of a time 200 years ealier. The other message coroborates my statements. Or didn't he read them. To truely understand the Hagga you must be one or know one. How many Taiwanese will agree with these statements?

TimoS,

Yup! That’s what it would seem like.
However, Handgrape is not the first “deceptive troll” I have seen on these BBs. I actually grow weary of responding to people like him that 1. Don’t have the guts to put their real name in their profile. 2. Can’t support their claims or ideas with any sort of point of reference, be it from the internet or otherwise, then when asked get defense. According to his logic about posting things if I were to post something written by say Stephen Hawking on physics it wouldn’t be something worthy of his time discussing since he says: “I can't argue with someone who pastes other peoples ideas”. But ya know.......a good deal of the information on this BBs is from some other source. People read or hear something, form an opinion, then discuss it. Sometimes they need to post a reference of where or why they came to that conclusion so much the better. A lot of times the information is good and accurate.....
Handgrape seems to think he knows a thing or two about me but refuses to put up any info on himself.....he obviously just wants to play some sort of game here with me and the other members of MT........fine. I say people should ignore this kind of obvious attempt at disruption since any response will just add fuel to his little fire.
Oh and Handgrape....any time you feel like you want to talk....feel free to call that number below durning normal working hours Japan time........let's see....your on the west coast so how many hours difference is that????

Use the "Ignore" Luke.
:rofl:

From this URL: http://www.okinawate.co.nz/history.asp

History of Okinawa Te Karate

[I] ===Copywritten content removed by request===


1) Can anyone elaborate on this? I am wondering which era this website is referring to. Is it the era when the japanese invaded or before then?

2) I guess the so called “36 Families” from China and all the cultural they brought had nothing to do with it. If anyone looks at any race of people they can find various forms of organized unarmed combat.......

3) Hmmmm.....the “farmer” version....this story has been shot down so many times I can’t believe anyone still thinks there is any truth in it......however, if there is could someone please supply an ounce of evidence that the farmers had ANYTHING to do with the development of te/karate........PLEASE....

4) Unique is an “interesting” word choice to say the least.......I am wondering if anyone in Okinawa ever learned these kata.....

5) “Kihei” Motobu??? Is he supposed to be of the Motobu Ryu line of Motobu or is it someone else??

6) And we all know how realistic movie martial arts are.........

Anyone can paste web articles. That doesn't make them true. Research is not only done on the web. And truth is not found in History books. Not usually.

This may be true, but on the other hand, I don't see you giving any references to counter what is being said, so that's why it looks like you've run out of arguments and therefore attack the person.

This may be true, but on the other hand, I don't see you giving any references to counter what is being said, so that's why it looks like you've run out of arguments and therefore attack the person.
TimoS,

Time and time again I have asked Handgrape to post something.....ANYTHING that would prove or support his side of the discussion and disprove mine........and yet he posts nothing to support his ideas. No point of reference, no authors, no articles, ........nothing........I guess we are just suppose to take his word for it even though some of his claims/ideas contradict many respectable historians academic research.






Originally Posted by Handgrape
Anyone can paste web articles. That doesn't make them true. Research is not only done on the web. And truth is not found in History books. Not usually.

Time and time again I have asked Handgrape to post something.....ANYTHING that would prove or support his side of the discussion and disprove mine........and yet he posts nothing to support his ideas. No point of reference, no authors, no articles, ........nothing........I guess we are just suppose to take his word for it even though some of his claims/ideas contradict many respectable historians academic research.


Yes, I noticed this too. Kind of reminds me of one particular character on the ninjutsu forum (which I read mainly for entertainment value)

An actual post. And reference too? tell me it isn't true.
Not Taiwanese eh?
http://www.softidea.com/twhakkausa/

Jook Lum Mantis
http://www.bambootemple.com/sx090001.htm

The New Zealand guy's website is promoting a false history, for some reason (I would tell him to take it off but can't find contact info), similar to the following:
http://www.ryukyukenpo.org/Grandmaster%20Seiyu%20Oyata.htm

