Sparring Instructors

[rickster]

I was approached by another martial artist that his instructor does not spar his advanced students.
His reasoning is that he does not want them to get "hurt".
His instructor had sparred them in the beginning.
I'm looking for responses

[Kacey]

Y'know, it's really hard to say; it could be that the instructor doesn't want to look bad by losing; on the other hand, it's possible that, now that his senior students know enough to be dangerous, the instructor is afraid that they will trigger reflexes that will cause him to injure them. Or I could be totally wrong with both. Just on what you posted, it's really hard to say one way or the other.

[Drac]

I for one have NEVER seen or heard of a school where the Sensei,Teacher, Instructor etc...etc...did not spar with his senior students..In my old dojo Sensei sparred with EVERYONE...Sorry I'm no help...

[SFC JeffJ]

Sounds weird to me as well. Never came across that one before.

Jeff

[MBuzzy]

I am taking Karate on a military base in Korea and my Korean instructor does not spar....nor do his students spar. First off, the classes are generally not big enough and he doesn't feel comfortable sparring the lower belts. It is also a liability issue being here. He can't afford to have a student hurt.

The bad side of that is when I return to the states, no matter what rank I earn here, I will need a GREAT DEAL of practice at sparring. So his decision ends up hurting his students. I personally would love it if the instructor would spar with me - what better practice than against a 3 time Korean Heavyweight champion....

[still learning]

Hello, Sparring teaches many things of what works and don't. Next real thing to a actual fight without the killing blows.

One does not need to deliver life ending moves in sparring. Timeing, distance training,movement are part of the sparring moves.

It is liking going to a drive education class...but you cannot drive a car to practice.

Only your own teacher knows why NO sparring allow? ..could be insurance,liability, someone sue before because of injuries...

We are not allow boxing gloves for our training because of Insurance clause do not allow it.

We can use martial gloves and head gear and pad....and sparr!

Each school can make up there own rules.....Aloha

[Brandon Fisher]

I have a visual impairment and I spar with everyone from White to my senior ranking black belt who is a 3rd dan. Control is everything.

[MJS]

I was approached by another martial artist that his instructor does not spar his advanced students.
His reasoning is that he does not want them to get "hurt".
His instructor had sparred them in the beginning.
I'm looking for responses

Sparring, IMO, is certainly an important thing to do. The matches can be geared towards light, medium and heavy contact. Having and being able to exercise control is also a big part. Nobody says that the instructor has to use the students as a punching bag.

One thing to keep in mind. Minor injuries should be expected. I can't see someone being justified in getting upset with someone, be it the inst. or another sutdent, for a minor bump or bruise. Now, it'd be a different story if there was bad intent behind the injuries. Of course, the person heading up the ring should be in control of whats happening.

Mike

[Grenadier]

It can happen, although, for various reasons. Sometimes, the instructor simply gets old. Yes, there are plenty of 70+ year old folks who can still hit with the force of sledge hammers, but in terms of conditioning, they're not exactly on par with a 25 year old who runs 10 miles a day, etc.

Sometimes, it's for an insurance reason. Insurance companies that are ignorant about the martial arts often times put unnecessary burdens on a school that employs free sparring, and may very well prohibit the instructors from sparring with more advanced students. It sounds highly illogical, but when it comes to such comapnies, logic isn't necessarily their primary motivation. Sometimes they'll see the instructors as "deadly" and "dangerous" and not realize that the instructors are actually the safest people to spar.

Sometimes, there may be rules from the locality. As odd as it may seem, some areas may actually place restrictions. For example, the Tae Kwon Do organization where I went to college, has radically changed since I left there. When I was there, we would engage in regular point sparring, as well as full contact sparring (chest protectors and helmets) with the instructors as well. Sure, people would get some bruises, maybe a rare bloody nose, maybe limp around on a bruised leg for a few days, etc., but nobody ever went home crippled, and it was always in good sport.

Shortly after I left, the bleeding heart folks in charge of campus recreation dictated that the instructors were not allowed to do any kind of sparring on campus with the students, since this disrupted an academic environment. They made all of us who were instructors there, attend a seminar on how we had to promote the social environment of an academic institution.

