To Cdhall...

[DireWolf]

This Christianity business is confusing. I'm hoping to make it to Black Belt and then meditate on whether I want to teach or continue after that.

Hi Cdhall! I too am a Christian and I think that Jesus is about the only thing I love more than my wife or Martial Arts. Just a question: Why would you not want to continue after black belt level? Most ma's will be only too happy to tell you that BB is where it begins, not where it ends. Not teaching I understand (not everyone is a teacher, regardless of rank) but is there a spiritual reason for this?

Thanks!

:yinyang:
DW

[Damian Mavis]

I'm not a Christian but that's a very good point. Black belt is only the beginning, that's when you really start to learn. Quitting then is kind of silly.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Shinzu]

MA is a life long commitment. to give up on it would be like not breathing. it is, and always should be part of who you are.

your training truly begins after black belt.

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by DireWolf

Hi Cdhall! I too am a Christian and I think that Jesus is about the only thing I love more than my wife or Martial Arts. Just a question: Why would you not want to continue after black belt level? Most ma's will be only too happy to tell you that BB is where it begins, not where it ends. Not teaching I understand (not everyone is a teacher, regardless of rank) but is there a spiritual reason for this?

Thanks!

:yinyang:
DW

I am curious as well, I consider myself a Christian, most traditional Christians wouldn't consider me that, but I do....anyway, I think teaching is a great way to help people as well. Just my few cents on it.


7sm

[cdhall]

Originally posted by DireWolf

Hi Cdhall! I too am a Christian and I think that Jesus is about the only thing I love more than my wife or Martial Arts. Just a question: Why would you not want to continue after black belt level? Most ma's will be only too happy to tell you that BB is where it begins, not where it ends. Not teaching I understand (not everyone is a teacher, regardless of rank) but is there a spiritual reason for this?

Thanks!

:yinyang:
DW

Thanks everyone who has posted before me. My dilemma is whether the whole "turn the other cheek" thing means "don't retaliate against an attack."
A) If so, then maybe I should not be doing this at all and I should quit, but I am going to persist until Black Belt before I "quit."

B) If not, then it is OK for me to continue as before because I really kind of like Kenpo and President Truman's policy of Massive Retaliation (I hope I got that right) and I can continue as before.

That is really it. I agree with you that learning accelerates at Black Belt, and that this really marks the beginning of another journey, it may be like High School in that you have to go through grades 1-8 to get there, but it is grades 9-12 that are the payoff.

I have had such a dramatic change in my life that I have to be sure I don't just "overlook" this aspect of my life and I feel obligate to figure this one out. On the Spiderman Post (55617) nightingale8472 claimed:


The phrase "Turn the other cheek" has to be taken in historical context. At that time period, in that society, slapping someone across the face was an insult, equivalent to spitting on someone or giving them "the finger" today. In light of this context, "turn the other cheek" could be interpreted as a directive to ignore petty insults and not make mountains out of molehills. That passage in the bible doesn't address the concept of self-defense at all.

and linked to
http://www.gac.20m.com/self-def.htm

I hope this all checks out like she says, it is basically what I had thought before. I think it lends credibility to the "Peace through Strength" philosophy which I also like.

I have looked at this site just now and I agree with nightingale8472 and I'm optimistic that it will turn out that I can continue to pursue my Martial Arts goals. However, I will look into this further and I must also say that I am very pleased and encouraged by everyone who has posted here today.

Now that you all have gotten me started ;) I may even have a story if you want to hear it. It just happened Saturday but I'll hesitate before I post about it.

Thanks again to each of you. Your compassion for my dilemma is meaningful to me.

:asian:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by cdhall

Now that you all have gotten me started ;) I may even have a story if you want to hear it. It just happened Saturday but I'll hesitate before I post about it.

