Yellow

[feintem]

Have a question I have heard that some so called kenpo schools do not have yellow belt material. Why? Personaly I like the the principals involved.









:
- Michael-



- If you can't do it right just look good doing it-

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by feintem

Have a question I have heard that some so called kenpo schools do not have yellow belt material. Why? Personaly I like the the principals involved.




:
- Michael-



- If you can't do it right just look good doing it-


Hi Michael,

Exactly what do you mean, what material (belt color) are these schools teaching the very beginner?
Before we switched to Ed Parker American Kenpo our school didn't use a yellow belt but had white, and red stripe then orange, orange stripe etc. but we still used all the Yellow belt material for the red stripe. We currently are totally EPAK and use Yellow belts in our school.

Respectfully,
Tess

[Kenpo Yahoo]

From what I understand, the yellow belt material was added in after quite a bit of the other belt levels were created. I think I read somewhere that it was actually intended to be children's material, but it later adopted as the "Yellow Belt Material" due to its basic nature and use of fundamental kenpo principles. If you stick around long enough, you'll hear some of the seniors talk about the different era's of kenpo and how certain people left at certain times only to continue teaching what they learned from that era. In otherwords they never adopted the new ideas that Mr. Parker continually generated. So quite possibly an instructor might have left before the creation, and subsequent adoption, of the yellow belt curriculum. Therefore they wouldn't bother teaching it, 'cause they don't know it.

I, personally, love the yellow belt curriculum. Its simple nature makes the first step into the realm of kenpo nice and easy. Later on when you refine your body mechanics you'll begin to see things in the "simple" techniques that you didn't see before. I can't tell you how many different methods and applications I've seen for the technique delayed sword. Each method of execution accomplishes a slightly different effect, allowing for more versatility in your techniques. What was it that Mr. Parker once said,"I'd rather have ten techniques that I can fight with, than 100 techniques that fight me." (I probably butchered the heck out of that, sorry). Alright I'll be quite now!!! :D

[WilliamTLear]

Kenpo Yahoo,

You hit the nail on the head. That is exactly where the Yellow Belt material came from (and why).

I'm also glad that you posted the value behind it as it pertains to every practitioner. Great Post!

Take Care,
Billy Lear

[Brother John]

Kenpo Yahoo did hit the nail on the head quite squarely! (I see it's getting to be a habit for him)

I feel that if we look at many of the curriculum differences that exist between different associations and/or schools is to take a look at slices of Kenpo history. Some schools/teachers you can tell didn't get as much of the newer material or concepts. In some schools you can find Kenpo Black Belts who have no idea what many of the principles that we hold dear are. NOW that doesn't mean that they can't apply... they often can, and that's what really counts in the end, but I feel that the art is better disseminted by using the teaching tools of principles and concepts.

I love the Yellow belt curriculum that we use in the AKKI!!! There's a great deal of depth to it, if we will but dig!
That's why the height of the Dragons fins (in our crest) are tipped in golden-yellow, the basics are what lead us to the summit.

Love out...
Your Brother
John

[practiceisnotperfect]

The yellow belt was a nice introduction into the Tracy sysetem for me. I gained confidence in my abilities right away. I think the key to understanding that they are meant for surprise attacks and they are very effective if executed with the fierceness of a tiger and the heart of a dragon. I still practice them along with my other techniques and find new applications each time. They work well in combinations with other techniques also My favorite is fang of the cobra conbined with knee of vengance, and falled up with the last half of sumo. I also agree with its not what you know but how well you know it, My humble opinion only. Salute.

[Blindside]

I just wanted to point out that the Tracy Yellow is different than the AK Yellow, course most of ya'll already knew that. :D Interestingly enough, the Tracy yellow was also a later add-in and some Tracy schools don't have it either.

Lamont

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by Brother John

I love the Yellow belt curriculum that we use in the AKKI!!! There's a great deal of depth to it, if we will but dig!
That's why the height of the Dragons fins (in our crest) are tipped in golden-yellow, the basics are what lead us to the summit.

Love out...
Your Brother
John

Interesting... The spine of the Dragon was yellow on the original Kenpo Crest... I think that it bears a true meaning in either case... It can be the back-bone of the art, or it can be the basic driving force (propulsion) of the art.