1. Mr. Oyata’s father was the middleweight Sumo champion of all Okinawa. When he was young, he, and the rest of the Sumo team, challenged all comers in Okinawa. Kana Oyata was the strongest man on the team and won the competition for the island. 2. Mr. Oyata was the fourth son of Kana Oyata and the youngest. His three brothers Taro, Kiseii and Akio were killed in the second World War. He, also, fought during the war and was commissioned a lieutenant in the Japanese Navy. If the Japanese forces had held back the American forces a bit longer, Mr. Oyata would have died in combat. 3. He had been trained as a suicide torpedo operator. 4. As luck would have it, he was captured and interred, in the Philippines, by the US Marines; just before he was due to embark on his mission. His death certificate had already been sent to his family. 5. As a part of his training in the Navy, he learned Japanese martial arts. These included; Judo, kendo, naginata, yari, and Iaido.
*** 6. After the war, at age 17, Mr. Oyata began working delivering food and supplies to war refugees. His work took him to the port town of Teruma where he met a very large man wearing the old “Bushi” top knot hair style. 7. He was Mr. Uhugushuku, a former Bushi, who had been in the service of the Okinawan Emperor. 8. Uhugushuku no Tanmei was about 93 years old at the time of their meeting. Because of Mr. Oyata’s “Royal” connection, through his ancestry, Master Uhugushuku allowed him to study with him.
*** 9. The Uhugushuku family has a long history of service to the Okinawan Emperors. The most famous was Kenyu “Uni” Uhugushuku. The Uhugushuku family is famous for their karate and kobujutsu techniques. Though, the 6’ bo and 4’ jo were the family’s specialty, they had intimate knowledge and great skill with all of the weapons; and, empty hand techniques. 10. Mr. Oyata became Mr. Uhugushuku’s personal student and trained with him daily. He considered Mr. Oyata a family member, calling him “Mago” (which is Okinawan for grandson) and taught him not as a regular student; but, as a family member.
11.*** Mr. Uhugushuku expressed the importance of kata training as a way to learn and practice tuite and kyusho technique. He gave Mr. Oyata problems and ideas to discover hidden meanings in the kata.
*** Because of his ability, Mr. Oyata was introduced to a friend of Mr. Uhugushuku’s, Wakinaguri no Tanmei. Mr. Wakinaguri specialized in striking techniques called kyusho jutsu. 12. When Mr. Oyata met him, he noticed that all the fingers on Mr. Wakinaguri’s hands were the same length. This was due to training, since the age of four, by thrusting his fingers into pumice sand. Mr. Wakinaguri taught how to discover the body’s weak points and vital areas as well as how to strike them.

1. What year? http://seinenkai.com/art-sumo.html
2. Even Japan had "sole surviving heir" laws in the military.
sounds like Saving Private Ryan or the ealier B&W version "7 fighting Foy's" (?)
3. kaiten operator? There were only a few since the inventor only made a few He would most likely know him. "Lieutenant Sekio Nishina"
4. "Or rather to make the story sound good"
5. Or "He got to touch these weapons for a day" I don't think the Navy trained hand to hand combat. In fact if they did it would have only been for the short time in training less than a few months. Just like the Air Force doesn't teach hand to hand. Only Forces who will meet in possible hand to hand. Iaido? you got to be kidding me.
6. 17? and an officer no less. for a country that hasn't been eating cow very long this guy is full of Bull already.
7. Why are all the stories the same. 2 guys that no one can verify existed taught me this special martial art. Of course no pictures exist of any of the teachers...What do you expect I lived in Nagasaki...boom.
8. 18 year old kid learns from a 93 year old and good lessons he learned. Don't fall or you break your hip.
9. However there no record of the name. It is still true. I promise.
10. Or "for the few days left that he was alive."
What this boils down too is this: You knock my teacher because he admitted he lied. But you support yours because he never admitted it. Who has more honor? "See your going to learn two things from this. One- don't do that. And two- you just dropped $100,000 on an education you could have spent $1.50 in late charges at the library."
11. Not that I am anti kata but this statement is also thrown around by people that don't know how to fight. They can't teach their students "in context" so they say "learn the secrets of the kata" (Talk to the drum, don't ask me.)
12. Both hands? Impossible. Either he was a midget, had really bad arthritis or he was fooled or this is a load of crap. You can't compress bones like that. Unless he never stopped (never) and he broke them, they can't break the divine ratio. He was probably bending his knuckles in a visual trick...But they again we still have no proof of his existence either.
However: there is one solution. The way it is worded I fall into that category: Both my hands are the same length too.

