Sparring and Fighting:

I was wondering what type of drills some of you former boxers or contact fighters did to work hand speed. I'm trying to increase the speed of my jab, 1-2 combo, 1-2-3 combo. I know that some of you more experienced guys have a good fighting background, so I was curious if you would be willing to share any drills or ideas for the sake of posterity :D . Any help or direction would be appreciated.

Thanks

I've always associated kenpoka with fast hands. (Not the John LaTourette eleven-hits-in-one-second thing, but legitimately fast handwork.) Is ther something kenpoka do for this?

OK, that was the easy answer!:D

I think that Kenpo practioners (of which I'm one) are known for their fast hands for a couple of reasons. One, Kenpo tends to have more hand strikes that are followed by additional hand strikes. Our legwork is typically lower and not as visible, but no less effective (in fact I believe more practical, and yes I can kick high when I want to). Two, speed is achieved with hands or feet by adhering to certain principles:

a. Combine movements whenever possible.
b. Keep action tight and compact eliminating unnecessary extension of strikes/blocks/kicks.
c. Maintain a continuous flow of motion, don't recock if the next strike/block is moving in that direction.
(Credit to GM Chuck Sullivan)

and... practice, practice, practice!

Respects,
Bill Parsons

Originally posted by bdparsons

Maintain a continuous flow of motion, don't recock if the next strike/block is moving in that direction.

Yes, this is certainly part of it--it creates the appearance of great speed through its efficiency.

Not to imply that other arts don't have this but I think a big part of that amazing "kenpo hand speed" comes from proper body mechanics. For a very simply demonstaraion take your hand in the on the hip chambered position. Now move it up about 7 inches, rorate your wrist so that your palm is pointing down and then see how fast you can move. Not very without wrecking your shoulder. Or compare how fast you can strike while holding your breath, inhaling, and exhaling.

Originally posted by Elfan

Not to imply that other arts don't have this but I think a big part of that amazing "kenpo hand speed" comes from proper body mechanics. For a very simply demonstaraion take your hand in the on the hip chambered position. Now move it up about 7 inches, rorate your wrist so that your palm is pointing down and then see how fast you can move. Not very without wrecking your shoulder. Or compare how fast you can strike while holding your breath, inhaling, and exhaling.

Good thought there, another reason I belive that adding to proper body mechanics are the principles of hammer, thrust, and whip.
Adding these ideas increase by "whipping" (throw a frisbee) with an outward handsword/chop and returning the hand to the "hammering" (put same hand you just threw frisbee with up by your shoulder/face) refrence point and then striking with a hammerfist or inward handsword/chop.
But even that simple idea of hammer, thrust, and whip does take one thing

Practice, practice, practice.........

Yes Mrs. Peabody...........(hate piano lessons)
:asian:

These elements do create more than the "appearance" of speed. Properly incorporated they do result in greater speed. Basic physiological rules (or body mechanics).

Respects,
Bill Parsons

Originally posted by bdparsons

These elements do create more than the "appearance" of speed. Properly incorporated they do result in greater speed.

I believe it--but I imagine it also makes the moves look smoother and faster.

Originally posted by arnisador

I believe it--but I imagine it also makes the moves look smoother and faster.

From the third person view using all of Kenpos principles the moves do appear to be extremely fast. Some would then say speed does not make for quality on contact and that is the beauty of Kenpo is that when you hit with proper body mechanics even with speed the force is devestating.

Recalling a seminar with Mr. Paul Dye and I questioned him about "recoil" OUch.....

In between bouts of going 90 mph, try very slow speed with your techniques sbout Tai Chi speed. This trains the synapses and allows you, consciously, to become aware of the muscular functions. That way, you are putting the knowledge into the body in several ways.

Ed Parker said, so I have heard, that when asked about how he was so fast, I move efficiently, not quickly... Or words to that effect.

The slow training is just one more trick in learning to move very fast and efficiently.

Dan

Sigung86, could you elaborate on that? Are you saying that the best way to become fast is to do it slow and get it right (efficient, proper body mechanics etc.) which will cause the speed to come naturally?

I'm wit' Dan.

I think that the best best to develop "hand speed," and I'm not at all convinced that "hand speed," is worth a damn, is to really work your kenpo...the forms and sets especially.

In fact, I'm convinced that not only useful speed (as opposed to "useless") but any speed at all properly comes from the floor, the feet, the hips, the waist, in that order. Assuming, of course, that you're just moving by yourself--if you're hitting somebody, a lot of your speed comes from them. Example: the step-back and back-knuckle in, "Thundering Hammers."

Here's my cheap saying: "If your hands are wrong, look at your feet."