Awww, c'mon, post about it! :)

[7starmantis]

I have to tell you cdhall, I was raised in a very legalistic religious home. Martial arts were out of the questions for quite a while. I started MA when I was 7 years old, but then got pulled out because of basically the same argument presented here today. So understand that many people have struggled with the same thing you are now. It comes down to a personal decision, but let me just share mine with you.
After being involved in MA for quite a while just out of spite for my father, I was hit with the argument again, by a very good friend in the MA community with me. It took me quite a while to come to my decision. Gorwing up I had to memorize entire books of the bible in english, greek and hebrew, respectivly. So I went back to the translations to study and find my answer. What I found is actually so simple its insulting. What I found was that to not defend yourself or your family is not only not right, but it is wrong. Jesus asked Peter three times if he loved him, do you remember that? Peter answered yes all three times. Do you remember Jesus' response? "Feed my sheep". If you take that in its historical context, sheep are totaly helpless. When a wolf or something came into the shepherds flock, he protected the sheep with his bare hands. He didn't stop to give God a chance to save them, he protected them with Gods protection on him. Its that analogy that as a Christian you must use, I believe. God gave us a mind, and a body to use, lets use it. A God given talent for MA is still a talent given by God and He expects you to use it to its fullest. Ok, enough of my soapbox!! :soapbox:


Originally posted by cdhall

Thanks everyone who has posted before me. My dilemma is whether the whole "turn the other cheek" thing means "don't retaliate against an attack."
A) If so, then maybe I should not be doing this at all and I should quit, but I am going to persist until Black Belt before I "quit."

I don't mean to sound harsh or rude, but ask yourslef this, if you truly believed it was wrong to be involved in MA, would you continue to Blackbelt to quit? Just a question only you can answer though.
I hope this has helped you just a little in your search.

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Kirk

Awww, c'mon, post about it! :)

All right, all right.

Since I became a Christian last year I am doing pretty good at listening to "that little voice" and getting impressive results.

I am also looking for little meanings in stuff and trying to get lessons from them. The guy who actually was the "last link in my chain" says this is wrong, but I have some good evidence to dispute him. He thinks I'm flirting with "magic." It is a shame we don't get along better.

Anyway, on Sat I was thinking as I was driving to camp at 90mph (only sometimes :)) "why am I going to camp a day late?" This is truly inconceivable (as Vicini would say). I could not imagine why I would go to camp late. I would much rather not show up and then deal with it later, but I felt I could not do this and that I must get to camp.

Then halfway there I realized I forgot "The Journey" at home and now I'm late AND I can't get Mr. Trejo to sign my book!!! I'm mad now!

I'm thinking, God has a reason for "sending" me to camp. If I had it my way, I'd turn around now and go home, but something was compelling me to just go and get there and deal with the consequences.

So I get to camp just after lunch and fall into class right away.

About 3 hours later I am pulled from class to go test for 2nd Brown with a group of guys going for 3rd Brown.

Mr. Trejo, Mr. White and Mr. Duffy did the honors of testing us. The other guys knew they were testing this weekend. I actually had confirmed on Tues that I was not going to be testing at camp.

Oh well.

So I tested for 2nd and I passed. I'm a 2nd Brown now. It is now my goal to test for Black next year at camp and I expect Kirk to be there!

How's that for a miracle? I classify this stuff as Miracles which is another long story in itself, but I mean the only reason I am a 2nd now is because I felt compelled to go to camp, out of shape, out of character and unprepared, ie. no flashlight, no bathtowel....

Amazing. Praise the Lord!

:asian:

[cdhall]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

...What I found was that to not defend yourself or your family is not only not right, but it is wrong...God gave us a mind, and a body to use, lets use it. A God given talent for MA is still a talent given by God and He expects you to use it to its fullest. Ok, enough of my soapbox!! :soapbox:

I am more and more rapidly coming to this conclusion.



I don't mean to sound harsh or rude, but ask yourslef this, if you truly believed it was wrong to be involved in MA, would you continue to Blackbelt to quit? Just a question only you can answer though.
I hope this has helped you just a little in your search.

