Is your cup too full?

[INDYFIGHTER]

I was playing with a black belt in a particular art this weekend. He has his own school and only teaches the one art. I come from a school that teaches several different arts and have learned from many of them. The techniques he showed me were useful techniques I'd learned before in my own school. However I soon realized that he believed he could rely on these techniques in any situation and I found that narrow minded. He instructed a female at the party on how to break a front choke. Push the finger into the throat to get the attacker loose and then grab the wrist for a arm bar to take the attacker to the ground. "Cool, what now?" she asked. That's it, you're done. No she's not. She just managed to take down a larger attacker but how long can she keep him there? In Kempo we learn to finish the attacker. We learn to break that arm, rake the eyes, drop knees into the ribcage. We learn the NEXT step. I tried to show him the hu bud. Explained it was just a flow drill to warm up and get focused but he had no intrest. If it wasn'this art, it wasn't worth learning. Do any of you find people so stuck on their art they refuse to open their mind to something different?

[Bigshadow]

I hope this doesn't turn into ANOTHER firey thread about "To Cross-train or not". :rolleyes: There are already hundreds on here.

Opening one's mind doesn't have to mean cross-training. Just like to be successful you don't actually have to sell Amway! :p

[Ping898]

I think sometimes that happens, especially to the people who have only ever trained in one art or have only even just seen their art demonstrated and are of the mind that their art is the best and only one worth the effort.
I think you are less likely to see that attitude in people who cross-train or are taught something like MMA that from my understanding of it (though I have no experience in it) seem to pull teaching from multiple systems.
I think that one of the ways you can combat the attitude if you are an instructor is to stop it before it even starts by trying to expose your students to other styles whether through your own teaching if you have experience or by having as many seminars as you can to make it obvious there are other things out there that maybe aren't better than the style you train in, but that can compliment what you've learned.

[chris_มวยไทย]

I was playing with a black belt in a particular art this weekend. He has his own school and only teaches the one art. I come from a school that teaches several different arts and have learned from many of them. The techniques he showed me were useful techniques I'd learned before in my own school. However I soon realized that he believed he could rely on these techniques in any situation and I found that narrow minded. He instructed a female at the party on how to break a front choke. Push the finger into the throat to get the attacker loose and then grab the wrist for a arm bar to take the attacker to the ground. "Cool, what now?" she asked. That's it, you're done. No she's not. She just managed to take down a larger attacker but how long can she keep him there? In Kempo we learn to finish the attacker. We learn to break that arm, rake the eyes, drop knees into the ribcage. We learn the NEXT step. I tried to show him the hu bud. Explained it was just a flow drill to warm up and get focused but he had no intrest. If it wasn'this art, it wasn't worth learning. Do any of you find people so stuck on their art they refuse to open their mind to something different?


my freind was once talking to a karate practitioner and he asked him what art he did and my freind said "muay thai" and he replied "cheap!" and started insulting other arts , i hate when people do these things and always claim "their art is the best". being fair i would say muay thai is one of the best arts for self defence , this is not because i do it , its other way around , i did muay thai because its good self defence (1 of many reasons). however i would admit that there are other better forms of self defence (bjj , krav maga imo) , so i wouldent say im too stuck on my own art i just accept its bad and good points , and i also love learning techniques from other arts as i believe this is how to get rid of those "bad points" tht all arts have

[Carol]

I'm not sure if it's the mindset of the person, or the situation.

The BB may be closed-minded, certainly. At the same time, it may be that he prefers to learn in more formal constraints.

* counting the arts listed in my profile *

Umm....I have nothing against cross-training, personally. But ultimately, I believe the instructor is more important than the art. As a result, I'm extremely picky about who I chose to learn from..

[searcher]

But ultimately, I believe the instructor is more important than the art. As a result, I'm extremely picky about who I chose to learn from..

Amen to that.

It could be that the female that the BB was teaching did not need anymore to digest at that time. We should be asking the BB if that is all he would teach in that situation or if there is more for the advanced student to learn. I cannot count the times I have had students ask, "What if this happens and the technique does not work?" To me this is the student thinking they are going to fail and they need a contingency plan for their failure to make the technique not work. Now I understand that not all techniques will work, but how do they know when they are just learning it and have not tried it out yet? They don't know. It is like a newborn jumping up and running, because they think that crawling will not work in the first place. JMHO.