Then again, I can't imagine me and a speed bag.

Robert

Originally posted by Elfan

Sigung86, could you elaborate on that? Are you saying that the best way to become fast is to do it slow and get it right (efficient, proper body mechanics etc.) which will cause the speed to come naturally?

Exactly!!! To borrow a historical bit. Lord Talleyrand was headed to London in his coach and four in the days of yore. There was a major storm going on and the driver was trying to make quick time. He was running through puddles, and big gaping holes and greatly impeding his own progress. Talleyrand tapped up on the roof with his cane and told the driver, "Slow down! I'm in a hurry!"

Anybody can "rip" through techniques... You've probably seen some folks who can really "rip". But I will guarantee you that unless they have been doing it slowly and with sensitivity, they aren't ripping really well.

Doctor Bob says it well. How fast do you need to go? If you are ripping and tearing through a technique and the attacker's body hasn't had time to react to the previous strikes, you are either slapping air, or not hitting inappropriate targets.

Speed is pretty, but unless it is applied in a fastidious and understood manner, and afer learning what you "should" be doing, it is the same as flailing the wind and about as useful.

I, like my learned friend, Doctor Bob, shudder at the thought of mixing up with a speed bag... And I see no reason to. If you can do a technique at a very slow speed with applied efficiency of motion, you can rip! Talk to Dennis Conatser, Doc Chapel, Doctor Bob, Larry Tatum ... Well you get the idea. I suspect all of them will tell you that learning and moving through the techniques with good form, balance, breathing, lack of intense focus and slowness is a great way to get the technique inculcated correctly and well.

It's sort of like driving a C5 Vette. 380 HP on the front of a 6 speed tranny. Any fool can go fast, but by going slow and learning how to shift efficiently, which muscles work best and easiest... Slowly working your way through the clutch/shift points and idiosyncracies will allow you to much more effectively go through the traps at a race... Or get you to your top end a lot more quickly and efficiently ... That would be a 12.7 second quarter mile at 120 mph. Or you will more quickly get to your top speed of 177 mph. And do it with control and efficiency.

I'm not trying to teach, and sorry if I sound like I'm preaching ... If I'm not clear or can help in any other way, please feel free to let me know.

Saintly Uncle Dan :asian: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :asian:

Then too, if you really want a serious workout...try doing Kicking Set 1 at t'ai chi speed.

I believe one of the reasons the slow approach to training is so effective in the long run is muscle memory. You are training the actual cells of your muscles and the related brain synapses to autopilot under the correct stimulus.

Everyone can experience this phenomenon during the period of learning a new move/form/technique/etc.. The first few (0-20) times you perform it will feel somewhat un-intuitive, even awkward. The more times you repeat the same motion, the more familiar it feels and the more natural. At the same time your speed and efficiency increase because your brain and muscle coordination have been pre-programmed by the repetitions you have previously performed.

This can also be seen with similar techniques you have previously learnt and hence programmed, especially with common initial moves. You might begin with the intent of one technique, but your autopilot takes over from your conscious thought and before you know it you've done Dance of Death instead of Sleeper, etc.

Clearly if your repetetious training is incorrect, through trying to be fast instead of good initially, you are then programming a bad autopilot that is less effective and efficient in the long run.

In terms of actual effective physical conditioning for speed, I believe the key is focused training. With any physical conditioning, your muscles will adapt to the highest imperative you place on them. Thus if you run a lot, your muscles (and other support functions such as heart, lungs, etc.) will adapt themselves to be most efficient when running, i.e. slow steady aerobic style activity. Now for Martial Arts, you really want explosive power and speed (and of course accuracy), things you don't really gain from running alot (or other aerobic exercise).

If you cross train and perform different types of conditioning, e.g. at the gym doing some running, some cycling, some slow, heavy weights, etc. What you are really doing is compromising your muscles to deal with many different imperatives and thus will not be fully efficient at any of them. To ensure you gain power and speed for Kenpo, perform exercises that mimic movements, but with resistance and explosive power. An ideal example is clap hands push-ups. You are basically mimicking a palm strike (and punch) action under resistance and at high speed. Another similar one is knuckle bounce push-ups (i.e. do knuckle push-ups and push up off the ground at the top, landing back on your knuckles- can also be good, but painful knuckle conditioning on a wooden floor!).

Frankly I think just practising Kenpo frequently and with passion and energy, and maybe use a heavy bag to add resistance, is an excellent way to train the body.

One last thought is the importance of flexibility and muscle looseness. The better stretching I do, the faster and easier my training and reactions.

An additional comment on the suggestions to perform various activities slowly, e.g. at Tai Chi speed.