The UKS crest has yellow running down the spine of the Dragon like the original Kenpo Crest, but I think that yours has a legitimate meaning as well. It definately puts the original "idea" into a different context. How can you get some where if you never start moving?

Take Care,
Billy Lear :asian:
United Kenpo Systems

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear


Interesting... The UKS crest has yellow running down the spine of the Dragon like the original Kenpo Crest.



Yes, the UKS does have yellow running down the "entire spine" but that is "NOT" like the original Kenpo Crest.

The original only had Yellow on the 3 appendages of the dragon.

[WilliamTLear]

There is a nuance in history here. I was always led to believe that the original had yellow on the spine, but I hear from Mr. Conatser that this is not entirely true. The original crest had no yellow in the spine, and due to an error by a patch maker the yellow was put in accidentally not to far back in our Kenpo History. Therefore a slightly different crest popped up in our history. I was wrong, but apparently at no fault of my own. Never the less, I apologize.

When I was in the I.K.K.A. the crest I was exposed to looked like this:

[WilliamTLear]

For some reason the picture I tried to post didn't appear above... Here it is (I hope).

[Brother John]

Just wondering about the different associations, is the Yellow curriculum in most 10 in length or what?

Interesting to know.

Your Brother
John

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Brother John
Just wondering about the different associations, is the Yellow curriculum in most 10 in length or what? Interesting to know.
Your Brother, John

Well, the original IKKA Yellow Belt curriculum was 10, which is what I use and I think that is the norm but in todays world, anyone can do anything they want to. LOL so it wouldn't surprise me to see just 2 or 3 within some groups. (I tell ya .... all these new Grandmasters these days are so up on what is good and what is not that I've become sooooooooooo confused)
hee hee :rofl:

:asian:

[GouRonin]

That's ok Billy. When I was originally a mamber of the IKKA they sent me an original crest. When I renewed my membership a few years after the new crest is the one the sent. There are differences.

The original has all 4 of the 45 degree angles showing in the circle and the tiger and dragon look different aside fromt he spine of the dragon now being yellow as opposed to red. The tiger's tail also is changed. There are also slight positioning differences and also shape differences.

Pirate Kenpo baby! Woo!

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

it wouldn't surprise me to see just 2 or 3 within some groups.

There's only 4 techniques for our yellow belt, but they're not EPAK ones either, they start at orange belt.

Ian.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by satans.barber
There's only 4 techniques for our yellow belt, but they're not EPAK ones either, they start at orange belt.Ian.


What are they then if they are not EPAK?

What do you call your system, I thought you were Kenpo?

:asian:

[Michael Billings]

Another Yellow Belt tidbit.

In the 80's, I was told, I believe it was from Mr. Conatser, but it could have been Howard Silva, Tom Kelly Sr., or one of the other Seniors, that the Yellow Belt Chart was put together following the Web of Knowledge. That standing alone, it compromised a beginning Self-Defense course.

I liked this given that many of the techniques can be grafted together against combinations (Delayed Sword & Sword of Destruction) or a check can become a block/parry (Deflecting Hammer against a right kick followed by a right punch - your left hand check becomes a slap check or parry against the punch.)

Multiple attackers could be addressed by grafting two or more techniques together. Then you have blocking set, which can become a striking set, which then can become a breaking set. I personally like to address the contact manipulations available for each of the techniques also, but I do not do this at Yellow if the student is struggling with the material, rather we revisit it later on.

I started with the 24 technique charts and there was no Yellow. I do like it as the student has a reward for their efforts earlier in the curriculum.

Oos,
-Michael
UKS-Texas

[GouRonin]

Makes you wonder what would happen if a student only ever learned yellow belt material but practiced it daily as any other student might.

[Michael Billings]

There is something to be said for a philosophy like Mr. LaBounty's ... it is not the quantity of material alone, but the quality. "Practice does not make perfect, Perfect Practice makes perfect." Yet we all struggle on!
-MB

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

What are they then if they are not EPAK?

What do you call your system, I thought you were Kenpo?