In the long run it doesn't matter who has the more reputible story. What matters is who is the hack martial artist and who is the real deal. See, I don't diss your style. I know nothing about it. And you know nothing about mine. So therefore you are an ass of u and me is out of here. You want to talk technical, fine. But don't discount the art simply because it was made up yesterday, (and yours the day before). Are you saying Bruce Lee is full of crap because he only trained 2 years with Man?

We can settle this though: how many great fighters recomend your style and how many recommend mine? Case closed. No one has ever heard of a Ryu Te Champion. But everyone knows Joe Lewis, Jim Kelly, Bob Wall. How bout that, those guys didn't even get advanced ranks in Te and they credit Gordon as the "Greatest teacher/fighter".

So unless you are going to compare principles I would keep you assumptions for the immature. I would gladly show you why I know my style is better than any other that I have seen. (as of yet) I will leave room for yours just in case. There are a lot of great aspects to many styles and systems but only one great system that I have found.

I believe I saw your teacher on the Discovery Channel. His advanced students we talking about the "secret technique"? not sure though. Do you wear hakama, and do some osae style waza?

For the Record The New Zealand website is not lead by a student of Gordon's. John is a 3rd or more generation student so he may not no any better. I can't say for sure. For instance they say they teach traditional Okinawa-te but you see a picture of a kid in a black gi and a yellow belt. Traditional Te didn't have a yellow belt and a black gi was something you tested for.

Forgot a name in the list. "Ted Tabura" got a green or brown belt I think?

Ahhhhh the deceptive troll returns.

2. Even Japan had "sole surviving heir" laws in the military. sounds like Saving Private Ryan or the ealier B&W version "7 fighting Foy's" (?)


Oh really? having any documentation on that……and if you do how strictly was it enforced at the end of World War 2???

5. Or "He got to touch these weapons for a day" I don't think the Navy trained hand to hand combat. In fact if they did it would have only been for the short time in training less than a few months. Just like the Air Force doesn't teach hand to hand. Only Forces who will meet in possible hand to hand. Iaido? you got to be kidding me.

You don’t think or you don’t know? I think it’s more like you never served in the Japanese Navy and therefore have no idea what you are talking about. However, several martial arts were taught in the Japanese military, sword being one of them.


7. Why are all the stories the same. 2 guys that no one can verify existed taught me this special martial art. Of course no pictures exist of any of the teachers...What do you expect I lived in Nagasaki...boom.

Uehara Seikichi knew them, and there are photos of the two men in question at Mr. Oyata’s house. Come to think of it……I have never seen anything but a drawing of Itosu Anko, and Azato Yasatune……in fact not many people ever trained under Azato……I wonder if they ever really existed.


9. However there no record of the name. It is still true. I promise.

http://www.koza.ne.jp/bunkazai/shiseki/page/unuufugushiku.html (http://www.koza.ne.jp/bunkazai/shiseki/page/unuufugushiku.html)

I guess this link to the Uni Uhugushuku Family Grave makes you look really stpid then doesn’t it………….

10. Or "for the few days left that he was alive."
What this boils down too is this: You knock my teacher because he admitted he lied. But you support yours because he never admitted it. Who has more honor? "See your going to learn two things from this. One- don't do that. And two- you just dropped $100,000 on an education you could have spent $1.50 in late charges at the library."

Both teachers died in the early 1950’s

Bold type:

I saw the movie Good Will Hunting too……..I mean that is where you stole that cheezy line isn’t it……

As for your teacher…….who might that be? In true cowardly fashion you have neither posted his name or yours.

We can settle this though: how many great fighters recomend your style and how many recommend mine? Case closed. No one has ever heard of a Ryu Te Champion. But everyone knows Joe Lewis, Jim Kelly, Bob Wall. How bout that, those guys didn't even get advanced ranks in Te and they credit Gordon as the "Greatest teacher/fighter".

Again you are made to look stupid by your own comments and lack of knowledge:

http://www.usjujitsu.net/bio/boggs/ (http://www.usjujitsu.net/bio/boggs/)

Boggs began his karate training in the mid-60s on Okinawa under the very famous Grandmaster Taika Seiyu Oyata. Master Joe Lewis, former undefeated World Heavyweight Kickboxing Champion Three times Grand Champion and Boggs' good friend, trained at the same Kenpukan Dojo at this time.