[Ping898]

But ultimately, I believe the instructor is more important than the art. As a result, I'm extremely picky about who I chose to learn from..

I completely agree with that!

[Kraiguar]

Remember, "don't be like the man at the bottom of the well who when looking up at the sky thinks that portion of the sky he sees is all there really is to heaven". GGMEP.

Peace and Blessings,
Kraiguar

[INDYFIGHTER]

I agree with the intsructor is more important than the art as well. I don't look at their rank but at their skills and ability to teach what they know to me. The instructor I was messing with I could tell is a good teacher of his art. Like I said I'd learned the techniques before from one of my own instructors and this guy did a little better job explaining the mechanics of the moves to me. I'm sure he knows his art inside and out. I never once tried to put his style down just share some of my own with him.

[Robert Lee]

Some people stick to 1 art. Some try several. Others just learn. The cup is not full unless you say your art is better then your cup is to full. Far as Kenpo Or another art. Only the person can get it working. Fars as a good intsructor. A good instructor will know just a small set will not stop a real fight most often. But he may teach you these small sets as a branch of the tree Then you have to know what to do when the time comes. As this maybe how it was taught to him. To say this is all you will need that is not a full cup but a cup that was filled with air more or less under trained or to blindly taught by less of an instructor. But If you ever noticed in the past When a certion art was getting stronger in being taught here in the U S A much was said about 1 strike kills And when instructors were introduced from that country they were the masters. Even if an American was of higher rank. What I am saying it is faslse ego sometimes that gets in the way.

[still learning]

Hello, I too started in one art.....when you train in others....you will realize so much more you can learn.

There is always more than one way to do the same things! and the same punch or kick will not always end a fight.

Find a school that lets you be more creative in learning.....Aloha

[swiftpete]

I would never try and show off my martial arts stuff to impress a woman at a party. I just think that sort of thing is a bit lame, although i do know people who would. 'Hey, check out my moves!'

[exile]

He instructed a female at the party on how to break a front choke. Push the finger into the throat to get the attacker loose and then grab the wrist for a arm bar to take the attacker to the ground. "Cool, what now?" she asked. That's it, you're done.

This passage contains what seems to me the heart of the problem. It's not a question of cross-training or mixed arts or any of that, I don't think. Every MA out there is designed to terminate a physical conflict. Whatever art the guy you're talking about practices, I have a hard time believing it has no finishing techniques in it. He many not have been interested in how a kenpo practitioner would do it, but in the situation you describe, I have a hard time picturing the founder of any MA saying that the conflict was over. Clearly, if she releases the arm bar, the guy gets up again. Whoever created or synthesized this art had to have known that in such cases, you have to shut the attacker all the way down, and would have built techniques to do just that into the curriculum of the art.

So the relevant question about this chap you've mentioned is, how could he get to BB without knowing what finishing techniques his own art makes available in that situation? Does he really not know? Or did he just not want to teach her that at that point? If it was the former, his knowledge of his own art is almost certainly incomplete. If the latter, well, that's what he was thinking... but I wouldn't draw any conclusions about single-art mastery vs. cross training from this episode, you know?

[Keikai]

I would have thought that ending to the "arm bar" technique would be obvious. You break the elbow. Locking techniqes are duel purpose - you can control via pain or you can break, smash, dislocate or crush the joint. Locks are always on joints. The choice is up to the defender and the actions of the attacker. At the very least it will rob the attacker of at least one limb to attack with should they wish to pursue the fight.
If the lock is applied correctly it is all too often the finish in itself. You don't have to use punches, kicks etc to finish an attacker.

Greg Palmer

Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu

[Hand Sword]

You mean, there's still more I have to learn?

Anyway, Yes! People are still stuck on their arts/styles. Look at some of the posts here on Martial Talk. Their ways are the ways, and their styles are the styles. Not everyone, mind you, but, enough.

[charyuop]

It happened to me right today and it seems the same thing that that BB did...I exactly did the same (no I am not BB, maybe not even white LOL).