:asian:

We are kenpo, after the 4 yellow belt techniques and the 4 orange belt techniques, all the other ones are EPAK ones (the purple belt ones are Clutching Feathera, Lone Kimono, Locking Horns etc. etc.).

Our system is oficially called Kempo Ryu Karate Kickboxing, cos it's cut down EPAK (no forms for instance) with some kickboxing drills mixed in.

My typed out techniques are here (in my own words, so they might not make sense!!):

http://www.satans.barber.btinternet.co.uk/files/techs.htm

You can see what the first 8 are like there. One of them is similar to Attacking Mace I think; I once made a thread called 'Identity Parade' asking if anyone recognised any of the others as modified EPAK ones, but nobody did. I think they were mostly just made by Phil to give begginer's a bit of variety and some solid principles.

He doesn't agree with having loads and loads of techniques to learn for lower belt gradings as, in his experience, it scares people away.

Let me know if I haven't explained all that clearly enough, it's complicated I know...! :)

Ian.

[Michael_Browne]

As I understand it, the Yellow Belt did not intitally exist. The system used to go from white to Orange. Yellow was added later down the line. As such, some schools teach the Yellow material, and some schools do not. This is some what evidenced by the web of knowledge in reference to attacks. There are not weapon attacks on the Orange Belt list while there are weapon attacks on the Yellow Belt list. I might be wrong, but that was the information relayed to me.

Michael Browne

[rmcrobertson]

Originally posted by GouRonin

Makes you wonder what would happen if a student only ever learned yellow belt material but practiced it daily as any other student might.

Dear Gooey...wait, Mr. Ronin:

I think it's pretty simple. They'd probably kill most martial artists. My understanding is, it's like what I was taught back some time ago about novels: in a great novel, everything's there on the first page. Problem is, you have trouble recognizing that everything was there on the first page, until you read the whole novel and its last page.

As far as I can tell, the only time I've intellectually impressed Larry tatum was the time he asked how I felt about my upcoming 2nd brown test, and I blurted out, "Pretty good. My yellow, orange and purple techniques are really starting to look like something."

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I think it's pretty simple. They'd probably kill most martial artists. My understanding is, it's like what I was taught back some time ago about novels: in a great novel, everything's there on the first page. Problem is, you have trouble recognizing that everything was there on the first page, until you read the whole novel and its last page.
As far as I can tell, the only time I've intellectually impressed Larry tatum was the time he asked how I felt about my upcoming 2nd brown test, and I blurted out, "Pretty good. My yellow, orange and purple techniques are really starting to look like something."

That was by far the smartest thing I have ever seen you post that did not make me want to slap you.
Congrats!
:rofl:

[Seig]

I make all of my students routinely go back and work their yellow belt techniques. During one of my weekly sparring classes, I pick ONE and work it all night, on each of them. Then I make them go back and re-examine the yellow techs for something they may not have seen before and to keep polishing the techs. The very fact that I can take any one of the yellow belt techniques and routinely apply it while sparring brown belts and continue to use it effectively just reaffirms the genius of the system we all love.

[GouRonin]

Why is it many Kenpo schools want to start teaching the techniques right away along with the basics? Is it student retention? Do they thing the students won't stay if they make them do basics till they get it right? I've seen instructors take students on their first day and start teaching Delayed Sword first thing.

What up wit dat?
:confused:

[WilliamTLear]

Basics are good, but the practitioner gets a better understanding of those basics when they are put together in a technique.

Don't get me wrong, I think the basics should be drilled hard, and regularly. I just think the student should be able to put some of it together early on, so that they can at least expereince a little bit of the road before they commit to traveling it.

You friend,
Billy Lear :asian:

[Nightingale]

delayed sword, and the other yellow techs, help give a "whole picture" view of the basics. It lets the student see further potential in what they're doing, and reinforces the idea that you don't just block and stop. Even if they don't have the skill yet to really make the tech work, it gives them something to strive for, and a little bit of kenpo philosophy. It is a way to start showing how things work together.

[GouRonin]

If a person can't execute a proper inward block what is the point of teaching them delayed sword?

