Here is the real critical issue in tai chi: shoes, socks, or bare feet. For some reason, the MA community shies away from confronting this question. Why? What are we afraid of? I don't want to be accused of starting a flame war, but here is another thing on my mind - the appalling state of clothing worn in tai chi classes. The top items worn in suburban tai chi classes are:
sweat pants
t-shirts with environmental slogans
ratty sweaters
black leggings
scruffy slippers
shorts on people who should look in the mirror before they leave the house

Why can't we have lovely uniforms like other martial artists?

Regards,

Mrs. Hubris Nimby

I've seen some tai chi classes that require uniforms. I think that
it stems from how much tai chi is being marketed as a form of
exercise, stress reduction, and relaxation. Heck, I even knew
one student who studied for a year, and didn't even realize it
was a martial art! :eek: Other things, like aerobics, yoga,
meditation classes don't require uniforms, and I think tai chi has
been lumped into these groups, more than it is associated with
martial arts. There's nothing wrong with that, the last article
I read about tai chi was how it's so popular among senior citizens
and has had a large impact on that community. That's one major
positive in my book! I'm not a senior citizen, but it's bee my
experience that those that "slow down" once they retire and
up being the only ones to get old.

Would the socks vs. bare feet discussion really start a flame war?
Are people that touchy on the subject? In my school, we're
allowed to wear socks, bare feet, or shoes. My instructor feels
that the chances of you getting into a situation where you're
forced to defend yourself while being bare foot is lower than
when you'd have shoes on.

Hey, Kirk - I'm not as funny as you, man. I was trying to make a joke. :D Actually, there are some tai chi chat boards where a flame war over socks vs. barefeet is within the realm of possibility, given the nature of some of the posters. My tai chi teacher is a big bruiser (sp?) of a guy. He is definitely into tai chi as a martial art. He teaches tai chi on all levels. He has classes specifically for the elderly, for stress reduction etc. But he also teaches tai chi as an MA. My pet peeve is that there is one guy in my class who does the form in bare feet. His feet sweat, and he makes squeaky noises as his feet rub against the floor. Truly, it is awful - like nails on a chalk board. I like socks best - can't do the form in shoes. If I'm ever attacked, I'll ask for a one minute grace period so that I can take off my shoes.

Heheheh .. great story, you had me laughing! I don't have any
problems with any footwear people at my school decide to wear,
but one guy who went barefoot had major athlete's foot, and I
just hated his foot coming anywhere near me!

Where abouts do you live? I looked high and low around here a
little over a year ago for a Tai Chi class that was more M.A.
focused, and couldn't find one!

So what are you classes like? How many are there, what do you
guys do in a typical class?
How much do you sweat?

I bought a pair of "Pine Tree" brand shoes and the soles fell off after two practices. After fixing that the leather has been really weak and is already about to wear thru in one place...

flat shoes make a huge difference though...

my opinion--- flat shoes, not just socks, barefoot is ok, tennis/running shoes can really screw you up...

Yo, Kirk! (Hi there, Crane! Thanks for stopping by. Sorry to be shouting over your head.) I live in the suburbs of NYC. It took me a long time to find a tai chi teacher with whom I could work. OK, this is going to be TMI, so those of you who don't care about the personal habits of Mrs. Hubris Nimby can just scroll. Oh my heck, it got real empty in here all of a sudden. Anyhoo, Kirk, to answer your question, I sweat more than anybody, man or woman, than you have ever seen in your life. (While I'm doing tai chi, that is. A lady never perspires - she just glows.) At first, while doing tai chi I got terrible flatulence. I never ate before tai chi class for fear of emptying the room. My teacher told me that the flatulence was a sign that the "tai chi was working." ) Fine, but what can it do for my stretch marks?) My teacher assured me that this situation would not last, and it didn't. But now I sweat like a ****ing stevedore. I have to bring a towel to class. OK, you can all come back. I'm finished.

ROFL! Thanks for sharing hubris! It's funny, I had the same
problem when I first started! I didn't know what the cause
was, cause .. well I'm a man, and enjoy letting them rip! ;)

Has anyone in your class tried martial arts shoes? They're the
most comfy thing you'll ever put on your feet, I can promise you
that!

My only exposure to TC has been what I've seen on TV, and in
the park with ONLY senior students and teacher. It was just like
on TV, just slow movements, like a slow form. Don't get me
wrong, I'm not knocking it ... in kenpo we're told "do it a thousand
times slow before you do it one time fast". But I'm also curious
about anything other than this that goes on in a Tai Chi class.

Kirk (Hi, again, Crane. Would you like a glass of ice tea or something? Don't mean to be rude.) Yeah, Kirk, like I was sayin' - I've heard that the "typical" tai chi student in my area is female and fifty. (I overheard a snide remark one night at class "female, fifty, divorced, with a lot of baggage." tsk tsk. Unkind and not true.) So people think that tai chi is an arthritis cure or an activity for middle aged dames to take them out of the shopping mall for a while. So unfair, these stereotypes! I've met some tai chi players (men) who would turn a push hands exercise into a fight to the death. Some of these guys can break boards. You do ken po? Fabulous. This gives me a chance to tell you a story about Mrs. Hubris Nimby and the ken po attacker. I was at a party, sipping a refreshing beverage, when some loudmouth "friend" of mine blabbed, "Oh! Mrs. Hubris Nimby over here does tai chi!" (It was a wierd party - lots of triatheletes, gym rats, and bar tenders.) So this fellah comes weaving over to me, clutching a longneck beer in one hand and starts ragging me about how tai chi was not a martial art and that you had to suffer, bleed, sweat, &c &c to be a real martial artist. I kept walking away from Mr. Ken Po (yield/yin - know what I'm sayin?) But he tracked me relentlessly. I wanted to say, "Look, either get drunk enough so you pass out on the floor and then I can walk over you, or stop drinking so that you can start acting like a sensible person." I'm not saying all ken po people are like this. It's only an anecdote, OK?

Doesn't really matter...shoes, socks, bare feet...but you should train in what you might find yourself wearing if you need to use your art...(No, not bad shorts or funky tee-shirts)...

A very good friend of mine who trained with me (and taught me) about 20 years ago, used to be hounded by a "person" who trained in ???ryu do...

They knew the same people so frequently bumped into each other at parties...one day this ???ryu do practitioner challenged my dear friend..."That internal boxing stuff is so much crap." (or something like that)..."show me what you got." Well after being yin for so many previous encounters, my friend chose to be yang and planted an "internal" kick in the guy's middle that launched him (legs parallell to the floor) over the back of a couch and PLANTED him in the wall...my friend paid for the repairs and the other guy left Jim alone after that.

