Ok, this may be a weird one, :) but as an old school Treker, I've often wondered if there was a "Real World" idea or concept behind this thing. I've noticed that applying pressure to the area between the head and shoulder can cause a person pain, and tend to really annoy em, but, is there a martial idea behind it? or application?

:asian:

Hi Kaith,

Although my Trekkie knowledge is serverly lacking ;)...

The point at the nape of the neck is called uko (in some arts). It is an agonizing point when struck or when pressure is applied correctly. A strike to that place can certainly knock someone unconscious (if solid and the angle is correct), but I'm not aware of it happening from a pinch.

Hope that helps some..

The back side of the body where the pinch is part of the fire meridian, the front side is metal. As for the pinch working I really have no idea.

But still, Live long and prosper.

I think you'll find that some Pekiti Tersia guys will use the neck to break down an opponent to his knees. Of course they're using the knife point to do so too.
:boing1:

Leonard Nimoy stated in an interview that he didn't feel that a pacifistic society would throw punches. (I'm summarizing here). So he improvised, and the famous "Vulcan Nerve/Neck Pinch" was born. While the Chinese knew about such areas of effect, most of the "Americans" (western civilization) wouldn't understand it for several decades later. I do not believe that any Martial concepts were used to develop it (I believe it was improv)

The fact that several different martial traditions happen to use nerve and pressure point concepts that deal with the same area is a total coincidence.


:asian:

I think most points of the human body can be improvised pressure points, meaning, if you know how to apply pressure to that point, you cause pain. It's really just a matter of understanding how to manipulate/handle/hit/pinch/etc the soft tissues, sometimes in conjunction with underlying bone. I'm not talking about the more esoteric stuff involving chi/ki meridians or anything. I'm just talking about causing pain :D

Cthulhu

BTW, that was a very interesting thing you posted about Nimoy, Kaith. Surprisingly valid point he made, too.

Cthulhu

Nani? (looks in mirror) nope, no ball cap here. :)

seriously, it does work great on annoying little nephews. :)

Ball cap? Ball cap? I think I missed something.

Cthulhu

Hehehe -Keil- mentioned Nimoy....

He He He....we look so much alike. :)

My bad! It's the K.R. initials, dangit! One of you has to change your name. How about Spastic Monkey Boy? :D

Cthulhu

Hmm....Hmmmm......

Nah.....I haven't had enough caffine yet.... :D

Caffiene is good, so very, very good. Yes indeed very good.

I seem to recall that there is a large nerve running near the shoulder/neck I belive it is the "vagus" branching from c-2, c-3? I am not postive but I woudl sau if I was to try a vulcan "neck pinch" (I have no idea why...) that is what I would shoot for.




Despair Bear

Does anyone have a good JPG of the"Chi" flow through that area?

:asian:

When I was about 10, my best friend and I were really into Star Trek and he would always try to do the Vulcan nerve pinch on me. It did hurt, but then I would grab my notebook and wack him in the face with it until he released the grip. Thanks for bringing back a fond and funny memory! Amazing how he would hold on thinking that eventually I would pass out as I hit him with the notebook multiple times (actually, I think it was one of those "Trapper Keepers.")

Bryan:D

for a rockin good time try Kino Mutai (art of pinching, biting and eye gouging of the 147 bite points on the body the trap muscles are on that list. Many can handle the pain of a pinch to that area if they train it enough. to counter that pinch less muscle and more skin for a pain response. if you bite it and rip not remove. you must have uninterupted biting from a deep gable type grip/clinchs this too much ? maybe too out there



I have to also say Keil. This is Jim. Sorry for my response man. wasn't thinking when I though I was. My bad.

Hey, Jim, that post seemed kind of disjointed to me. Could you clarify, particularly with the kino mutai?

Thanks,

Cthulhu

That's what I get for posting in a hurry. Kino Mutai. This is an art that focuses on biting, pinching and eye gouging. within this art there exists 147 bite points on the body (assuming maximum target effect. any area may be a target for this but the 147 are the best points with little user injury) There needs to be uninterupted biting, which really is ripping and tearing. to do so uninterupptedly you need to aquire specific positions and clinch/grip to bite/pinch/eye gouge without the opponents retaliation and to get the desired response from them. I only know of Dan Inosanto's students teaching this FMA art. specifically Paul Vunak to his Instructors. I know of no others. If any of you do please tell me. Acording to Dan he was the only one it could have ultimately come from.

Thanks for the clarification, Jim. I'm gonna hunt around online and see if kino mutai brings anything up. Probably just links to Vunak's site :)

Cthulhu

let me know what you find. I suspect it will be sparce

Okay, from the dozen or so articles I've found, half were written by Vunak. The others either referred to Vunak/PFS or to Inosanto.