Eventually, after two drunken students (who were NOT part of our organization, or any martial arts organization) got into a brouhaha on campus, the campus rec director took it one step further, and prohibited *all* sparring on campus, even sending a mole into the organization, to rat on us if we did free sparring.

The club simply disbanded, and everyone ended up going to one of the local schools. Another club has since formed, and if the participants want to spar, they must go off-campus on Saturdays to one of the local schools as well. Very few of their folks do this, since the sponsoring school is about 30 miles away. It's no surprise that they only have a dozen folks in the club these days, and the training is watered down.

[the pitbull]

3 ways to get better 1.spar2.spar3.spar

[Andrew Green]

Fear of loosing and a big ego.

If he is not able to spar people close to his level without "hurting them" he shouldn't be teaching.

No, he is trying to retain a certain image that in his mind would not stand up to getting beat by his students. And the longer the problem persists the worse it will get. Because after not sparring advanced people for this long, his fears will increase as he doubts his own abilities more and more and needs to cover up what he perceives as flaws.

I think a "good instructor", not neccessarily someone that is good and a instructor, would want his students to be able to beat him one day. Shows that he is doing a good job as an instructor.

[MJS]

Fear of loosing and a big ego.

If he is not able to spar people close to his level without "hurting them" he shouldn't be teaching.

No, he is trying to retain a certain image that in his mind would not stand up to getting beat by his students. And the longer the problem persists the worse it will get. Because after not sparring advanced people for this long, his fears will increase as he doubts his own abilities more and more and needs to cover up what he perceives as flaws.

I think a "good instructor", not neccessarily someone that is good and a instructor, would want his students to be able to beat him one day. Shows that he is doing a good job as an instructor.

I agree with this. I don't look at a sparring match as a win/lose situation, but instead, a learning situation. How can I make myself better? How can I make my students better? Thats what I like to work on during sparring. Everyone is going to have their good days and bad days.

[Shotochem]

I don't think its vital that you spar with your instructor as long as you get some good sparring time in with the senior belts.

I used to spar with my former Sensei on a regular basis then after a few years I hardly ever sparred him. I just figured that we tended to bang each other up too much and thought nothing of it.

Then one day after not sparring him for over 2 years he just sat evryone else down and the 2 of us sparred. It was nothing like the way we sparred in the past. His attacks were harder, faster more real than any other time I have sparred him. Any time I would get a good shot in he would just give a big smile and go harder. I never knew what I was capable of until that day. I blocked like I never blocked before, no hesitation, no thinking it just flowed.

20 minutes later we stopped exausted in a full sweat. There was no bow, no handshake this time, just a big smile and a hug. Then I understood. He only sparred me when he though I needed to see how much I had improved or to get out of a rut.

That one session changed me as a MA.

[Grenadier]

I think a "good instructor", not neccessarily someone that is good and a instructor, would want his students to be able to beat him one day. Shows that he is doing a good job as an instructor.

If anything, it's supposed to be a great joy (for everyone) with the student surpasses the teacher at something.

[Andrew Green]

I don't think its vital that you spar with your instructor as long as you get some good sparring time in with the senior belts.

Absolutely, a coach does not need to be a fighter. Try to picture Micky and Rocky going at it...

Anyways, it's the excuse that sets off the big warning IMO, "I would spar you guys, but geeze... I just don't want to hurt ya"

I call bull.

[Drac]

3 ways to get better 1.spar2.spar3.spar

true, true, true...

[Cirdan]

His reasoning is that he does not want them to get "hurt".


:bs1: If he can`t spar without hurting his students he lacks the proper level of control.

[Grenadier]

:bs1: If he can`t spar without hurting his students he lacks the proper level of control.



If anything, you have *less* to worry about, when your students advance in the ranks, since their control has gotten better over time.

[IcemanSK]

If anything, you have *less* to worry about, when your students advance in the ranks, since their control has gotten better over time.

This is very true. I'm more afraid of an unintended groin shot from a white belt (who thinks he can kick like Van Damme, but has the flexibilty of a pencil) than a seasoned student who can kick well.

