Rear 2-hand choke:

Version A

1) Tuck chin, right foot stepping to 11 o'clock

2) Rotate facing opponent into hard bow, striking the arms with a left outward block and a right punch to the ribs.

3) Left vertical fist to the face.

4) Right corckscrew punch to face.

5) Cover out.


Version B

1) Left foot steps behind right foot to 5 o'clock

2) Rotate facing opponent, left outward block, right horizontal elbow to ribs.

3) Cover out.


These are versions of the way the techs. are performed at the school I attend. I thought we could discuss any other versions out there.

One difference with version B that I do. Depending on what the attacker is doing to you with the choke, ie: pushing you forward or pulling you back, I also perform this version by stepping forward. I found that it works just as good for me.

Mike

Mike, the A & B are put in there for whether or not you are pushed or pulled when the opponent "strikes." I do both versions starting with a punch then folding into the elbow if necessary.

I find that if you step back and look at the technique, it is very similar in mechanics to Crash of the Eagle. Obviously it finishes differently, but the initial survival of the assault is very similar with stepping, turning, and clearing the guy's hands off you. However, I kind of like Crash of the Eagle's clearing technique a bit better. Circling the elbow high to crash down on his arms and make the clear seems a bit more effective to me, than an outward block. Maybe they arguably are about equal, it's just preference.

I kind of look at these as variations on one theme.

I find that if you step back and look at the technique, it is very similar in mechanics to Crash of the Eagle. Obviously it finishes differently, but the initial survival of the assault is very similar with stepping, turning, and clearing the guy's hands off you. However, I kind of like Crash of the Eagle's clearing technique a bit better. Circling the elbow high to crash down on his arms and make the clear seems a bit more effective to me, than an outward block. Maybe they arguably are about equal, it's just preference.

I kind of look at these as variations on one theme.

Opening Cowl would be the War Art, Crash of the Eagle is more of a push/pull. I agree, variations on a theme.

BTW, were you taught to break the arm with the initial movement of OtC?

BTW, were you taught to break the arm with the initial movement of OtC?

I don't recall it that way, but the elbow is clearly open to be attacked.

Chinese L Choke takes OtC a step further and adds the elbow attack at the end. Either break it, or make the arm bar.

Again, another variation on the theme, just starts stepping back instead of forward and adjusting the initial strike for the close range.

I don't recall it that way, but the elbow is clearly open to be attacked.

Chinese L Choke takes OtC a step further and adds the elbow attack at the end. Either break it, or make the arm bar.

Again, another variation on the theme, just starts stepping back instead of forward and adjusting the initial strike for the close range.

Yes, actually, if you lose the arm on CLC, then OC, with the strikes, is the follow-up.

Just curious if anyone has done either technique with a rising block to the armpit? What do you have then? :)

Just curious if anyone has done either technique with a rising block to the armpit? What do you have then? :)

Not sure I'm following you...care to elaborate?

A smelly arm? :)

Not sure I'm following you...care to elaborate?

Just curious as to what you think about new targeting possibilities and what "new" weapons you could see using... Maybe a throw? Maybe a right knee strike to the left outer thigh and how would that change things? I just like to, on occasion, let my mind run amok with little changes and how they affect the base technique ... Outcomes, I guess is what I'm after. Want to see if anyone has bothered to change things on base techniques and what the differences were. It's all a part of growing and changing in the arts ...

:angel:

Not that I have any relevance to the technique discussion - but I do like a middle finger fist to the armpit nerves to jolt someone's system. :)

Not that I have any relevance to the technique discussion - but I do like a middle finger fist to the armpit nerves to jolt someone's system. :)

OKay... So, then ... How do you get there in this circumstance?

I have used the elbow and an outward block for the first move. Being taller than most opponents, I mave also take the elbow up ad over the left arm and come down diagonally on the elbow (or the outward block move more like a downward diagonal. This helps me put the attacker in a "netter position".

Great thread so far.

Not that I have any relevance to the technique discussion - but I do like a middle finger fist to the armpit nerves to jolt someone's system. :)
Soon as I find a technique description so I can formulate a how to get there I'll let ya know. I was just responding to the target=armpit idea.