:asian:
chufeng

huh-huh-huh, cool... Tai Chi rules...the glory of Tai Chi is that, after a while, if you need it it just pops out...

my girlfriend likes to push hands a lot and she didnt know how strong the Tai Cji really was until she through my butt across the room...I got up, rubbed my aching butt, and told her "Yep, thats the idea..."

and Hubris...think nothing of it...my first teacher was a 95 lb 75 year old Dutch woman who, if she couldnt evade my young male aggression, could soak up my attack like water and spit it right back in my face...that proved it to me...

klater

Excellent stories! Keep 'em coming! I'm undergoing a "tai chi crisis" and I don't know if I can continue any more. ("Yeah, see that? No matter what the topic is, it's always about Mrs. Hubris Nimby.") Right, thanks. I can read thoughts over the internet, so watch it. Where can you get those martial art shoes, crane? Right now I'm stuck at Embrace tiger return to the mountain because I CANNOT get my legs in the correct position - kwa is too tight. I do tai chi in socks, and I'm going to wind up on my bum one of these days due to the sock-slippage problem.

two words: naked taiji

I went to a fantastic Tai Chi seminar in New York City over the weekend. There was only one thing I didn't like about it - the floor. It was a filthy painted cement floor. Oh my heck! I wanted to bring my mop and all my cleaning supplies to class with me on Sunday after a day of standing and LYING DOWN ON that floor. You can take the girl out of the suburbs, but you can't take the suburbs out of the girl. Anyhoo, believe it or not the all important question of barefeet vs. socks vs. shoes actually came up at the seminar. (Thank the goddess!) Finally, a teacher who can unflinchingly face the really tough questions. When the student is ready, the teacher appears.

Originally posted by hubris

I went to a fantastic Tai Chi seminar in New York City over the weekend. There was only one thing I didn't like about it - the floor. It was a filthy painted cement floor. Oh my heck! I wanted to bring my mop and all my cleaning supplies to class with me on Sunday after a day of standing and LYING DOWN ON that floor.

I have a painted cement floor too and even though I clean it a few times a week, it still gets dirty. The problem... people wear their outdoor shoes to class. They bring in the grime and dirt that they complain about (although I don't often hear complaints).

Granted, though, the floor should have been at least cleaned before the seminar. I try to do that before all events anyways.

I chuckled, too, at your comment and thought back to all those martial arts movies where the students worked out outside in the dirt; dust clouds flying everywhere and they're just going about their business. The dirt will wash off, but the lessons will last forever.

Oh, and my preference... MA shoes for Tai Chi. Damn comfortable if you ask me.

WhiteBirch

Yeah, good points. Now here's another angle - pedicures & nail polish or the natural look? I realize that fuschia nail polish may seem kind of un-taichi-ish, but that's my favorite color. I always do tai chi in socks (unless I'm outdoors.) I noticed at the seminar that several barefooted women had nail polish on their toes - even the teacher. So now I feel that it is OK for me to have lovely feet. But maybe I'll switch to Mocha Mauve as a color. I love getting pedicures because I get a foot massage at the same time.

Once, a long time ago in a city far, far away, I began studying Yiliquan. At first we wore whatever we could get a hold of - some had white karate uniforms, some had the cheap-o thin cotton kung fu uniforms (with removable inner collar lining), some wore sweat pants. We wore what we had until we could get better.

Because the school's main training floor was carpeted, we wore the cotton soled Chinese shoes. These were difficult at first, as the brand new shoes were very slippery on the tight pile carpet. But, with time and training, the soles would get worn down from the friction of pressing against the floor while moving. Then, the shoes had great traction, and were excellent training tools. Yes, I said training tools! If your stance was incorrect while moving, and you attempted to root, you would slide across the floor like an ice skating champ. If your stances and steps were executed correctly, no worries.

Eventually, having a broken in, worn out pair of training shoes was something of a status symbol. The more worn out the sole, the more foot-forming the upper, the better off you were. Then there became the issue of what socks to wear! A few of our more adventurous students made their own collegiate fashion statements by regularly wearing plaid socks with their uniforms!

And speaking of uniforms, after a time we all had "regulation" kung fu uniforms, and there was never a moment when a "modified" uniform was allowed - if it was hot, you kept the jacket on and were told to punch faster to fan the air. ;)

Now, I wear a pair of authentic Chinese wu shu tennies (paid a whopping $10 for them at a martial arts supply shop in Seattle's Chinatown, and I am planning on going back to buy more!) when I am training in class officially, but I wear (in addition to the uniform) both regular street clothes and regular daily shoes when I train at home, and when I am training at a gym I wear my black judogi and bare feet.

All three "ensembles" have their merit, but the hippie enviro-psycho outfit should be done away with. All the students should have some semblance of uniformity, not so much to "stifle their individuality," but to link everyone into a group mentality while training.

Gambarimasu.

Gambarimasu.

Yiliquan - Thank you for your well written and thoughtful post. I agree with everything you said. I wanted to start a thread on "tai chi fashion" but I thought I'd get slammed by the tai chi community for being superficial. As far as I'm concerned, fashion is NOT superficial. You stated the case eloquently. Now where can I get a pair of those shoes? (I live in metro NY.) When I was in NYC last weekend at the tai chi seminar, I saw several people who were wearing shoes like you describe.

Don't hate me because I shop at Nordstroms.

;)

Regards,

Mrs. Hubris Nimby

Originally posted by hubris

Yeah, good points. Now here's another angle - pedicures & nail polish or the natural look? I realize that fuschia nail polish may seem kind of un-taichi-ish, but that's my favorite color. I always do tai chi in socks (unless I'm outdoors.) I noticed at the seminar that several barefooted women had nail polish on their toes - even the teacher. So now I feel that it is OK for me to have lovely feet.

Funny you should say something about this. I've often heard that one reason many women don't like martial arts classes was because they were required to go barefoot. They didn't want their smelly feet exposed to others for ridicule.

To me, it's all good. What you wear on your feet shouldn't impact the lessons taught as long as you're comfortable with it. And if you want your feet to look nice, go for it. I personally like the manicured look rather than the disgusting, swollen hang nails.

The only reason I request shoes is for better arch support, protection against getting your feet cut by something, and protection against viruses. I have had several people go barefoot with no problems in both Tai Chi and Kung Fu classes.