This is a great way to instill correct technique, to enhance breathing with body motion and to strengthen muscles, but it will only enhance your speed as a consequence of increased muscle strength. In and of itself, slow movements will train your muscles to be slow, not fast.

When I perform something slowly a number of times, I make sure I perform it at full speed more times to train for full speed movement as well as correctness, etc.

Sigung86 I see what your saying now, I was a little confused by "Tai Chi speed" speed. When I think Tai Chi I think fluid, which is different from speed.... Anyway I couldn’t agree more, become fast by doing the stuff right.

Just one point here:
How fast do you need to go? If you are ripping and tearing through a technique and the attacker's body hasn't had time to react to the previous strikes, you are either slapping air, or not hitting inappropriate targets.


When I think speed I think doing each individual move quickly. Not necessarily decreasing the time we take to choose what we are going to do. I think people who don't take any time (I mean fraction of a second) to choose are the ones who look like a crazy flopping fish.

Chu-Chulain, just a note, as you are no doubt aware the use of polymetrics, mimicking sports specific movements in the gym, "explosive" weight lifting etc is rather controversial.

In my considered opinion, the pursuit of speed is a dead end. Certainly, I've never seen a martial arts book--not Mr. parker's--that advocates, or instructs, in building speed. Strength, yes. Power, sure. Form? Above all. But speed...nope, I don't think so. Because it's a dead end. Ask how to build better form.

Thanks.

Chu-Chulain, Elfan, I probably did not make myself clear when stating what I did. I’m hearkening back to old days when Tai Chi Speed simply meant slow. I am sorry for not being clearer. But, by the same token, it doesn’t hurt to do your techniques the same as you would Tai Chi Chuan, that would be the same as slow and flowing.

I didn’t, at any time, advocate that you only do your techniques slowly. As a matter of fact, the whole idea, in my mind, and as I train, is to do techniques slowly with fluidity and very little external power, followed by slowly with fluidity and external power, and finally at speed with power.

Not being a follower of all the latest training fads, I simply do what works for me. A combination of all of the above adds a bit of the Yin and Yang and selective fun to the old training schedule.

Chu-Chulain … There is, in my mind, a point to doing motions which are similar to the motions we do to perform a technique. Muscle memory, no matter how you define it, is an important aspect of being able to function “quickly”. Ed Parker saw this when he used to talk about how punching was simply an extension, if you will, of reaching in front of you for something. A Parry could be very similar to reaching up and running your fingers through the hair on the side of your head, etc. It stands to reason that “teaching” your muscles and muscle groups similar motions could not hurt. Even at speed and with strength.

I do, however, think that slow motion, in the beginning, is as important, if not more important than fast motion. Again, my opinion only, we are teaching the muscles motion with that type of exercise. Not speed, not power … that can all be added with extra exercises and the type of training that Chu-Chulain is talking about and by simply doing “at speed with power” techniques. I simply think back to things that are natural… For instance, we, as babies, did not start off running. We had to teach our bodies and minds the motions and efforts and Physical Alignments needed to create a controlled falling condition, that would be walking, followed by running … LOL!

When I teach stance acquisition, I do it, in the beginning, slowly, and with deliberation, that way the student gets to feel all the muscular and synaptic connections that must be made to successfully acquire a neutral bow, hard bow, kneel stance, etc. I have found over the years that if you go at it fast and hard in the beginning, you will have to stop somewhere along the way and correct for bad habits acquired early on.

And not to sound stuffy, or anything like that, but I approach Kenpo more from the traditional Chinese methodology than many others. I have a relatively deep perspective from Shaolin Training of many years ago.
I work with Physical Alignments (thanks to you know who! :lol: ) and body training for the maximum application of power that is both external and internal. Before anyone gets heated up … I’m not saying that anyone else’s approach is wrong, and I am not asking anyone to believe in something that they have not felt or experienced (Chi). It is simply my approach based on my early training and years of experience. There are, in my estimation, more types of power in the human paradigm than simply muscular application, but that is for a different series of posts. And, actually, whether there is or not for you, it doesn’t hurt to train as if there might be! LOL! This is, after all, a lifetime journey, and one, in which, I want to explore all the possibilities.

Going fast at the expense of slowness and learning, may be better… It is, as elfan said, controversial. I simply, personally, do not see it as a useful adjunct to teaching something that should be a lifelong skill. Beside that, it is just fun sometimes to slow down and at least see the roses! :lol:

When I think speed I think doing each individual move quickly. Not necessarily decreasing the time we take to choose what we are going to do. I think people who don't take any time (I mean fraction of a second) to choose are the ones who look like a crazy flopping fish.

Exactly … Ripping quickly through techniques does not give you the opportunity, or the option to change, or more than superficially, control your desired outcomes.

