Most of the Parker Kenpo schools that I have seen incorporate knife/weapons techs when the student is a brown belt, de minimus.

Are there any Kenpo lineages/schools that teach weapons at a significantly earlier stage?

I'm just curious. :asian:

Most of the Parker Kenpo schools that I have seen incorporate knife/weapons techs when the student is a brown belt, de minimus.

Are there any Kenpo lineages/schools that teach weapons at a significantly earlier stage?

I'm just curious. :asian:

we teach weapon defenses at a much earlier stage. In the adult and teen classes they are doing club defensese. or are you talking about techniques where you are training to fight with the knife or club.?
In Peace,
Jesse

Thanks for your input, Jesse. I was referring to a little of both. :)

Carol,

Most schools start at brown because that is the level at which the "weapon sets" start. But these days many of the schools teach SD techniques at lower belts.

-Wayne

Here's an article by Pete Kautz, of Alliance Martial Arts, on the "hidden" knife art in Kenpo.

http://alliancemartialarts.com/kenpolances.htm

Self-defense techniqes against clubs are taught in the first (yellow) belt of the American Kenpo cirriculum (e.g Checking the Storm). Knife and gun techs are taught much later, as previously mentioned.

In Shaolin kempo, at least where I train, we teach club and knife defenses starting at yellow, and gun defenses starting at Orange.

In the IKCA system, the first "Official" weapon defense is in Brown belt. However, I've found that in every system I've studied (exception was TKD - no real self defense techs in the style I was taught), with only slight modifications or a different point of view, quite a few techniques can be applied to defense against or to be used as a weaponry attack.

While noodling around with this thread, I did some searching for the book title he mentioned. Further, and apropos of absolutely nothing, I bet you wish you had kept any copy of Kajukenbo books you may have had. Pay attention to the last 4 or 5.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&y=0&kn=kajukenbo&x=0

While noodling around with this thread, I did some searching for the book title he mentioned. Further, and apropos of absolutely nothing, I bet you wish you had kept any copy of Kajukenbo books you may have had. Pay attention to the last 4 or 5.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&y=0&kn=kajukenbo&x=0

OMG!

Time to put my copy in plastic! Or maybe I'll just sell it, it really wasn't that great a book.

Lamont

In my Shaolin Kenpo classes, knife and club defenses are taught in every form (usually one of each in each form). Additional club defenses are taught at yellow belt and up.

My professor also taught Modern Arnis, which is a wonderful compliment to Kenpo.

Most of the Parker Kenpo schools that I have seen incorporate knife/weapons techs when the student is a brown belt, de minimus.

Are there any Kenpo lineages/schools that teach weapons at a significantly earlier stage?

I'm just curious. :asian:

Hi Carol. At my school, we teach club and blade information earlier than brown. Most in the way of coordination type sets, drills, a few simple techniques, we do a lot of stick work in the color belts including techniques. Advanced blade work is usually reserved until Green/Brown.

Sean

Carol -

I tend to look at it this way - we have been learning "weapons" techniques in Parker kenpo from the beginning, pretty much. I had a student ask me why we don't have more weapons techniques in the art, one time. I said, "They're ALL weapons techniques, if you think about it."

*blank look*

I picked up a pair of practice clubs and told him to throw a right roundhouse punch. I did 5 swords with the clubs. I told him to do a straight push, and I did Parting Wings with the clubs. Crashing Wings, Scraping Hoof even, LOL. Now give HIM the clubs, and try with him using clubs for the attacks. You have to modify some things here and there, but you would be surprised (or maybe not) how well they translate.

An interesting experiment if you haven't tried it.

Hi Carol. At my school, we teach club and blade information earlier than brown. Most in the way of coordination type sets, drills, a few simple techniques, we do a lot of stick work in the color belts including techniques. Advanced blade work is usually reserved until Green/Brown.

Sean

Thanks so much for your answer Sean :asian: Do you know if thats how AKKI schools normally train or is that more specific to your school? Just curious as I've never had a chance to train at a school in Mr. Mills lineage. :)

Carol -

I tend to look at it this way - we have been learning "weapons" techniques in Parker kenpo from the beginning, pretty much. I had a student ask me why we don't have more weapons techniques in the art, one time. I said, "They're ALL weapons techniques, if you think about it."