Just as I figured :D

Cthulhu

According to Paul, Dan taught KM to two Instructors and the other Instructor never did anything with it. Paul ran with it and too from his training with Rickson to add the ground fighting positioning elements to it. As he taught us (PFS INstructors) we have incorporated ground work for KM. Great stuff. But the kind of thing you leave in the tool box last. Hard to explain to a judge why the other person's cheak is hanging from the side of his face. two fights ya know. first on the street and the second in court. You have to ask yourself though, is there anything you wouldn't do to save your family?????? this is where KM fits in

Originally posted by IFAJKD
According to Paul, Dan taught KM to two Instructors and the other Instructor never did anything with it.

From whom did Mr. inosanto learn it?

Roy Harris taught a little biting at a BJJ seminar in Mass. this spring. Kind of crazy stuff, taking a strong 100 kilo position, pinning the arms and turning the head away so he can't bite back, then really pinching the nipple with his teeth. He taught not to break the skin, just to cause extreme pain and a natural reaction of them pushing away. It creates the space to open up your groundfighting arsenal. :uzi:

Not really the sort of stuff I like to train, but interesting, nonetheless. Of course, as IFAJKD points out, Roy is one of Vunak's instructors.

I'm not sure where Dan got it from. He trained it a long time ago but never gave it to anyone until Paul. KM does involve ripping the skin. In a dril Paul did, he strapped a steak onto the lat area of a training partner and put a t shirt over it they then went to the ground and after a few seconds the steak looked like someone shot him with a shotgun. A less brutal approach is a nipple bite to release a clinch then pinning the arms and finnishing with a headbutt.

I will get the info from PV as to who gave it to Dan.

That's funny :) Can you imagine that training session?

"Okay, lift up your shirt so I can strap some beef to ya." :rofl:

Reminds me...tonight, while working on a sort of knife flow drill, I told my lower-ranked partner 'Okay, I'm going to stab you first.' Only in an MA class :D

Cthulhu

Never seen the Vulcan Neck Pinch work outside of Star Trek

I've seen a neck strike work though, that seemed to work.

Ive seen that done with the hand and even more effectivly with a pool cue.

pool cue. Nice technique if you're on the right end of it. Pool ball even better

Yeah that would work too

On a more serious note, there is not much taught in the UK on pressure points, well not much thats any good, the best practitioner I have found and his stuff works is Russel Stukely

He is affilliated to a US organisation called the Dragon Society International headed up by Rick Moneymaker and Tom Muncey, see if you can find a seminar, they have a lot.

I personally have never been toointo the whole pressure point training. At least not from a stand point of simply applying pressure. The majority of FMA arts would advocate hitting the area with a strike from an elbow or the like, (destructions) and obliterate the entire area rather than to strike a smaller point. Certainly there are strike points on the body and to take it a step further a place and way to hit that will get predictable responses allowing, again, predictable follow ups. This is as close to that as I have gotten. KM, and other points with ground fighting do well but those that really study pressure point attacks go much further than this.

Pressure points are neat to study, but I'd need to see an effective demonstration of them in a real fight situation, or at least simulated. A lot of them seem to be viable only if in an 'ideal' situation.

Please bear in mind, this is just observation from my very limited experience on the subject.

Cthulhu

I hear ya. why hit it with a tack hammer when you can drive it with a sledge hamer? Limited experience with it as I too have said but I still think there is too much "fluff" in MA.

have to train for a Bill Goldberg on PCP if ya know what I mean and I have a hard time thinking a presure point attack on someone like him would work. Mark Coleman or Carlos Newton for that matter.

Originally posted by IFAJKD
have to train for a Bill Goldberg on PCP if ya know what I mean

I'm not at all sure that I agree--does one want to study and prepare for the extreme case, or for the most likely case?

I do like what I think of as the Okinawan karate approach--people with broken bones are much less of a threat to you than people with all their bones intact--but not everyone is going to require that much damage to be stopped. I'm not sure that I want to train for a wrestler on PCP; I'm much more likely to be threatened by one or two muggers with knives and/or pistols, I should imagine, or an angered and unarmed or improvisationally-armed individual at work. For school-age kids, bullying scenarios may be the most likely.

Most arts have certain attacks in mind, I think, leading to a paper-scissors-rock contest when one art is paired off against another. Arnis constantly imagines the possibility of an attacker armed with a knife or stick; aikido has multiple attackers in mind; other arts are geared for groundfighting or for stand-up fighting. Classical jujitsu frequently assumes that one or both participants will be in light armor and that you must prevent your opponent from drawing his sword. These scenarios are built into the arts.