WhiteBirch

Hey, I'm just funnin' with ya. I happen to like to wear socks when I do tai chi, which is just as well because I'm very vain about my feet. It would be show off-y of me to do bare foot tai chi. I have beautiful feet and I don't care who sees them, or smells them. There is a show off-y type woman in my class who does the form in bare feet. I think she's the only one. Except for the one man who sometimes takes his socks off. I mentioned him before. He makes me crazy because his feet sweat and make a squeaky sound on the floor. I can't smell his feet, but I can hear them.

ok, aside from naked taiji, i wear wushu sneakers and kung fu pants, the only time when it seems beneficial to go barefoot would be on the grass or bare earth, i do that once in a great while. rubber soles neutralize the magnetic connection, so bare feet in direct contact to the ground is an easy way to synchronize yourself. at least that's my belief. :p

Rubber soled shoes are a good way of causing an accident. How can people do tai chi in running shoes? I guess outdoors on the grass may be OK, but on a floor indoors? No way. The friction and "gripping" these shoes cause would make it too hard to pivot correctly without pulling your knee out. I sometimes do tai chi outdoors on the grass in bare feet, but since I don't know what kind of pesticides they have been spraying all over everything, I have to get in the bathtub and scrub my feet off as soon as I come back inside.

If you are pivoting correctly (on the heel, not the ball of the foot) you won't hurt your knees, regardless of footwear.

:asian:
chufeng

also, the pivot foot is nearly always unweighted, so turning on the ball of the foot is alright too.

The method of movement I learned for Taiji stresses rotation on the heel... While this is just a kneejerk response, I can't off the top of my head think of any time in Taiji where the rotation comes off the ball of the foot...

Anyway...

i agree that the heel turns are most common, but i have had 2 instructors that interpret the first foot motion in the beijing short form with a ball turn, then holding the ball. also, doesnt pakua use some slight ball turns when you circle on an outside step, or do they use the heel also?

If your pivoting foot is unweighted, it really doesn't matter where the pivot is...
However, I believe that the power in T'aiJiQuan is derived from the pressing/corkscrewing action of the pivoting heel...that power is then transferred to the front leg through the "kwa."
If you are deriving the majority of your power from the kwa (seen in many Shaolin styles) and are pretty much 100% weighted on the front leg, the pivoting foot acts more as a brace than as a power generator...
I had one teacher who taught T'aiJiQuan with the 100% weighting in most of the postures...it is not how I practice it, today...I press the back heel down.

The majority of pivoting in BaGuaChang is on the heel...if one is stepping backward, after the weight is transferred to the back leg, the front foot may pivot on the ball of the foot.

I defer to Dennis Mace or my Sifu when it comes to specific questions regarding BaGua...

:asian:
chufeng

are either of them on this message board chufeng?

True, most times when pivoting on the heel the foot is unweighted, but for a beginner (me) sometimes you have trouble getting the leg totally empty. I tried pivotting one time on a carpet while wearing running shoes - ouch! Also I was taught (as posted above) that the movement comes from the kwa. (it involves releasing the hip joint also, no?) If you don't have all the pieces together yet, you're better off avoiding friction. (Rubber soles + carpet.) A better example of rubber soles causing problems is single whip. I almost pulled a muscle practicing sing whip in running shoes. I guess if you are a really good tai chi player, you can adapt to all kinds of situations. I certainly am not there yet!

Both Dennis and Sifu Starr have posted at various places on this board...

chufeng

Here's another issue - wet grass and sneakers. The other night before tai chi class, my teacher was talking to another student about how it is starting to get cold, and it is harder to do tai chi outside. Naturally, my ears pricked up when I heard important information being passed along from teacher to student! (MYOB, Mrs. Nimby!) I acted as if I was writing in my tai chi journal and listened to the teacher conversating. Anyhoo, my teacher said that in the form he does, you do spins (what form is that?) and that shoes + wet grass + spins = trouble. So you see? My topic is not so lame after all!

At the school I train at, we all have uniforms. Period. It keeps distractions to a minimum & shows student solidarity to learn, not make a fashion statement or political statement. Shoes are an option , but if they're worn, they're worn only on the floor or in the school. That way we don't track grime in on the practice floor from the parking lot.

As far as pivoting, so far in Taiji I pivot on the heel. I haven't been shown a reason to use the ball of the foot. In Bagua, when reversing the circle, the back foot may come up slightly on the ball of the foot but my front foot (where the major pivot occurs) is on the heel.


:)

I would like to wear uniforms. I think it's a good idea. My teacher does a spin kick thing in front of the class sometimes, for no reason at all. (Or if he has a reason, he hasn't shared it with the little grasshoppers in the class.) He might be bored, he might be antsy, he may feel like inspiring us - who can tell? From time to time he breaks boards in class, which livens things up quite a bit. My teacher can do tai chi in shoes, sandals, bare feet , socks, you name it! What a man!

Originally posted by hubris

Here's another issue - wet grass and sneakers. The other night before tai chi class, my teacher was talking to another student about how it is starting to get cold, and it is harder to do tai chi outside. ... Anyhoo, my teacher said that in the form he does, you do spins (what form is that?) and that shoes + wet grass + spins = trouble. So you see? My topic is not so lame after all!

In our training group here in Washington, we have the fortune to be able to practice in a semi-secluded park area... Nice and open, even ground (for the most part, though there are sections that make you have to pay attention, which overall makes it a wonderful training selection). However, since we get together in the early AM, the dew on the grass can be quite heavy. I soaked my shoes within the first 5 minutes the first day I joined the group!

However.

Wet grass, uneven ground, etc., are all wonderful training tools if you know what to look for... If your stances are done properly, wet grass or not, you will not slip or slide. Period. That is why we have particular stances in the first place - to provide stability and power when performing a given technique. If your stance is done improperly, prepare to do a Nancy Kerrigan across the training area...

can do tai chi in shoes, sandals, bare feet , socks, you name it! What a man!

You are easily impressed! You would really like training in our group then! At a recent seminar taught by our teacher, I went barefoot in my black judogi (just to be different). In normal training, I wear my black Chinese tennies... When I train at home, I wear flip flop sandals, heavier walking shoes... whatever.

Good Training!