I was talking to a coworker who does Aikido and I told him about these video I have seen on Youtube about some fingers lock to come out from a grab. So he jokingly wanted to show me the famous (I guess Steven Seagal made it so famous in one of his movies) counter attack on a grabbin the same hand wrist (right hand grabs opponent's right wrist). I hope you all know what I am talking about...I said yes I know it and he stopped, so I told him no go ahead and mean it, don't be afraid. He covered my hand again and as soon as he started twisting my wrist I stepped forward with an elbow strike. As soon as he was bounced back releasing pressure from my wrist I placed my other hand in the inside of his elbow and with the other hand I grabbed his wrist doing so I showed him that if I just applied a little pressure he would have gone down. No need to get him down and show what I could or could not do when he was down.

Now, as for the BB the move stops there, there is no need to show what happens after, what if the opponent does this or what is that happens...for that the girl needs to go to school and learn it with deep studying. The BB showed a move and the move ended there...period!

As per cross-training, I agree it is good for competitions, but as a self-defence goal any MA will do the job. Some people prefere learning deeply one art and they are happy with that.

[MJS]

I was playing with a black belt in a particular art this weekend. He has his own school and only teaches the one art. I come from a school that teaches several different arts and have learned from many of them. The techniques he showed me were useful techniques I'd learned before in my own school. However I soon realized that he believed he could rely on these techniques in any situation and I found that narrow minded. He instructed a female at the party on how to break a front choke. Push the finger into the throat to get the attacker loose and then grab the wrist for a arm bar to take the attacker to the ground. "Cool, what now?" she asked. That's it, you're done. No she's not. She just managed to take down a larger attacker but how long can she keep him there? In Kempo we learn to finish the attacker. We learn to break that arm, rake the eyes, drop knees into the ribcage. We learn the NEXT step. I tried to show him the hu bud. Explained it was just a flow drill to warm up and get focused but he had no intrest. If it wasn'this art, it wasn't worth learning. Do any of you find people so stuck on their art they refuse to open their mind to something different?

We see this all the time. I'v had some Kenpoists even express the dislike for going outside the box, due to the fact that certain things were already there. While that may be the case, such as a knife or club disarm, certain aspects may not be looked at as indepth unless you look at an art that focuses on those weapons.

I don't believe that someone has to spend another X number of years learning a new art. This isn't a bad thing. I do it myself. However, I think that one can benefit from cross referencing another art. Simply working out with a student of another art, there can be a huge amount of material that can be gained.

Mike

[exile]

I would have thought that ending to the "arm bar" technique would be obvious. You break the elbow. Locking techniqes are duel purpose - you can control via pain or you can break, smash, dislocate or crush the joint. Locks are always on joints. The choice is up to the defender and the actions of the attacker. At the very least it will rob the attacker of at least one limb to attack with should they wish to pursue the fight.
If the lock is applied correctly it is all too often the finish in itself. You don't have to use punches, kicks etc to finish an attacker.

Greg Palmer

Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu

All this is true. But if the art involved was of the karate/TKD/kenpo/etc. branch of the MAs, the general strategy involved---for any conflict---would probably be a strike rather than a hyperextension to finish off the attacker.
A student in one of those arts would very likely wonder, once the lock was established and the attacker was down, what the best striking target would be that would still allow the defender to keep control of the attacker. It would be a reasonable question for a student in one of those arts to ask. In an art in which grappling moves are commonly used for the finish, probably not so reasonable, unless it were a pretty inexperienced student. In that case, he was probably saying to her, `try figuring it out yourself'. So it makes a difference which art it was... gonna tell us, Indyfighter? :wink1:

[Bigshadow]

Your cup is full when you think you have learned all there is to learn, regardless of whether you train in one art or many.

[INDYFIGHTER]

So it makes a difference which art it was... gonna tell us, Indyfighter? :wink1:


Since you asked.:) Aikido.