[zDom]

:bs1: If he can`t spar without hurting his students he lacks the proper level of control.

I agree.

In regards to sparring advanced students, in my experience the most "dangerous" students to spar with are white belts as far as accidents go :)

Low kicks, kicks to the back, full power wild shots.. :rolleyes: and then the tendency to lean or turn face into what would have been a controlled technique if not for their spastic reaction :)

Red belts (last belt before black) are also usually not very fun for lower belts to spar with ;)

[Drac]

the tendency to lean or turn face into what would have been a controlled technique if not for their spastic reaction

That use to be a bad habit with me until a 3rd Brown rung my chimes once and I NEVER did it again....You don't get those corrective lessons without sparring someone better than you..My opinion...

[kanjc]

Have you suggested simple one step sparring? It is not as effective as light or full contact sparring but at least you get to react to an attack in different ways to find out what works and what doesn't. I think maybe that instructor has confidence issues. When we spar in our school we tend to do Iron man method, 1 person up and does 1 minute rounds with each person until you have gone through everyone including the instructors. Nothing gives you quite the same boost of confidence as scoring on a 2nd or 3rd Dan blackbelt when you are still a brown or red belt.

[swiftpete]

Most classes nowadays we spar with the instructor at the end for about 10 minutes. He takes everyone on at once. I always end up knackered after a while but he tends to still look alright. If we get one in on him he just laughs about it afterwards when we're done. Its only training you're all there for after all not competing for ego reasons. He says it what keeps him sharp and its good training for him too.
If you're teaching someone you should have the control not to really hurt them, if someone says that they can't spar cos they'd hurt people I'd tend to think he doesn't want to look bad by maybe getting hit and is just making excuses.

[rickster]

Thanks to all who responded. I havent been around for awhile.

[Zero]

As Still Learning and others said, it's all about control and about pre-agreed levels of intensity and contact so there is a consensus/understanding at what level the sparring session is at.

It sounds strange as a sifu/master should have the control himself even if pressed by skilled students and also, just as confusing, the senior students should also have enough experience and control themselves to avoid the teacher, or more likely themselves, getting hurt via excessive contact.

Accidents always will happen, but with control a lot of serious damage can be avoided.

I spent about two years training in WC alongside my karate to get some of its great ideas. Appreciate this is of course v. junior and not much time but due to my years of training in karate and other arts I used to spar after class and separately in the weekends with the sifu's most senior black shirt student. It would be quite freestyle as at times we would agree I would use karate and TKD, ie kicks at all heights. Other times we would use purely WC to spar in semi contact (I generally got served!). I thought this was beneficial to us both because when we started he was not at all excperienced in dealing with high kicks. Then the sifu put an end to this, I never really understood why (on reflection I probably do now), I tried to press him but he got quite angry. It took my heart out of the club as in the classes there was no unrestrcited sparring. I soon dropped it and focused on just karate and jujitsu again. This is no bag at all against WC, this is just an experience about how frustrating it can be for some students when they don't have an open(ish) forum to try their skills on peers and more advanced practitioners.

I have always found that sparring against your sensei is the best way to find (and eliminate) your sloppy aspects/weaknesses and what could be better for preparing you for competition or real life?

[Big Don]

Absolutely, a coach does not need to be a fighter. Try to picture Micky and Rocky going at it...


Brilliant.

[James Kovacich]

All good posts. I think sparring is greatly misunderstood. But the most damaging is thinking sparring is a good reflection of their martial art as we most often see it dos not look much like what we practice.

Sparring dos work many attributes that we don't get in our other class training but at the same time it isn't real either. I train with an elderly instructor (70 yo) and I hope I move that well at that age.

Could I spar him, yes, would I no, atleast not realistically. There are many reasons why not to spar with students. Just take what you can from them while they are still available. Young or old, if your there, they have something to offer.

[Blade96]

sensei sparrs with brown and BB's in class to show us how to do stuff.

[Josh Oakley]

Is he part of an organization? When I was in an organization, I sparred with my students until my organization put the kaibosh on instructors sparring with students. And yes, it was for the purpose of maintaining the "sensei mystique". That never sat right with me.