After training several years on Okinawa, Boggs also tested under the late Grandmaster Shigeru Nakamura, Founder of Okinawan Kempo. Returning to the USA, Boggs trained several more years under Oyata who had followed Bob to Kansas. After Shihan Oyata, Boggs trained under world famous Jim Harrison, founder of Bushidokan and Sakura Warrior Arts Systems, and continues to do so today.



For information on Mr. Oyata here is a website run by his senior student.
http://www.kushu.com/

An actual post. And reference too? tell me it isn't true.
Not Taiwanese eh?
http://www.softidea.com/twhakkausa/
Never said there weren't any Hakka people in Taiwan I said they were not listed as the "native people" of Taiwan. Taiwan has almost every variation of Chinese you can imagine.
You see Handgrape, this is why having any sort of discussion with you is like talking to a child. You don't read other peoples posts well and fail to research anything you are discussing with an ounce degree of accuracy. It truly is like talking to a child and I have to admit you have become too tedious to have a discussion with on any level. You are just not worth the effort........

===Copywritten content removed by request===

Ahhhhh the Frog in the well answers back.



Oh really? having any documentation on that……and if you do how strictly was it enforced at the end of World War 2???

Tokubetsu Kogeki-tai?
How about dates and times? He was a 17 year old in the Navy. Possible.
But a 17 year old kid graduating from the Japanese Naval Staff College is ridiculous especially in war time. More likely he would have either joined at 13 and gone to war college? I don't buy it. Besides the few people who were Suicide torpedo bombers? How does he explain being promoted 3 grades by the time he was 17?
Honestly I wouldn't I know about the enforcement of "Sole Survivor" law in Japanese Military. Is that how you settle everything. I thought I was born in Missouri. You gotta admit the burden of proof lies in his court. I know our military takes it very serious.


You don’t think or you don’t know? I think it’s more like you never served in the Japanese Navy and therefore have no idea what you are talking about. However, several martial arts were taught in the Japanese military, sword being one of them.


In the Navy? I know even the Marines use swords in color guard but do they train them in sword fighting. No. In Japan it is possible however what would be the point?



http://www.koza.ne.jp/bunkazai/shiseki/page/unuufugushiku.html

I guess this link to the Uni Uhugushuku Family Grave makes you look really stpid then doesn’t it………

"stpid'' and lieyar is what you look like now. If anyone goes to this link they will be shocked to find that the grave marks people who ahve died in 1458
"Koyuu" and a "little devil" What are you trying to do here Robert. Prove you don't know Japanese? Are you saying that he built the graves when he was a kid? OniDaijo "Gusuku" Besides your grave is here:
http://koza.ne.jp/bunkazai/shiseki/page/houanden.html

I saw the movie Good Will Hunting too……..I mean that is where you stole that cheezy line isn’t it……

Yea. Matt Damon...Didn't think you needed the name...sorry to throw you with such a famous quote I will be more careful to assist you since you have been lied to all your life.

As for your teacher…….who might that be? In true cowardly fashion you have neither posted his name or yours.

You obviously have a mental disorder. We have been talking about my teacher the whole time. If you can't remember his name that shows how Obaka you really are. Me, I am the guy who handed you your ass.

Bob Boggs (http://www.usjujitsu.net/bio/boggs/)
Boggs began his karate training in the mid-60s on Okinawa under the very famous Grandmaster Taika Seiyu Oyata. Master Joe Lewis, former undefeated World Heavyweight Kickboxing Champion Three times Grand Champion and Boggs' good friend, trained at the same Kenpukan Dojo at this time.

You didn't just suggest that Bob Boggs is a great fighter did you? Are you saying that Joe recommends this folly. I got it on tape that Joe was saying that his teacher in Okinawa was lame. That is why he ended up at my teachers door. He knew Gordon wouldn't promote him without learning everything so he left but not before knowing who was the better fighter. Ask him. Joe can travel the world over to train with masters and how many times did he return?