Intelligent application of speed and power, combined with observation and determination is the way to go, in my opinion. It is much like the old famous gunfighters like Bat Masterson… He said that he wasn’t the fastest, but he was among the successful ones who realized that accuracy and choice was better than speed alone. Although, it is important, in my mind to have both. Extreme speed is, again my opinion only, a tertiary requirement.

Simply take my comments for what they are ... Comments based on opinion and the paradigm of my experience. That is, after all, the total of the knowledge that I have to draw on. Individual results may vary.

Dan

originally posted by Sigung86
I do, however, think that slow motion, in the beginning, is as important, if not more important than fast motion. Again, my opinion only, we are teaching the muscles motion with that type of exercise. Not speed, not power … that can all be added with extra exercises and the type of training that Chu-Chulain is talking about and by simply doing “at speed with power” techniques.

This is exactly what my instructor tells us. He told me to work on my form first, and the rest, such as speed and power, will follow with practice. A saying he likes to use is a thousand times slow to one time fast. I'm sure he doesn't mean that literally, but we get the point. Most of the advice you gave in this post sounds a lot like my insructor.
:asian:

Such a comparison by the student does us both honor. Thank you Cory.

Dan

when it comes to speed obviously the better your mechanics the faster you will be,but you are only working the physical part.muscle memory is great when training slow but i got faster by training my attributes. for an example to be fast you have to convince your brain you are fast then you have to be able to relay the message from your brain to your muscles with the same type of speed and conviction. try doing your jab full motion start to finnish,then do your jab 50% of the distance ie a half jab. then try starting your jab at 50%distance and finnish at 100% full range,this is just one way to isolate your speed training. not to mention your perceptual training when you work with a partner don't forget about that either.
later
jay
ps this drill came from paul vunaks attribute tape 1 and yes i do kenpo as well. i hope this helps:p

Originally posted by Sigung86

Such a comparison by the student does us both honor. Thank you Cory.

Dan

You're welcome Mr. Farmer. :asian:

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

In my considered opinion, the pursuit of speed is a dead end. Certainly, I've never seen a martial arts book--not Mr. parker's--that advocates, or instructs, in building speed. Strength, yes. Power, sure. Form? Above all. But speed...nope, I don't think so. Because it's a dead end. Ask how to build better form.

Thanks.

Power = work/time = force * velocity

How is power seperated from speed? Or are you saying that speed is a *good* thing to have but a *bad* thing to work on? It is much better to work on your form, those goofy speed drills and playing with speed bags are unuseful?

Chu-Chulain, Elfan, I probably did not make myself clear when stating what I did. I’m hearkening back to old days when Tai Chi Speed simply meant slow. I am sorry for not being clearer. But, by the same token, it doesn’t hurt to do your techniques the same as you would Tai Chi Chuan, that would be the same as slow and flowing.

Aww that was my confusion! I do not think of fluid motion and slow motion nececarily synomous. Your reference to Tai Chi was a refernce to both. Sounds like a good way to train to me.


jaybacca72 , how do you break down the differnt types of speed? I saw a refernec to physcial and perceptual speed.

originally posted by Elfan
jaybacca72 , how do you break down the differnt types of speed? I saw a refernec to physcial and perceptual speed.

I know this was directed at jaybacca72, but I gotta throw my 2 cents worth in here. :D There are actually 3 types of speed, perceptual, mental, and physical. Perceptual speed is how fast we perceive the things going on around us, mental speed is how fast the brain relays the perceived information to the body, and physical speed is the quickness at which our body moves. I'm sure jaybacca72 can give a much better explanation.

Just to be clear on my earlier posts and to ensure I was not misunderstood. My suggestions were directed solely at the original question which was asking about speed drills, etc.

I am personally a big advocate of slow and deliberate training. Being not as young as I used to be (dreaded middle age, ugh.....), I need a bit more mental and physical reenforcement than some of the younger kids (18-24ish) who appear to grasp things a lot quicker than me. Also, frankly I am not anywhere near peak physical condition and do not currently train particularly for speed, being more interested in applied knowledge than knocking anyones block off!

However, if you really want to be quick, speed training is important, constantly training slowly but accurate will only do so much, you have to practice fast if you want to be fast.

Personally if I were to choose between speed, power and accuracy, I would place them as:

1. Accuracy
2. Speed
3. Power

If you are not accurate, you will never execute correctly, if you are slow, your opponent can dodge, so without these two, raw physical power is very limited. In fact if you train too much for strength, your actual muscle mass will tend to slow you down, especially on hand movements.

I think as with many things its finding the correct balance, which of course is different for everyone.