Excellent point. I would continue to Black Belt at this point out of stubborness, I can always ask forgiveness even if I'm wrong, right? So that was how that was going to happen. I thought I'd bring that up since it was a very good point. I suspected it was "wrong" but I had so much invested I was going to do it anyway. It really is about the last thing I have to "give up" I've just about given up everything else and waited to see if it was correct or not and the surprises have been amazing. But this was something I dared not entrust fully to the Lord because I was afraid he would not give it back.

I think though, that I have worked through it. As a youth, I was noticeably talented in performing and teaching this stuff and I have wondered why God might give me such a talent in the first place. I have wondered what else it should have been channeled toward. And that friend of mine who I mentioned earlier, he was also the Best Man at my Wedding this year, says that God will help me achieve my true desire if I will not get in His way. And so far the thing I get the most fun, satisfaction, health benefit, etc from is Kenpo and that was also bothering me.

But I think I can proceed at full steam now although I need to get all this straight so I can "defend" this position if I have to.

Mantis, et al, I never took anything as rude. Harsh is OK anyway in some cases, but I am very grateful for all of your participation in this thread and I'm very grateful to Direwolf for starting it.

I hope I answered everything OK and that you know this has been very fruitful for me.

I am also glad that this is where the news of my promotion was posted and that this is also the post that made me a Martial Talk Purple Belt!!! :karate:

:asian:

[7starmantis]

Congrats on two promotions!! Brown2nd, and "purple" :D

I'm glad you understood what I was trying to say in my post and didn't take it rude. I hope it has helped a bit. Good luck in all you do, and especially in your Christian life.


7sm

[cdhall]

Thank you.
Yes, I appreciate everything on this whole thread.
God bless you all.
:asian:

[Shinzu]

congrats on the promotion :) i hope you find what you seek during your journey!!

[Carbon]

I don't mean to sound counter-productive, but....

Do you use religion to motivate yourself?

I mean I know that this might sound bad considering you are all religious loving people but I myself find that over essentric religion makes me wary of the person preaching it.

I don't want to put you down I'm just kinda throwing my view into the conversation and wondering if anyone else is like this?

I have a rather crazed grandmother who was very religious and another who is still alive today. They always preach about being christian and get onto me because I don't want to watch a pastor with them on TV.

I am wondering if anyone else is semi-atheist on this forum besides me?

[Damian Mavis]

Of course there are Carbon but I think we should just leave that topic alone. Nothing good can come from it.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

Of course there are Carbon but I think we should just leave that topic alone. Nothing good can come from it.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Agree!!
Plus I had a friend once that was semipregnant. :D

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Carbon

I don't mean to sound counter-productive, but....

Do you use religion to motivate yourself?

I mean I know that this might sound bad considering you are all religious loving people but I myself find that over essentric religion makes me wary of the person preaching it.

I don't want to put you down I'm just kinda throwing my view into the conversation and wondering if anyone else is like this?

I have a rather crazed grandmother who was very religious and another who is still alive today. They always preach about being christian and get onto me because I don't want to watch a pastor with them on TV.

I am wondering if anyone else is semi-atheist on this forum besides me?

Carbon,
I am not sure what you mean.
I don't like to "Bible-thump" because I was an atheiest and/or agnostic pretty much for 30 years and seeing a bunch of hypocrytes preach never did me any good either. This is one reason I have been careful to restrict my religious comments on a forum like this.

But the church I got to preaches about the life-changing reality of Jesus Christ which I always thought was a bunch of delusionary crap until last year.

Quickly I'll tell you this. I was not doing well in my sales job, I was about to be evicted for the first time in my life, things were not going well. A religious buddy of mine corralled me at his house one day and preached to me about how God is the answer... etc ad nauseum, I thought he was insane.