*blank look*

I picked up a pair of practice clubs and told him to throw a right roundhouse punch. I did 5 swords with the clubs. I told him to do a straight push, and I did Parting Wings with the clubs. Crashing Wings, Scraping Hoof even, LOL. Now give HIM the clubs, and try with him using clubs for the attacks. You have to modify some things here and there, but you would be surprised (or maybe not) how well they translate.

An interesting experiment if you haven't tried it.

That is interesting Matt. I haven't tried anything like that...it sounds worth doing! Fortunately I have a good collection of padded sticks :D

I picked up a pair of practice clubs and told him to throw a right roundhouse punch. I did 5 swords with the clubs. I told him to do a straight push, and I did Parting Wings with the clubs. Crashing Wings, Scraping Hoof even, LOL. Now give HIM the clubs, and try with him using clubs for the attacks. You have to modify some things here and there, but you would be surprised (or maybe not) how well they translate.

An interesting experiment if you haven't tried it.

Intriguing. I'd like to try these out with as many techs possible, and see how they can translate. Would Dance of Death be doable with clubs? **musing**

- Ceicei

In Kara-Ho Kempo students learn kata's with weapons fairly early, Bo, and Sai by blue belt... Defenses against weapons are also began at that rank-

I have "played" around with many of the early techniques in our system and they can be done with weapons... We learn Balisong (Butterfly Knife) and that translates especially well to the self defense techniques taught... (Not real practical since it would be a felony to carry one in CA. but very interesting!)

Great thread!

In my first style (Yasashii Do Martial Arts) we learned our first weapons form for students at Advanced Green Belt (Gokyu-Saijo), which was Gei Kisai modified to be done with the Sai. If you joined the demo team, you learned the form much sooner.

The Bo forms started at Advanced Purple (again exception for demo team members) and the Sword forms were in Black. All of our forms were expected to be done with the batons by Brown belt, and as you learned new forms you were expected to practice with the short stick (10") and the batons.

Joe Simonet, of http://www.kifightingconcepts.com says that kenpo is already the most comprehensive knife fighting system on the planet. You just need to put the knives in your hand and begin peeling back the layers.

I do think a little perspective from some more knife oriented arts would be a useful way to start.

Joe Simonet, of http://www.kifightingconcepts.com says that kenpo is already the most comprehensive knife fighting system on the planet. You just need to put the knives in your hand and begin peeling back the layers.

He's already started. See the picture here (http://www.kifightingconcepts.com/joseph_simonet.htm), where he appears to grab the blade with his own hand. That'll peel back some layers!

It was during this time that Simonet discovered Filipino Kali Escrima and Wing Chun Gung Fu. He also participated in many such seminars including, but not limited to, Jeet Kun Do (JKD), Savate, Tai Chi, Silat, Muay Thai, and Arnis. Thus KI Fighting Concepts emerged.

In the 1990's Mr. Simonet began his formal training in Pentjak Silat Tongkat Serak, Yang Style Tai Chi, and Doce Pares. Simonet is now an 8th degree black belt in Tracy's Kenpo Karate. He has attained 2nd degree level in Grand Master Cacoy Canete's Escrido. He also became Master Chris Petrilli's first black belt student, in 1998. Simonet has since attained 4th level black belt under Chris Petrilli in Doce Pares. He is a certified instructor in Yang Style Tai Chi under Dr. John Candea and a Guru with a 2nd degree black belt in Pentjak Silat Serak.
Mr. Simonet reached black sash level in Wing Chung Gung Fu during the late 1980's.

Sounds like he may have a little bit more than just Kenpo to draw from, then.

Pretty good mix of arts he has/is studying... That knife grabbing pic. does make me CRINGE however.

I see this guys ad's in IKF all the time---

Okinawan Kenpo under Seikichi Odo taught weapons from the getgo...

Thanks so much for your answer Sean :asian: Do you know if thats how AKKI schools normally train or is that more specific to your school? Just curious as I've never had a chance to train at a school in Mr. Mills lineage. :)

I believe you would find that to be the norm, and not the exception. At our Vegas camps, there are numerous color belts in the various club/knife seminars, I think most of our schools integrate at least some of the drills and sets, earlier than Brown Belt.

Sean

Has anyone commented that trains in Mr. Pick's lineage? I know he is strong with knife work but I don't know that much about him.

I have the tapes in question by Joe Simonet. Definately some great stuff. In addition to the blade, he also works the techs. with a stick as well.