BTW I am not aware of the controversy over plyometrics, but would be truly interested to learn more on the subject.

at work here. This thread seemed to quickly deviate from the initial question that was asked and has slowly started to come back around. The assumption I speak of is people thinking that speed training is at the expense of everything else. When we speak of training at slow speed form is obviously paramount, but is it any less paramount when training for speed? Absolutely not!! The concepts introduced are meant to supplement the good form you develop in other ways to result in speed. If all other factors are the same, speed will allow you to be devastating. Kudos to the individual who spoke of the relationship between accuracy, speed and power. They have it exactly right.

If you want to train all day long on the perfect form, go ahead and at the end of your training you will have slow, perfect form. Not enough to help your hiney when the game is on. Please folks, remember speed is a crucial element of your training. One element, yes, but no less important than the other elements of accuracy or power or form. If you have an instructor who does not teach the elements of speed in your training, don't be too hard on them, that's probably the way they were taught. If you are one of these instructors, you owe it to yourself and your students to do some serious catching up.

Respects,
Bill Parsons

Um..ah...I suspect my instructors can be relied upon.

The only time Larry Tatum mentions speed in class is in terms of getting the technique done rather than fooling about (as in "Robert! come on, get it done!") or in terms of, "useless speed."

Sure, speed's important. But what are its elements? How is it to be trained?

Like Dan, I said nothing about only training slowly. Of course not. What I said was that the pursuit of speed as an end in itself, the isolation of speed (particularly hand speed) from everything else in kenpo, are dead ends. I don't have a lifetime's experience by any stretch of the imagination, but after seeing some martial artists and some students who obsess on sheer speed, I can say this: nearly all buy their speed at the expense of everything that counts.

As for personal experience, there's this: all increases in speed, guess why? better form, better stances, better dropping, better comprehension of what I'm doing.

I also stand behind the idea that I think Dan had in mind: it is a detriment to beginners to work on speed. On the forums, though, you hear the claims a lot: work just on speed. Work on strength. Work on....isolated things.

I say, work the techniques, the basics, the forms, the sets. The speed will come in its own sweet time. Anyway, isn't speed part of the basics as they are?

Of course, Joe Lewis could kick my tail in a second, so there ya go.

There is a certain minimum speed at which a block, strike, parry, etc. is effective. It is not subjective but empirical, and based upon not only your "speed" but your opponent's momentum, through whatever dimension. The AKKI has some interesting rhythm drills and Paul Mills is known for his incredible hand speed. I was at the Pasadena school in 91 @ the IKKA seminar following Mr. Parker's passing, and the number of his students attending and participating was phenomenal (all Black Belt if my memory serves me.) Paul Mills put on an astounding demonstration of not just hand speed, but speed throughout the techniques he taught, with power. Mr. Parker's "Flow first, power later" was the axiom of the day. The relaxed muscles were necessary to generate the speed. Hmmm....?

Anyhow, my point, I have taught the seminars where you strike 18 times in a 6 second burst. I then move to the "but hadn't you rather strike a fewer number of times with more power" and proceed to introduce the principles, concepts and theories of American Kenpo? I was trying to dissuade a somewhat skeptical audience, from thinking that Kenpo was a "Slap Art". I taught that you have to allow the opponent's body time to react and introduced borrowed force, feeding, rebouding, etc. Needless to say, I suceeded and got invited back. Shucks, I ain't nothing compared to my teachers.

I have had a few boxers with amazing hand speed in my school. There is no wasted motion when they are in boxing mode, and they hit truely hard with a resounding THWACK ... pretty much every time. What was more impressive to me was the speed of the footwork, which made the hands more effective. They were doing what we did, but much more specialized and limited in terms of weapons. This allowed them to practice a very few things, but with a much larger number of repetitions in the boxing gym. When you have thrown thousands of effective punches, it is easy to see why they punch better than a kenpoist who is working on long range, contact penetration range, and contact manipulation ranges with a variety of weapons. It takes us longer - unless you are like a friend of mine, Julian, who just quit testing when he discovered sparring. He did exactly what the boxers did, practicing over, and over, and over a limited number of moves until they were spontaneous. We had some interesting times with seminars from people like Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, and a couple of regulars at Brian Duffy's school were nationally rated, Covert Blackledge and Raymond McCallum for example. Mr. McCallum taught by doing, and the lessons tended to stick with you, especially the ones associated with bruises and dings. One of Julian's favorite teachers. Julian sparred like a Brown Belt by the end of 2 years of sparring at Orange Belt. Mr. Duffy finally made him test, so by Brown he was training for full contact fights.