I've taken some Hopkido which is where I was first introduced to the techniques he showed me. I'm head of security in a bar so he was showing me some control techniques. He wasn't hitting on a girl at the party either, his wife was there. I'm not slamming the BB, he's a great guy. Alcohol was involved and we were just screwing around in the yard a bit. Again, I find the art very effective but it's not always easy to get ahold of an attackers arm or wrist when he's 50, 100lbs bigger and swinging at you. The conversation began when I told him I'd thrown one punch in my bar in two years and his reply was he'd never throw a punch. Being someone with some experience in real world application I just feel that what works and looks inpressive in the dojo isn't always affective on the street.

[exile]

Since you asked.:) Aikido.

I've taken some Hopkido which is where I was first introduced to the techniques he showed me. I'm head of security in a bar so he was showing me some control techniques. He wasn't hitting on a girl at the party either, his wife was there. I'm not slamming the BB, he's a great guy. Alcohol was involved and we were just screwing around in the yard a bit. Again, I find the art very effective but it's not always easy to get ahold of an attackers arm or wrist when he's 50, 100lbs bigger and swinging at you. The conversation began when I told him I'd thrown one punch in my bar in two years and his reply was he'd never throw a punch. Being someone with some experience in real world application I just feel that what works and looks inpressive in the dojo isn't always affective on the street.

I agree... it's always got to be adapted. But this is kind of what you might expect---if it's Aikido, where things like locks are the bread-and-butter of the combat application, then he might well have been expecting her to know, from the nature of the art, just what to do at that point. I'd have been surprised, though, if it had Gojo-ryu or TKD that were involved, because their locks are usually forcing moves to set up a strike to an exposed vital area (throat, solar plexis, base of skull, groin)---not always, but it's much more common. So in those cases, yes, a bit more explanation---kick the guy here, or elbow him there and keep the control going---would sort of be expected.

So maybe it's not so much a matter of him having been exclusive about his art as not wanting to have to state what he figured should be obvious to a student who'd been doing Aikido for a while (e.g., `Well, now you break his arm, duh'), along the lines Keikei suggested earlier. He might have just been leaving it to her to figure out, kind of a teaching technique---`I'm not going to tell you, you should be able to work this out on your own' sort of thing.

[Rook]

It may also be that someone doesn't want to teach their finishing techniques at a party. Ussually they just show people a little of what they know to have a conversation, not instruct the whole martial art.

[exile]

It may also be that someone doesn't want to teach their finishing techniques at a party. Ussually they just show people a little of what they know to have a conversation, not instruct the whole martial art.


Yes, that's true too...

[CuongNhuka]

I hope this doesn't turn into ANOTHER firey thread about "To Cross-train or not". :rolleyes: There are already hundreds on here.

Opening one's mind doesn't have to mean cross-training. Just like to be successful you don't actually have to sell Amway! :p

i agree. besides hubud is fun.

[Ybot]

I was worked a little with an Aikidoka showing a bit of my martial art and him sharing his. One thing that he explained when we started was a philosophy of his art as related to him by his instructor. Basicly it was that by taking Aikido you are not only learning to defend your self, but also making a commitment not to hurt anyone else, including who ever attacks you. Nice philosophy, maybe unreasonable in real life, but a nice goal none the less. In this case, as an Aikidoka that may be the end. Hold the armbar, and don't let them go as long as their agressive. There would be no "finishing them off".

[TraditionalTKD]

And there is a difference between learning some techniques outside of your style that can be useful after you have advanced to a sufficient level, and learning several styles because you think one style is not enough. Each style has its own mindset, culture, philosophy, way of thinking etc. If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything.
Do one thing, but be the best at it.

[CuongNhuka]

I was worked a little with an Aikidoka showing a bit of my martial art and him sharing his. One thing that he explained when we started was a philosophy of his art as related to him by his instructor. Basicly it was that by taking Aikido you are not only learning to defend your self, but also making a commitment not to hurt anyone else, including who ever attacks you. Nice philosophy, maybe unreasonable in real life, but a nice goal none the less. In this case, as an Aikidoka that may be the end. Hold the armbar, and don't let them go as long as their agressive. There would be no "finishing them off".

Tue, but most of the locks of aikido are also extremely painful,if you are struggling. Meaning if you try to gert out of an aikidoka's kotegaishi, odds are either:
1 You'll wise up and stop
-OR-
2 You'll break your own wrist/elbow/dislocate your shoulder.