Anyway, he let me go at about 1pm with a reminder that no matter what my problem was, God could make it disappear with no effort. For months I had already conceeded there might be a God but I thought the Christians, and Jesus were probably all nuts. Nevertheless I said a prayer on my way home. I got home about 1:15pm and the phone was ringing. The short version of this is that a guy from out of state who had never met me, called me and asked if he could wire me $600 to pay my rent. He got it to me to avoid me being evicted. That being the case I negotiated to move out of my apartment and the company had a special on some Luxury Apts right next to the Church I was now involved with and we moved in there for just about free and overall the rent was cheaper because of the special. Weeks later I said a prayer after a job interview, I directly asked God for a favor. Within 30mins a Christian friend of mine called out of the blue with a lead on a job that I eventually took. It paid 150% of what I had previously been making on salary and it had benefits.

This was all within 45days of officially becoming a Christian. There is more. My son became a Christian later, his mother and I got married on a Sat and baptised the following Sunday and now I'm looking at buying a house, all within 18 months of this Christianity thing. I am a poster child for the Life-Changing reality of Jesus Christ. Honest to God I thought it was all a bunch of crap my whole life, but this rapid, unquestionable chain of events has forced me to believe that Jesus is who he said he was. There is NO WAY I had the predominant influence over these events in my life. None. They were either amazing, startling coincidences or a great run of good luck or they were miracles like the Church says they were.

Prior to all this I had already seen too many "coincidences" to believe that they were all "coincidences" anyway and now I have a new outlook.

Most recently I think the Holy Spirit encouraged me to get to camp a day late as I related and that has had and will have a direct positive impact on my Martial Arts career.

So I don't use religion to motivate me, per se, but I mean with what I have been through it is difficult not to shout Praise God every 15 mins. I am new to all of this though and while I'm not a skeptic anymore, I'm trying to do what God wants me to do and this I think is how this thread got started. It seems pretty clear to me now that my Martial Arts interest an abilities are God-given and I am being cleared to pursue them and put them to good use.

I am so greatful for MartialTalk and this thread in particular. I have been a Brown Belt for 11years. This year I joined MartialTalk partly to keep my interest alive... I competed in a tournament circuit and won 1st in Forms, 1st in Weapons and 3rd in Sparring for Central Texas and I have been invited to the State Championships.

There a flood of God trying to help me out and show me what to do and I think I'm getting the picture. It is amazing. Nothing short of amazing. My church says that somehow all my good fortune is meant to glorify God. I am still pondering about all this, but maybe someone else will see this post and get some of the shocking, dramatic, earth-shaking, paradigm-shifting evidence they need to help them out somehow.

I would never have become a Christian through "faith alone" I'm afraid. Which is how you are "supposed" to get there, it took a dramatic, powerful, undeniable intervention by Christ into my life to get me on this train. But I'm here now and I hope I can help others have a portion of what I've seen.

The guy that sort of "brought me to Jesus" has a High School education and makes over $100,000 year. He says it is all God's grace. He is probably now moving toward becoming a Pastor or something. He just recently sold his large house for 1/4 Million to scale down his lifestyle in preparation for what he feels is an impending opportunity to change his focus. There is a lot of this going on in the world.

I hope I touched on your question, but I hope even more how you can see that with an unending stream of "good-luck" pouring toward me, that I can't help but acknowledge it periodically.

Some or all of this is already on my website at
http://www.cdouglashall.com/christ.html
but I will probably update that all later and maybe change the URL. There is a Cross on my homepage which links to that page though and if I change the URL, the link from the cross will still work.

I hope I have not just offended everyone on Earth with my gushing enthusiasm but I could not help myself. I know 7sm and Damian both wanted to caution everyone about addressing the topic. But I hope I have done OK. I wanted to relate my position because it was dramatic and it can not really be explained away.

Again, I want to sincerely thank everyone who has posted to this thread because without you the end result would have been different and I have personally already gotten a lot out of this. Thanks again.