Practice, practice, practice - add "Perfect" to that statement and you will have it. Just work that 2 punch or 3 punch combo over and over again, shadow box it, work it on the bag, work it against mitts, work it until you don't think about it ... and add the footwork (the hardest thing of all) until it comes naturally for you.

Have fun with it and one day it will just be there for you.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

Originally posted by Chu-Chulain

Just to be clear on my earlier posts and to ensure I was not misunderstood. My suggestions were directed solely at the original question which was asking about speed drills, etc.

BTW I am not aware of the controversy over plyometrics, but would be truly interested to learn more on the subject.

Woops guess I fall in the misunderstanding category. Anyway it seems that some of the articles on plyometrics I was thinking of arn't on the net anymore.

http://martialarts.about.com/cs/plyometrics/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Supertraining/

Thats the best I could do, if you can find "Plyometrics: The Base of the Exercise Comunity" by Ken Hutchins that was the article I really had in mind.


Originally posted by kenpo_cory

I know this was directed at jaybacca72, but I gotta throw my 2 cents worth in here. :D There are actually 3 types of speed, perceptual, mental, and physical. Perceptual speed is how fast we perceive the things going on around us, mental speed is how fast the brain relays the perceived information to the body, and physical speed is the quickness at which our body moves. I'm sure jaybacca72 can give a much better explanation.

I would consider mental speed more how quickly we *interpret* what we percieve and decide what to do about it.

I don't know Bill ... I went back through the threads and I think everyone, including myself is over-simplifying. The whole topic of speed, power, etc. could probably be dealt with in a one thousand page plus type of book.

I am responding, because I do not want you, or anyone else to think that I do not advocate speed. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was responding based on Chu-Chulains post, because it left out, or seemed to at the time, the essence of the martial art, and that would be the correct form.

If speed in and of itself is the be all to end all (agan, my over simplification) then why would we need to study form and function? All we would really need is speed and an idea of motion.

My apologies if you thought I intended to detract from the speed side. I simply want to indicate that there should be more. And, really Bill, perhaps it is not a necessity of catching up anywhere, except in your model of the arts. :asian:

Dan

of the entire thread I realize I may have been the one with the incorrect assumption. It seemed to me, as you say Dan, that many were oversimplifying, and that was disturbing to me. My aplogies to anyone I may have offended. My model of the martial arts is probably no different than yourself or the majority of martial artists you know. I am not a "speed freak" (in any connotation of the phrase), I would consider myself to be a balanced martial artist. I hold each of the elements discussed in high regard.

Mr. Robertson, I certainly have no bone to pick with Mr. Tatum's teaching methods, his ability speaks for itself. It could very well be that he has developed other ways to teach speed to his students, rather than addressing the subject directly. I also have absolutely no use for speed just for the sake of speed. I'm not an "all fluff and no stuff" sort. I agree whole-heartedly with assertion that Kenpo is executed from the ground up. My students constantly hear the mantra of "No stance=No chance". But I would hope you agree that the element of speed must be addressed in some fashion to help any student gain the most from their overall training.

Mr. Billings, thank you for describing your teaching method relating to this subject.

Respects,
Bill Parsons

No, in point of fact, I do not agree about addressing speed as an independant entity.

First off, I'm certainly no expert on sports physiology. But beyond the general ideas about kenpo I've already advanced, beyond my suspicion about training to separate the parts of the body when I think speed comes from unifying them and removing excess, beyond the fact that the exercises to build speed are already in kenpo, I looked briefly at the plyometrics site.

First: their description of lengthening/rapidly contracting is how I was taught to kick, back-knuckle, etc. in the first place. Second, the site mentions that plyometrics are primarily useful for people with lots of fast-twitch muscles--sprinters, that is. I'm a slow-twitch guy. More than that, the stuff mentioned as a benefit? I don't want it; I don't want the "explosive leaps," the jumps and kicks, etc. Me keep feet on ground. And what's the exact long-term physiological effect of such workouts on the knees, spine, joints, etc?

I'm probably overstating my case. And I don't claim expertise..I just say that this stuff is already in the kenpo soup mix.

Thanks for the discussion.

I'm not familiar with plyometrics, don't know that I care to be. Frankly just hearing folks discuss it on various forums leaves me a bit skeptical.

Well, I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I've no doubt that you'll glean the the very best from your training and use it to continually improve.

Respects,
Bill Parsons

something I haven't seen mentioned yet (perhaps I missed it) is the concept of "point of origin."

Many other arts require hands to be chambered or bring an inward block way out to the outside to gain momentum for the inward block. Kenpo brings the hand from where it starts to where it stops, with no detour required. You can see this in Blocking set 1... the upward block turns directly into the inward block, no chambering, and also in Delayed Sword. Your inward block turns in to the outward handsword with no reset or chambering. your hand simply moves from point A (where you stopped your block) to point B (your target for the handsword) with no detour required.