Either way, they don't really need an "end it" move.

[CuongNhuka]

And there is a difference between learning some techniques outside of your style that can be useful after you have advanced to a sufficient level, and learning several styles because you think one style is not enough. Each style has its own mindset, culture, philosophy, way of thinking etc. If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything.
Do one thing, but be the best at it.


BINGO!!!!!!!!!

o.k. toneing it down know. I'm glad there is anouther person saying it. Sometimes I feel like there is only a handful people that say that.

[exile]

Tue, but most of the locks of aikido are also extremely painful,if you are struggling. Meaning if you try to gert out of an aikidoka's kotegaishi, odds are either:
1 You'll wise up and stop
-OR-
2 You'll break your own wrist/elbow/dislocate your shoulder.

Either way, they don't really need an "end it" move.

Well... not necessarily. If your assailant decides that discretion is the better part of valor at that point and cools way down, probably not. But if you're dealing with someone who is likely to renew the attack after you release them, then...? The intent of the finishing move, however it's done, is to make it physically difficult or impossible for someone (who's already shown their capacity for aggressive violence) to try to restart the assault, at long enough for you to get outa there.

[Bigshadow]

Well... not necessarily. If your assailant decides that discretion is the better part of valor at that point and cools way down, probably not. But if you're dealing with someone who is likely to renew the attack after you release them, then...? The intent of the finishing move, however it's done, is to make it physically difficult or impossible for someone (who's already shown their capacity for aggressive violence) to try to restart the assault, at long enough for you to get outa there.

IMO, An "end it" move is relative. That is like try to describe where the sky begins and ends. In our art, we also may try to immobilize the attacker to give them the option to renegotiate the situation;), but again it is all relative to the attack they give (escalation of force). The harder they attack the harder they get punished. Any move could be the big "end it" move, including running.

[Touch Of Death]

Yes.

[Rook]

Tue, but most of the locks of aikido are also extremely painful,if you are struggling. Meaning if you try to gert out of an aikidoka's kotegaishi, odds are either:
1 You'll wise up and stop
-OR-
2 You'll break your own wrist/elbow/dislocate your shoulder.

Either way, they don't really need an "end it" move.

And what do will the attacker do AFTER his wrist, elbow or shoulder is broken? Fall over and die?

[Rook]

Perhaps my last comment came off unintentionally harsh. I meant to question whether a wrist or elbow break is really a guaranteed fight ender. I don't believe it is.

[matt.m]

I have earned my high brown in judo and have studied hapkido until I had to retire from it, I am staying strong in tae kwon do. I would have to say that I have a friend that is taking gracie jj. He is nagging at me to go with him.

I am being polite and telling him, "If I retired from hapkido and no longer compete in Judo for health reasons then why in the world would I try and participate in GJJ?" I personally don't think I would gain anything so I am a bit closed minded when he is trying to "Show" me stuff he is learning.

On the flip side I am encouraging him, I feel that you should study the art you want to study. My pet peeve if you will is when people say "I am a martial artist" when they never go to class.

[Keikai]

And what do will the attacker do AFTER his wrist, elbow or shoulder is broken? Fall over and die?

Having broken my wrist coming off a motor bike I ca say that I was not too interested in doing much of anything except concentrate on controlling the pain and stopping my wrist moving. Generally there is the shock factor to at least slow the attacker down. If they do try and attack again they will do so minus one limb to do anything with. You don't grab, punch or do much else with a broken joint in your arm. If they do the force "ain't" going to be much.

My Sensei trained ju jutsu and then trained Aikido under Mochizuki Minoru Sensei. de Jong Sensei agreed with the philosophy of Aikido and in a perfect world that would be nice however, he felt the real world was not yet ready for pure Aikido. He took the best that Aikido had to offer in terms of technique and used that to enhance his ju jutsu - hard finishes and all.

Greg Palmer

Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu

[Bigshadow]

Perhaps my last comment came off unintentionally harsh. I meant to question whether a wrist or elbow break is really a guaranteed fight ender. I don't believe it is.

That is a good question. My answer to it is... It might or might not be. It all depends on the attacker's will to do whatever it is they are trying to do.