For information on Mr. Oyata here is a website run by his senior student.
http://www.kushu.com/

Wow...That was good for me to know. Yep now I remember your teacher I saw with Jim Louge. Another really "bright" guy. Robert your teacher is the quintessential "BS" artist. Sorry to say. Regardless of history, this guy is full of garbage. He may have a good technique or two, learned or made up but he is basically stealing from many people and making up some BS about his family history. It is the most common of Japanese problems. "Being full of shitake." I have L.A. times proof of that epidemic.
LA Times Thurs. Nov 9, 2000 - "Japan Amazed as Archeologist's Magic Exposed as Sleight of Hand" Culturally speaking you are in the land of the biggest pile of BS.
Now I know why you asnwer as you do: as a Frog in the Well.

Also...your question earlier. No one in Okinawa has ever learned the Okinawa-te kata as far as I know. They are too long and difficult for them. They like their 40 move short forms. Tadashi Yamashita may have learned some of them however.

Do you like Apples? - Same movie
I'm through with this guy. - Joe Peci
-- pong

I noticed you didn't answer any of my questions from the older post Either you don't read them. Or can't answer them. As I am tired of playing this stupid game I will leave you to your forum. But the next time one of my students tells me your talking trash I will have you booted off this forum.
No reply.

"laugh, it's funny I have the money to have you killed by somebody who has nothing." MM

Tokubetsu Kogeki-tai?
How about dates and times? He was a 17 year old in the Navy. Possible.
But a 17 year old kid graduating from the Japanese Naval Staff College is ridiculous especially in war time. More likely he would have either joined at 13 and gone to war college? I don't buy it. Besides the few people who were Suicide torpedo bombers? How does he explain being promoted 3 grades by the time he was 17?
Honestly I wouldn't I know about the enforcement of "Sole Survivor" law in Japanese Military. Is that how you settle everything. I thought I was born in Missouri. You gotta admit the burden of proof lies in his court. I know our military takes it very serious.
Here’s an idea....since you are on the west coast and he often goes there why don’t you ask him in person.


"stpid'' and lieyar is what you look like now. If anyone goes to this link they will be shocked to find that the grave marks people who ahve died in 1458
"Koyuu" and a "little devil" What are you trying to do here Robert. Prove you don't know Japanese? Are you saying that he built the graves when he was a kid? OniDaijo "Gusuku" Besides your grave is here:
http://koza.ne.jp/bunkazai/shiseki/page/houanden.html
My grave?? I wasn’t aware I was dead.
As usual you have not understood what was written in front of you.....Uni Uhugushuku was an ancestor to one of Mr. Oyata’s teachers.....that teacher is buried in the family grave as is customary.



You obviously have a mental disorder. We have been talking about my teacher the whole time. If you can't remember his name that shows how Obaka you really are. Me, I am the guy who handed you your ass.
Handed me my ass??? I don’t think so.
Still too much of a coward to post your name I see.


It is the most common of Japanese problems.
"Being full of shitake." I have L.A. times proof of that epidemic.
LA Times Thurs. Nov 9, 2000 - "Japan Amazed as Archeologist's Magic Exposed as Sleight of Hand" Culturally speaking you are in the land of the biggest pile of BS.
Now I know why you asnwer as you do: as a Frog in the Well.


You are of course referring to an incident where a Japanese archeologist “planted” some remains at a dig and got busted for it and now is ruined in Japanese Academia.
Not sure what the wrongful doing of a Japanese archeologist has to do with anything on this thread.



Also...your question earlier. No one in Okinawa has ever learned the Okinawa-te kata as far as I know. They are too long and difficult for them. They like their 40 move short forms. Tadashi Yamashita may have learned some of them however.

Hell you didn’t have to tell anyone that.....most people already knew it. “Too long and difficult” yeah right........

........... As I am tired of playing this stupid game I will leave you to your forum. 1)But the next time one of my students tells me your talking trash I will have you booted off this forum.
No reply.

2)"laugh, it's funny I have the money to have you killed by somebody who has nothing." MM 1) :roflmao:

2) is that a threat??? sure sounds like it.

I got it on tape that Joe was saying that his teacher in Okinawa was lame. That is why he ended up at my teachers door. He knew Gordon wouldn't promote him without learning everything so he left but not before knowing who was the better fighter. Ask him. Joe can travel the world over to train with masters and how many times did he return?