Kenpoists look fast with their hands because many times they're making a move of about say...18 inches for an inward block (from hip to block final position) rather than 36 inches (from hip, outward and then inward to final block position, shotokan style ...I chose shotokan because we've got two people in the studio who came over from shotokan and this is how they block), so naturally, the 18 inch motion is twice as fast. "To beat a motion, meet it." By the time you make the 36 inch motion, your opponent's punch is probably only travelling 12 inches, if its a jab, and you've already been hit, because you have to travel three times as far. If you execute the kenpo inward block, travelling only 18 inches while stepping offline, you have a really good chance of not getting hit.

I'm sure the GoldenDragon or another kenpo black belt can explain it better than I, but I tried.

originally posted by Elfan
I would consider mental speed more how quickly we *interpret* what we percieve and decide what to do about it.

And that's what I get for sticking my 2 cents worth where it wasn't asked for.

I think the mental speed makes a big difference. Often it seems like the high-ranked martial artists I watch don't move so much faster as a.) sooner and b.) more directly, as mentioned in this thread. They know where they're going and they go straight there.

I see it in karate too--some do the wide blocks as mentioned, others only practice that way to practice and develop the full range of motion but then use whatever subunit of that motion they need in application.

Perceptual speed intrigues me.

I tend to agree with arnisador. I thing perceptual speed gives a much greater advantage. I think a percieved attack and understanding the aggresive attack will let the experienced martial artist move and strike together. Therfore seeming to be much faster.

maybe


JD

Originally posted by kenpo_cory

And that's what I get for sticking my 2 cents worth where it wasn't asked for.

Dude I liked your responce. I was just adding a subtle diference that *I* make and wanted to see what others though of it. Please throw in as many 2 cent bits as you can/want. It was making this discusion very interesting.

Originally posted by rmcrobertson



I'm probably overstating my case. And I don't claim expertise..I just say that this stuff is already in the kenpo soup mix.

Thanks for the discussion.

I think a lot of people fail to see that we have several things already in the system and for a reason...we might not know the reason when we are learning it but later it should fall into place! Muscle memory and practice is where it is at using sound kenpo principles.

Good point sir, I wish more people pushed that view from time to time.

I have read the posts about body mechanics to develop speed. Correct hand speed can only be dictated by the lower body. Proper position of the legs/hips to bring power and speed. I will use 5 swords as an example. Everyone here should know this technique. When stepping forward you are to be in a right neutral bow. From this position you rotate into a forward bow with two strikes on the same rotation. While rotating in a forward bow you strike with the front hand then rear hand. The rear hand can only travel with the rotation of the hips. No rotation no power or speed. (this could be a reason why people think kenpoist have a lot of hand speed) Now to move into the uppercut you must shift back to the neutral bow gaining power with the strike. Sure you could uppercut from the forward bow but there won't be all of the torque or body fusion with the strike. Only striking with the arm. I suppose the next move depends on your lineage/instructor or so forth. The left hand strikes the side of the neck to pull the attacker down. Once again for the fifth strike uses marriage of gravity while turning the hips into a right wide kneel. (I personally use the wide kneel because of being smaller I find it more effective "personally") Now if you want to take it a step further. As the right hand slices through the neck the left palm heel comes up to strike the chin both slicing through their respected targets. Shift your hips into a right reverse wide kneel when slicing the two strikes. This opens the throat for the seventh handsword to the throat. Pick your available target for the back kick and leave the scene. My point on this is sure everyone can do all 7 strikes standing still or slightly moving but if the lower body is working together with the upper the hands will becomes less powerful & your speed will diminish greatly. In this technique we learn 2 strikes on one rotation. Five swords is just a great technique that each hand/arm can pick up the next punching hand if thrown in succession. I really believe that this is one of the tech. that everyone thinks kenpoist hands are extremely fast that's why I used this for an example. Thanks for reading all of the way through and hopefully you aren't rolling your eyes at me.

originally posted by jfarnsworth
My point on this is sure everyone can do all 7 strikes standing still or slightly moving but if the lower body is working together with the upper the hands will becomes less powerful & your speed will diminish greatly.

Don't you mean you will have greater power and speed?

Good post. Kenpo from the ground up, essential.

You wrote: My point on this is sure everyone can do all 7 strikes standing still or slightly moving but if the lower body is working together with the upper the hands will becomes less powerful & your speed will diminish greatly.

Did you mean to write ...if the lower body is not working together with the upper...