:asian:

[cdhall]

Hey 7sm, you are now a Black Belt with 501 posts. :eek: Congratulations.
:asian:

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by cdhall

Hey 7sm, you are now a Black Belt with 501 posts. :eek: Congratulations.
:asian:

Thank you very much!! :asian:

[DireWolf]

June 15! That's my birthday! What a spin.


I have a rather crazed grandmother who was very religious and another who is still alive today. They always preach about being christian and get onto me because I don't want to watch a pastor with them on TV

That stuff is responsible for more atheists and anti-christian people than just about anything else.

Will post more later...in big hurry.

:yinyang:
DW

[ace]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Marginal]

I really don't see much a conflict between a healthy follower of a religion and doing a MA. Where the friction arises IMO is when people who are insecure start trying to use their diety of choice as a crutch or an excuse for why they elect to live the way they do etc. At that point it goes from honoring their chosen to trying to weasel into a supreme bieng's good graces.

Most of the Christians who are against people practicing martial arts, evolution, other faiths etc I've enountered seem to just be deeply insecure in their own faith. They can't identify with their chosen diety. They have no real conception of what it is they're trying to worship, and they don't actually trust their God. They do nothing but fear a giant fickle jerk up in the sky who puts you on the gravy train for awhile, but is really just looking for any excuse to send you to hell. The minset's deeply unhealthy and fanatisicm grows from it like flowers from manure.

It produces thoughts like, "God allowed the events on 9/11 to come to pass due to the diminishing Christian influence in the country." In essence, saying that God's a petty bastard that likes to punish people who don't think exactly like He wants them to. Thoughts that in short, manage to make all Chrisitians look bad in the process. That IMO is not religious thought, it's not piety, it's disease. (Makes one wonder if they're totally aphasiac to words like love, mercy, faith, tolerance etc...)

Along those lines, I don't see much coming out of questioning what a specific diety wants from you personally. It's not a bartering session. It's really a means to self-improvement. If MA helps you improve yourself/help others, there's no justifiable way to fear that you're going to be punished for it.

[Bod]

He thinks I'm flirting with "magic."

Man! God drops you a job and money and a new home and everything with a wave of his wand and martial arts is magic?

Martial arts being "magic" is marketing hype.

Martial arts is huge amounts of hard work for small rewards. That is the opposite of magic which promises the opposite.

I turn the other cheek constantly, I fogive my brother 7777 times. And I'm not even a Christian. And I practise martial arts.

If you sincerely believe that God gave you a body so that you could sit, bloated, in your underpants, watching a TV pastor, then good. Otherwise use what God gave you to the best of your ability for your family and friends.

[cdhall]

Originally posted by cdhall

...Since I became a Christian last year I am doing pretty good at listening to "that little voice" and getting impressive results.

I am also looking for little meanings in stuff and trying to get lessons from them. The guy who actually was the "last link in my chain" says this is wrong, but I have some good evidence to dispute him. He thinks I'm flirting with "magic." It is a shame we don't get along better....

Bod,

No, no. Not Martial Arts are "magic," he tells me that looking for meaning in everything, taking stuff as "signs from God" and then trying to "manipulate all this to my advantage" is dangerously close to magic. He says, among other things, that I should not "test God." And that I should not go into a situation hoping God will work it out "right." It is pretty confusing.

He also says that Christians are to make specific prayer requests of God and not just generically pray for "good stuff."

As I said, we don't get along well, I don't see him hardly anymore. We used to see each other about 3 times/week.

I'm trying to learn about all this stuff and I think most of the Christians I have ever met are far too concerned with you seeing what they are doing than in doing what needs to be done.

Obey the Lord and set a good example for others to follow. I think I could find quotes for this, but I won't use them. This is what I'm working on doing. I don't care if anyone sees me giving money to the poor or not, if I am doing what I should be doing God has promised to provide. I think that is right. It is beyond me how my buddy interprets this against me as "magic."

Sometimes I think he is a master of the "Straw Man" logical fallacy. He seems to me to constantly contradict himself and change the subject, but he brought me here so I think it is also good of me to find ways not to split with him completely. We kind of leave each other alone.