As for the pic....I hope that he doesn't have a full grip on that! Not that grabbing the side is less risky, but I'm not one to put my hand around like that. I realize its a training blade but still.

Mike

As for the pic....I hope that he doesn't have a full grip on that! Not that grabbing the side is less risky, but I'm not one to put my hand around like that. I realize its a training blade but still.

Mike

I suppose when it is a situation that makes a difference between life and death, it may be necessary to sacrifice the hand.... :eek: I will if I need to, but hopefully, I can bring my skills up to the point that I may try avoiding the need to grip that way.

- Ceicei

I suppose when it is a situation that makes a difference between life and death, it may be necessary to sacrifice the hand.... :eek: I will if I need to, but hopefully, I can bring my skills up to the point that I may try avoiding the need to grip that way.

- Ceicei

I agree! There are a number of traps with the blade in the FMAs, and not all of them are putting the hand in a position like that.

Mike

You do see sword fighters pressing the back edge of a blade with the palm of their hand to trap it at times--e.g., cross blades and grab the back of your opponent's blade with a cupped grip or half-grip to pin it--but you don't really see it with a knife very often.

My particular school started defense techniques at yellow and first weapons form at blue. This is the adult class only. I'm not sure of the youth ranks.

In Cerio Kenpo, the adults start def against a knife/club/gun at yellow. The first weapon form is at 3rd kyu.

I suppose when it is a situation that makes a difference between life and death, it may be necessary to sacrifice the hand.... :eek: I will if I need to, but hopefully, I can bring my skills up to the point that I may try avoiding the need to grip that way.

- Ceicei

Hmm...maybe. If you sacrifice the hand but know that you will gain real control over the knife, or some other advantage, then OK. But it seems to me that you might just sacrifice the hand, get cut, and then get stabbed in the belly, and get your throat cut, and get stabbed in the kidney, etc.

If you grab the blade of a knife, I would think it would be easy for the knife wielder to simply twist and pull it out of your hand, giving you a severe cut, possibly severing tendons and rendering your hand useless. He then has the knife free for the next cut, or stab, and the next, and the next...

So if grabbing the blade and sacrificing the hand would prevent a stab to the belly, and give you another couple seconds to try and come up with something more decisive, I guess that makes some sense, rather than just stand there and take the stab to the belly in the first place. I'd say this approach should be deeply pondered in the safety of the dojo long before you face an attacker with a knife.

The only weapons we train with are the ones that the attacker (uke) uses like a fake knife or club, and we're to counter the attack(s). It'll be interesting when our instructor decides to use such "real" weapons as a hammer or whatever he finds in a tool box for use in our counter techniques or multiple "men" attacking.

Okinawan Kenpo under Seikichi Odo taught weapons from the getgo...



That's because there are(or is that were now) more weapon kata in the Ryukyu Hon Kenpo Kobujyitsu system than empty hand. Odo Seikichi Sensei actually introduced the weapons into Nakamura Sensei's Okinawa Kenpo. Most came from Matayoshi Shinko Sensei's Kobudo. He reportedly knew some Chinese sword forms and other weapons, but sadly if it's true he passed away before he was able to pass them on.

Has anyone commented that trains in Mr. Pick's lineage? I know he is strong with knife work but I don't know that much about him.

Greetings,
In the UKF we set the stage for the blade in the very first lesson. The entire process, from the very first lesson at white belt all the way to Black Belt and beyond to the advanced application of twin blades is connected and sequential in its unfolding. Consideration and application of weapon defense as well as multiple attackers are introduced and taught in the early belts including strategies in dealing with those threats. I bring the knife in as a visual tool in the first lesson. We have found that familiarization at an early level under strict supervision engages the mind in an attack the attack thought process that is required in dealing with todays threats. Understand however that we teach a set based system that is conducive to this learning process. The technique based system that is pervasive in Kenpo today does not allow for introduction of the blade in the early stages of learning. In my opinion to do so would create confusion in the student. It is not as simple as just putting a knife in your hand and doing techniques. Many of the principles taught through the memorization of the empty hand techniques, if adhered to with the blade, will produce severe injury to the practitioner. It is my opinion that the system that Senior Grand Master Edmund Parker created, current at the time of his death , although phenomenal and complete in it's empty hand application, could not support the blade. It wasn't until you were well into the gaseous stage of moving that you could start to explore the blade with confidence.

Marcus Buonfiglio
Universal Kenpo Federation