Another variation I found...

OPENING COWL (AB) - TWO HAND REAR CHOKE

A - Cross the right foot over the left to a soft bow to 11:00. Drive the left against the outside of the opponent's left grabbing arm to block the arm off of the neck. Pivot to the rear into a left hard bow to face the opponent as you drive a right reverse punch to the ribs. The left arm continues to cover the centerline (L punch). Drive a left corkscrew punch to the opponent's right temple followed by a right reverse punch to the groin.
B - Dancer left behind the right to a 45 degree angle to the outside of the opponent's right leg, the left arm comes up to block. Turn to a hard bow to the left as the left arm blocks and the right arm does an elbow to the ribs.

Opening Cowl would be the War Art, Crash of the Eagle is more of a push/pull. I agree, variations on a theme.

BTW, were you taught to break the arm with the initial movement of OtC?


Hey Dave, could you clarify what you mean by The War Art? thx.

Hey Dave, could you clarify what you mean by The War Art? thx.


I am not Dave, but I will give you my take on The War Art (you can also visit the Tracy Website and go to the page about the Black Gi's). The War Art was the street fighting or the hardcore combat. As opposed to the study of an ancient traditional martial arts with circular motions. It involves hard linear strikes.

Some also use it to distinguish between combat and sport karate or martial arts. Cobat being "The War Art".

Just my two cents.

ah-ha. Interesting idea. I kind of feel the circular has a lot to offer, and can even be more effective in the long run. I wonder why linear is considered "stronger", or maybe its just easier to be effective with linear, while circular takes more time and study...

Some more on the "War Art" subject...

http://www.martial-arts-info.com/117/kempo/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Kwai_Sun_Chow

Hey Dave, could you clarify what you mean by The War Art? thx.

Strictly speaking, for a technique to fall into the "war art" category, it must incapacitate the opponent within the first two movements. If it does not, then it is defined by what it does within those movements as either a joint lock or strike, or a push/pull. There is overlap and grayed lines, because any of these concepts can be applied within the framework of just about any technique.

So, because Opening Cowl is designed to break the arm on the first move, it is a war art. But, it strikes the joint, so done a bit softer, you may change the classification. Or, on the turn, you may execute the strike to the elbow up higher towards the shoulder and use a right palm rather than a fist to shove the opponent, and now you have used a push/pull. In all three, the "technique" changes very little, but it's effect does.

Strictly speaking, for a technique to fall into the "war art" category, it must incapacitate the opponent within the first two movements. If it does not, then it is defined by what it does within those movements as either a joint lock or strike, or a push/pull. There is overlap and grayed lines, because any of these concepts can be applied within the framework of just about any technique.

So, because Opening Cowl is designed to break the arm on the first move, it is a war art. But, it strikes the joint, so done a bit softer, you may change the classification. Or, on the turn, you may execute the strike to the elbow up higher towards the shoulder and use a right palm rather than a fist to shove the opponent, and now you have used a push/pull. In all three, the "technique" changes very little, but it's effect does.


I learned something today. I guess it was good to get out of bed this morning!

Thanks Dave, i appreciate the explanation.

Meester Dan - shek yer email. :)

Meester Dan - shek yer email. :)

Got it! Thanks ... You make me proud! :lol:

How the blue monkey heck did I pull that off?

How the blue monkey heck did I pull that off?

Don't pull it off! That's probably exceedingly painful, and they may not be able to put it back!!!!!:lfao::lfao::lfao::lool::-offtopic:lol2::lol2:

So noted...I shall learn from your mistakes. :)

So noted...I shall learn from your mistakes. :)

Hey, inside jokes in public just ain't fair!

Hey, inside jokes in public just ain't fair!

No inside joke here... I zinged him, and the "kid" got lucky and got me one better... However, I have friends in high places... He'll never see the next one coming... Muwahahahahah%-}

Lucky for me I know a lot of high people in LOW places and I'm a big time knee checker and foot sweeper. :P