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

Hey, I'm new at this, so I don't have a lot to offer in the way of conversation. I think it's important to practice in a variety of settings. With Halloween just around the corner, let me mention that a variety of costumes is equally as important. "Easily impressed?" I'm impressed that I can do single whip. It only took about a year to get it sort-of kind of down. Nancy Kerriogan - hee! I think Tonya Harding might be a better example, if you're going to bring weapons into it.

I always train in shoes. Only at the very begining I trained in barefeet purely as I couldn't find any suitable footwear, then I progressed onto the kung fu slippers which I don't think are very suitable, now I wear canvas shoes or ones similar to the TKD shoes.

I also pivot on the heel to close toes in bow step.

Oh dear God! The bare foot thing has caught on in my tai chi class! (Interestingly, only the men have taken it up.) It is so obnoxious to listen to their big sweaty "plates of meat" (feet) making horrible noises on the floor. It sounds like elephants farting, or whales singing. Also, the mens have taken to dressing all in black. What's up with this? One of the new students (who is very good, BTW) is Japanese. She says she already practices "ken bo." I asked if she meant "ken po" but she said no. She said "We fight each other with bamboo sticks - like dueling." Anybody know what she's talking about? And hurray for me! I'm up to diagonal single whip. But what the heck is going on with the men in black with the bare feet? Space aliens?

I hope no one has any verucas...yuk.....

Hey whats wrong with black? Our uniform was black it was nice...now its red and black...dynamic!!! :boing2:

Sounds like Kendo that the girl was refering to .......

Diagonal single whip eh!! What form are you studing? If Tradtional Yang you are already working your way through section 2 well done...thats no mean feet (pardon the pun :asian:

I think we need to look at where it all stems from. In old China, there were no formal training halls as we know them (still aren't) and most training was (and still is) conducted outdoors....so people wore shoes.

However, I DO like to start students training in bare feet becxause they get a better sense of feel and balance by doing so. Later, they may wear lightweight shoes, but of course- not for sparring practice!

As for uniforms - the Chinese just never adopted them and the current "kung-fu" uniform sold in supply companies is just a copy of old-fashioned Chinese streetwear. I think the idea of a standardized "uniform" in kung-fu schools is an absolute "must" and I insist that all of my student wear their uniform during training. It really DOES make a dramatioc difference in their attitudes and approach to training.

I took a weekend seminar at the Toaist Art Center in NYC a month ago. I'm going to paraphrase what the teacher said, but I'm sure I'll get it a bit wrong. She said that in ancient China there were people who practiced their tai chi in the court yard ("outside" tai chi.) But the students who learned the real deal practiced indoors. ("indoor" tai chi.) The teacher made the analogy that tai chi was a martial art. It doesn't make sense to teach all and sundry your military secrets. So, only the people that could be really trusted got to learn all the important stuff. So I guess you should learn to do tai chi in shoes. But I hate shoes, and I'm sticking with socks. The point of this anecdote is that tai chi IS a martial art.

taichifan - I' doing the Yang short form, so diagonal single whip is really no huge accomplishment. (Tho' for me, it's HUGE.) My teacher, who is great, is real strict about when he'll move you along in the form. We do lots of drills and we study the principals. We are expected to know the principals and explain how they are applied in each move. We do Chi Gung as a warm up before each class. We just had a one week break from tai chi classes, and I miss them.

I think one of the most important points about wearing good footwear when doing Taijiquan is to protect the yongquan point on the soles of the feet. And yes, in China there were no beautifully polished wood floors to practise on. Only courtyards and rough floored rooms. I think hygiene is another important reason to wear suitable footwear. I never stop anyone wishing to do taiji in bare feet, but I think it is connected to the new age school. When did you last see a Chinese do taiji in bare feet?

I'm fairly ambivalent about the uniform business. Yes it helps me sell T-shirts but I don't notice it improving my students form! Only good teaching and practise does that! But I have to agree that the feel good factor is important.

Regards

Hubris, do you mean Cheng Man-ching form?

<b>East</b> : High five on the hygeine issue. What's up with the mens in my class and their big smelly bare feet? The form I'm doing is Yang. I should know my teacher's lineage, but off the top of my head I don't. The Yang form he teaches is the same one in Terry Dunn's videos, and also the new video by Master C.K. Chu. We do chi gung and some nei gung in class as well.<br></br>You sell t-shirts? What kind? I'm always looking for new t-shirts. I wear then at the gym and at tai chi class. Because Mr. Nimby is a Rail Fan, I have dozens of train t-shirts. (You know, ones with train logos on them.) Trains t-shirts are better than the "save the whales" t-shirts, or the "support public tv" t-shirts, or by far the worst braggy, show-offy type "he-man triathalon Ankorage 1999" t-shirts one sees in the gym and in tai chi class.

Kindest regards,

Mrs. Hubris Nimby

Hubris,

Thanks for the reply. I think Terry Dunn teaches both Cheng Man-ching form and Yang long form. I have never seen him perform Taji but it would be interesting to see how he copes with the different body requirements in both forms, as they are quite different.

I sell T-shirts to my students with my school logo on them. Sorry no trains though. :rolleyes: That's my wife's department. She's a steam train enthusiast:D

Best wishes

Originally posted by East Winds

I never stop anyone wishing to do taiji in bare feet, but I think it is connected to the new age school. When did you last see a Chinese do taiji in bare feet?[/B

and

[B]I'm fairly ambivalent about the uniform business. Yes it helps me sell T-shirts but I don't notice it improving my students form! Only good teaching and practise does that! But I have to agree that the feel good factor is important.

East Winds -

First, in my experience, the entire Taiji / New Age connection has more to do with doing Taiji and qigong with no orientation whatsoever with the martial applications whatsoever than with what they wear - although a lot of them are tie dye t-shirt, billowy pants, bare foot hippie looking folks... :D

As for uniforms, what we have been referring to as a "uniform" is not just a t-shirt and some pants... In our school, even though we know it is just a recreation of antique street clothes, we wear the "Chinese Kung Fu Uniform." We have recently adopted the Japanese style fold over top and belt as our standard training uniform, with the Chinese style uniform as our "special event" uniform. We made this change because the Japanese style uniforms are far more durable, and the belt allows for proper breath training (and it stays tied a lot better than a sash, too).

Maybe you think t-shirts are fine for a uniform. We do a lot of chin na and shuai chiao, so they would never hold up for more than a class or two... That'd probably be good for sales, though! :D We mandate that the uniform is one of the above styles, and no variation in it is allowed - if it is hot, they stay in uniform; if it is cold, they stay in uniform. That nearly militant adherence to a uniform standard makes it a uniform, and they treat it as such.