Does this make any sense? I did debate with him about Karate once and he said he thought it was good. But I think he was thinking of the "Karate Kid" we don't seem to have much of that philosophical stuff in Mr. Parker's Kenpo the way it is taught to me. So he is not against Karate, he just doesn't want me trying to bribe favors out of God I think.
:asian:

[Shinzu]

Originally posted by Bod


If you sincerely believe that God gave you a body so that you could sit, bloated, in your underpants, watching a TV pastor, then good. Otherwise use what God gave you to the best of your ability for your family and friends.

i like that one!!

[Bod]

Ah well, I missed the point entirely.

The sparrows of the field neither sow, nor do they reap, yet God makes sure they are fed. Is that magic?

Whether we are judged by God and found wanting, or judged by ourselves and found wanting, our motives will be known and judged.

Jesus said: judge ye not others, lest you so be judged.
Turning it around, I think it's also important that we don't do good works, just so that we are judged well by others. Although I am not a Christian, I know that Jesus praised the widow's mite. What he praised was her motive.

[Nightingale]

Carbon -

I think its important to differentiate between the people who let religion blindly lead them, and those who let religion open their eyes enough so they can follow the right path on their own.

My personal views:

I'm not absolutely certain, but I can make an educated guess that there is a god. there is simply too much order in this chaos that we call life for it to be otherwise. I judge my morality by my own gut feelings rather than any commandments, and I try to make sure that my actions do the most amount of good and the least amount of harm for the most people. I don't lie, because lies tend to come back and bite you in the arse when you're least expecting it, and if you tell the truth, you never have to rely on your lousy memory. I help people when I can, and pray to whatever deity happens to be listening when I can't.

Personally, I am a scholar of religions, and I tend to find so much good in all of them, and find them all incredibly fascinating. I don't feel educated enough to be able to say that one group is right and all the others are wrong, and unfortunately, religions tend to be mutually exclusive...you can't be both a christian and a wiccan or a jew or a hindu or a muslim. Honestly, I believe that we all worship the same deity (at least, those of us who walk on the light side) and we just tend to go about it in different ways.

but that's just me.

I could be wrong.

I guess we all find out sooner or later.

-Nightingale


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[chufeng]

Interesting discussion...

I am a Christian...I'm not afraid to admit it...I call myself a Zen Christian when people ask, but that is not what this forum is about...I will talk about it off line, though...

Regardless of religious background; to "turn the other cheek" requires that one has the capacity to really hurt the offending party. Turning the other cheek if you are weak and can't defend yourself anyways is just being weak..."turning the cheek" only has significance if one is actually withholding a potentially lethal force...it is the withholding of force as an expression of compassion for the person who would do you harm that shows a level of understanding the deeper levels of martial training.

So, my point is simply this...training in a martial art leads one to a deeper understanding and a greater appreciation of HOW you relate to those around you...Brothers and Sisters joined by a common "???" (fill in the ?)

:asian:
chufeng

[cdhall]

Originally posted by chufeng

Interesting discussion...

I am a Christian...I'm not afraid to admit it...I call myself a Zen Christian when people ask, but that is not what this forum is about...I will talk about it off line, though...

Regardless of religious background; to "turn the other cheek" requires that one has the capacity to really hurt the offending party. Turning the other cheek if you are weak and can't defend yourself anyways is just being weak..."turning the cheek" only has significance if one is actually withholding a potentially lethal force...it is the withholding of force as an expression of compassion for the person who would do you harm that shows a level of understanding the deeper levels of martial training.

So, my point is simply this...training in a martial art leads one to a deeper understanding and a greater appreciation of HOW you relate to those around you...Brothers and Sisters joined by a common "???" (fill in the ?)

:asian:
chufeng

I think you are right. Someone else posted a link to a websight that made a very similar point. I am hoping that is correct because even before I became a Christian, I thought that was as well. Somewhere I posted that I think this also supports the "peace through strength" theory that I also think makes sense.