Am sure we all have seen shows of actual footage where gun shots and knife stabs were not "end it" moves and others where a punch to the grill was the "end it" move.

IMO, I don't count on anything being something other than it is at *that* moment.

[INDYFIGHTER]

My Sensei trained ju jutsu and then trained Aikido under Mochizuki Minoru Sensei. de Jong Sensei agreed with the philosophy of Aikido and in a perfect world that would be nice however, he felt the real world was not yet ready for pure Aikido. He took the best that Aikido had to offer in terms of technique and used that to enhance his ju jutsu - hard finishes and all.

Greg Palmer

Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu

Agreed. Too much tradition and not enough application for me.

[searcher]

Perhaps my last comment came off unintentionally harsh. I meant to question whether a wrist or elbow break is really a guaranteed fight ender. I don't believe it is.


The answer to that is to whether or not they go to the ground in pain or if they close in to protect themselves. I also have seen multiple gun shots not put a guy down and I have seen a slap from a little girl put a man down. Varies by the situation. Even if you break the wrist it does not mean that your tool bag is empty. It does mean that they have one limb out of service and is one less you have to deal with. If they come back you break the other wrist and that is two down. What I am trying to get at is that pain can be a great fight ender or can at least impede the use of certain body parts.

[The Lorax]

My Sensei trained ju jutsu and then trained Aikido under Mochizuki Minoru Sensei. de Jong Sensei agreed with the philosophy of Aikido and in a perfect world that would be nice however, he felt the real world was not yet ready for pure Aikido. He took the best that Aikido had to offer in terms of technique and used that to enhance his ju jutsu - hard finishes and all.

I was taught that the philosophy of aikido was harmony. You blend with the attacker and any force they use against you circles back to them. It says nothing about not breaking them, if nescessary. We play nice in the dojo because if we dont, who will want to play with us again? We know the "hard finishes", it's essential that we do, most techniques are only an inch or two away from broken bones and anyone who doesnt know that will have a very unhappy future training partner.

An armbar may not end a fight, but it gives you a moment to try to de-esculate it, where many arts will go right to a crippling technique. Any aikidoka who knows what they're doing can go from an armbar to broken bones in seconds if they need to. But not all attackers are trying to kill you, sometimes it's just a friend who's had a rough night, who will very much appreciate his still-in-one-piece arm when he sobers up the next morning.

I'm all for learning new things that might be able to help you, but I'm not going to learn a whole new system. Aikido is where my heart is, and no other art will be able to work for me like aikido does. I would never be able to train in an art that has a total disregard for the health of the oponent. I'm still willing to learn the little things that may have been left out of my aikido training, I could use better punches and kicks, and I wouldnt mind borrowing a few techniques if I were to stumble upon them. You can call me close minded if you like, but I just cant find a reason to take up another art. There is always new things to learn within my own art, to take up another would mean(to me) that I have mastered aikido and found it lacking.

[Keikai]

Blending and harmony are integral to Tsutsumi ju jutsu techniques and we are very mindful of the need to be in control and to respect our training partners. But that is training and the danger in applying the taking care not to harm an attacker in the street is that they do not live by that code and will keep coming until they win.

Having said that we always train with the view that you do only what is necessary to win the confrontation and not beat the person into submission.

My sensei always said that the aim in martial arts "is not to win but rather not to lose". By that he meant win the fight but keep your humanity intact. Sensei trained from the time he was 7 until his death at 82 and he mastered ju jutsu and in time he added techniques from other arts including Aikido because he wanted the most efficient self defence system possible. In that he remained a perfect gentleman who could do very nasty things if required (he survived occupied Holland during WW II when he had to do things he did not like) and continued until the time of his death to look for ways to improve his technique and his art.

Greg Palmer

Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu

[TraditionalTKD]

BINGO!!!!!!!!!

o.k. toneing it down know. I'm glad there is anouther person saying it. Sometimes I feel like there is only a handful people that say that.


Yes, we do exist, but we are becoming a rare breed. We refuse to give in to the "study as many arts as you possibly can" mentality.
I respect other styles (mostly), but my art is Tae Kwon Do.