From Joe Lewis:
Kinjo Chinsaku gave me my first black belt promotion. He spoke only two words of English, but he was able to bring out the greatness in me. He had deep appreciation for my talents in spite of the language barrier. I remember his essence. I call it class. He gave me my class as a fighter.

My first instructor was Eizo Shimabuku. He taught me tradition. He gave me my background, my history, and my heritage in the martial arts. He also provided me with the best crop of black belts on the planet for learning. He taught me how to fight and to always put my best foot forward, never to miss a workout; always come to class first and always leave last, and to respect my seniors. He also promoted me to black belt.

Seiyu Oyata was my third karate teacher. Oyata taught me how to be sneaky, to ambush, to never trust what the eye sees. He taught me instincts and how to be mean. He was big for an Okinawan, and he loved fighting. He added a toughness to my spirit.

My next karate instructor, Gordon Doversola, taught me style. I love the Chinese style of his system, Okiwana-Te. He taught me smoothness, circular movement, camaraderie, Chinese weaponry, and how to appreciate Asian foods.




Yeah Joe seemed to make a lot of "lame" comments about his teachers in Okinawa....

:roflmao:and your teacher taught him how to order from a menu :rofl:

Though I'm officially "on sabbatical" from the forums these days, I felt compelled to respond to Handgrape's obvious civilian-born assumptions...

How does he explain being promoted 3 grades by the time he was 17?

Audie Murphy went from Private to Staff Sergeant to 2nd Lieutenant in 3 years, which would result in a total of between 6 and 11 grades of rank depending on how you counted them... Granted, Murphy was a unique case, but the point remains that stranger things have happened...

Honestly I wouldn't I know about the enforcement of "Sole Survivor" law in Japanese Military... I know our military takes it very serious.

Actually, while the US Army (the only service I can speak about authoritatively) takes all situations soldiers have seriously, it must be understood that the Sole Surviving Son/Daughter exclusion is very narrow in scope and applies to only a very small number of soldiers.

Taken from AR 635-200, Enlisted Separations:

5-4. General

a. Commanders specified in paragraph 1-19 will approve requests for separation for the convenience of the Government of soldiers who qualify per this section as surviving sons or daughters.

b. Separation under this section is not authorized —

(1) During a period of war or national emergency declared by the Congress.

(2) When a soldier who qualified per this section has waived status as surviving son or daughter.

(a) A soldier who has waived such status may request reinstatement of that status; however, reinstatement will not necessarily provide a basis for separation under this section. Each case will be considered on its individual merits.

(b) A soldier who has been advised of this section and who enlists, re-enlists, or otherwise voluntarily extends his/her active duty period after the date of notification of the family casualty on which the surviving status is based, will be considered to have automatically waived his/her rights for separation under this section.

(3) When a soldier —

(a) Has court-martial charges pending.

(b) Has been tried and convicted by court-martial, and the case is being reviewed or appealed.

(c) Is serving a sentence (or otherwise undergoing punishment) imposed by court-martial.

(d) Is being processed for involuntary administrative separation for cause.

5-5. Definitions
The following definitions apply to terms used in this section:

a. The "surviving son" or "surviving daughter" is any son or daughter in a family whose parent or one or more sons or daughters served in the Armed Forces of the United States and —

(1) Was killed in action.

(2) Died as a result of wounds, accident, or disease while serving in the U.S. Armed Forces.

(3) Is in a captured or missing-in-action status.

(4) Is permanently 100 percent physically disabled or 100 percent mentally disabled due to service connection, as determined by the Department of Veterans' Affairs or one of the military services, and is not gainfully employed because of such disability.

b. "Armed Forces of the United States" denotes collectively all components of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard.

Does that explain things plainly enough for you? Research before speaking, always a good plan...

In the Navy? I know even the Marines use swords in color guard but do they train them in sword fighting. No. In Japan it is possible however what would be the point?

Well, since from my own first hand experience watching the JGSDF conduct bayonet fighting practice, naginata, sword and short sword (either together or singly), etc., it would seem that those practices are still part and parcel of Japanese military training. Of course, you were referencing the Navy, but I suspect what is trained possesses (or possessed) a fairly common thread during WWII.

Enjoy.

:asian:

Gentlemen,
Enough sniping.

Gentlemen,
Enough sniping.

:deadhorse:snipe: sorry.........couldn't resist.........