Just curious,
Bill Parsons

Sorry about that I didn't proof read before I sent it off. Plus I was tired and wanted to go to bed.

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

Sorry about that I didn't proof read before I sent it off. Plus I was tired and wanted to go to bed.

Plus! It's obvious that he isn't practicing his Kenpo typing accuracy drills! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan "Bada-Bing! Bada-Boom!" Farmer

bumber I wanted "isn't" in that spot. Now I can't go back and edit it because I'm too late. Oh well.

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

bumber I wanted "isn't" in that spot. Now I can't go back and edit it because I'm too late. Oh well.

If you send an unambiguous request to an administrator we'd be happy to edit it.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

There was a previous post on here that I would like to expand on an idea that was given. (This will probably get off of the original topic but I was thinking about this later today anyway) In the kenpo system we are taught to prefix, suffix, alter, rearrange, insert, delete, regulate, and adjust our techniques. Using one or the other or in multiples aids in making our hand speed look faster. I'm going to use the extension to shielding hammer (maybe not a good one) for this example. After applying the base move we step into a left front twist w/a right downward hammerfist to the groin. From here unwind into a left neutral bow while executing a right obscure vert. elbow to the chin followed by the right underhand heel of palm with then yet a left outward handsword to the throat. In this particular sequence there was three strikes on one rotation of our body. (this was the 1st example that came to mind) In other places we insert or adjust to keep the technique flowing. See my point. Also, the farther you go in learning kenpo we learn half beat, quarter beat timing. Look for this stuff and play around with your techniques this is a good way to learn. Hopefully this will help.

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
In my considered opinion, the pursuit of speed is a dead end. Certainly, I've never seen a martial arts book--not Mr. parker's--that advocates, or instructs, in building speed. Strength, yes. Power, sure. Form? Above all. But speed...nope, I don't think so. Because it's a dead end. Ask how to build better form.

Thanks.

TKD.

And you have to take into account that you can increase power through speed too...

But I agree with the one who stated that accuracy should come first.

Btw, I think that speed also comes from learning to relax the muscles while moving and before actually hitting. It's one of the principles of kenpo, instantaneous acceleration, you know, the one that says you can safe a lot of energy in a movement by only applying it when needed (free transliteration, of course).

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
TKD.

And you have to take into account that you can increase power through speed too...

But I agree with the one who stated that accuracy should come first.

Btw, I think that speed also comes from learning to relax the muscles while moving and before actually hitting. It's one of the principles of kenpo, instantaneous acceleration, you know, the one that says you can safe a lot of energy in a movement by only applying it when needed (free transliteration, of course).

Exactly, Power = force * velocity

Good point on relaxation.

I agree that speed should be one of the last things you work on. After your form is excelent, you have no bad habits etc.

Hey bud
don't know if you'd looked into this yet or not, but you might look into various plyometric exercises for the arms. Plyometrics emphasize the development of explosive fast-twitch muscular contractions.... like we want in our punches/jabs.

My favorite is to get a medicine ball and lay on your back on a bench (much like you'd use to bench-press with). Lay the medicine ball on your chest with your hands on either side of the ball, throw the ball straight up into the air above your chest as forcefully as you can..... don't forget to catch it when it comes back down. "ouch" This is much better than just benchpressing forcefully, you can't continue the acceleration through the end of the motion. When you throw it you accellerate through the very end. Clap push-ups can work to a similar end, but not as efficiently.

There are other good ones too. Other than this, don't forget that power comes up from the ground and accelerates through the waist. Don't get into thinking that the muscles used are in the chest/shoulder/arm.... these aren't even the majority of the muscles activated by a jab/punch.

OK... I'm ranting.
But then...hey
It's Me...
Your Brother
John

Originally posted by Brother John
My favorite is to get a medicine ball and lay on your back on a bench (much like you'd use to bench-press with). Lay the medicine ball on your chest with your hands on either side of the ball, throw the ball straight up into the air above your chest as forcefully as you can..... don't forget to catch it when it comes back down. "ouch" This is much better than just benchpressing forcefully, you can't continue the acceleration through the end of the motion. When you throw it you accellerate through the very end. Clap push-ups can work to a similar end, but not as efficiently.
Ouch, it hurts just to think in not catching it :rofl:


There are other good ones too. Other than this, don't forget that power comes up from the ground and accelerates through the waist. Don't get into thinking that the muscles used are in the chest/shoulder/arm.... these aren't even the majority of the muscles activated by a jab/punch.

He hasn't forget. The force in the equation comes from
Force = mass * acceleration (this is your body weight)
You can't change it in a moment, but you can involve all of your weight in the strike with proper body alignment. That's what my instructors keep telling us all of the time.