Just FYI.

Gambarimasu.

Yes, Yiliquan1 is absolutely right. The reason the Japanese martial arts developed their well-known training uniforms was largely the durability factor. This is something which the Chinese have never really addressed.
Common street clothing (be it Chinese, American, or Armenian) simply will not hold up in rigorous training, especially when training with various shuai-jiao (grappling) techniques and the like. Over the years, many of my students had their "traditional" Chinese kung-fu uniform jackets ripped open in the front because of this.
So it leaves us with a clear choice. We can keep reparing our uniforms or clothing (or buying new ones), or adopt more rugged uniforms. In our system, we chose the latter and it works extremely well.
As for the question of wearing shoes, I still like to start students off barefoot when I can. They get the right "feel" of the stepping and kicking as well. If one does a kick incorrectly while barefoot, the student finds out about it very quickly as there is no protection on the foot...

Just to be clear - I'm the one who brought up t-shirts. (As worn in class.) Even if one wears a uniform while doing tai chi, perhaps one would enjoy wearing a tai chi t-shirt while not doing tai chi. But so many of the tai chi shirts I've seen are ugly, ugly, ugly.

have you seen the black and white "got qi?" shirts?
i think its a pretty neat idea.

Got one... I love wearing it.

I have also seen advertised on other websites shirts that say "Got Rice?", "Got Poi?", and other things...

My wife is Filipino, and I absoluely must get one that says "Got Adobo?"

T-shirts of varying styles are a huge plus for increasing school spirit, but it doesn't substitute for a good uniform.

t shirts/polo shirts are fine for a taiji class even in fairly active push hands doesn't do them any damage. It is still a uniform like the police force wearing ***** with short sleeves....it still a uniform. It does help to bond and unite the class. :D And I have seen my fair share of the tie dyed purple trousers brigade:erg:
I do agree that the Japanese style jackets are much more robust although I think the free style uniforms that pull over the head are even better for security......you don't spend as much time tying them back up or tucking them back into the belt.

Yiliquan1 and Yilisifu,

Good discussion. I have no problem if people want to wear a uniform of sorts and yes it can look very smart and effective. But I suspect that the Japanese developed a uniform because they were mainly practising external arts! It sounds like you guys use a lot of strength in your training. Whatever happened to 4 ounces can defelct 1000 pounds? :D Yes I also do Chin Na and full contact sparring with applications, but strength is a definite no no. :shrug: Taiji is an internal art and the emphasis must be on defence, unlike the external arts where the emphasis is on attack and the use of strength. How can you execute Fa Jing using strength? It's an oxymoron! The mind is the commander and the body is subserviant to it. If you use strength then you are not practicing taijiquan. You may be doing something that looks like taijiquan, but it will only be an illiusion.

Had a look at the Yiliquan website and was impressed with the traing programme.

Very Best wishes

East Winds,

You posted:
"But I suspect that the Japanese developed a uniform because they were mainly practising external arts! It sounds like you guys use a lot of strength in your training. Whatever happened to 4 ounces can defelct 1000 pounds?"

Our internal system is just that...
Brute strength is frowned upon...our strength comes from a relaxed body with a strong root (sound familiar?)...
Being centered and moving from center...extending qi by using yi...this is how we do what we do...I don't know where you came up with the idea that we "use a lot of strength."

The fact is, the "frog buttons" on Chinese style uniforms rip off quite easily...if I throw someone, and he grabs my Chinese uniform on the way down, I end up having to repair it...
The Japanese uniforms (regardless as to WHY they made them the way they did) are more durable...that is why we use them.

:asian:
chufeng

Originally posted by East Winds

Yiliquan1 and Yilisifu,

Good discussion. I have no problem if people want to wear a uniform of sorts and yes it can look very smart and effective. But I suspect that the Japanese developed a uniform because they were mainly practising external arts!

No, actually, they developed it simply because there was a need for a robust and durable set of clothing for use while training... Just like runners wear running shorts and shoes, just like wrestlers wear ear muff thingies, martial artists in Japan developed attire that catered to their training needs - exactly the reason we wear what we wear when we wear it.

It sounds like you guys use a lot of strength in your training. Whatever happened to 4 ounces can defelct 1000 pounds? :D

If four ounces of power are applied by a weakling, then the four ounces will be overcome by the 1000 pounds. If the four ounces have no strong stance, no strong root (both developed after strengthening the body through posture training, forms, standing, etc.) from which to originate, the 1000 ounds will roll right over the source of the four ounces...

Our striking power comes from the same source all internal martial arts striking power comes from - solid root, solid stance, proper body action and extension of yi and qi. However, with weak bodies, all the yi and qi in the world won't do squat...

Yes I also do Chin Na and full contact sparring with applications, but strength is a definite no no. :shrug:

Strength is a definite "no no" for what? Chin na? Shuai chiao? Hardly. Without sufficient strength to perform given movements, the movements will never be performed... I'm not saying you out muscle your opponent, but I will allow any limp armed 90 pounder to try to tear my hand away from their lapel with "just qi" any day. If I am grabbing their lapel, arm, hand, etc., with a purpose, they will need a certain degree of strength to cause the chin na to work in the first place.

Taiji is an internal art and the emphasis must be on defence, unlike the external arts where the emphasis is on attack and the use of strength.

Basic Yili doctrine - "Force is never overcome with force, nor is aggression overcome by aggression. Instead, force and aggression are turned back upon themselves."

How can you execute Fa Jing using strength? It's an oxymoron! The mind is the commander and the body is subserviant to it. If you use strength then you are not practicing taijiquan. You may be doing something that looks like taijiquan, but it will only be an illiusion.

Likewise, if you never develop strength in your arms nor your legs, and your body is limp and weak, you will never be able to apply anything you have learned... While IMAists don't go out of their way to develop strength (e.g. lifting weights), through all the myriad exercises included in typical IMA training, strength is developed.

The mind can command all it wants, but a weak body will still be unable to perform...

Had a look at the Yiliquan website and was impressed with the traing programme.

Very Best wishes

Thanks for the compliments. Best right back at ya.
:D

:asian:

Ys, the Japanese fold-over style jacket developed more due to a cultural influence. Whether one practices internal or external martial arts has absolutely nothing to do with it.
However, it should be borne in mind that the fold-over style jacket (such as is seen in Japanese martial arts nowadays) is actually an original Chinese design......
The standard "kung-fu" uniform is actually a reproduction of old Chinese streetwear which was NOT originally Chinese....it was introduced into China by the Manchus when they established the Ching Dynasty.