Well, since from my own first hand experience watching the JGSDF conduct bayonet fighting practice, naginata, sword and short sword (either together or singly), etc., it would seem that those practices are still part and parcel of Japanese military training. Of course, you were referencing the Navy, but I suspect what is trained possesses (or possessed) a fairly common thread during WWII.

Enjoy.

:asian:
Matt,

Japanese Military Officers were either issued or possed their own katana. The issued katana were what is known as "gunto" (I think, I will check) cheap blades that were massed produced.......since they were expected to carry a sword then it would make sense they were taught how to use it........no?
Mr. Oyata learned sword from an Okinawan....possible outside his military training...( I will ask him next week when I see him).....I think it might be safe to say that he learned several arts while in the military but not all of it was in the form of "military" training.

Japanese Military Officers were either issued or possed their own katana. The issued katana were what is known as "gunto" (I think, I will check) cheap blades that were massed produced.......since they were expected to carry a sword then it would make sense they were taught how to use it........no?

One would think so... Gunto are, as far as I am aware, the preferred objects to obtain for sword students as they are relatively easy to obtain, far cheaper than a "proper" sword (gunto run around $400 US in Japan), and are still shinken...

Mr. Oyata learned sword from an Okinawan....possible outside his military training...( I will ask him next week when I see him).....I think it might be safe to say that he learned several arts while in the military but not all of it was in the form of "military" training.

This could be similar to the kung fu I teach some soldiers... They learn it while they are in the military, but they learn it outside the scope of their daily training/duties.

Whatever. Mr. Oyata is legitimate in the books of every person I've ever run across, and only on the internet from people with shady histories have I ever found anyone that questioned his legitimacy.

See you around the net... Back to lurking...

:asian:

In order to track down who "Handgrape" actually is and his relationship to Okinawa Te I made an inguiry by calling Dr. Khoury listed on this URL http://www.okinawate.com/
Dr. Khoury informed that "Handgrape" was actually about 30 something, overweight and lving in Southern Cal. and was not associated with either group of Okinawa Te, and was sort of a shodan but not from either group. (Evidently there has been a split in the Okinawa Te Assoc.) Dr. Khoury said the Okinawa Te split was caused by a lack of supporting evidence to the claims of the founder of Okinawa Te a Mr. Gordon Doversola in regards to an Okinawan connection. (interesting) He added that they could not find any connection to Okinawa, nor could they find any of the teachers mentioned by Mr. Gordon Doversola. Dr. Khoury also added that "Handgrape" actually started his "own style" (groan) and would only occasionaly show up for Okinawa Te events. Dr. Khoury said he did not approve of "Handgrape" making any sort of connection to their assoc. or dojo on these boards since "Handgrape" was not a member and did not reflect thier opinions and disaproved of some of the comment made by "Handgrape". He also mentioned that Joe Lewis was kicked out of the Okinawa Te Assoc.....he didn't say what for.
After talking to Dr. Khoury for about 20+ minutes at my own expense from Tokyo I got the feeling that he was a sincere martial artist and enjoys what he teaches. We exchanged some personal info and I may visit him in the future if I get to the Bay area of SF.

So Mr. "Handgrape" or should I use your real name???? C.K. isn't it??? I do not like your off handed "death threat" in your last post.......in fact I am seriously considering conacting a legal office about this. I have sent you an email so you have my email address........so you might want to cough up an apology.

...Dr. Khoury informed that "Handgrape" was actually about 30 something, overweight and lving in Southern Cal. and was not associated with either group of Okinawa Te, and was sort of a shodan but not from either group. (Evidently there has been a split in the Okinawa Te Assoc.) Dr. Khoury said the Okinawa Te split was caused by a lack of supporting evidence to the claims of the founder of Okinawa Te a Mr. Gordon Doversola in regards to an Okinawan connection. (interesting) He added that they could not find any connection to Okinawa, nor could they find any of the teachers mentioned by Mr. Gordon Doversola. Dr. Khoury also added that "Handgrape" actually started his "own style" (groan) Echoedand would only occasionaly show up for Okinawa Te events.He also mentioned that Joe Lewis was kicked out of the Okinawa Te Assoc.....he didn't say what for.Don't care what 'Handgrape' does or doesn't do. Not much of a concern of mine.