[jaybacca72]

if systema beginners don't focus on basics only in a flow then why should you think kenpo to be any different,besides i have taught both ways with delayed sword on the first day and only basics,and i have found techniques taught right away to be the better for my students.
later
jay:D

[GouRonin]

I understand where you are coming from. I think we need to seperate business from art sometimes though but I get what you are saying.
:D

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by GouRonin

If a person can't execute a proper inward block what is the point of teaching them delayed sword?

because in learning the proper execution of delayed sword, they gain understanding about how an inward block is supposed to look and what it is supposed to accomplish, thus improving the inward block by adding more information and understanding to what the student has already.

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

because in learning the proper execution of delayed sword, they gain understanding about how an inward block is supposed to look and what it is supposed to accomplish, thus improving the inward block by adding more information and understanding to what the student has already.

You are correct nightingale8472. You have to teach application, so that the student can see it in action. Basics by themselves are good, but true mastery of the basics does stem from ones ability to put it together and make it work. Excellent Post!

Your Friend & Kenpo Brother,
Billy Lear :asian:

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
because in learning the proper execution of delayed sword, they gain understanding about how an inward block is supposed to look and what it is supposed to accomplish, thus improving the inward block by adding more information and understanding to what the student has already.

I agree that the next step on the ladder would be to teach the block in application. However I think they should learn the theory behind the block first, then put it into application. Having someone start off their first class with Delayed Sword seems to be a bit of the horse before the cart.

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by GouRonin

I agree that the next step on the ladder would be to teach the block in application. However I think they should learn the theory behind the block first, then put it into application. Having someone start off their first class with Delayed Sword seems to be a bit of the horse before the cart.

The horse did come before the cart. Doh!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[GouRonin]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Oh my gawd! That's hilarious! Thanx Billy. You're absolutely right. I got those two bass ackwards!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by GouRonin

Why is it many Kenpo schools want to start teaching the techniques right away along with the basics? Is it student retention? Do they thing the students won't stay if they make them do basics till they get it right? I've seen instructors take students on their first day and start teaching Delayed Sword first thing.

What up wit dat?
:confused:

Just because YOU cant handle ALL that much material in a lesson ........ does not mean that others cant.

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by GouRonin
If a person can't execute a proper inward block what is the point of teaching them delayed sword?

A ..... Duhhhhhhhhh.

Maybe the technique helps to teach the basics. It may depend upon perception and what your methods of instruction are... (and Yes I realize the handicap that you have Gou) hee hee

:asian:

[cdhall]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear

Basics are good, but the practitioner gets a better understanding of those basics when they are put together in a technique.

You friend,
Billy Lear :asian:

Give that man a cigar! :wink:

Gou, we teach Inward Block, Handsword, Horse, Bow, Attention, Neutral Bow, Front Snap kick (not necessarily in that order) and maybe some others (I don't often teach the intros right now) and then tie it all together with Delayed Sword so they can see how this works as a Self-Defense technique.

Sort of a light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe also an "See what you can learn, sign up now" thing, but I personally find it helps me to know what the big picture is, even if I don't get it right away.

And of course, this does not mean that we are finished drilling the Inward Block... but now on week 27... repetition 1035 they know that this Block was shown to have an application way back on Day one, that it is important, and that it may come in very handy later.

It is also possible that someone will come in and not get this in their first lesson and maybe not even by the time the Intro Lessons are done... it depends.

I think I beat the horse to death. Billy put it rather well.
:asian:

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Just because YOU cant handle ALL that much material in a lesson ........ does not mean that others cant. Yes I realize the handicap that you have Gou

Yes. I guess I am a retard.
:confused:


Originally posted by cdhall
we teach Inward Block, Handsword, Horse, Bow, Attention, Neutral Bow, Front Snap kick (not necessarily in that order) and maybe some others (I don't often teach the intros right now) and then tie it all together with Delayed Sword so they can see how this works as a Self-Defense technique.

All in the first lesson? Wow...I guess American Kenpoists must be advanced level genious people. After all, I'm not sure I could handle that much info in one lesson. After all, I have a handicap and all....
:shrug:

[Nightingale]

personally, I don't teach that much in a lesson. since my old studio didn't have yellow techs, I'd teach #1 orange, and only the components that went with it. (outward block, dragons strike, palmstrike)

And then we'd go over the front snap kick, because for some reason, when people start martial arts, they want to kick things.