The Bill Goldberg on PCP was metaphorical. Meaning a "bad ass mean tough sob that will have a limited response to strikes due to a chemically enhanced activity they may have participated in prior to your unfortunate chance to "bump" into them.
In contrast, I do think there are arts that train for all of it. In JKD we do just that. In training for these kinds of people however, you train your mind to accept it as well. you train to utilize appropriate technique for the "fight" as well and you can turn it down but if you don't train for this type of situation you can never turn it up. You will never rise to the occassion but fall to your level of training. I train FMA not because of the potential of attack by a knife and definitly not a stick (maybe a weapon with stick attributes) but for the attributes of the movement that comes from those weapons. We train FMA within JKD because the ability to develop sensitivity and bladed motion from that is 50 times greater than if we do not. Yes it's practical in its application as well but it is ultimately, its the attributes that we all seek whether we know it or not. Having been in both extreme and more typical senarios, I can say that I will always "over train" if there is such a thing. Now ultimately If I do end up in such a situation I have found it almost always is extreme. The others I can manage and more often avoid very very easily.
What you end up dealing with is irrelevent if you train "correctly". and I do use that term carefully. Personally I don't care if stylistically the person is a wrestler, boxer, kickboxer, karate man, FMA man, armed or unarmed, street fighter or not. They will be what they will be and we can't pick. It has rarely been the style as much as the person. Great fighters in any art do not support the art as much as they confirm that they are simply great fighters. As such any style would work for them. It is however, their experience I learn and draw from. That is priceless.

there are several points in that area 2 that i know of that can cause paralasis and yes even death... and yes it would be possible to attack them from a "pinch" though it would take a great amount of force to do it... you might want to do some research into Eagle Claw Kung Fu and yes the infamous Dim Mak... another good book for the subject is the Bubishi

Originally posted by IFAJKD

have to train for a Bill Goldberg on PCP if ya know what I mean and I have a hard time thinking a presure point attack on someone like him would work. Mark Coleman or Carlos Newton for that matter.

Suprisingly, it would work better on one of those guys than on your average Joe Citizen. As the size of your muscles increase, so too does the area covered by a pressure point, and the point is closer to the surface, making them very accessable.

Also, to use pressure point strikes effectively, requires a knowledge of which direction to strike in, rather than any great strength. I have been knocked out in training with the lightest of taps, and yet with the kind of training I have been involved with, it is suprising that this was the first time I have ever been knocked out.

Now in the case of the aforementioned gentlemen, I would be the first to agree that if you used pressure point strikes, you would need to be real sure of your own ablilities.

They are a great tool, and if you get the chance to add them to your martial arts tool box, I would suggest you do so. They are not the be all, end all of self defense, but if you know how to use them, then they make a great option in certain circumstances.

--Dave

Originally posted by TLH3rdDan

there are several points in that area 2 that i know of that can cause paralasis and yes even death... and yes it would be possible to attack them from a "pinch" though it would take a great amount of force to do it... you might want to do some research into Eagle Claw Kung Fu and yes the infamous Dim Mak... another good book for the subject is the Bubishi I agree; the Bubishi Text, Advanced Dim Mak, Eagle Claw Chin Na are all good examples as well as Acupucture Theory! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

it works because Spock is strong from being on a planet with high gravity lol.

seriously, it does work great on annoying little nephews. :)
yeah......and dogs/cat....(not pit bulls or tigers)

Ok, this may be a weird one, :) but as an old school Treker, I've often wondered if there was a "Real World" idea or concept behind this thing. I've noticed that applying pressure to the area between the head and shoulder can cause a person pain, and tend to really annoy em, but, is there a martial idea behind it? or application?

:asian:

Any coincidences aside, Nimoy's said multiple times that he just yanked the move outta his hoo-ha because he didn't beleive that Spock would resort to physical violence.

(Though I do wonder what fighting discipline would reccommend a cross body splash like Kirk used in multiple attacker situations... Most of Kirk's moves seemed derived from pro wrestling.)

Trapezoid pinches are a little bit painful but they don't last long because by moving away from the pain the reciever of the pinch is reducing the power of the technique. This is a natural reaction.

Digging the thumb into the gap between the trapezoid and the clavicle makes it much more painful, and is more useful in eliciting the reaction.

The moving away from pain reaction is most useful when you have someone in an arm-behind-the-back lock (hammerlock?).

If you hold the receivers right arm behind his back with your left hand he will tend to get out of the lock by turning clockwise to face you. To prevent this you can secure the lock by threading the right hand under his elbow and holding his right shoulder. The lock exposes a pressure point on top of his shoulder blade - feel around on your shoulder with your arm up behind your back and you should find it. If he turns from the pain of the lock you grip the shoulder pressure point and push his right shoulder. If he turns anti-clockwise away from the pressure on his shoulder you crank the lock up a notch.

It is my belief that pressure point skills are best used with good standing grappling skills. Apart from the solar plexus, throat, chin-point, temples, ribs beneath the armpit, knees and base of the nose, trying to strike points in any truly competitive altercation is generally far beyond the ability of the average or even advanced striker.