I think the point is that uniforms do much to enhance one's attitude towards training and one's school or club AND they are functional for training.

My feeling is that if a student "dresses casually" for class, that's the kind of attitude he'll often take towards training. Casual. If he is expected to wear a clean and sharp uniform, that's the kind of attitude he/she will carry into class; disciplined and ready to train.
One of my teachers once told me, "The condition of your training uniform reflects your attitude towards your training." After over four decades in the martial arts, I have found this to be very true.

Great posts here. I'm getting a lot of ideas from reading them. But back to the feet - personally I have a hard time feeling where I should be in the form if I where shoes. (I practice in socks.) This is not meant to sound "hippy dippy" especially since my teacher teaches the form as a martial art. ("If you expect to see auras, go somewhere else!) But I don't feel my connection to the earth with shoes on my feet. (Funny thing - I hate shoes anyway and take them off every chance I get!) I'm doing more chi gung now, and this is where I really notice the need to feel my feet on the floor. But I am a kinesthetic learner and have to learn by how my muscles feel.

Mrs. Hubris Nimby

Yiliquan - That is a great quote from Kumar Frantzis. Do you know him? I took a seminar from him in NYC a month ago and he blew me away. Too bad his books are not as good as Kumar is in person. I could listen to him for hours on end.

Mrs. Hubris Nimby

No, actually, they developed it simply because there was a need for a robust and durable set of clothing for use while training... Just like runners wear running shorts and shoes, just like wrestlers wear ear muff thingies, martial artists in Japan developed attire that catered to their training needs - exactly the reason we wear what we wear when we wear it. yes, beacuse they needed a robust out fit for an external art.....

Strength is a definite "no no" for what? Chin na? Shuai chiao? Hardly. Without sufficient strength to perform given movements, the movements will never be performed... I'm not saying you out muscle your opponent, but I will allow any limp armed 90 pounder to try to tear my hand away from their lapel with "just qi" any day. If I am grabbing their lapel, arm, hand, etc., with a purpose, they will need a certain degree of strength to cause the chin na to work in the first place. looks like people have different definitions of strength, are you referning to strength built up through the mobiliser muscles or the training of the postural muscles or the strength of will power or character.....for instance my taijiquan teacher is a small lady she's about 5.2" and weighs less than 7 stone, but when she drops an arm on you, she puts you through the floor, she has no apparent muscles, doesn't exert any external strength, but she very strong in her root, and understanding of biomechanics..........

hubris personally I have a hard time feeling where I should be in the form if I where shoes what do you mean by 'have a hard time feeling' where you should be in the form with shoes on? It took me while to find something comfortable to wear on my feet. I started off in bare feet, but the floors we used to train on were filthy, I then went onto the kung fu slippers....ok ish but not ideal, maybe they would do for you as a start, they are very light weight and broad. I went onto a pair of squash trainers after that and for the last 4 years I have worn lightweight canvas trainers that are fine.........

Taijifan -

yes, beacuse they needed a robust out fit for an external art.....

If that is your benchmark, then I would submit you have experienced little in the way of real training in your internal arts.

When someone grabs your lapel, sleeve, arm or wrist with the intent of not letting go, internal martial art or not, your clothing will suffer the consequences.

Come train with us. You will see that we are an "internal" art, but we train very "hard." :D

Gambarimasu.

If that is your benchmark, then I would submit you have experienced little in the way of real training in your internal arts. :rofl: interesting judgement, 'real training' my real training means that I don't pre judge peoples abilty and experience by comments on a message board. I study a traditional art in a traditional manner with a high level teacher. end of story. I have also trained in an 'external' art.....I have seen both sides....

Hi guys.

My post was a bit tongue in cheek. But if you need strong clothing for training, then SOMEONE is using muscular strength or force!

Also if you consider rooting and grounding have ANYTHING to do with muscular strength, then you have a serious misunderstanding of internal arts!! My internal art (and yes I have trained external arts) has a long history and I have a traditional teacher with a pure lineage who would refuse to continue teaching me at the very thought of strength or force being used in ANY situation!! If you want to experience a real internal martial art, (other than Taijiquan) try Yiquan (Dachengchuan) and find out the real meaning of internal arts!.

Sorry if I ruffled some feathers, it was unintentional.

Very best wishes

Maybe I'm just having an unpleasant day, but I am having difficulty accepting the responses here where people seem to think that their martial practices, internal or not, have absolutely no relation to the level of strength and fitness in their bodies...

A weak, unfit, pathetic specimen will, no matter how much thinking (yi) or extending of qi he does, not be able to apply a single technique of any nature.

The fallacy of the superiority of an IMAist based on qigong alone is epidemic. What do you think standing postures do? Only exercise your qi? Hardly. As you stand there, regardless of what posture it may be, your body develops strength and endurance to maintain that position. There it is, boys and girls, the development of physical strength to support the IMA technique.

In reference to my "real training" comment, what I meant to imply is that if you can wear a skimpy, silk taiji pajama outfit to class and never have it run a very serious risk of being ripped right off your body, then your opponent is certainly not trying to give you anything approximating a realistic encounter. When we practice chin na, at first only the technique is worked so little resistance is used while the movement is developed. However, at some point, significant resistance must be applied in order to discover whether the student in question can apply the technique against a determined opponent. Doing any less develops nothing more than a false sense of ability.

If you refer back to my comments upthread:

If four ounces of power are applied by a weakling, then the four ounces will be overcome by the 1000 pounds. If the four ounces have no strong stance, no strong root (both developed after strengthening the body through posture training, forms, standing, etc.) from which to originate, the 1000 pounds will roll right over the source of the four ounces...

and the comments made by Taijifan:

for instance my taijiquan teacher is a small lady she's about 5.2" and weighs less than 7 stone, but when she drops an arm on you, she puts you through the floor, she has no apparent muscles, doesn't exert any external strength, but she very strong in her root, and understanding of biomechanics

Strength in rooting will necessarily also relate to a person's ability to hold a static stance (at first) and later to maintain that root in motion. Neither is possible with weak legs. If legs are not weak, what are they? Strong. With what? The physical, muscular endurance necessary to hold said stance or motion stable. Taijifan's teacher may be old and small, but I bet her legs are like oak trees (not large, necessarily, just strong).

If you refer to Chufeng's comments upthread:

Brute strength is frowned upon...our strength comes from a relaxed body with a strong root (sound familiar?)...