I don't watch enough Kung Fu films, but didn't Bruce Lee always turn the other cheek at least once in his movies. :D

I think that was a theme of his. He got pushed around for half the film until he decided to strike back.

Thanks again to everyone for their insights. If you didn't lend any insights, I'll let you figure out who you are without my help. :eek:
:asian:

[DireWolf]

I judge my morality by my own gut feelings rather than any commandments, and I try to make sure that my actions do the most amount of good and the least amount of harm for the most people.

That's very much how I see it too. Fortunately the ethos of Christianity fits in exactly with how I feel. And when I say Christianity I mean the words of Christ over those of Paul, or Peter, or anyone else. I know people who follow the words of Paul more than they follow the words of Jesus, yet call themselves Christian. Christian=follower of Christ. 'Nuff said :D

I have been persecuted by a number of people in the faith about my martial arts. I always challenge them (to mortal combat!!!) (not really ;) ) to explain their views of the MA to me and I answer them according to my own experience and knowledge. I've found that the vast majority of them speak from ignorance...they heard a preacher somewhere saying "Martial Arts is bad...M'kay?" and haven't thought much beyond that point. I like to treat all people with respect and I respect that only the frothing fanatical fringe refuses to try and learn given the opportunity.

Cdhall ...
He also says that Christians are to make specific prayer requests of God and not just generically pray for "good stuff."

As far as I understand it you are to "petition God in all things". He wants to be in every part of your life. I ask God to be in everything I do...I hate the thought of being without him for a second. Don't let others dictate what is right or wrong. Seek God with an open heart and listen when he speaks. I have found that what one person believes to be not Godly has helped another find the Lord. Christianity is all about your relationship with God!

Peace!

:yinyang;
DW

[KennethKu]

Self defence is necessary for survival of both the individual and the specie. Christianity is not against self-defence. Turning the other cheek is a figure of speech to emphasize tolerance. Should not be taken literally. IMO

Just b/c one trains in the art of fighting, does not mean you have to deploy such skills. Just b/c we have nuclear weapons, does not mean we are going nuclear at every turn. :asian:

If you look at MA as a performance art, a skill, and you are training to achieve performance excellence, it is a lot easier to reconcile with your Christian teaching of not to inflict pain and suffering, and to love thy neighbors.

[fringe_dweller]

Being a Christian myself I've had a few concerns about the study of ki that the higher level black belts do in my art (hapkido). Is it tapping into some power that's inconsistent with my faith (rhetorical question)?
I guess what it comes down to is that I'm not studying that at the moment and it will be a while before I get there so I'll worry about it then.
I know what I've outlined is not quite what you were talking about but it's the same principle. In your situation I would have to say that doing MA training would be *helping* you turn the other cheek. With a higher level of skill comes the ability to avoid confrontation more effectively.

Respectfully

[cdhall]

Just wanted to let you know that I'm still in agreement with the previous 3 posts and I appreciate all the insights and perspectives.
Thank you all.
:asian:

[cdhall]

I just briefly brought this up to my Pastor this AM and he pretty much agreed that weathering insults is what is referred to by turning the other cheek and that you are "preserving life" by not letting someone kill or harm you so you can/should defend yourself.

He did caution me not to Kill however.

I told him not to worry though, that my system has Many options before Death and that the higher you go, the more likely it is that you will never have to kill anyone.

So I think I have resolved this dilemma. I will probably compile some written material such as quotes from this thread... for my notebook just so I have the material to look back on.

Thanks everyone.

[M F]

Obey the Lord and set a good example for others to follow.

If you live by this statement, you are doing as well as anyone can hope for.

My perspective on your original question is this.
I have a wife and an eight month old daughter. It is my number one responsibility in life to protect and provide for these two. Kenpo, among other things, gives me the ability to do this. If I could not protect them, I would be failing in my moral responsibilities. Very simple in my eyes.