But, just to keep the ducks lined up in a row, Dr Khoury is associated with a group whose 'leader' was kicked out of the Okinawa Te Association. The historical claims have always been 'suspect'. Gordon's advanced students never cared much because the information imparted was always effective. Historical claims aside, Dr. Khoury's group continues to teach the core of Okinawa Te Association techniques. Kinda like being pissed when you find out there's no Santa Claus... but you still keep all the presents! This new groups leader is now referred to as 'Master'...I think you get the message. In Dr Khoury's defense, I have had limited interaction with him, but he seems to be an honorable individual.

As to Joe Lewis, he was not kicked out of the Okinawa Te Association. He left to open a school with Bob Wall on Ventura Blvd (Sherman Oaks, CA). Later turned the school over (sold) to Chuck Norris complete with Bob Wall. I was there ('Handgrape' (CK) wasn't) when he took his last lesson from Gordon Doversola. Joe was hungry for footwork and was impatient to learn it. Had Gordon Doversola shown Joe the footwork he taught Jim Kelly history would have been different. For a short while at least.

After talking to Dr. Khoury for about 20+ minutes at my own expense from Tokyo I got the feeling that he was a sincere martial artist and enjoys what he teaches. We exchanged some personal info and I may visit him in the future if I get to the Bay area of SF.Probably a worthwhile endeavor. Like I said I think he is an honorable man.

My response is only to keep some of the facts (best as I can remember them) straight and not intended to fuel or further the sniping... there's enough of that without adding more.

Mark Galvin

Gordon Doversola, the system founder is one. Mike Pecina is another. A ways back, a guy named Hanrahan broke off and formed a system called Wa-te Ryu, which is just Okinawa-te with a different name, really. The curriculum is just a wee bit different, and he's given Japanese names to the kata. Also, he's instituted dan rankings, which Okinawa-te does not have. Still, the essentials are basically Okinawa-te. I don't know of anyone else trying to get power in the organization, nor do I particularly care. When things get too political, I tend to shy away. Not my bag.

Cthulhu
Hi Cthulhu. I was referred to this site by a friend, and imagine my surprise to see my name in print regarding political power struggles and B.S. in Okinawa-Te. To set the record straight, I left Master Doversola's organization in 1981 in order to preserve the integrity of my dojo, protect my students from being taken advantage of financially, and to get away from what was beginning to happen to Okinawa-Te. I did not ever attempt to abuse my relationship with Master Doversola or make any claim or attempt to gain power in his association. Also, I did not start my own system, I created my own association, approximately 6 years after leaving Okinawa-Te, and did not change any of what I had been taught. It's interesting to me that, over the years, so much has been flaunted about regarding the reasons why I left Okinawa-Te. But, now that I've seen it in print, I thought it time to speak out about it. My association, Wa-Te Ryu, is not just based on the principles of Okinawa-Te, it IS the principles of Okinawa-Te, as taught to me by Master Doversola while I was his personal student for 12 years, and also as taught to me during that same period by my Seniors, Larry DeLano, Mark Galvin, Geoff Ewertz and Mike Lee, all wonderful teachers in their own right. I did not involve any of them in my departure from Okinawa-Te. What happened was between me and Master Doversola, and shall remain so. When I left his organization (and I was not the first to leave) I felt it would be improper for me to use his name or the name of his system. Certain people have come to me over the years and have asked me to return and help fix the problems that remain. My response has always been that the system of Okinawa-Te (named by Master Doversola) is his system and only he has the right to change or alter things as they are. A question arose as to the development of degrees after leaving his organization. The truth is that Master Doversola referred to himself as a 9th degree black belt as early as 1969 (and perhaps earlier), and that he promoted students to black belt level with degree designations. He was and is the Master of his system (yes, his, he created it). and if you have any further questions you should talk to him about it. We began the process of giving the Katas Japanese names prior to my leaving, and I continued the practice afterward. You should know that the names were not changed, they were just interpreted in Japanese. It would be the same as saying eat in English, essen in German, or manga in Italian. To eat is to eat in any language. When I left there were no "contenders" for the throne, just some unhappy members. If there are any "contenders" now, please know that I am not, nor have I ever been one. My name is John Hanrahan. If you have any questions, please let me know.