Brute force is not what I am talking about. I am not referring to the grunting, laboring, heaving efforts of a weight lifter. However, I am saying that someone who only ever holds a stance for a few seconds at a time, or is unable to hold their arms out for any period of time, etc., will be completely unable to apply anything from any IMA, regardless of the amount of sitting qigong meditation they may have done...

All the qi in the world will not overcome crappy technique. The cause of most crappy technique? Physical inability to support it. What else could we call that physical inability? Weakness. The physical ability to support it would then be what? The opposite of weakness, which is (as we learned earlier) strength.

It is a myth that IMA do not use strength. We just seem to be confused about what kind of strength we are talking about. I also think that many IMA schools (as well as non-IMA schools) spend too much time allowing their training partners to get away with performing techniques. There are many schools wherein realistic attacks are used, but not many. When I was training in Japan, my senior student (a very large and strong former power lifter) would deliberately exert all the power he had in order to attack, to grab (in order to train chin na, etc.), etc., and while the soft movements of IMA training did overcome his attacks, without a certain degree of fitness in stance, limb strength, etc., the movement would have meant nothing. I did not out muscle him; couldn't have even if I tried. Technique beat him. However, some of our other students who were not physicall fit enough to be able to support the technique were completely unable to make the movements work. At all.

That is the strength I am talking about.

How does that relate to CLOTHING (which is what this thread was originally about)? Simple. Somebody big and strong grabs your t-shirt with a purpose, you try to escape, he will keep your shirt... :D

Hence, a distinct need for rugged clothing that will resist tearing and other damages.

Gambarimasu.

Maybe I'm just having an unpleasant day, but I am having difficulty accepting the responses here where people seem to think that their martial practices, internal or not, have absolutely no relation to the level of strength and fitness in their bodies... sorry to hear you are having an unpleasant day...but i don't think anyone has decreed that their martial pratice has nothing to do with the level of strength or fitness of their bodies.....as i said previously "looks like people have different definitions of strength, are you referning to strength built up through the mobiliser muscles or the training of the postural muscles or the strength of will power or character" of course we all require a certain amount of muscular strength otherwise we would be slopping around in a bucket unable to stand upright. Perhaps what would be a more accurate statment is the difference between using the mobilisers through tension rather than the postural muscles and body alignment...I haven't mentioned qi at all, simply body mechanics..........and I never said my teacher was old!:boing2:

I understand your reply, but you stated clearly that people who wear certain types of uniforms do so because they practice "external" martial arts. This is a gross error.

If a Taiji stylist put on, say, a karate uniform, would his/her art suddenly become "external?" Hardly.

What Yiliquan1 is saying is that in training, for instance, when your partner is told to grab your lapel and pull you towards himself, he should do so REALISTICALLY rather than play patty-cake. And if he does grab your lapel and give a good yank, he will own whatever is left of your T-shirt.
This is why we wear very rugged uniforms.

If you are thrown to the ground, your lightweight pants or T-shirt will eventually tear and become very trendy. To avoid such embarassment, we simply prefer a more rugged uniform.

We practice traditional Taijichua, Xingyi, and Bagua. You can't get much more internal than that. But we train until we're soaked with sweat. Training for application of postures/techniques and for self-defense is very realistic and rigorous. For senior students, the attacks are very real. No patty-cake.
Our uniforms have to be able to take the strain of being grabbed, yanked, thrown, and all the rest.

Yiliquan1 is also correct about the musculature having to be able to withstand the force emitted by one's own body. The muscles need not be large but they must become very strong (but also pliable).
Power is emitted through the body and the body must be able to withstand the reaction force it generates.

In any case, this thread started with a question about uniforms and I think we've all made good points and beaten this horse to death.

I understand your reply, but you stated clearly that people who wear certain types of uniforms do so because they practice "external" martial arts. This is a gross error. not exactly what I said...you said you needed a more robust uniform, fine thats your choice....but because karate is external it needs a more robust one...

No patty-cake. what is this?

Hi Guys,

Couldn't agree more that you need muscular strength in the IMA's. I don't think I ever said you didn't.

BUT you do not require to USE muscular strength in applications. And if someone has managed to grab your lapel, you have already lost the contest so there is little point in continuing. And no, you dont use mobiliser muscles in Zhan Zhuang, you train the stabilisers. That is where internal strength comes from. Transmitting the internal to the external without using strength is the tricky bit!!

Yes, we have gone a bit off topic but it is interesting to hear other opinions about the interpretation of "internal".

Very best wishes

East Winds,

You stated: "if someone has managed to grab your lapel, you have already lost the contest so there is little point in continuing."

No point in continuing? :confused:

If someone grabs me, they have given me permission to counter.
MANY ChinNa applications actually start from a grab...
I certainly will not toss my hands in the air and say "Oh well, I'm toast because he's grabbed my lapels...best just take my licks and have done with it."

No sir, I will respond in a different way, I assure you...
It may be an internal strike...it may be an external strike...
It may be a joint lock...it may be a spotting technique...
It may be (pick any number of other responses)...
but it won't be allowing him to kick my ass for free!

Now, on the philosophical side, I should have never been caught with my awareness down...I should have a voided the potential for conflict before it occurred...

:asian:
chufeng

Originally posted by East Winds

Couldn't agree more that you need muscular strength in the IMA's. I don't think I ever said you didn't.

Perhaps not in so many words, but how about when you said:

It sounds like you guys use a lot of strength in your training. Whatever happened to 4 ounces can defelct 1000 pounds? Yes I also do Chin Na and full contact sparring with applications, but strength is a definite no no.

And:

How can you execute Fa Jing using strength? It's an oxymoron! The mind is the commander and the body is subserviant to it. If you use strength then you are not practicing taijiquan. You may be doing something that looks like taijiquan, but it will only be an illiusion.

And:

Also if you consider rooting and grounding have ANYTHING to do with muscular strength, then you have a serious misunderstanding of internal arts!! My internal art (and yes I have trained external arts) has a long history and I have a traditional teacher with a pure lineage who would refuse to continue teaching me at the very thought of strength or force being used in ANY situation!!

That does seem to imply that you did not believe muscular strength had any relation whatsoever to IMA... :confused:

BUT you do not require to USE muscular strength in applications.

Again, I disagree. The Chinese terms are li (brute strength) and the often overused jing (refined strength, associated with the unification of body mechanics and qi), and maybe it is the semantics we are debating (English being a great technical language for some things, and not so appropriate for others). When I say muscular strength, I refer to the necessary support that the musculoskeletal system provides in the performance of any given martial application. When I say brute strength, I refer to the unrefined "out muscling" of one person by another, larger, stronger person. Perhaps we are both referring to the same thing, just having trouble getting to a common ground with the terminology...

And if someone has managed to grab your lapel, you have already lost the contest so there is little point in continuing.

While in a gunfight I would tend to agree with you, I would wonder just what hand to hand encounters you would think would start off somewhere other than within grabbing range? A huge number of self defense routines begin with the assumption that someone has tried to grab you in some fashion. If you make a "preemptive strike" by hitting the person before they have attempted an attack of some sort (and I'm not referring to striking them as they initiate a strike against you, but if you see someone suspicious and just lay into them in order to beat them to the punch), then you are the attacker, not the defender!

If somone has managed to grab your lapel, what would you do? Stand there and take the beating? I hope not...

And no, you dont use mobiliser muscles in Zhan Zhuang, you train the stabilisers. That is where internal strength comes from. Transmitting the internal to the external without using strength is the tricky bit!!

Interesting, though, that even "internal" strength stems from muscles, eh? Seems "internal" and "external" relate only to the application of muscular strength, not to muscular strength itself...

Gambarimasu.

Yiliquan1

Your quote

"Interesting, though, that even "internal" strength stems from muscles, eh? Seems "internal" and "external" relate only to the application of muscular strength, not to muscular strength itself..."

Obviously I have not been making myself clear. I thought that was exactly what I had been saying.
And if an opponent has grabbed your lapel.....Go on........have a guess at what you really need to practise! Incidentally, when did Chin Na become an internal art??

Sorry, you guys really need to get your act together.

Very best wishes

Mrs Hubris Nimby,

See what you started!!:D

Steam trains are a lot less bother. (Unless you step in front of one).:rofl:

Best wishes from Scotland

Originally posted by East Winds

"Interesting, though, that even "internal" strength stems from muscles, eh? Seems "internal" and "external" relate only to the application of muscular strength, not to muscular strength itself..."

Obviously I have not been making myself clear. I thought that was exactly what I had been saying.

Like I said, I think we have been saying the same things and debating the words being used.

And if an opponent has grabbed your label.....Have a guess at what you really need to practise!

Obviously, my long distance shooting skills!
:armed: :biggun: :mp5: :snipe: :tank:

Incidentally, when did Chin Na become an internal art??

When wasn't it? What makes it external or internal? (mind you, I write this with every intent for it to be taken with extreme sarcasm) :D

Sorry, you guys really need to get your act together.

Right up to this point I was in a friendly mood... Glad you think you are so superior in what you do that you can pass judgements like this...

Where do you get off making a comment like this? I'll reserve the flaming for later... I would hope you would explain yourself so we can retain a modicum of politeness in this discussion. :angry:

Gambarimasu.

Hubris wroteHere is the real critical issue in tai chi: shoes, socks, or bare feet. For some reason, the MA community shies away from confronting this question. Why? What are we afraid of? I don't want to be accused of , starting a flame war :flame: who would have thought it possible:)

Originally posted by East Winds

Obviously I have not been making myself clear. I thought that was exactly what I had been saying.

If that was "exactly what you had been saying," then there never would have been a misunderstanding...

Since several people read what you wrote and didn't "understand," it seems you were the one not communicating overly well...

Since several people read what you wrote and didn't "understand," it seems you were the one not communicating overly well... mmnnn does seem that the 'several people' are all your Yiliquan colleagues.....mmmnnn thats interesting
:wink1:

Taijifan -

Why, yes, as a matter of fact it does...

My teacher, Yilisifu, and my senior, Chufeng, have both posted trying to get clarification on what East Winds was trying to say. I was doing my best to be polite in my requests for further clarification of what he was trying to say, and even admitted that perhaps we were only bantering about in regards to the words being used...

Then he decided to get uppity.

Whatever. In my experience I have seen all too many fluffy IMAists use all sorts of neat words and cool terms and poorly understood foreign phrases to describe what they were doing. I think it was Einstein that said something along the lines of "If you can't teach it to an 8 year old, you don't really know it in the first place."

I am a simple person, a soldier by profession, and I like things to be expressed as simply as possible. If you can't reduce it down to a simple explanation that anyone can understand, then I think that person is holding onto their explanations without really understanding them in the first place.

When my teacher (40 years of experience and training, from lineage holders since that seems so important to so many people) and my senior (20+ years of experience and training and a nurse anesthetist by profession) are having difficulty understanding the gobbledeegook coming out of East Winds cyber-mouth, then somehow I think I am not on my own with this...

Had he left the nasty attitude at the door, we could have had a polite discussion. He decided to be other than courteous. Feel free to chime in in the thread I started regarding this topic elsewhere. We have hijacked this thread for too long.

Gambarimasu.

mmmnn well thats the beauty of the written word hastily typed.....it is open to interpretation or misunderstanding, and while it is easier to talk or demonstrate to clarify a point it is not so easy to wack it into a few words on a key board.....Whatever. In my experience I have seen all too many fluffy IMAists use all sorts of neat words and cool terms and poorly understood foreign phrases to describe what they were doing. yep I know what you mean, my first teahcer was like that...he tried to blind you with science to the extent that you couldn't remember the question you had asked.....it kept him in his mystical status that gave him some control....unfortunately when you do eventually see through it you feel very foolish for hanging of their every word.

I understood what East Winds was saying, but then we also come from the same art and I have also studied Yiquan so I understand the explanations used.....there is a certain type of muscular strength used in IMA, just that they don't rely on tension in the mobilisers but instead the mechanics of joint line ups and use of stabilisers instead......how did we get from shoes to here?;)

TaiJiFan,

This was my point in the weapons discussion...integrity of alignment and a relaxed (not limp) body allows for the uninterrupted flow of energy from the heel through the technique applied...add YI and you've got an internal strike...

Even though this has been a very convoluted thread, I do believe we are getting somewhere with it...

check the name calling (both sides) and let's move on.

:asian:
chufeng

East Winds,

Your comment: "Sorry, you guys really need to get your act together," indicates a superiority complex of some kind.

You posted: "Incidentally, when did Chin Na become an internal art??"

Who said it was???
Who said it wasn't???

Any technique can be construed as one or the other, depending on the person who executes the technique...can we move on now ar do you want to beat this dead horse until spring?

chufeng